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Post by colfoley on Aug 14, 2024 6:24:21 GMT
Speaking of things and right on schedule. Watching a BG III playthrough right now of one of my favorite YouTubeers to give him support etc and he ran into a problem which perfectly encapsulates the flaws of extreme player choice. He ran into this guy who goblins nearly tortured to death, healed him for info, and an option in the first line of dialogue? I am here to finish what they started! Attack. And like how utterly moronic. If i were shadowheart I'd be like 'dude I just wasted some healing magic on this guy screw this' and leave someone who is so stupidly evil. And like I get it, player choice. But video games don't have a limitless supply of resource. It's a small complaint but a writer had to waste their time and Larian had to waste their money and a programmer had to waste the data budget for the game all to accommodate a choice that could have been better spent on a far more sensible and nuanced. How... how is that a flaw?
I can't tell you how many times a game gave me a choice between telling a n NPC "Yeah, I'll help you if you tell/give me the thing I want" or "Fuck off, I hate you!", and then after I select the help option the game automatically assumes it's because I'm a good guy and locks me out of doing anything bad to the NPC, when what I wanted was to lie to get the info!
This BG3 situation you talk of is exactly what I want from my RP perspective, as it gives me more options to RP. It's hardly "moronic" to get what you wanted from the rack guy and then off him to ingratiate yourself with the goblins, in fact I'd say it's much more logical than just going "Die, person I need something from, I'm EVIL muahaha!".
A somewhat similar thing that happens in Bloodborne – and mind you, BB isn’t exactly a game of many RP opportunities – if you go through all the effort to befriend Djura and promise him you’ll spare the beasts in his area, making him non-hostile, and then go and start killing them anyways, he’ll acknowledge it and go ballistic on you again, as it should be. Now keep in mind said player actually didn't click said option so sequence of events. Player heals guy down to 1 HP... guy gets up...accidentally heals him again...goes into dialogue...the one option is to attack him...and then after talking the guy runs off. And this is a flaw because it makes no logical sense. If the guy had the option of being able to just say 'I am here to finish what they started' before healing him then that would be one thing, but I am pretty sure based on what the narrator was saying about the guy just moaning that wasn't an option. Or if the guy gave you info and your character could be like 'well that's a waste of time' stab both of which are quite legit, if evil, options, but to just senselessly murder the guy after healing him? To be fair knowing games wires might have gotten crossed somewhere but its still hillariliously, stupidly, evil.
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Post by theratpack55 on Aug 14, 2024 6:42:24 GMT
How... how is that a flaw?
I can't tell you how many times a game gave me a choice between telling a n NPC "Yeah, I'll help you if you tell/give me the thing I want" or "Fuck off, I hate you!", and then after I select the help option the game automatically assumes it's because I'm a good guy and locks me out of doing anything bad to the NPC, when what I wanted was to lie to get the info!
This BG3 situation you talk of is exactly what I want from my RP perspective, as it gives me more options to RP. It's hardly "moronic" to get what you wanted from the rack guy and then off him to ingratiate yourself with the goblins, in fact I'd say it's much more logical than just going "Die, person I need something from, I'm EVIL muahaha!".
A somewhat similar thing that happens in Bloodborne – and mind you, BB isn’t exactly a game of many RP opportunities – if you go through all the effort to befriend Djura and promise him you’ll spare the beasts in his area, making him non-hostile, and then go and start killing them anyways, he’ll acknowledge it and go ballistic on you again, as it should be. Now keep in mind said player actually didn't click said option so sequence of events. Player heals guy down to 1 HP... guy gets up...accidentally heals him again...goes into dialogue...the one option is to attack him...and then after talking the guy runs off. And this is a flaw because it makes no logical sense. If the guy had the option of being able to just say 'I am here to finish what they started' before healing him then that would be one thing, but I am pretty sure based on what the narrator was saying about the guy just moaning that wasn't an option. Or if the guy gave you info and your character could be like 'well that's a waste of time' stab both of which are quite legit, if evil, options, but to just senselessly murder the guy after healing him? To be fair knowing games wires might have gotten crossed somewhere but its still hillariliously, stupidly, evil. Honesty, I think I'd have to see what happened there to understand whether the situation made sense or not because I'm not sure I get what you mean.
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Post by fairdragon on Aug 14, 2024 8:20:59 GMT
In the QA they don't said when they are back only that they comeback. I look at the moment for the infos came after it. That make it clear that they comeback at the end. Hmm, do you mean the first GI article, the big 12 page one? I didn't read that one because of story spoilers so if it's mentioned there, I missed it. If it's explained in any of the other articles or in a series of questions answered on the Discord or on Twitter, if you remember, can you point me to it? No worries if you don't. I'll also mention that I didn't watch pretty much any of the community council people's videos (save maybe 2 or 3 more general ones from Ghil'dirthalen) to avoid possible story spoilers they might unknowingly give out and, from what I understand, the game has changed a lot from when they playtested it, anyway. I have look it up. And i can't find a 100% fit. So it can be a later answer from the dev at Discord and i don't find it yet or it is from a youtube Video i have watched. The nearest i get is from the QA: ...They comeback to save the world unless ...
And from The GI articel and companion short articel: ... They represent their factions... You need help to win against them...
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Post by river82 on Aug 14, 2024 8:22:21 GMT
but to just senselessly murder the guy after healing him? To be fair knowing games wires might have gotten crossed somewhere but its still hillariliously, stupidly, evil. Welcome to DnD where you CAN be perfectly logical and rational about things, but often people just choose wacky options because you can and it's fun As Grog said, cleric of evil god does evil things but ultimately it's a world people like to just have fun adventures in. Not everything is supposed to make sense and I think BG3 kinda captures part of what DnD a bit quirky I mean, the below skit captures what DnD is often like lol
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Post by fairdragon on Aug 14, 2024 8:36:03 GMT
I have honestly no idea. I don't remember ever talking to a gaming person who considered themselves part of those "modern audiences". Also, why the plural? Is there more than one and if so, what's the difference between them? It's probably just marketing speak though. I just hope it's not a nice sounding way of saying "we're ditching our old fan base and are going for a new one". I've heard a number of differing answers from people I've asked in other media circles. In no order, a list of responses I've been given was the following: - Appealing to people who haven't played the studios prior games multiple times over, or have played them at all. - Appealing to people who enjoy specific video game titles, such as Call of Duty, Fornite, Overwatch, etc. Basically, games commonly played by younger audiences. - Appealing to younger audiences - Appealing "Twitter" People - Making considerations for controller inputs and UI/visual experience that today's audience is more familiar with. - Appealing to people who've played contemporary games (i.e. games that have released within the last 5-7 years). It's been all over the place. Sometimes I really had to get people to nail down what they mean specifically. I did this because some responses were, "it means a game that is not for me." Others would be more contentious, such as, "games that were made by DEI devs." In my experience it is a marketing word that is used to say: This game, movie or music followed the newest trend and try to reach a bigger adience. They can mean a younger adience or a more average taste adience. Everyone have a different answer to it. And that is why it can work, it also can fail tremendously. But what is right is that you need to adapted to the new circumstances.
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Aug 14, 2024 8:39:55 GMT
We're just curious minds, thirsting for knowledge. New info. For "a learned child is a blessing upon his parents and onto the Maker" - so damn Biower, why are you keeping us from learning more about the game? 😡
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Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 14, 2024 8:43:03 GMT
We're just curious minds, thirsting for knowledge. New info. For "a learned child is a blessing upon his parents and onto the Maker" - so damn Biower, why are you keeping us from learning more about the game? 😡 What does "Biower" mean?
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 14, 2024 8:47:02 GMT
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Post by Grog Muffins on Aug 14, 2024 8:55:00 GMT
Hmm, do you mean the first GI article, the big 12 page one? I didn't read that one because of story spoilers so if it's mentioned there, I missed it. If it's explained in any of the other articles or in a series of questions answered on the Discord or on Twitter, if you remember, can you point me to it? No worries if you don't. I'll also mention that I didn't watch pretty much any of the community council people's videos (save maybe 2 or 3 more general ones from Ghil'dirthalen) to avoid possible story spoilers they might unknowingly give out and, from what I understand, the game has changed a lot from when they playtested it, anyway. I have look it up. And i can't find a 100% fit. So it can be a later answer from the dev at Discord and i don't find it yet or it is from a youtube Video i have watched. The nearest i get is from the QA: ...They comeback to save the world unless ...
And from The GI articel and companion short articel: ... They represent their factions... You need help to win against them...
Oh hey thanks for trying to look it up. No worries that you can't find a 100% fit, I accepted that there are a good number of things that are a wait and see situation, whether that comes as part of whatever next marketing push they make or when the game is out.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 14, 2024 9:22:22 GMT
but to just senselessly murder the guy after healing him? To be fair knowing games wires might have gotten crossed somewhere but its still hillariliously, stupidly, evil. Welcome to DnD where you CAN be perfectly logical and rational about things, but often people just choose wacky options because you can and it's fun As Grog said, cleric of evil god does evil things but ultimately it's a world people like to just have fun adventures in. Not everything is supposed to make sense and I think BG3 kinda captures part of what DnD a bit quirky I mean, the below skit captures what DnD is often like lol viva is always a win.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 14, 2024 9:24:20 GMT
It's a small complaint but a writer had to waste their time and Larian had to waste their money and a programmer had to waste the data budget for the game all to accommodate a choice that could have been better spent on a far more sensible and nuanced. This always annoys me slightly when people just want to be deliberately, obviously evil and it seems so stupid because usually people don't see themselves as evil and often (like Solas) justify their actions as doing something that will ultimately result in something good, even though they know it can be seen by others as morally reprehensible (hence I assume Solas constantly apologising to a friendly Inquisitor and trying to justify himself). In other words the ends justify the means. Then there are other people (particularly in D&D) that are deliberately doing evil acts but in an intelligent way so they are not obviously evil to those around them. An example of this would be Sarevok in Baldurs Gate managing to make all the leading figures in the city, and particularly numerous ladies, think he is wonderful, when behind the scenes he is plotting their downfall. I like intelligent villains as it is far more satisfying outwitting them than moronically stupid ones. The same goes for the actions of the protagonist. Lets stab the person 'cos that's what evil people do. It is why I feel Corypheus had wasted potential as an antagonist because he genuinely seemed to believe that people were worshiping a false god, since he knew the truth about the whole Black City thing and the throne there was empty when they arrived, so where was the Maker? Then we hardly saw anything of him and instead had the cardboard cut out obviously evil minions like Florianne and Erimond to deal with. However, Calpernia was another antagonist with definite potential and luckily they didn't kill her off but left her possible death ambiguous even in the few cases where players didn't choose a different outcome, so possibly she will turn up again to give us an idea whether or not we made the right decision over her fate.
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 14, 2024 9:25:37 GMT
I understand that eventually they will show more. I just don't get why they can't simply say when exactely they'll show more. "Somewhere in August" just doesn't cut it. And i'm not even on the fence about bying the game, but a lot of people are. that is fair. When they announced the road map I assumed it was going to be for the entire month roughly and when they didn't was a bit disappointing. Understandable since they didn't say, but still.
Well, when Bio has nothing to say or have internal difficulties which then the studio has really nothing to say to the public.
Here is my thinking: Busche did publicly say they would show one additional demo with the mage. If late Oct is the launch date, there is room for just one more trailer... the mage trailer. Methinks the mage trailer is proving to be a wee bit challenging. How is Busche presenting the combat mage to the world? This "high action/min" crap may show the mage in unfavourable light. Too much melee and why bother with the mage class. Half & half? then the class is neither fish nor fowl.... probably more fish than fowl. Too much mage? nope... that's not in the cards. The latter is where the problem raises its sticky head as this prevents the mage from being the centre of attention. A negative reaction is something Bio wants to avoid. Hey, wait! What about the ranger class?
Analyzing the future mage demo is what I'll be doing to see how effective the comanions are in a fight. In the gameplay demo, they did squat. Don't get confused with the cinematics of the demo. In it, Neve lifted her right hand ( at Baldy's location) with the scepter and the demon behind her went poof! vs all the "hard fighting" that Varric and Lace did earlier, from the periphery.
And, no Road Map survives in contact with poor game design ..... these pesky bugs are like zombies.... keep raising the ugly faces.
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 14, 2024 9:31:35 GMT
they already dropped a roadmap and used that exact terminology for their initial marketing blitz in June. It's unusual but there is precedent for it now and it's not BioWare's fault tech radar doesn't pay attention. Yet, dropping a roadmap with like two weeks until the month is over doesn't make a lot of sense. You might as well just reveal the thing. The only thing a roadmap would make sense is if it's from metaphorical now to release date.
Unless launch date is in November?
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 14, 2024 9:33:28 GMT
Road map tommorow confirmed? Roadmap to the roadmap...?
Oh, wow Hrungr... that's so low.........
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Post by colfoley on Aug 14, 2024 10:22:09 GMT
that is fair. When they announced the road map I assumed it was going to be for the entire month roughly and when they didn't was a bit disappointing. Understandable since they didn't say, but still.
Well, when Bio has nothing to say or have internal difficulties which then the studio has really nothing to say to the public.
Here is my thinking: Busche did publicly say they would show one additional demo with the mage. If late Oct is the launch date, there is room for just one more trailer... the mage trailer. Methinks the mage trailer is proving to be a wee bit challenging. How is Busche presenting the combat mage to the world? This "high action/min" crap may show the mage in unfavourable light. Too much melee and why bother with the mage class. Half & half? then the class is neither fish nor fowl.... probably more fish than fowl. Too much mage? nope... that's not in the cards. The latter is where the problem raises its sticky head as this prevents the mage from being the centre of attention. A negative reaction is something Bio wants to avoid. Hey, wait! What about the ranger class?
Analyzing the future mage demo is what I'll be doing to see how effective the comanions are in a fight. In the gameplay demo, they did squat. Don't get confused with the cinematics of the demo. In it, Neve lifted her right hand ( at Baldy's location) with the scepter and the demon behind her went poof! vs all the "hard fighting" that Varric and Lace did earlier, from the periphery.
And, no Road Map survives in contact with poor game design ..... these pesky bugs are like zombies.... keep raising the ugly faces.
Now from a marketing perspective smart money says at least late October...if not November. That gives them three to four months to do anything they want to, even releasing a trailer a month gives them the option for three to four. I doubt they are going to do that I think we're basically going to get two more, maybe, trailers. As for the demos are concerned I see three ways to go about this. 1. Do one demo video featuring all three classes in mid to high level gameplay. 2. Give one video for each class. 3. Rely on outside parties and journalists (like IGN) to release those videos. And well they also promised some sort of CC showcase and I think...ah yes maybe featuring Assan later as well. Even with all of that its five videos right there that they can do, which can all theoretically even take place over a week or two. As I said really expect marketing to kick in right around launch happens, maybe even right after it hits Gold. On the mage combat front a rather long conversation on this has happened over in the controversy combat thread thing. And well I do doubt the conclusion you have drawn. Its not really about mage combat or not mage combat or melee or not just that, theoretically anyways, you just have to make your decisions a lot faster or combat encounters will get over a lot faster. Spells or not.
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Post by jennica on Aug 14, 2024 10:50:09 GMT
If late Oct is the launch date, there is room for just one more trailer... the mage trailer
What do you mean by that? Bioware can release however much trailers they want.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 14, 2024 10:51:35 GMT
If late Oct is the launch date, there is room for just one more trailer... the mage trailer What do you mean by that? Bioware can release however much trailers they want. somehow you meant to quote Sartoz and got me.
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Post by jennica on Aug 14, 2024 10:53:28 GMT
What do you mean by that? Bioware can release however much trailers they want. somehow you meant to quote Sartoz and got me. Fixed it. I have no idea how that happend lol.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Aug 14, 2024 11:05:10 GMT
which is how marketing basically works. A lot of information regardless of genre is basically regurgitated in interviews/ articles and a lot of movie teasers keep showing off the same scenes over and over. Slowly you'll get expansion and a drip feed of new info but until major tent poles get released nothing will really change. And honestly prefer that, gotta leave some mystery for the game. They are, by definition, not reveals then. You rdefinition of a revea land their definition coul dwell be differn tthen w ecan only mak edo wit hwha tthe ytell o rshow us regardles of how we might feel.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Aug 14, 2024 11:16:31 GMT
If late Oct is the launch date, there is room for just one more trailer... the mage trailer
What do you mean by that? Bioware can release however much trailers they want. Yeah I could see us getting at least 4 or 5 at some point between nowand launch. Obvoiusl ythe launch trailer itself will be one bu tthat'll be the on ewe ge tthe week the gam ecomes out hence the nam eLaunch Trailer. I'd imagin eew'll ge ton efo reach of the clases 1 mage ! Rogue ! Warrior and 1 or 2 trailer based on our companions that will accompany us on this journey
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Post by colfoley on Aug 14, 2024 11:19:45 GMT
Speaking of that I actually remembered I really want a trailer to focus on Rook like the 'Hero of Thedas' trailer. Rook gotta get some love before launch I swear.
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Post by fairdragon on Aug 14, 2024 12:47:43 GMT
If late Oct is the launch date, there is room for just one more trailer... the mage trailer. I would argue their are room for 2 trailer. 1 in the september and 1 in the October. You could also give one in the August, if you really want. When you start marketing you should show your fans something every month + the articels and talks. They are to quiet since July. Maybe because they aren't ready to show many things yet, but than i would argue start the marketing later.
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Jul 30, 2020 17:14:13 GMT
July 2020
fairdragon
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
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Post by fairdragon on Aug 14, 2024 12:55:17 GMT
How is Busche presenting the combat mage to the world? This "high action/min" crap may show the mage in unfavourable light. Too much melee and why bother with the mage class. Half & half? then the class is neither fish nor fowl.... probably more fish than fowl. Too much mage? nope... that's not in the cards. I would make 2 trailer. 1 showing mage range with the spells you don't see as Ghil call it. And the other showing mage melee. Both don't need to be long. But i would show them separately. Also showing a little bit of warrior gameplay to see the different from the other melee options. And i don't think it is difficult, if the combat works as i think it does.
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IllustriousT
N3
*drinking*
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 539 Likes: 1,340
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218
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Sept 23, 2024 3:02:37 GMT
1,340
IllustriousT
*drinking*
539
August 2016
illustrioust
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by IllustriousT on Aug 14, 2024 13:35:23 GMT
Reading this article on the strike: www.thegamer.com/sag-aftra-gaming-strike-explained-ai-protections-jennifer-hale-yuri-lowenthal/It mentions that Veilguard's marketing has been disrupted. "However, the strike does extend to any kind of promotion for struck work, even if it has been in development for some time. In practice, this interrupted Dragon Age: The Veilguard’s marketing campaign, as it only revealed its cast days before many of the actors had to stop promoting the game" On why information has been slow. Possibly.
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our_lady_of_darkness
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 247 Likes: 574
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Mar 23, 2017 21:52:34 GMT
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our_lady_of_darkness
247
Aug 11, 2016 14:01:28 GMT
August 2016
ourladyofdarkness
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by our_lady_of_darkness on Aug 14, 2024 14:17:09 GMT
Reading this article on the strike: www.thegamer.com/sag-aftra-gaming-strike-explained-ai-protections-jennifer-hale-yuri-lowenthal/It mentions that Veilguard's marketing has been disrupted. "However, the strike does extend to any kind of promotion for struck work, even if it has been in development for some time. In practice, this interrupted Dragon Age: The Veilguard’s marketing campaign, as it only revealed its cast days before many of the actors had to stop promoting the game" On why information has been slow. Possibly. This makes a lot of sense, if the actors were planned to be one of the central elements of the marketing campaign.
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