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Post by Heimdall on Jan 18, 2019 10:38:53 GMT
Some of the discrepancies I mentioned last thread: The tutor in the Noble Origin says it was Mather Cousland who fought the werewolves and became the first Cousland Teyrn, but the codex in the same Origin says Haelia Cousland did that The codex in Origins and TWoT says Rendon Howe’s father was Tarleton Howe, a traitor who was killed by the Cousland while fighting for the Orlesians. This conflicts with Nathaniel’s stories of his grandfather Padric Howe joining the Grey Wardens There are also some strange timing issues: the Battle of White River supposedly happened shortly after the death of the Rebel Queen (8:96), but TWoT for Rendon says he received word of his uncle Byron’s death months later, though he died over two years later in The Stolen Throne (8:98). There’s also no mention of him having to retake Vigil’s Keep by force despite it supposedly being the last fortress to return to Ferelden control (According to codex entry: The Vigil). In fact TWoT makes it sound like he got home a lot earlier than Bryce Cousland did. Speaking of which, TWoT introduces the idea that the Couslands were driven from Highever early in the invasion and Bryce was the first to walk its halls in 70 years. This doesn’t necessarily conflict with previous lore, which never specified whether the Couslands had Highever or not, but it is something never mentioned before. Also, I take back what I said about Teagan: Rendon Howe is objectively the worst. Twitter: @gamingwatchman
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 18, 2019 18:39:26 GMT
Rendon Howe is objectively the worst I do wonder if they abandoned some sort of sub-plot in DAO that would have made him seem slightly less awful. I was surprised when I finally played the human noble origin, that when I confronted him in Denerim he said something about my father having been a traitor to Ferelden. This was something of a puzzle if you only play the basic game. However, Return to Ostagar threw up the fact that Cailan had been having secret correspondence with Empress Celene, with a view to putting Anora aside and marrying her. Now obviously such sensitive letters would not be sent through regular channels but more likely by a trusted courier. Then I recalled that back in the origin story, my father, Bryce Cousland, had said about having recently returned from Orlais. Could he have been the person trusted with conveying the secret correspondence to Celene? Of course for this to hold up as a potential reason for turning on the Couslands, either Loghain or Howe would needed to have discovered what Cailan was doing. Yet if you take Loghain with you to Ostagar his reaction to the revelations you uncover there seems one of shocked surprise. However, back in the camp at the beginning, we can get gossip from a soldier that Cailan and Loghain have been arguing about the Queen. We never get told in the basic game what the argument was about but it is clear in RtO that if nothing else it might have been about her failure to produce offspring, even if Cailan didn't go so far as suggesting he would divorce her for it. So did they originally intend for Howe to be less of an out and out evil bastard but then changed tack due to lack of time or a change of direction in writing? I'm mindful of the fact that DG intimated the game was originally going to be more based on the politics of the land but then it changed to become a more regular save the world type of scenario. In which case it is likely that the letters in RtO and the various betrayals were all that remained of what would have been a far more complex scenario. What do you think?
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Post by Julilla on Jan 18, 2019 20:05:11 GMT
I like your voice, you sound like an old timey 30's radio announcer. Very nice job with this. I am glad you've reconsidered and come to the correct conclusion, that Rendon Howe is the worst.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 18, 2019 20:51:31 GMT
So did they originally intend for Howe to be less of an out and out evil bastard but then changed tack due to lack of time or a change of direction in writing? I'm mindful of the fact that DG intimated the game was originally going to be more based on the politics of the land but then it changed to become a more regular save the world type of scenario. In which case it is likely that the letters in RtO and the various betrayals were all that remained of what would have been a far more complex scenario. What do you think? I actually think most of the political stuff in DAO is a bit underdeveloped. It actually occurred to me that DAO has some of the same problem as DAI in terms of really exploring it’s human conflict (Orlesian Civil War), better primarily because of the occasional cut away to Loghain and Howe in Denerim so we get some better understanding of what’s going on and who the players are. Beyond that, the political plot is almost entirely offscreen with the recruiting allies quests taking center stage. We really just know that Loghain is facing some resistance while we go off and do stuff that often barely intersects with it. I wish they had built up a more complex scenario as you suggest with various betrayals and development of the politics. That said, I think Rendon Howe was always going to be a scummy opportunist character.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 19, 2019 1:42:48 GMT
However, Return to Ostagar threw up the fact that Cailan had been having secret correspondence with Empress Celene, with a view to putting Anora aside and marrying her. Now obviously such sensitive letters would not be sent through regular channels but more likely by a trusted courier. Then I recalled that back in the origin story, my father, Bryce Cousland, had said about having recently returned from Orlais. Could he have been the person trusted with conveying the secret correspondence to Celene? Nice catch!
The Cousland's loyalty to the crown and seeming willingness to travel to and reforge ties with Orlais, combined with Eleanor's line about how Bryce was at one point "mistaken for the King", could have meant that Bryce was indeed privy to Cailan's secret plans?
Besides Arl Eamon, Teyrn Cousland was one of the most powerful men in the country, so having him on side would have been very important, if Cailan wanted to avoid civil war once Loghain and the rest of the Bannorn discovered he intended to marry Celene and unite the two countries.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 19, 2019 8:43:18 GMT
That said, I think Rendon Howe was always going to be a scummy opportunist character. Even a scummy opportunist can be loyal to their country, which could have been the one redeeming feature in an otherwise dislikeable character. It also seems to me that it would have benefitted a mere opportunist more to have ratted out Loghain to the king and his allies, than gamble on Loghain pulling off his coup. It did after all rely on the fact that Cailan would take the field on the front line without waiting for reinforcements to arrive and not retreat in time when his forces started to be overwhelmed, that Jowan would be successful in poisoning Eamon and that Bryce and his family wouldn't escape the carnage (in fact of course the Warden did). It was rather odd that the actions of Howe against the Couslands was never mentioned again after Ostagar. I know there were two ways that someone could view what happened there which would allow nobles to still support Loghain, but how could the other nobles justify what Howe did to the Couslands, which they had to have heard about? Surely that would raise a big question mark in their minds why Loghain was putting his trust in such a man and promoting him as he did? However, if it had been publicised what Cailan and Eamon had been planning regarding Orlais, with the assistance of Bryce, that would explain why he had as much support as he did. It actually also raises the timing of all those variables, which actually don't seem to be synchronised correctly. How Loghain knew that Connor was a mage and so Isolde would be wanting to recruit a tutor for him. How he managed to know about Jowan who only escaped from Kinloch Hold at the time Duncan was recruiting the last addition to his forces. How Eamon had fallen sick, every other type of healing had been tried and failed before Isolde sent off her knights looking for a cure, which had clearly been going on for some time when we arrive in Lothering, and yet no message had been sent to Cailan.
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Post by Julilla on Jan 22, 2019 22:38:35 GMT
The Banns are notoriously looking for political advantage where they can find it. It might be why nobody made too huge of a stink about the Couslands. They would, I assume, bide their time and make alliances with each other for protection in case Howe or Loghain came for them. Inside, they'd have been shitting themselves about it, but outwardly they're seeing which way the wind is blowing and keeping their heads down. That's what I imagine, anyway.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jan 23, 2019 5:18:34 GMT
Given that no matter who we make ruler at the landsmeet they still have no heir 10 years later maybe another Ferelden Noble family will end up elected to the throne after them.
Maybe even a Cousland will end up ruler. Do Fergus and Warden Cousland have any cousins or will the family die out if Fergus doesn't remarry?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 23, 2019 18:42:17 GMT
Maybe even a Cousland will end up ruler. Do Fergus and Warden Cousland have any cousins or will the family die out if Fergus doesn't remarry? I think we can assume that Fergus would remarry, given how important continuing the family line is to the nobility of Thedas. Whether his sibling died or were made Warden they were unlikely to have offspring (legitimate ones anyway), and Fergus was also the eldest child so he automatically inherited Highever. We also know from comments by Oghran in DAA and then the War Table mission in DAI that Fergus is still alive and well, so if the current ruler has no offspring it seems likely that he and his heirs could be in line for the role. It also seems the best solution considering that he survives no matter what the world state that is carried forward.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 23, 2019 20:30:20 GMT
Maybe even a Cousland will end up ruler. Do Fergus and Warden Cousland have any cousins or will the family die out if Fergus doesn't remarry? I think we can assume that Fergus would remarry, given how important continuing the family line is to the nobility of Thedas. Whether his sibling died or were made Warden they were unlikely to have offspring (legitimate ones anyway), and Fergus was also the eldest child so he automatically inherited Highever. We also know from comments by Oghran in DAA and then the War Table mission in DAI that Fergus is still alive and well, so if the current ruler has no offspring it seems likely that he and his heirs could be in line for the role. It also seems the best solution considering that he survives no matter what the world state that is carried forward. Maybe it’s just all this research into Ferelden’s nobility, but I’d actually like to see more (perhaps previously unmentioned) second generation characters appear. Perhaps they could do something similar to Kieran (i.e. looks the same regardless of parentage, probably blonde because one of the parents has to be whether it’s Anora or Alistair) and have Ferelden’s ruler’s produce an heir, a Prince Duncan or Princess Moira perhaps. There’s also that one epilogue slide if Connor dies where Eamon and Isolde have a child named Rowan (who is also a mage). Teagan has two potential spouses in the epilogues, so maybe he had a child. Then there’s Fergus remarrying of course. Bhelen’s son, Endrin II, should be alive in all world states. Why all this would come up in DA4, assuming it is indeed set in Tevinter, I don’t know. Especially considering these characters are at most 13-14 at the time of the Exalted Council. Maybe a magisterium report on the political status of the south? I’d just sort of like to know. It bothers me that all these dynasties appear to be stagnating without children.
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Post by parsival on Jan 24, 2019 10:57:12 GMT
I completely agree that it would be nice to see Bioware develop the second generation of Ferelden nobility. Unfortunately, I don't think they ever will, as from their point of view, it's not worth the effort. I suppose I could foresee Fergus being introduced if they wished into DA 4 - a dynastic marriage into Tevinter or Nevarran nobility could be an interesting bit of political background and is in no danger of contradicting any player's canon. In any case, we can all invent our own 'head-canon'!
Thanks again for the video. The great mystery to me is Rendon Howe's change of character after his serious injury - a head injury with some damage to the brain, perhaps? They say a similar paranoid change in personality happened to Henry VIII after his jousting accident.
Keep up the good work!
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 24, 2019 16:57:48 GMT
The commenter from my previous video re-emerged to offer his views on the Couslands and Howe’s. I will grant him that I totally forgot about some stuff from the Human Noble Origin that implies the Couslands definitely lived and fought from Highever in the days of Bryce’s father.
Although I would contend that the Couslands successfully holding Highever against Orlais for the entire occupation doesn’t really make sense in the context of The Stolen Throne, where it indicates that any noble who openly supported rebellion had to abandon their holdings to avoid Orlesian retaliation.
TWoT does have errors, but I don’t understand his preoccupation with the ages of characters like Nathaniel and Anora here.
He’s also wrong about several things, but well, here:
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 24, 2019 17:00:37 GMT
I completely agree that it would be nice to see Bioware develop the second generation of Ferelden nobility. Unfortunately, I don't think they ever will, as from their point of view, it's not worth the effort. I suppose I could foresee Fergus being introduced if they wished into DA 4 - a dynastic marriage into Tevinter or Nevarran nobility could be an interesting bit of political background and is in no danger of contradicting any player's canon. In any case, we can all invent our own 'head-canon'! Thanks again for the video. The great mystery to me is Rendon Howe's change of character after his serious injury - a head injury with some damage to the brain, perhaps? They say a similar paranoid change in personality happened to Henry VIII after his jousting accident. Keep up the good work! According to TWoT, it was a lance through the chest. So he didn’t suffer direct neurological damage, except maybe some sort of shock and PTSD. Possibly he felt that he suffered more and benefited less compared to Bryce, spurring his jealousy and resentment. So some combination of those things.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 24, 2019 18:04:34 GMT
Another problem is in regards to when Bryce and Eleanor married. This sets an arbitrary and cumbersome age ceiling on the human noble. Fergus would be roughly 28 at most, and the human noble would be 27 at most. This is dumb. Anora was 30, by comparison. Nathaniel was 29 or 28. Which reminds me, Nathaniel was born in 9:1 as he was 30 in 9:31, but this would be before Rendon married. But the main point is, why can't the human noble (possible husband to Anora) be the same age as Anora, or older? (BTW, WoT screws up Anora's age as well, making her younger than Cailan.) I can't speak for everything else but where did he get the idea that Anora was 30? I don't recall any mention of her age in DAO. Loghain was made Teyrn of Gwaren as his reward for his faithful service in the rebellion after the Orlesians had been driven out of Ferelden in 9:00. It was in Gwaren that he met his wife, Anora's mother, proposing marriage a couple of months after their first meeting, so even if he visited Gwaren in early 9:1 and she conceived straight after their marriage, Anora still couldn't have been more than 29 when the Fifth Blight began. However, it is also stated in WoT that it was in 9:10 that his wife encouraged Loghain to take his young daughter with him on his trips to Denerim. By definition, young could mean anything not a teenager but the entry also refers to him braiding the "little" girl's hair, so certainly there is no reason on the basis of these dates that Anora could not have been born around the same time as Cailan and therefore been similar to him in age.
This also makes less of a problem about the Cousland dates (although there is no reason why a younger man should not marry an older woman, as in fact Alistair does if you pair him up with Anora). I also wonder where the birth date of 9:1 for Nathaniel comes from, although I don't see the problem with this seeing as his mother was devoted to Rendon before the liberation of Ferelden, so if they married straight after the Battle for Denerim, it would fit whether she was already pregnant or not.
To be honest, I always assumed that the PC in DAO is in their early twenties no matter what their origin. None of them strike me as that much older than Alistair, who is definitely only 20, with a birth date of 9:10, which presumably fits with the dates of The Calling. Given their various backgrounds, if they were in their late twenties you would assume all, apart from the mage Warden, would have been married or at least in a relationship by the time Duncan turns up.
However, I will concede that World of Thedas does seem very cavalier with dates, even those with whom we are closely associated with in the game. It has always been a source of annoyance that World of Thedas totally ignored the history we are given for the parents of the Dalish Warden in their origin story. Our father was said to have been Keeper of our clan before Marethari and then World of Thedas has her becoming Keeper after the death of the previous holder of the post in 8:82. So for this to be true and that of our father, the Dalish Warden would be 48 years of age in DAO. Now that is ridiculous.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 24, 2019 18:47:01 GMT
I can't speak for everything else but where did he get the idea that Anora was 30? I actually think I know. It occurred to me after I posted it. I believe it’s in the Return to Ostagar letters, where Eamon apparently suggested Cailan put Anora aside because she was reaching her thirtieth year and had not produced a child. I only vaguely remember it. I’ll have to check later. Although that doesn’t really make sense because then she should have been born before the end of the rebellion and I’m pretty sure Loghain was supposed to have only met his wife after going off to Gwaren, which was after.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 24, 2019 18:55:32 GMT
I believe it’s in the Return to Ostagar letters, where Eamon apparently suggested Cailan put Anora aside because she was reaching her thirtieth year and had not produced a child. I only vaguely remember it. You are quite correct, the letter is quoted in World of Thedas 2. However, if she is "approaching her 30th year", she is not yet in her 30th year. Also you are in your 30th year after your 29th birthday up until your 30th birthday. So on this basis Anora was only 28 years of age, not 30. This means she would have been older than Cailan but then so would Celene if he had married her. I don't think a few years difference would be considered a problem among the nobility provided the woman was still capable of bearing children. Cleary Eamon abandoned his objections to Anora on account of her childless state when it came to legitimising Alistair's rule and uniting the country.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 25, 2019 8:21:47 GMT
The commenter from my previous video re-emerged to offer his views on the Couslands and Howe’s. I will grant him that I totally forgot about some stuff from the Human Noble Origin that implies the Couslands definitely lived and fought from Highever in the days of Bryce’s father. Although I would contend that the Couslands successfully holding Highever against Orlais for the entire occupation doesn’t really make sense in the context of The Stolen Throne, where it indicates that any noble who openly supported rebellion had to abandon their holdings to avoid Orlesian retaliation. TWoT does have errors, but I don’t understand his preoccupation with the ages of characters like Nathaniel and Anora here. I noticed this commenter when I watched the video.
Constructive criticism and feedback is good, but I feel like this person may have strayed into pointlessly nitpicking at times. Also repeatedly declaring "World of Thedas is wrong" at the end of nearly every sentence felt a little unnecessary. Sometimes the writers do make mistakes and subsequent editions/reprints of WOT often come with a list of corrections by "Genitivi" of the various things "he" goofed on, so it's not like they go by completely unacknowledged.
(And in case this commenter frequents this forum, I'm not saying that you shouldn't give Heimdall feedback, but make sure it's good feedback. No-one will accept feedback if it comes across as being slightly condescending at times, even if the criticism was valid and the mistakes pointed out were correct. Let's all try keep things friendly and light, we're all fans here.)
I would like to point out though that despite Aldous saying that the Orlesian's couldn't hold the Teyrnir of Highever successfully, that doesn't preclude that they weren't able to take control of Highever itself, explaining why Bryce may have had to flee and work to retake their holdings?
(A good example of something similar happening in real world history comes from Alfred the Great. Even though he was always the King of Wessex, that doesn't mean that one point in his reign, he wasn't forced to retreat, regroup and retake his kingdom, after Danish invaders overran a large portion of it).
Perhaps the Teyrnir never fully fell to Orlais, but the city of Highever may very well have? Hence the strategic importance of holding somewhere like Harper's Ford, as it's centralised location made it an excellent staging area for the rebels to operate from and let them retake/defend the Teyrnir far more easily.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 25, 2019 15:16:27 GMT
He kind of came off like he was sneering after every sentence when I first read his comments, which certainly put me off. I want to be open to criticism, but I just don’t agree with his attitude about how to treat source material so that’s a bit of a nonstarter.
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