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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 14, 2019 21:35:00 GMT
They try to make bigotry complex when the PLAYER is doing it. Simplistic villains are an unrelated issue. I've played Dorian's quest, thanks, and of course YOU find the issue 'complex'. But a lot of gay people (you know, the ones who have deal with abusive parents and reparative therapy IRL), particularly on this forum, find that whole quest abhorrent. The only gay person I've ever seen who thought it was a good idea was the one who wrote it. Wasn't the situation supposed to be abhorrent? Well sure, it pays minor lip service to the notion that "reparative therapy bad", but aside from being an extremely weak and toothless metaphor, the game does everything short of hold up a neon sign to tell you that convincing Dorian to reconcile with Halward is both the "good" choice, and the best thing for Dorian personally.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 14, 2019 21:47:28 GMT
Siding with the Templars in DA2 is particularly egregious. Meredith's argument is that 'the people will demand blood', but apparently NOT the blood of the mage who did THE BAD THING, if Hawke chooses to let him live. Just random, unrelated mage blood. That's what people are like, though. "Someone has to pay!" they'll shout, not caring particularly who that is as long as it's not them. It's apparently what Meredith is like. We don't really get to poll the citizens of Kirkwall about it.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 14, 2019 21:48:36 GMT
Wasn't the situation supposed to be abhorrent? Well sure, it pays minor lip service to the notion that "reparative therapy bad", but aside from being an extremely weak and toothless metaphor, the game does everything short of hold up a neon sign to tell you that convincing Dorian to reconcile with Halward is both the "good" choice, and the best thing for Dorian personally.Interesting, I've heard a highly qualified psychotherapist give exactly that advice to people who had been sexually exploited by one of their parents. The guy who got mad at said therapist for not encouraging vengeful thoughts to the patient's detriment was funnily enough the loudest and proudest card-carrying homophobe I've ever met. I didn't see any neon signs during that quest though.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 14, 2019 21:55:37 GMT
Well sure, it pays minor lip service to the notion that "reparative therapy bad", but aside from being an extremely weak and toothless metaphor, the game does everything short of hold up a neon sign to tell you that convincing Dorian to reconcile with Halward is both the "good" choice, and the best thing for Dorian personally.Interesting, I've heard a highly qualified psychotherapist give exactly that advice to people who had been sexually exploited by one of their parents. The guy who got mad at said therapist for not encouraging vengeful thoughts to the patient's detriment was funnily enough the biggest and proudest card-carrying homophobe I've ever met. I didn't see any neon signs during that quest though. I did say "everything short of". I have no idea what this personal anecdote is for. Harboring vengeful thoughts certainly IS psychologically unhealthy, I should know, I do it all the time, but it doesn't follow that abusers should be forgiven. Particularly sexual abusers, what the fuck.
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Post by cankiie on Mar 14, 2019 21:58:54 GMT
It has been some time since I did the Dorian questline.
But wasn't it just something along the lines of Dorian being given the opoortunity to talk to his dad.
But Dorian does remark that he is not about to forgive his dad... they just talked, and it somehow lifted a burden off Dorian's shoulders... somehow.
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Post by Little Bengel on Mar 14, 2019 22:00:15 GMT
Wasn't the situation supposed to be abhorrent? Well sure, it pays minor lip service to the notion that "reparative therapy bad", but aside from being an extremely weak and toothless metaphor, the game does everything short of hold up a neon sign to tell you that convincing Dorian to reconcile with Halward is both the "good" choice, and the best thing for Dorian personally. How exactly does the game itself imply that? I just saw the quest, and if I have to be honest, I saw nothing that would imply anything like that.
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Post by Little Bengel on Mar 14, 2019 22:03:40 GMT
That's what people are like, though. "Someone has to pay!" they'll shout, not caring particularly who that is as long as it's not them. It's apparently what Meredith is like. We don't really get to poll the citizens of Kirkwall about it. When the demons start wandering around Kirkwall and the blood mages start rampaging, I don't think there's a need to poll them. Meredith may be paranoid and fervently anti-mage, but as DA2's final quest shows, she was right about the blood mages in the Circle.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 14, 2019 22:15:03 GMT
Interesting, I've heard a highly qualified psychotherapist give exactly that advice to people who had been sexually exploited by one of their parents. The guy who got mad at said therapist for not encouraging vengeful thoughts to the patient's detriment was funnily enough the biggest and proudest card-carrying homophobe I've ever met. I didn't see any neon signs during that quest though. I did say "everything short of". I have no idea what this personal anecdote is for. Harboring vengeful thoughts certainly IS psychologically unhealthy, I should know, I do it all the time, but it doesn't follow that abusers should be forgiven. Particularly sexual abusers, what the fuck. I didn't see "everything short of" neon signs either. Not that they SHOULD be forgiven, obviously, but if the perpetrator has suffered every possible consequence of their actions and holding on to the anger is more punishment for you than it is for them, and you actually can find it in yourself to try to forgive them? And the game doesn't force that notion on you in the slightest. Dorian is furious at the suggestion and completely unwilling to go in that direction without you nudging him towards it, and his father is a Tevinter Magister when all is said and done, throwing natural doubt on his sincerity and general moral awareness. Personally I didn't see that the Inquisitor had anything to add to the whole situation and just let Dorian deal with his business as he saw fit, and I didn't feel the game judged or punished me for it at all.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 14, 2019 22:43:44 GMT
I also didn't get the impression the game was forcing you into that direction. I only personally felt guilty because i am big into redemption and forgiveness but again my Trevelyan wasn't sure she should interfere.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 14, 2019 22:49:45 GMT
Well sure, it pays minor lip service to the notion that "reparative therapy bad", but aside from being an extremely weak and toothless metaphor, the game does everything short of hold up a neon sign to tell you that convincing Dorian to reconcile with Halward is both the "good" choice, and the best thing for Dorian personally. How exactly does the game itself imply that? I just saw the quest, and if I have to be honest, I saw nothing that would imply anything like that. It doesn't
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Post by Little Bengel on Mar 14, 2019 23:00:40 GMT
How exactly does the game itself imply that? I just saw the quest, and if I have to be honest, I saw nothing that would imply anything like that. It doesn't True, I've seen it. I'm just asking pessimistpanda because if I am being honest, I want to know how he arrived at that conclusion. Simple curiosity.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 15, 2019 2:23:03 GMT
True, I've seen it. I'm just asking pessimistpanda because if I am being honest, I want to know how he arrived at that conclusion. Simple curiosity. I came to that conclusion by having the perspective of a gay man who knows other gay men who have been subjected to reparative therapy IRL. I find the entire quest (in the story of a character that I otherwise like) to be sloppy and offensive. You aren't obligated to agree with me, and I don't expect you to.
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 15, 2019 2:43:38 GMT
They don’t tell me that Celene has to be supported barring her having an accident. That would be useful info come the assassanation attempt. Blindness of limited hallas and clues isn’t good either. Well I definitely agree that the halla statues are fucking stupid as shit, for many reasons. You should absolutely be able to remove and re-use the statues as many times as you like, and furthermore, that entire mechanic is completely immersion-breaking, because nobody would be able to live in a place that worked that way. I mean, come the fuck on. "Has anyone seen my five halla statues? I left a guy tied to the bed and I should really let him out before he starves to death." "Oh, sorry, I took one to get into the storeroom. Dunno where the rest are." I hate that quest. And I hate that I hate it because it should be a lot of fun. As someone who doesn't follow the EU, I lack a lot of the background info that my character should have. The halla statues were bad, the timer even worse imho. I really hate trying to do things against a timer - I'm the sort who likes to spend time taking in all of the textures, décor, ambience, conversations, and try to leave no stone unturned - and that damned timer works against my enjoyment of the quest. And even the ones that have that silly "save everyone" option give you a rational reason not to go that route, and get a less idealized story out of it instead. The choice to go to the mages for help in Redcliffe Castle isn't just stupid, it's explicitly pointed out as such in the game, as you say. Zathrien and Swiftrunner both point out that the other is acting out of petty vengeance, and the spirit is still a spirit, no matter how angelic. Who knows what it's really after? Your meta knowledge of the third option in those decisions is annoying, no question there, but you can ignore it. Actually, you can rationalize any decisions here. Your primary goal with Eamon is access to his army to help fight the blight, and oh by the way with the civil war going on it sure would be nice to have a grateful noble in your pocket. How supportive is he going to be if his wife or child perish under your watch? Does it make sense to trust blood mage Jowan? Can you count on Morrigan or Wynne to get the job done? That demon has supposedly been keeping Eamon alive - will he survive once the demon is vanquished? Will he survive the process of a difficult exorcism? There are a number of reasons here why you might be better off going into it with a group of Circle magi versus a lone blood mage (who has some responsibility for the problem in the first place.) As for Zathrien versus Swiftrunner, a werewolf army could be pretty effective versus the spawn. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 15, 2019 3:33:19 GMT
Actually, you can rationalize any decisions here. Your primary goal with Eamon is access to his army to help fight the blight, and oh by the way with the civil war going on it sure would be nice to have a grateful noble in your pocket. How supportive is he going to be if his wife or child perish under your watch? Does it make sense to trust blood mage Jowan? Can you count on Morrigan or Wynne to get the job done? That demon has supposedly been keeping Eamon alive - will he survive once the demon is vanquished? Will he survive the process of a difficult exorcism? There are a number of reasons here why you might be better off going into it with a group of Circle magi versus a lone blood mage (who has some responsibility for the problem in the first place.) As for Zathrien versus Swiftrunner, a werewolf army could be pretty effective versus the spawn. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I agree that in principle you can rationalize any decision in the game. A character thinking along those lines doesn't strike me as very far-sighted, though. There won't be a lot of grateful soldiers left if Redcliffe is an undead town when you return because the demon didn't miraculously stay in its room, and if Eamon dies when you slaughter Connor like a pig or vanquish the demon in the Fade then... Teagan is Arl. And you already have more sway with him than you ever do with his brother. And no more reason to go traipsing off into the mountains for miracle cures. And meh, an unarmed and unarmored werewolf army - you have personally been killing them without much trouble for two hours by this point - would be effective against spawn for five minutes until they all got sick with the Taint if they were susceptible to such, having no protection whatsoever. A bunch of great archers easily out-values kamikaze shock troops tactically in most medieval warfare scenarios. But yeah, whatever floats your boat. I came to that conclusion by having the perspective of a gay man who knows other gay men who have been subjected to reparative therapy IRL. I find the entire quest (in the story of a character that I otherwise like) to be sloppy and offensive. You aren't obligated to agree with me, and I don't expect you to. Well, if you don't want to share your reasoning that's fine, but nobody can read your mind. So there really isn't much to talk about then. And from the perspective of a heterosexual man who knows several victims of various kinds of physical and sexual abuse, I also found it sloppy and awkward for my character to be dragged into such a complicated and intimate dynamic she knew basically nothing about and asked to try to influence Dorian's emotional life in such profound ways as a relative stranger who had definitely not earned his trust to that level. Suddenly asking for that kind of cheapens him as a grown, intelligent man who otherwise is no stranger to making tough decisions at his own peril.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 15, 2019 5:36:48 GMT
Actually, you can rationalize any decisions here. Your primary goal with Eamon is access to his army to help fight the blight, and oh by the way with the civil war going on it sure would be nice to have a grateful noble in your pocket. How supportive is he going to be if his wife or child perish under your watch? Does it make sense to trust blood mage Jowan? Can you count on Morrigan or Wynne to get the job done? That demon has supposedly been keeping Eamon alive - will he survive once the demon is vanquished? Will he survive the process of a difficult exorcism? There are a number of reasons here why you might be better off going into it with a group of Circle magi versus a lone blood mage (who has some responsibility for the problem in the first place.) As for Zathrien versus Swiftrunner, a werewolf army could be pretty effective versus the spawn. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I agree that in principle you can rationalize any decision in the game. A character thinking along those lines doesn't strike me as very far-sighted, though. There won't be a lot of grateful soldiers left if Redcliffe is an undead town when you return because the demon didn't miraculously stay in its room, and if Eamon dies when you slaughter Connor like a pig or vanquish the demon in the Fade then... Teagan is Arl. And you already have more sway with him than you ever do with his brother. And no more reason to go traipsing off into the mountains for miracle cures. And meh, an unarmed and unarmored werewolf army - you have personally been killing them without much trouble for two hours by this point - would be effective against spawn for five minutes until they all got sick with the Taint if they were susceptible to such, having no protection whatsoever. A bunch of great archers easily out-values kamikaze shock troops tactically in most medieval warfare scenarios. But yeah, whatever floats your boat. I came to that conclusion by having the perspective of a gay man who knows other gay men who have been subjected to reparative therapy IRL. I find the entire quest (in the story of a character that I otherwise like) to be sloppy and offensive. You aren't obligated to agree with me, and I don't expect you to. Well, if you don't want to share your reasoning that's fine, but nobody can read your mind. So there really isn't much to talk about then. And from the perspective of a heterosexual man who knows several victims of various kinds of physical and sexual abuse, I also found it sloppy and awkward for my character to be dragged into such a complicated and intimate dynamic she knew basically nothing about and asked to try to influence Dorian's emotional life in such profound ways as a relative stranger who had definitely not earned his trust to that level. Suddenly asking for that kind cheapens him as a grown, intelligent man who otherwise is no stranger to making tough decisions at his own peril. I didn't share my reasoning, because it is largely based in emotion. But if you really want to know, I had a friend (I haven't spoken to him for a couple years now), who was subjected to reparative therapy as a child. He got into the Dragon Age games because I recommended them after playing Origins, on the basis that they were more inclusive than other games. I don't know all the details of what his "treatment" involved, but it ought to be common knowledge by now that what goes on in these institutions is nothing less than torture. And that's the main crux of my problem: BioWare wants to mine the pain of homosexuals for cheap drama, but it doesn't want to confront its majority-straight audience with the horrifying reality of what that involves. Compared to what many children go through, Dorian, a grown-ass man, is getting off extremely lightly. The blood magic mind control spell, while being an obvious and ham-fisted metaphor, isn't remotely apt (and Halward, saint that he is, was only THINKING about it, after all). Considering the general clamour on this forum for more "dark realism", it's remarkable that more people don't bring up this particular point, but of course that's because "dark realism" is mostly just code for "opportunities to be a terrible person". When my friend came across this quest, not only did he not complete it, he stopped playing the game altogether, and to my knowledge, never finished it. The content of the narrative was bad enough, but the fact that the quest directly asks you to lie to Dorian on behalf of a religious authority figure (real subtle imagery there) was the final straw for him. I'm sure some people in here will dismiss that as the whining of a "triggered snowflake", but I know my friend is extremely smart and rational, and not prone to making snap decisions based on emotion. I am, however, and everything about that quest and how it was written absolutely repels me. The fact that it was written by an openly gay man just twists the knife, I am strongly of the opinion that David Gaider ought to know better. Calling it a "personal story" isn't a defense, it was written for public consumption, and the things it says about the issue will be internalised by the game's audience. Of course, lots of gay people also liked the quest. I don't claim to be an authority on what gay men think.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 15, 2019 6:50:51 GMT
I didn't share my reasoning, because it is largely based in emotion. But if you really want to know, I had a friend (I haven't spoken to him for a couple years now), who was subjected to reparative therapy as a child. He got into the Dragon Age games because I recommended them after playing Origins, on the basis that they were more inclusive than other games. I don't know all the details of what his "treatment" involved, but it ought to be common knowledge by now that what goes on in these institutions is nothing less than torture. And that's the main crux of my problem: BioWare wants to mine the pain of homosexuals for cheap drama, but it doesn't want to confront its majority-straight audience with the horrifying reality of what that involves. Compared to what many children go through, Dorian, a grown-ass man, is getting off extremely lightly. The blood magic mind control spell, while being an obvious and ham-fisted metaphor, isn't remotely apt (and Halward, saint that he is, was only THINKING about it, after all). Considering the general clamour on this forum for more "dark realism", it's remarkable that more people don't bring up this particular point, but of course that's because "dark realism" is mostly just code for "opportunities to be a terrible person". When my friend came across this quest, not only did he not complete it, he stopped playing the game altogether, and to my knowledge, never finished it. The content of the narrative was bad enough, but the fact that the quest directly asks you to lie to Dorian on behalf of a religious authority figure (real subtle imagery there) was the final straw for him. I'm sure some people in here will dismiss that as the whining of a "triggered snowflake", but I know my friend is extremely smart and rational, and not prone to making snap decisions based on emotion. I am, however, and everything about that quest and how it was written absolutely repels me. The fact that it was written by an openly gay man just twists the knife, I am strongly of the opinion that David Gaider ought to know better. Calling it a "personal story" isn't a defense, it was written for public consumption, and the things it says about the issue will be internalised by the game's audience. Of course, lots of gay people also liked the quest. I don't claim to be an authority on what gay men think. A well-framed and comprehensive story and line of reasoning. Thank you for sharing it, and I'm sorry about your friend. He sounds like someone who can take care of himself, so I hope and imagine he came out of the game unscathed and is doing okay today. It sounds like your gripe with the whole scenario is less that Bioware attempted to create a story about someone dealing with the familial tensions of a parent having considered reparative therapy on their behalf, and more that they half-assed it. Using a neat and fluffy and toothless metaphor for something incredibly messy and unsafe and traumatic in real life, completely disrespecting what actual people have gone through. Your response then seems to be that they should have gone all-in so the story actually rang true for you and/or your friend, or not tried at all. I tend to agree, leaning more toward the former than the latter option. You'll have to forgive those of us who clamor for dark fantasy and gritty realism that that isn't one of the things we talk about. It really isn't a mainstream subject relevant to a lot of us, and this is the only piece of gaming I've ever engaged with that even attempted to approach the subject seriously in an exploratory way. But the principal problem you have with how Bioware handled it is the exact reason I resent that they've lightened the tone of the series, either in an attempt to make it child-friendly or to avoid triggering people sensitive to certain topics. Making games for both kids and adults. As inclusive as possible. The result is this weird amalgamation of genocide and reparative therapy of homosexuality in children, sexual abuse of social dependents, slavery and total war and starvation... in a world where none of the realities of those things must ever be delved into in any real detail. A pretension of deep storytelling with barely any depth, and a pretension of harmless fantasy escapism full of absolutely terrible things that nobody could understand or discuss reasonably without a good deal of experience with and knowledge of the troubles of the world. Bioware indubitably do as much as they can within that framework, but it's still just a bullshit approach to storytelling. My personal preference would be for the dial to turn back in the direction of really delving into those dark and uncomfortable things, and being fucking honest about them. As you say, what we see in entertainment informs and is assimilated into our cultures, and these are real and present problems that we struggle with and need to understand as well as possible in order to remain stable societies in the real world. Denying the realities of them, sweeping them under the rug and constantly immersing ourselves in worlds where they inexplicably don't exist just causes confusion and misunderstanding and delusions and prevents us from actually negotiating our way through subjects like those in real life. And it also, as you say, makes those of us who struggle with specific, messy and complicated things that very few other people can relate to feel misunderstood and disenfranchised, because even the attempts to reach out and inform about those topics are sugar-coated and streamlined beyond recognition. I definitely get why you find the quest offensive now, and I agree that it really is kind of insulting in that light.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 15, 2019 7:37:16 GMT
I agree that in principle you can rationalize any decision in the game. A character thinking along those lines doesn't strike me as very far-sighted, though. There won't be a lot of grateful soldiers left if Redcliffe is an undead town when you return because the demon didn't miraculously stay in its room, and if Eamon dies when you slaughter Connor like a pig or vanquish the demon in the Fade then... Teagan is Arl. And you already have more sway with him than you ever do with his brother. And no more reason to go traipsing off into the mountains for miracle cures. And meh, an unarmed and unarmored werewolf army - you have personally been killing them without much trouble for two hours by this point - would be effective against spawn for five minutes until they all got sick with the Taint if they were susceptible to such, having no protection whatsoever. A bunch of great archers easily out-values kamikaze shock troops tactically in most medieval warfare scenarios. But yeah, whatever floats your boat. Well, if you don't want to share your reasoning that's fine, but nobody can read your mind. So there really isn't much to talk about then. And from the perspective of a heterosexual man who knows several victims of various kinds of physical and sexual abuse, I also found it sloppy and awkward for my character to be dragged into such a complicated and intimate dynamic she knew basically nothing about and asked to try to influence Dorian's emotional life in such profound ways as a relative stranger who had definitely not earned his trust to that level. Suddenly asking for that kind cheapens him as a grown, intelligent man who otherwise is no stranger to making tough decisions at his own peril. I didn't share my reasoning, because it is largely based in emotion. But if you really want to know, I had a friend (I haven't spoken to him for a couple years now), who was subjected to reparative therapy as a child. He got into the Dragon Age games because I recommended them after playing Origins, on the basis that they were more inclusive than other games. I don't know all the details of what his "treatment" involved, but it ought to be common knowledge by now that what goes on in these institutions is nothing less than torture. And that's the main crux of my problem: BioWare wants to mine the pain of homosexuals for cheap drama, but it doesn't want to confront its majority-straight audience with the horrifying reality of what that involves. Compared to what many children go through, Dorian, a grown-ass man, is getting off extremely lightly. The blood magic mind control spell, while being an obvious and ham-fisted metaphor, isn't remotely apt (and Halward, saint that he is, was only THINKING about it, after all). Considering the general clamour on this forum for more "dark realism", it's remarkable that more people don't bring up this particular point, but of course that's because "dark realism" is mostly just code for "opportunities to be a terrible person". When my friend came across this quest, not only did he not complete it, he stopped playing the game altogether, and to my knowledge, never finished it. The content of the narrative was bad enough, but the fact that the quest directly asks you to lie to Dorian on behalf of a religious authority figure (real subtle imagery there) was the final straw for him. I'm sure some people in here will dismiss that as the whining of a "triggered snowflake", but I know my friend is extremely smart and rational, and not prone to making snap decisions based on emotion. I am, however, and everything about that quest and how it was written absolutely repels me. The fact that it was written by an openly gay man just twists the knife, I am strongly of the opinion that David Gaider ought to know better. Calling it a "personal story" isn't a defense, it was written for public consumption, and the things it says about the issue will be internalised by the game's audience. Of course, lots of gay people also liked the quest. I don't claim to be an authority on what gay men think. Damn. I am sorry your friend had to go through that. Suffice it to say though I pretty much had the exact...opposite experience. I found the case gut wrenching and deeply emotionally engaging/ troubling. And in thinking about this post there were a lot of moments like that in Inquisition. That and well it did effect me, deeply. Not trying to get personal but I only bring this up for two reasons: First of all that this content can and does effect people in a wide variety of ways. Now this does not mean that this diminishes what you and your friend have gone through but that also doesen't mean that my perspective is just as wrong either. Second, you, correctly mock those the idea that BioWare has a 'gay agenda' (and now I can see why). But I think its just as dubious that BioWare has an agenda of 'appeasing' anyone who is of any bigoted mindset. I doubt that highly given that David Gaider is, as has often been pointed out in this conversation, is gay. This can also extend to pretty much anything we have aready discussed (the mage issue, the Dalish, etc). All BioWare is trying to do here is tell morally complex stories in a realistic world where there are few saints and few demons but a lot of people trying to make the best of a bad situation or making mistakes. I don't think there is any agenda here or any pandering to one side or another, certainly not out of malicious intent. These people do probably have the best of intentions, I think we should all keep that in mind.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 15, 2019 7:41:45 GMT
It sounds like your gripe with the whole scenario is less that Bioware attempted to create a story about someone dealing with the familial tensions of a parent having considered reparative therapy on their behalf, and more that they half-assed it. Using a neat and fluffy and toothless metaphor for something incredibly messy and unsafe and traumatic in real life, completely disrespecting what actual people have gone through. Your response then seems to be that they should have gone all-in so the story actually rang true for you and/or your friend, or not tried at all. I tend to agree, leaning more toward the former than the latter option. In essence, that is what I'm getting at. Personally, I am not sure it's possible to tackle the subject the way I feel it deserves, within the context of a BioWare game. It simply requires more time and resources than can reasonably be allocated, and an altogether different approach. My personal preference would have been to not do it. The previous games, where I could just play a gay character and nobody made a big deal about it, were a nice change from my perspective. But if someone INSISTS on tackling the subject, then yes, my advice is to go hard, and not flinch away from graphic depictions. It should be confronting and uncomfortable, it should make it clear that what goes on in these places is torture, and that children die as a result. My concern is that a game that markets itself on "grey morality" and freedom of choice won't (maybe can't) do that. Certain players will absolutely resist being told that a thing is wholly bad, but trying to "complicate" the issue and make both sides valid means softening the subject matter by necessity.
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 15, 2019 8:42:21 GMT
I don't really see how it is hamfisted in a world of magic for a Tevinter Magister to reach for the magical route. I'd be much more annoyed if they ignored the world they've built and tried to represent the experience based on the real world.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 15, 2019 8:47:50 GMT
That's another thing that bothers about the whole above description too. Dorian's father just didn't *think* about doing the spell/ ritual he actually did it. I rrmember quite clearly that Dorian said something along the lines of 'you tried to change me'. Also he basically left and became estranged which is a pretty extreme reaction for someone who was just *thinking* about doing something. Obviously we don't know the exact details of how far they went into the ritual maybe it didn't work, maybe Dorian was able to flee before the process completed, maybe he found out about it before hand and fled before he could attempt it...but the point is I think the quest made clear that Halward was going to go through with it if Dorian hadn't picked up sticks and fled.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 15, 2019 8:58:53 GMT
My concern is that a game that markets itself on "grey morality" and freedom of choice won't (maybe can't) do that. Certain players will absolutely resist being told that a thing is wholly bad, but trying to "complicate" the issue and make both sides valid means softening the subject matter by necessity. So your fear is that by assigning complex reasons as background for, and complex consequences to, wholly and unarguably monstrous acts in fiction, stories like that rob such acts of the weight they should have with us. And you interpret a desire to go into such complexities as an attempt to normalize these things and indulge morbid fascination? I can see why that would be one's gut reaction. My own experience with dark and appalling acts and events is that while the actual mechanics in play in the moment are usually simple enough to understand, because they're generally a just an extreme expression of basic impulses and old instincts gone wrong, the chains of circumstances and influences that typically lead up to those outbreaks of malice are pretty long and pretty interconnected. My further experience is that to minimize the occurrence of something wrong that systematically turns up, it's not enough to simply decide that it's wrong and shouldn't be encouraged. You have to investigate it, reflect on it, figure out how it works and where it's coming from and different ways to affect that to effectively avoid the issue down the road. No big problem has just one facet, or one simple solution that fixes it completely. You have to work things down to their components so you can start figuring out and combining answers that actually have a chance of functioning as intended. It's the only safe and realistic way to make things better through anything except blind luck. And the only way to do that on a societal level in a democracy is giving the ordinary busy person a stake in the problem, by giving them the feeling of experiencing a bit of the injustice at foot themselves and helping them understand how the perpetration of such things relate to the way they work as people, and why they should be careful, and exactly how this or that measure would thus potentially alleviate the problem. But our brains aren't evolved to easily take in such abstract and empathetic and convoluted and uncomfortable instructions so close to heart just by being lectured at, and told that this is right and that is wrong. That's what we've always used stories for. It's why we invented myths, and eventually codified them into religion, and eventually started writing novels. To weave complex circumstances and factors and influences into a morally instructive narrative that we can personally relate to, so we can incorporate it seamlessly without individually having to break it into pieces and spend forever understanding every facet of every part of the tale that matters, which nobody has ever had the time or energy for. Which is why we need stories about the things that are important to take into consideration in life. And why introducing a bunch of them that completely mischaracterize how human beings work, and trying to abolish the ones that don't, really messes with how people think and talk to each other and approach the world on the ground level. Which is why I enjoy stories that get into the nitty gritty of different kinds of hardships, and why realistically dark role-playing games are the most brilliant medium ever invented for the purpose.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 15, 2019 9:23:55 GMT
I don't really see how it is hamfisted in a world of magic for a Tevinter Magister to reach for the magical route. I'd be much more annoyed if they ignored the world they've built and tried to represent the experience based on the real world. It's not so much that they've used magic as the metaphor. The problem is that it's left completely to the imagination and sounding fairly neat and clean and painless because that's generally just how magic works in the setting. Thus someone who has had any experience with the actual processes may feel disturbed at how emphatically this undercuts the trauma and severe life-altering issues that a real life example of such an operation entails. The way the quest goes in the game, what Dorian is offended by is mainly his father's decision to try to change him against his preferences, while the actual physical and mental consequences of what his father was going to do to him are barely even mentioned. In real life, those can be life-ruining and insanity-inducing, and usually at least stunts the person's development all on their own. Parental disapproval can be overcome a lot of the time, but a messed-up biochemistry stays with you and can make everything a lot more complicated, to say nothing of the terror and misery of being subjected to it against your will. Which is just the modern, chemical and dialogue-based approach. We all know worse methods have been on the table. And that's the part of the issue they completely glossed over for whatever reason. While I now definitely see that the quest can feel insulting to people for whom it's intended to be most relevant, it really is just more reason to think that Bioware is being too careful and tentative rather than too bold and gratuitous with their storytelling.
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Post by Verfallen on Mar 15, 2019 9:50:16 GMT
The way the quest goes in the game, what Dorian is offended by is mainly his father's decision to try to change him against his preferences, while the actually physical and mental consequences of what his father was going to do to him aren't even mentioned. ... Actually, depending on what you ask, he does at least make mention of the possible consequences:
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 15, 2019 9:55:19 GMT
I don't really see how it is hamfisted in a world of magic for a Tevinter Magister to reach for the magical route. I'd be much more annoyed if they ignored the world they've built and tried to represent the experience based on the real world. It's not so much that they've used magic as the metaphor. The problem is that it's left completely to the imagination and sounding fairly neat and clean and painless because that's generally just how magic works in the setting. Thus someone who has had any experience with the actual processes may feel disturbed at how emphatically this undercuts the trauma and severe life-altering issues that a real life example of such an operation entails. The way the quest goes in the game, what Dorian is offended by is mainly his father's decision to try to change him against his preferences, while the actually physical and mental consequences of what his father was going to do to him aren't even mentioned. In real life, those can be life-ruining and insanity-inducing, and usually at least stunts the person's development all on their own. Parental disapproval can be overcome a lot of the time, but a messed-up biochemistry stays with you and can make everything a lot more complicated, to say nothing of the terror and misery of being subjected to it against your will. And that's the part of the issue they completely glossed over for whatever reason. Cole does things to people's minds. I find abhorrent but not out of place in the setting. I don't see how you can go into the physical/mental pain as the spell either failed or dorian foiled it. It would require meeting someone treated with such a spell, seeing how aftereffects have turned the individual into a wreck, removing the spell and hearing them describe the physical pain of being engulfed by it.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 15, 2019 9:56:59 GMT
The way the quest goes in the game, what Dorian is offended by is mainly his father's decision to try to change him against his preferences, while the actually physical and mental consequences of what his father was going to do to him aren't even mentioned. ... Actually, depending on what you ask, he does at least make mention of the possible consequences: Good point, I'd forgotten about that line. Cole does things to people's minds. I find abhorrent but not out of place in the setting. I don't see how you can go into the physical/mental pain as the spell either failed or dorian foiled it. It would require meeting someone treated with such a spell, seeing how aftereffects have turned the individual into a wreck, removing the spell and hearing them describe the physical pain of being engulfed by it. Cole makes tiny and immediate adjustments to people's current thought processes, and he's in a position to know what they actually want to achieve and help them move in that direction. Not quite the same situation. And Dorian should be perfectly able to conjecture about the possible effects in detail. I'm sure a Magister-in-training isn't short on anecdotes about even well-intentioned blood magic and what it feels like and experimentation affecting targets in creepy and unintended ways.
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