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Post by Solas on Feb 19, 2022 0:26:28 GMT
Jeff Grubb @jeffgrubb A bit of a game of telephone here, but I definitely meant to say it's "at least 18 months away" not "within the next 18 months."
Jeff Grubb @jeffgrubb I'm pretty sure I did say "at least 18 months away" on GrubbSnax. But I talk fast and off the cuff *a lot,* so this is bound to happen.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2022 0:43:22 GMT
I’m confused at what you’re referring to here? Meaning I hope they'll have enough people in supporting DA4 also, while having in tracks parallel for both continuation of DA and finalizing of ME5/MENext. Ah. In that case I hope not. Best case scenario is they immediately stop supporting DA4 and focus on good ones.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Feb 19, 2022 0:55:49 GMT
If true, and give a year for post-launch support, it’ll be 2025 when they start working on hopefully a good Dragon Age game again. You realize a potential DA5 is not likely to have the Inquisitor as the main protagonist, especially if we again have a new protagonist in DA4? I don't think there is much if any hope of a good DA game for you at this point.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2022 0:58:00 GMT
If true, and give a year for post-launch support, it’ll be 2025 when they start working on hopefully a good Dragon Age game again. You realize a potential DA5 is not likely to have the Inquisitor as the main protagonist, especially if we again have a new protagonist in DA4? I don't think there is much if any hope of a good DA game for you at this point. Oh I know. But it also won’t be dealing with any of the plots that were set up only to be thrown away for this one either. It’ll be a clean slate, like what DA4 should’ve been. Hopefully with good locations too like Antiva (I know DA4 will waste it but let me hope).
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Post by githcheater on Feb 19, 2022 1:32:15 GMT
Fortunately Anthem and the focus on live service is dead or at least in hibernation.
First Anthem booted Andromeda to the defunct Montreal studio ... and Andromeda spiraled into developmental hell ... Then the DA4 team came to the rescue in 2016 or so to get Andromeda released in mid-2017.
Second Joplin was nixed at the end of 2017, and the DA4 team was sentenced to rescue the long floundering Anthem which finally released in 2019.
Third ... then COVID hit.
Fourth ... EA finally gave up on forcing a square peg (DA4) into a round hole (live service multiplayer) in late 2021.
It all adds up to a wasted void of at least five years.
If EA ditches Frostbite for future Bioware games, perhaps ME5 and DA5 will only have three year development cycles, and DA could possibly release in 2030 after ME5 releases in 2027. LOL
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 19, 2022 1:49:15 GMT
Sean Obrigewitch @shrimpbutch (Senior Environment Artist) I haven't posted in a long while, but after little over a decade at #BioWare. February 1st was sadly my last day. I have decided to take some time off and pursue a new opportunity; that I am extremely excited about! More info soon! #Varric #5Year #Wrex #10Year
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 19, 2022 1:57:57 GMT
A generous DA fan gifted this transcript of Jeff Grubb's recent podcast:
Here's what he had to say about DA & DA4...
"Let's touch on Dragon Age. This is something that people ask about a lot and I think in recent weeks someone said, hey, is there a chance of a Dragon Age Legendary Edition, a Dragon Age trilogy, similar to the Mass Effect Legendary Edition? And I think I answered, well, they probably wouldn't do that for a couple reasons. For one, the games aren't as linked as the Mass Effect Trilogy is, where it's one complete story. Also, they move around from engine to engine. I think like, Unreal Engine at some point, maybe, were the early [DA] games on Unreal? I don't remember. But I know that the later game was on Frostbite and that was an engine change. So there's not like this obvious path of, okay, we're gonna make these improvements to Unreal that we can apply to all three of these games at once. They would have to give each game individual attention and that creates extra work for this thing that isn't one big, necessarily, cohesive story. I looked into it and yeah, Dragon Age Legendary Edition is, there's no plans for that still. And those reasons seem to be the case, where it made a lot of sense for Mass Effect, it got a lot of goodwill with Mass Effect, but now, to go put that same effort into Dragon Age, they're not gonna do that, they're just gonna focus on Dragon Age 4.
And that brings us to Dragon Age 4 which I've heard is in very good shape. I think that there was a lot of concerns around this game because, like, what is happening in a lot of studios, there was some key talent that left and stuff like that, I think a Creative Director left, but we are in that environment like I've said a million times now, where key people at games studios are gonna leave because there's a million opportunities for them and they're gonna try to get those right now while the getting is good, and so games are just gonna have to continue with these key pieces leaving. And the word is that Dragon Age 4 is in very good shape, with all that stuff in mind. Now, "very good shape" for a video game in development means, yeah, there's problems, and there's headaches, and making games is very hard, and everyone looks around and says 'hey, making games is hard right?', and everyone looks at each other and says 'yeah this is tough', but it's the normal sort of, making video games is really hard-sorta thing that they're dealing with. And overall, when they look at where they're supposed to be at, they are hitting their milestones, they are hitting where they're supposed to be, and the game is on schedule. Now, what is that schedule? When is that game - if you've been watching this show for quite some time you are fully aware not to expect that game this year. It is still at least eighteen months out from today. So not early 2023, maybe late 2023, maybe. Like that seems to be sorta, the earliest you can begin to expect it. The second half of 2023 is kind of where we're looking at, but even that seems y'know, pretty aggressive, but that's the earliest time frame. So Dragon Age, in good shape, but they aren't rushing it out, they aren't super deep in development to the point where it could come out later this year. But also, eighteen months is not that long in the grand scheme of things, like, if you think about it, like, y'know, eighteen months ago is kind of right around the time we were talking about Mass Effect Legendary Edition and then we got that like almost a year later after I started talking about it. So time will fly by and before you know it we'll be at Dragon Age 4. So if that's the game you're waiting for, well, it's on it's way."
Also, the Q&A touched a little on Mass Effect...
"'With the time frame you're saying for Dragon Age 4, is the New Mass Effect anything more than that teaser?’ [that was submitted question from a show viewer]
Not really, it's mostly that teaser. It's in pre-production, there are artists who are dedicated to Mass Effect coming up with ideas, there's definitely people building out concepts for what the game could be, but it's pre-production. It's pre-production for Mass Effect still. It'll be in a situation where, once Dragon Age 4 is done, and it gets its updates, the team will be ready to quickly move into actual production of Mass Effect, but don't consider it in anything but pre-production until then."
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2022 2:14:18 GMT
That’s worse news than I thought.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 19, 2022 7:04:17 GMT
Fortunately Anthem and the focus on live service is dead or at least in hibernation. First Anthem booted Andromeda to the defunct Montreal studio ... and Andromeda spiraled into developmental hell ... Then the DA4 team came to the rescue in 2016 or so to get Andromeda released in mid-2017. Second Joplin was nixed at the end of 2017, and the DA4 team was sentenced to rescue the long floundering Anthem which finally released in 2019. Third ... then COVID hit. Fourth ... EA finally gave up on forcing a square peg (DA4) into a round hole (live service multiplayer) in late 2021. It all adds up to a wasted void of at least five years. If EA ditches Frostbite for future Bioware games, perhaps ME5 and DA5 will only have three year development cycles, and DA could possibly release in 2030 after ME5 releases in 2027. LOL I think Frostbite is going to be a BioWare decision and if they think it will actually make an improvement. I will remain skeptical that they are going to change engines even with that one job posting that we don't know what it is for exactly for their new GM is pretty much a penny pincher from what I have read from different posts since his appointment to that position. I think if BioWare ditches Frostbite the development window is going to be longer for they are going to have the exact same problems that they had with their last three games. Where each team was learning the game engine (or new elements) on their own with very little collaboration between Edmonton and Montreal (at least that is what I took from Mark Darrah in one of his videos).
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 19, 2022 7:05:21 GMT
Does Jeff Grubb have any verifiable sources to backup his claims or is this just another clickbait guesstimate? Does the guy who first broke the news about ME:LE and the Dead Space remake have any verifiable sources...
Nah. Totes not.
I cannot give him credit for the Legendary Edition, because he made the claim about it so many times and eventually a broken clock is eventually correct.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 19, 2022 10:28:29 GMT
I think if BioWare ditches Frostbite the development window is going to be longer for they are going to have the exact same problems that they had with their last three games. Except hasn't already been hinted that they are moving away from Frostbite for the next Mass Effect game? So presumably the Dragon Age team could learn from the ME team if they end up using the same engine, which would make more sense than DA continuing to use Frostbite. Swapping to Frostbite for DAI extended the development time between games from two years to three years and some of that was also down to incorporating a multi-player element. It also involved ditching the expansion to DA2, the Exalted March, so everyone could focus on DAI. In fact it would seem that DA2 was rushed because they were under pressure to get it out of the door. So, since DAI was apparently already in pre-production whilst they were working on DA2, it might be fair to assume that DA2's shortcomings were the result of a rushed development cycle and would have benefited from an extra year in production. That said, even if DAI really had a 4 year development time, that means by the time DA4 is released it will have been in development for over twice as long as between previous games. The likely reasons for this have been documented but some of them are surely unique to this development cycle? For example, if Joplin hadn't been ditched in 2017 we would likely already have DA4. Therefore, is it not reasonable to assume that if DA4 is a success and the studio move forward with the franchise, next time it will not be 10 years between one game and the next, even with a new engine?
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Post by Fredward on Feb 19, 2022 13:19:48 GMT
Wasn't even busy with undergrad when DAI came out and now I'll (hopefully) be busy with my PhD when DA4 releases looooool.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 19, 2022 13:24:23 GMT
I think if BioWare ditches Frostbite the development window is going to be longer for they are going to have the exact same problems that they had with their last three games. Except hasn't already been hinted that they are moving away from Frostbite for the next Mass Effect game? So presumably the Dragon Age team could learn from the ME team if they end up using the same engine, which would make more sense than DA continuing to use Frostbite. If I remember correctly, the only thing that has been said is they don't rule out anything, including engine swap. That is far away from actually hinting that they are moving away from Frostbite - not to mention that we don't know what this new ME will be, given that we now know they're at early pre-production. It has extended DAI development, because at the time Frostbite has lacked any RPG modules. Like, they've had to build dialogue system or riding quadrupeds from ground up, etc. And while I have no idea how easy it is to create games like DA today compared to then, I'm pretty sure Frostbite is NOT in the same spot it was prior to 2014 and Bioware already has experience working on the engine. I mean, unless there are some surprises here and it turns out DA4 will be a non-Frostbite title or whatever, the latest news make it seem like the Frostbite ain't that big of an obstacle, DA is in a good spot developmentally and most issues they have now are related to game development being hard even at the best of times. Obviously there were problems that were entirely separate from internal issues within the DA team itself, never mind what has happened lately and keeps happening still around the world...
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Post by GalentheYounger on Feb 19, 2022 15:25:51 GMT
Wasn't even busy with undergrad when DAI came out and now I'll (hopefully) be busy with my PhD when DA4 releases looooool. When I first played dragon age inquisition, I was still in high school, unsure of where I would even DO undergrad, or what I would do with my life. When DA4 drops, I'll be a second year medical student. C R A Z Y how long it has been between games. I feel like by the time DA5 drops I'll be in my thirties and married with children LOL. Good luck with the PhD!!!!! Research rox!
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 19, 2022 16:18:58 GMT
I think if BioWare ditches Frostbite the development window is going to be longer for they are going to have the exact same problems that they had with their last three games. Except hasn't already been hinted that they are moving away from Frostbite for the next Mass Effect game? So presumably the Dragon Age team could learn from the ME team if they end up using the same engine, which would make more sense than DA continuing to use Frostbite. Swapping to Frostbite for DAI extended the development time between games from two years to three years and some of that was also down to incorporating a multi-player element. It also involved ditching the expansion to DA2, the Exalted March, so everyone could focus on DAI. In fact it would seem that DA2 was rushed because they were under pressure to get it out of the door. So, since DAI was apparently already in pre-production whilst they were working on DA2, it might be fair to assume that DA2's shortcomings were the result of a rushed development cycle and would have benefited from an extra year in production. That said, even if DAI really had a 4 year development time, that means by the time DA4 is released it will have been in development for over twice as long as between previous games. The likely reasons for this have been documented but some of them are surely unique to this development cycle? For example, if Joplin hadn't been ditched in 2017 we would likely already have DA4. Therefore, is it not reasonable to assume that if DA4 is a success and the studio move forward with the franchise, next time it will not be 10 years between one game and the next, even with a new engine? No it hasn't. Its people reading into statements that has been made, such as posted before me that all options are open. The only real evidence that they have one or two positions for people with Unreal experience and that still doesn't mean the main game will be changing engines. I forget who said it and it might have even been Mark Darrah on his YouTube channel. The reason for the rush for Dragon Age 2 was that EA had a hole in their schedule and pushed Dragon Age 2 into it. It was a crunch culture game since the entire game was done during a crunch window. There could be any number of reasons why they cancelled Exalted March included just not enough copies of Dragon Age 2 sold to justify it or development was taking too long for the projected sales of the expansion. Dragon Age: Origins was in development for six years, it has been called a development hell game because of that so I am not sure how Dragon Age: Inquisition was in development longer. Mass Effect 3 to me shows the benefit of not switching engines and building on the game from before since they were able to reuse a lot of the assets and code from Mass Effect 2. As far as time it was more of a response that it would "only take three years" to make the next games and that doesn't mean it will be true. As far at the 10 year mark that isn't what I was referring to, I was referring to the statement that it would only take three years to make the next games because switching to Unreal means it will take a year less to make then if made on Frostbite.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 19, 2022 17:18:01 GMT
Frostbite is NOT in the same spot it was prior to 2014 and Bioware already has experience working on the engine. Yes, that was my whole point. the latest news make it seem like the Frostbite ain't that big of an obstacle, I wasn't saying Frostbite is an obstacle for getting DA4 out on schedule. I was talking about the possibility of a different engine for DA5, should it ever come to pass, and how that might impact on the length of time between games. There could be any number of reasons why they cancelled Exalted March included just not enough copies of Dragon Age 2 sold to justify it or development was taking too long for the projected sales of the expansion. I'm pretty sure David Gaider said the reason it was cancelled was so they could concentrate on DAI, which is why elements of the plot of Exalted March ended up in DAI because they needed to tie off those plot elements, particularly the mage/Templar war. Let's face it, he even had to write a novel to explain the 2 year time gap between the end of DA2 and the start of the conflict, which was implied to have begun straight after the events of DA2. He has made no secret of the fact that he was extremely upset when they ditched the expansion. Dragon Age: Origins was in development for six years, it has been called a development hell game because of that so I am not sure how Dragon Age: Inquisition was in development longer. I don't recall suggesting that DAI was in production for longer than DAO. As the latter was the first in the franchise and everything, including the game world itself, had to be started from scratch, it is hardly surprising it took longer than DAI. I was referring to the statement that it would only take three years to make the next games because switching to Unreal means it will take a year less to make then if made on Frostbite. I'm confused. Why would switching to a different engine mean it would take less time to make than if they stuck with the engine they are currently using?
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 19, 2022 18:07:51 GMT
Dragon Age: Origins was in development for six years, it has been called a development hell game because of that so I am not sure how Dragon Age: Inquisition was in development longer. I don't recall suggesting that DAI was in production for longer than DAO. As the latter was the first in the franchise and everything, including the game world itself, had to be started from scratch, it is hardly surprising it took longer than DAI. I was referring to the statement that it would only take three years to make the next games because switching to Unreal means it will take a year less to make then if made on Frostbite. I'm confused. Why would switching to a different engine mean it would take less time to make than if they stuck with the engine they are currently using? 1) I took it that way with the your comment "by the time DA4 is released it will have been in development for over twice as long as between previous games". 2) That was my arguement towards another poster that was thinking switching back to Unreal would make game development faster then staying with Frostbite.
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Post by Sartoz on Feb 19, 2022 20:45:05 GMT
I don't recall suggesting that DAI was in production for longer than DAO. As the latter was the first in the franchise and everything, including the game world itself, had to be started from scratch, it is hardly surprising it took longer than DAI. I'm confused. Why would switching to a different engine mean it would take less time to make than if they stuck with the engine they are currently using? 1) I took it that way with the your comment "by the time DA4 is released it will have been in development for over twice as long as between previous games". 2) That was my arguement towards another poster that was thinking switching back to Unreal would make game development faster then staying with Frostbite.
UE4 has the advantage that it is made for RPG game development, whereas FB is a MP design engine. Also, if you recall, Bio itself (Casey ?) admitted that they had trouble with FB when developing DA:I and were forced to develop custom tool set(s).
Timewise, the latest I read is DA4 is scheduled for a 4thQ 2023 launch, at the earliest. With Bio announcing they will talk about DA4 in 2022, I expect a teaser cinematic coming "soon".
My preference is for Bio to use UE4 and the studio has 18 months minimum. Plus, I'm hoping the game does not require bleeding edge tech hardware to run it. Either way, Bio better drop a Gem of a game for us to enjoy.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 19, 2022 21:38:18 GMT
1) I took it that way with the your comment "by the time DA4 is released it will have been in development for over twice as long as between previous games". 2) That was my arguement towards another poster that was thinking switching back to Unreal would make game development faster then staying with Frostbite.
UE4 has the advantage that it is made for RPG game development, whereas FB is a MP design engine. Also, if you recall, Bio itself (Casey ?) admitted that they had trouble with FB when developing DA:I and were forced to develop custom tool set(s).
Timewise, the latest I read is DA4 is scheduled for a 4thQ 2023 launch, at the earliest. With Bio announcing they will talk about DA4 in 2022, I expect a teaser cinematic coming "soon".
My preference is for Bio to use UE4 and the studio has 18 months minimum. Plus, I'm hoping the game does not require bleeding edge tech hardware to run it. Either way, Bio better drop a Gem of a game for us to enjoy.
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BioWare is going to have to make custom toolsets no matter what game engine they use. No game engine is designed for specific genres and BioWare would need to make custom toolsets no matter what. What Casey Hudson [Edit:] Aaryn Flynn compared it to a F1 car while also saying LinkI have never seen a quote outside of internet commentary making the claim that Frostbite's problem is that it was designed to do only one specific thing. I have also never seen anyone inside BioWare say that they wouldn't have to go and remake different elements to work on Unreal either. Its just what the internet has deluded itself into thinking.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 19, 2022 22:21:34 GMT
UE4 has the advantage that it is made for RPG game development, whereas FB is a MP design engine. Also, if you recall, Bio itself (Casey ?) admitted that they had trouble with FB when developing DA:I and were forced to develop custom tool set(s).
Timewise, the latest I read is DA4 is scheduled for a 4thQ 2023 launch, at the earliest. With Bio announcing they will talk about DA4 in 2022, I expect a teaser cinematic coming "soon".
My preference is for Bio to use UE4 and the studio has 18 months minimum. Plus, I'm hoping the game does not require bleeding edge tech hardware to run it. Either way, Bio better drop a Gem of a game for us to enjoy.
(◔‿◔)
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BioWare is going to have to make custom toolsets no matter what game engine they use. No game engine is designed for specific genres and BioWare would need to make custom toolsets no matter what. What Casey Hudson compared it to a F1 car while also saying LinkI have never seen a quote outside of internet commentary making the claim that Frostbite's problem is that it was designed to do only one specific thing. I have also never seen anyone inside BioWare say that they wouldn't have to go and remake different elements to work on Unreal either. Its just what the internet has deluded itself into thinking. Yea, I think I remember reading (I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure I've seen some dev comments somewhere) that not an insignificant amount of time went into basically remaking assets for DAI. So even if Unreal comes with excellent tools for story-heavy or RPG games from the get go that still leaves out the team having to re-adjust to using new engine and potentially having to redo assets they already have (and lose access to all assets from all games that are in Frostbite already and can be shared among EA studios). And we have known for a while now that the reason MEA had issues wasn't all Frostbite, but because they have switched a 3D program mid-way - that was just a 3D program and not a whole engine, and yet doing so mid-way had a negative impact on the development process. Personal anecdote - I've purchased Clip Studio Paint after years of using Photoshop. I like it a lot, but it took me a while to get used to it, despite CSP being relatively similar to PS - the problem doesn't just lay in adjusting to new software, but adjusting software to one's workflow. I spent days just importing and adjusting assets I could import from PS. And I'm just one person - I don't make very complex games that require their many moving parts to function in harmony. ME, as a title in pre-production, can be developed from scratch in new engine if they wish to experiment. But I don't see any sense in switching to new engine for DA4, especially that so far it appears that they may have things more-or-less figured out now, even if they still need time to get to the finish line.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 19, 2022 22:31:29 GMT
BioWare is going to have to make custom toolsets no matter what game engine they use. No game engine is designed for specific genres and BioWare would need to make custom toolsets no matter what. What Casey Hudson compared it to a F1 car while also saying LinkI have never seen a quote outside of internet commentary making the claim that Frostbite's problem is that it was designed to do only one specific thing. I have also never seen anyone inside BioWare say that they wouldn't have to go and remake different elements to work on Unreal either. Its just what the internet has deluded itself into thinking. Yea, I think I remember reading (I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure I've seen some dev comments somewhere) that not an insignificant amount of time went into basically remaking assets for DAI. So even if Unreal comes with excellent tools for story-heavy or RPG games from the get go that still leaves out the team having to re-adjust to using new engine and potentially having to redo assets they already have (and lose access to all assets from all games that are in Frostbite already and can be shared among EA studios). And we have known for a while now that the reason MEA had issues wasn't all Frostbite, but because they have switched a 3D program mid-way - that was just a 3D program and not a whole engine, and yet doing so mid-way had a negative impact on the development process. Personal anecdote - I've purchased Clip Studio Paint after years of using Photoshop. I like it a lot, but it took me a while to get used to it, despite CSP being relatively similar to PS - the problem doesn't just lay in adjusting to new software, but adjusting software to one's workflow. I spent days just importing and adjusting assets I could import from PS. And I'm just one person - I don't make very complex games that require their many moving parts to function in harmony. ME, as a title in pre-production, can be developed from scratch in new engine if they wish to experiment. But I don't see any sense in switching to new engine for DA4, especially that so far it appears that they may have things more-or-less figured out now, even if they still need time to get to the finish line. I think the arguement isn't that DA4 should be switched to Unreal, but any future BioWare games after that. I still think its going to cause more work then what it is worth for the reasons you mentioned where they are going to have to relearn Unreal and develop a flow for using Unreal (5 would be my guess). With Andromeda I think there was a lot of problems and as you and others have said it goes beyond the engine. The one feature that I have heard that Frostbite cannot do and I am pretty sure it was a Dice developer that said it was procedural content which was reported to be a pet project and major hurdle in development.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 20, 2022 0:16:30 GMT
Whatever Frostbite's issues you are bound to run into those exact same issues with any engine that BioWare goes to out of house. And then some. What is the evidence that Unreal would be better for RPG devs? Mass Effect? I guess but then BioWare was still having to go out of house for it so the engine wasn't built for them, who knows what they had to do to make it work.
Edit: I think all else being equal the solution is not to go hunting for a new engine but to make Frostbite better and easier to work with for them.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Feb 20, 2022 0:33:24 GMT
I don't think the engine even matters that much, what matters is that the developers are actually good and has familiarity with whatever engine they pic.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 20, 2022 3:56:12 GMT
I don't think the engine even matters that much, what matters is that the developers are actually good and has familiarity with whatever engine they pic. I would also want to add to your list that they have the time to develop the content. I think that has been a problem BioWare has had by not giving themselves enough time to make the game and schedule more content then is possible to put into the final product.
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 20, 2022 11:06:15 GMT
Can't say i'm a a particular fan of frostbite or the decision to go with it in the first place.
However we are probably at a place where Dragon Age is going to be Frostbite and if dragon age does well, well are they really going to switch engines after that.
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