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Post by midnight tea on Oct 19, 2024 7:31:53 GMT
It's a comment that would make sense if it wasn't brought at least 3 times already that the black guy they based their character on was a real, historical figure. Black samurai literally happened, and even Japanese historians weighted on that, given that the 'controversy' is mostly manufactured outside of Japan (in this specific regard). So, this particular aspect is about as historically accurate as those who shout about historical accuracy seemingly want it to be. HOW exactly history of that period and surrounding those characters is going to be interpreted for the AC universe remains to be seen (the game's not out yet), but that would be true regardless whether a character was foreign in origin or their ancestors have been living in Japan since fall of Atlantis (or whatever happened in AC universe), as Ubisoft is not a Japanese developer. I'd however keep underlining the irony that - however that story is going to be; it may as well be as historically anachronistic as your hypothetic example suggests - the black samurai living in Japan in that period is, in fact, what's accurate. I didn't dispute the existence of Yasuke. I know he existed but I admit I have no clue for how many years he was considered "active" as a samurai, how many recorded battles he fought in and all that. Still, he would have probably been an absolute rarity and exception and most common folk would have probably stood there gaping at him. My point was the overall sloppiness with which the setting is portrayed combined with the claim that research was done and the culture is being respected. I have to shake my head at strange insistence of it supposedly mattering how long he was an "active" samurai and how many battles he fought, given how little was needed to create badass white dude samurai or samurai-adjacent characters based only very lightly on historical figures, and sometimes even not bothering with history at all. While in the year of 2024 one should expect cultural sensitivity and respect shown towards any culture used as a setting for stories told by foreigners, I do have to wonder why is a title featuring black protag under such scrutiny, particularly in a series that is known from employing many fantastical elements AND when the one non-controversial, non-fantastical element in that chapter will actually be the black samurai
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Post by colfoley on Oct 19, 2024 7:37:13 GMT
I didn't dispute the existence of Yasuke. I know he existed but I admit I have no clue for how many years he was considered "active" as a samurai, how many recorded battles he fought in and all that. Still, he would have probably been an absolute rarity and exception and most common folk would have probably stood there gaping at him. My point was the overall sloppiness with which the setting is portrayed combined with the claim that research was done and the culture is being respected. I have to shake my head at strange insistence of it supposedly mattering how long he was an "active" samurai and how many battles he fought, given how little was needed to create badass white dude samurai or samurai-adjacent characters based only very lightly on historical figures, and sometimes even not bothering with history at all. While in the year of 2024 one should expect cultural sensitivity and respect shown towards any culture used as a setting for stories told by foreigners, I do have to wonder why is a title featuring black protag under such scrutiny, particularly in a series that is known from employing many fantastical elements AND when the one non-controversial, non-fantastical element in that chapter will actually be the black samurai I don't know fair or not people tend to get really persnickity about any percieved differences of character on any criteria imaginable. The only difference on what is acceptable tends to fall along political lines, usually.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Oct 19, 2024 7:41:57 GMT
My fav is definitely Michael Bryan. He's about to finish Trespasser in Monday and his reactions to lore reveals are the best. breebunn finished Trespasser today and declared the whole DA experience her favorite in 7 years of streaming, awww (and, of course, she's a Solasmancer, ha!) Ahh that moment was golden, thanks for the video link
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 19, 2024 7:54:29 GMT
I didn't dispute the existence of Yasuke. I know he existed but I admit I have no clue for how many years he was considered "active" as a samurai, how many recorded battles he fought in and all that. Still, he would have probably been an absolute rarity and exception and most common folk would have probably stood there gaping at him. My point was the overall sloppiness with which the setting is portrayed combined with the claim that research was done and the culture is being respected. I have to shake my head at strange insistence of it supposedly mattering how long he was an "active" samurai and how many battles he fought, given how little was needed to create badass white dude samurai or samurai-adjacent characters based only very lightly on historical figures, and sometimes even not bothering with history at all. While in the year of 2024 one should expect cultural sensitivity and respect shown towards any culture used as a setting for stories told by foreigners, I do have to wonder why is a title featuring black protag under such scrutiny, particularly in a series that is known from employing many fantastical elements AND when the one non-controversial, non-fantastical element in that chapter will actually be the black samurai I'm shaking my head how you keep coming back to Yasuke no matter how often I say that I'm referring to the overall poor treatment of the setting. For example I am pretty clueless about Japanese history and culture but even I know that a torii marks an entrance to a shrine, not some random village.
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Post by Elessar on Oct 19, 2024 7:58:38 GMT
He's 52. Not sure he is doing his former colleagues any favours with how he is acting though. Ergh. I have rarely, if ever, paid any attention to devs because ultimately their overinflated personal beliefs are irrelevant to me. I only ever appreciate their imagination and talents to build games I can (hopefully) enjoy and immerse myself in. But these last few months have been wild. Many of us just want an escape from this crazy world. Not for its "culture wars" to show up in our games as well- because what a way to break immersion. Just look at the dumpster-fire the devs at Ubisoft find themselves in. Instead of just focusing on a rich story and amazing game design, they decided to make obvious polarizing statements with characters in their games that ultimately not only made moderate gamers uncomfortable, but was incredibly insensitive to Japanese history and culture. When there was even the slightest pushback, instead of acknowledging it and making worthwhile changes, the devs devolved into accusing the gamers, *their audience*, for their own game's inept failures. It's not cute and Gaider, whom I only just now learned exists, gives off similar energy and it is a turn off for sure. Just because he may be right, doesn't mean he can be a condescending snob. ...Anyway, can't wait to play Veilguard and join the Shadow Dragons so I can end slavery in Tevinter with a bang- hells yeah Venatori watch out. Ubisoft has done nothing wrong (except maybe some minor snafu regarding some concept art or a stuette that is not even part of the game), Assassins Creed Shadows is victim of today's ridiculous outrage culture.
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Post by Elessar on Oct 19, 2024 8:08:33 GMT
You could at least use his name. Yasuke was a real person who actually existed. Whether Ubisoft should’ve used him as their protagonist can be debated, but this is fact. And he appears in other media too, such as Nioh, and even has a Netflix show. Yes, his name is Yasuke, and I was quickly summarizing why it turned into the heated controversy. He did exist, and his title was that of a samurai; but, no body can be sure exactly what role he played, if any at all, other than to be a souvenir prop for a powerful Japanese warlord since records of Yasuke are incredibly vague. Despite this, Ubisoft threw Yasuke into the spotlight rather than one of the thousands of other more historically recorded ethnic Japanese samurai making it appear he was chosen purely for his skin color. I'm not saying the haters are right- they're very problematic, but the devs are too when they choose to be inflammatory. At the end of the day, this whole woke vs anti-woke nonsense is ridiculous; both sides suck- can't please either side anymore and they ruin everything. Wokeness plays a role in an equal society- it benefits me as a gay dude, but it can be overdone and is often times unnecessary in video games. It's the story and gameplay that make a game good. Not whether the cast is diverse enough to get all the inclusivity boxes checked. You are clearly part of the "woke vs anti-woke nonsense", your arguments being problematic.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 19, 2024 8:09:33 GMT
Yes, his name is Yasuke, and I was quickly summarizing why it turned into the heated controversy. He did exist, and his title was that of a samurai; but, no body can be sure exactly what role he played, if any at all, other than to be a souvenir prop for a powerful Japanese warlord since records of Yasuke are incredibly vague. Despite this, Ubisoft threw Yasuke into the spotlight rather than one of the thousands of other more historically recorded ethnic Japanese samurai making it appear he was chosen purely for his skin color. I'm not saying the haters are right- they're very problematic, but the devs are too when they choose to be inflammatory. At the end of the day, this whole woke vs anti-woke nonsense is ridiculous; both sides suck- can't please either side anymore and they ruin everything. Wokeness plays a role in an equal society- it benefits me as a gay dude, but it can be overdone and is often times unnecessary in video games. It's the story and gameplay that make a game good. Not whether the cast is diverse enough to get all the inclusivity boxes checked. You are clearly part of the "woke vs anti-woke nonsense", your arguments being problematic. Not everyone can be so easily categorized. Not everyone has a side.
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Post by fredvdp on Oct 19, 2024 8:14:36 GMT
What are fellow pc players leaning towards for control hardware? I always defaulted to M+K for the Dragon Age series. Since the first two don't support controllers on PC, that's not really a choice, but I did try playing Inquisition with a controller, which played considerably worse than M+K. For Veilguard, I'm on the fence. The Ys-like dodge and parry mechanics might lend themselves better to controller, but the menus look tailor made for a mouse, even on consoles. Moving a cursor around with an analog stick is kind of bizarre to me. Maybe I'll play with a controller and switch to mouse on the menus. I also have to judge how well the game runs on my modest GPU (Radeon RX 6650 XT). If it doesn't perform to my liking, I might switch to PS5 and will have no choice but to play with a controller.
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Post by illuminated11 on Oct 19, 2024 8:33:54 GMT
Orientalism is bad, no one is arguing otherwise. Will the new AC game portray the East as inherently inferior to the occident? Will it “take it upon itself to take control of the Orient and take away from it any ability to speak for itself”? Will it be static, unalterable, incapable of defining itself? I have no idea. I don’t care about Assassin’s Creed. What I do care about is the implication that a black samurai as the main character indicates this MUST be the case.
Historical Fiction will almost always have historical inaccuracies. Shogun was a critically acclaimed show, and the main romantic relationship between the westerner and aristocratic Japanese woman never actually occurred in the letters the book was based on. Strangely, no one seems to care about this fact. Will these historical inaccuracies potentially verge on insult? Maybe. But it won’t be because they chose to use a black samurai.
Second, the idea that the writers chose xyz (someone black or queer or a woman) to fit current trends and sales. This argument is ludicrous to me, and borderline impossible to prove. History has shown we far more often get the opposite, where writers aren’t allowed to write about marginalized groups because their publisher won’t let them. It happened with Jo in Little Women; it happened with Zevran in Origins. It’s happened many more times before and since. We aren’t seeing more marginalized groups because of ‘woke’, we’re seeing more of them because it’s actually allowed even in popular public spheres.
And finally, tokenism. Tokenism has a very specific meaning: including a character as a checklist while doing nothing to develop them meaningfully for the narrative. Making your protagonist black is not tokenism, it’s the opposite of tokenism. Yasuke will (provided the writing is even halfway competent) have interiority, motivations, struggles and triumphs. Tokenism would be including a black character to die in the first five minutes of your horror film, or have a five second throwaway line at the end of a film about how the boy your main character had a crush on is actually gay and has a boyfriend. (That you never see and never get to see him be intimate with.)
P.S. you disagreeing with a dev’s creative choice and them talking about hateful subset of people does not mean they’re including you in that subset. If that’s not the reason for your issues than you have nothing to worry about and no reason to take offense. But those people are real, do exist, and are very loudly and rudely wrong on multiple accounts.
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Post by SofaJockey on Oct 19, 2024 9:02:42 GMT
We should probably wander back to topic in the next page or so, but I would like to make this observation. There is a section of the gaming community (let's call it 'anti-woke' for convenience but it's more complex than that), that if there is a perceived POC / female / gay element to a game, will hit it like a train. It's getting to the point where it's a struggle to find games that aren't 'woke' in some way. New IP is particularly vulnerable. Forspoken wasn't a bad game (not great either) but got such a kicking the studio closed. Star Wars Outlaws suffered from a double-whammy with 'woke Star Wars' on it's back as well. I don't think it's a bad game, just not 'Star Wars Jedi' good (and that had a male protagonist). I 'think' established IP like Assassin's Creed and Dragon Age can weather the storm and prevail if the games are actually good. Some of Veilguard's dramas (refocusing topic) have not come from BioWare. David Gaider's comments as a private citizen are misattributed to BioWare. Most of the videos raging about top scars pick on pleased content creators (like Eddie) and then blame BioWare for 'promoting it'. I'm unclear where all this goes, this gaming war can't continue indefinitely can it?
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 19, 2024 9:17:47 GMT
I have to shake my head at strange insistence of it supposedly mattering how long he was an "active" samurai and how many battles he fought, given how little was needed to create badass white dude samurai or samurai-adjacent characters based only very lightly on historical figures, and sometimes even not bothering with history at all. While in the year of 2024 one should expect cultural sensitivity and respect shown towards any culture used as a setting for stories told by foreigners, I do have to wonder why is a title featuring black protag under such scrutiny, particularly in a series that is known from employing many fantastical elements AND when the one non-controversial, non-fantastical element in that chapter will actually be the black samurai I'm shaking my head how you keep coming back to Yasuke no matter how often I say that I'm referring to the overall poor treatment of the setting. For example I am pretty clueless about Japanese history and culture but even I know that a torii marks an entrance to a shrine, not some random village. ...Which is a point I've already elaborated on and don't feel I should elaborate further.
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Oct 19, 2024 9:19:53 GMT
I'm bored: 1)- Who of the companions would be Rook's go-to for weedelf-root, do you think?2)- Biggest freak in the sheets?3)- Worst (Light)house-mate - most difficult/annoying to live with?4)- Best dresser.5)- Most likely to have a Glitterdust snorting problem.6)- The funniest.7)- Most likely to die in the first five minutes of a horror film.8)- Has the biggest d*ck.9)- Most likely to betray us.10)- Compare a companion to a dish or drink, and explain why.GO!
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Post by Elessar on Oct 19, 2024 9:21:33 GMT
You are clearly part of the "woke vs anti-woke nonsense", your arguments being problematic. Not everyone can be so easily categorized. Not everyone has a side. Just saying he's making use of some of the same "culture warriors" arguments.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 19, 2024 9:22:49 GMT
My fav is definitely Michael Bryan. He's about to finish Trespasser in Monday and his reactions to lore reveals are the best. breebunn finished Trespasser today and declared the whole DA experience her favorite in 7 years of streaming, awww (and, of course, she's a Solasmancer, ha!) Ahh that moment was golden, thanks for the video link You're welcome! I crack up basically every time I see it - must be all the 'wtf wtf wtf!' while being wrapped tightly in emotional support hoodie
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Oct 19, 2024 9:33:56 GMT
I'm bored: 1)- Who of the companions would be Rook's go-to for weedelf-root, do you think?Neve - she’s just too….chill. 2)- Biggest freak in the sheets?Lucanis. 3)- Worst (Light)house-mate - most difficult/annoying to live with?Bellara - she’ll never do the dishes 4)- Best dresser.Emmerich 5)- Most likely to have a Glitterdust snorting problem.Emmerich 6)- The funniest.Neve - see answer to question 1 7)- Most likely to die in the first five minutes of a horror film.Harding 8)- Has the biggest d*ck.Davrin 9)- Most likely to betray us.Bellara 10)- Compare a companion to a dish or drink, and explain why.You aren’t my supervisor GO!
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Post by jennica on Oct 19, 2024 9:35:26 GMT
I have to shake my head at strange insistence of it supposedly mattering how long he was an "active" samurai and how many battles he fought, given how little was needed to create badass white dude samurai or samurai-adjacent characters based only very lightly on historical figures, and sometimes even not bothering with history at all. While in the year of 2024 one should expect cultural sensitivity and respect shown towards any culture used as a setting for stories told by foreigners, I do have to wonder why is a title featuring black protag under such scrutiny, particularly in a series that is known from employing many fantastical elements AND when the one non-controversial, non-fantastical element in that chapter will actually be the black samurai I'm shaking my head how you keep coming back to Yasuke no matter how often I say that I'm referring to the overall poor treatment of the setting. For example I am pretty clueless about Japanese history and culture but even I know that a torii marks an entrance to a shrine, not some random village. Do you mean torii from gameplay video with Yasuke riding a horse? I'm not a histroian nor i'm from Japan, but there was a post on Reddit that talked about it. Basically, the way ropes are hung indicates that Yasuke approached torii from within rather than entered it. It's likely that he rode from the shrine and torii is an exit from mountain pass rather than an entrance to village.
This is not to say that Ubi didn't get some important thing wrong and hopefully they will fix them, but i'm not sure your example is a good one.
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Post by jennica on Oct 19, 2024 9:38:53 GMT
I'm bored: 8)- Has the biggest d*ck.Rook
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 19, 2024 9:56:56 GMT
I'm shaking my head how you keep coming back to Yasuke no matter how often I say that I'm referring to the overall poor treatment of the setting. For example I am pretty clueless about Japanese history and culture but even I know that a torii marks an entrance to a shrine, not some random village. Do you mean torii from gameplay video with Yasuke riding a horse? I'm not a histroian nor i'm from Japan, but there was a post on Reddit that talked about it. Basically, the way ropes are hung indicates that Yasuke approached torii from within rather than entered it. It's likely that he rode from the shrine and torii is an exit from mountain pass rather than an entrance to village.
This is not to say that Ubi didn't get some important thing wrong and hopefully they will fix them, but i'm not sure your example is a good one.
Oh, good one, thank you. That is of course absolutely possible.
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Post by Reznore on Oct 19, 2024 9:58:51 GMT
I'm bored: 1)- Who of the companions would be Rook's go-to for weedelf-root, do you think?
Harding, she dealt with the Inky and their elf root issues. And she has plenty of plants in her room. 2)- Biggest freak in the sheets?
Taash. Qunari are something else. Sten talking about qunari mating rituals, did it require an iron prybar? Iron Bull needed safe words. 3)- Worst (Light)house-mate - most difficult/annoying to live with?Bellara, probably goin to blow up half the lighthouse by accident, start to clean up, forget about it, go wander into the crossroad and get lost. 4)- Best dresser.
Neve. She can put whatever nonsense on her head, and make it work. I'm sure she uses blood magic for that. 5)- Most likely to have a Glitterdust snorting problem.Lucanis. Coffee addiction. Sure. 6)- The funniest.Hopefully Purple Rook will come to the rescue. They don't look like the funniest bunch to me. 7)- Most likely to die in the first five minutes of a horror film.It should be Harding, because she has the biggest boobs of the lot, and has fair hair and she's so cute. But she has enough common sense to save herself. So I'd go with Bellara. 8)- Has the biggest d*ck.Rook I will max that bulge. 9)- Most likely to betray us.
Solas. 10)- Compare a companion to a dish or drink, and explain why.Emmrich is like Durian fruit to me. His posture, his posh english accent, his lankiness, his spirit thingie, his concerned face, his death obsession I find it all quite repulsive. Maybe he will be an acquired taste. GO!
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Post by colfoley on Oct 19, 2024 9:59:32 GMT
We should probably wander back to topic in the next page or so, but I would like to make this observation. There is a section of the gaming community (let's call it 'anti-woke' for convenience but it's more complex than that), that if there is a perceived POC / female / gay element to a game, will hit it like a train. It's getting to the point where it's a struggle to find games that aren't 'woke' in some way. New IP is particularly vulnerable. Forspoken wasn't a bad game (not great either) but got such a kicking the studio closed. Star Wars Outlaws suffered from a double-whammy with 'woke Star Wars' on it's back as well. I don't think it's a bad game, just not 'Star Wars Jedi' good (and that had a male protagonist). I 'think' established IP like Assassin's Creed and Dragon Age can weather the storm and prevail if the games are actually good. Some of Veilguard's dramas (refocusing topic) have not come from BioWare. David Gaider's comments as a private citizen are misattributed to BioWare. Most of the videos raging about top scars pick on pleased content creators (like Eddie) and then blame BioWare for 'promoting it'. I'm unclear where all this goes, this gaming war can't continue indefinitely can it? Now to preface the one reason I personally detest the term 'Woke' is because both the ones who use it as a badge of honor and those who use it as an insult can't seem to provide an accurate and consistent definition of what it is. It is such a vague term that it really isn't useful in any constructive debate or criticism and when anyone wades into the muck of this particular 'culture war' one can't help but tripping all over themselves and getting muddy. That being said though this argument really is a pretty big mischaracterization of how many people behave in this argument. I know many of the 'anti woke' and at least I pay attention to their arguments and generally give them the benefit of the doubt when it is worth it, and many of them do not really complain about POC or women or LGBTQ members in these games or any other entertainment property. Despite the gaslighting from the 'woke' on the subject many of the people complaining about woke politics infiltrating these entertainment properties are long term fans of these entertaintainment properties. Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Dragon Age, Doctor Who, the list goes rather on. Entertainment properties well known for its representation in having women characters, POC characters, or even LGBT characters. And many of the people complaining about woke politics seem to have zero issue with such people being in these games or entertainment properties so the issue must be something else. What that something else is also pretty vague and undefined so it can be easy to make these mistakes but if these mistakes are made then it behooves us to point that out...IE David Gaider whatever his relationship is with BioWare. The further trouble of course is, and this admittedly is the fun part, given how charged the environment is genuine bigots can graft themselves onto the movement because everyone is just being pigeonheld and insults are flying around which tends to back people into corners and what not. Its most frustrating, and tiring. But I don't think its fair to paint anyone with a broad brush.
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Post by hookntackle on Oct 19, 2024 10:02:24 GMT
Duck's sake, 5 pages with this, seriously?
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Post by Reznore on Oct 19, 2024 10:09:13 GMT
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Post by illuminated11 on Oct 19, 2024 10:09:44 GMT
I’ll try not exacerbate this further, but to answer Colofey’s query:
The term “Woke” (/ˈwoʊk/ WOHK) is an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning the black community should stay “alert (awake) to racial prejudice and discrimination”.
It has since taken on much more fluid meaning in wider parlance.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 19, 2024 10:10:24 GMT
Already bought one but also tempted in case something happens.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 19, 2024 10:11:25 GMT
I’ll try not exacerbate this further, but to answer Colofey’s query: The term “Woke” (/ˈwoʊk/ WOHK) is an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning the black community should stay “alert (awake) to racial prejudice and discrimination”. It has since taken on much more fluid meaning in wider parlance. That was one of the most productive and honest posts I've seen on this issue in a long time.
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