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Post by Catilina on Mar 28, 2019 20:30:44 GMT
Who was possessed by Audacity? The young Merrill or the old Marethari? (Marethari) Who was wise to ask for help? The young Merrill or the old Marethari? (Merrill) Who was so idiot who thought, she doesn't need help and acted alone, without anyone knows about what she does, and jeopardized the whole clan with her foolishness? The young Merrill or the old Marethari? (Marethari) and who precipitated all these events? Merill, despite constant warnings from many people including: her keeper, her clan, Hawke, Anders and Fenris. Sure i agree with Fenris here, the Keeper acted foolishly there but she made a choice to sacrifice herself instead of having Merill die. Who precipitated? Tamlen? Noble foolishness, yes. But I think, she sacrificed herself because she didn't want to ask for help (too much pride). It was incredibly stupid. And only Marethari's choice. She was the easier prey to Audacity. I didn't speak about what Merrill did was right or not, but what Marethari did was wrong. And the base was that an older person always wiser than a younger. But this is clearly not right.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 28, 2019 20:31:42 GMT
Mentioning something and insulting it isn't the same thing. I've worked and studied and debated a lot with people with different degrees of Aspergers, and have several close relatives who struggle with PTSD. I wouldn't just joke around with something like that. Edit: Well, okay, I actually might if the mood is right. But I wouldn't insult it, or anyone who suffers from those. Too late. For what, exactly? of course they are. And while i wouldn't have traded the Keeper for Merill, Merill's choices if she were allowed to make them would have gotten her killed and god help low town if Hawke wasn't there to stop it. There is absolutely no evidence of that being what would happen. There kind of is. As previously pointed out, she's fooled pretty easily by a demon in Night Terrors.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2019 20:35:50 GMT
Thanks. Well, it's been 8 years, so let's say Merrill's questline was not her masterpiece and leave it at that. Looking at the characters she wrote, Merrill was the high point of her so far. It was better than Sten, Loghain, Varric, or Vivienne. Hmm, seems par for the course for her. Deeply flawed characters with unorthodox, perhaps even provocative points of view that challenge what the player "knows". If anything, Varric is the odd one out in her collection.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 28, 2019 20:36:04 GMT
You've already done what you say you don't, so I don't believe you. As for Night Terrors, to be honest that quest is very messy with a lot of things contradicting themselves in it. Plus it felt like it ignored the characters just to have a concept of them joining a demon against you. For example Fenris would also never fall and take that deal. The only companion who doesn't fall for a demon is the one who is already possessed by one.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 28, 2019 20:37:15 GMT
There is absolutely no evidence of that being what would happen. There kind of is. As previously pointed out, she's fooled pretty easily by a demon in Night Terrors. Just like everyone else except Anders/Justice – for obvious reasons. Not mentioned: that was another thing. It can be a clue, not an evidence.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2019 20:40:06 GMT
You've already done what you say you don't, so I don't believe you. As for Night Terrors, to be honest that quest is very messy with a lot of things contradicting themselves in it. Plus it felt like it ignored the characters just to have a concept of them joining a demon against you. For example Fenris would also never fall and take that deal. The only companion who doesn't fall for a demon is the one who is already possessed by one. I think it demonstrates just how tricky and dangerous demons are, and how easily they can get inside people's heads if you let your guard down around them. How they can play on hopes, fears, and desires. I wish there were more quests like that, tbh. And when you look at it, The only companion who didn't fall for a demons was the one WHO WAS ALREADY A DEMON! That's Justice you are dealing with in the Fade, not Anders.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 28, 2019 20:43:42 GMT
and who precipitated all these events? Merill, despite constant warnings from many people including: her keeper, her clan, Hawke, Anders and Fenris. Sure i agree with Fenris here, the Keeper acted foolishly there but she made a choice to sacrifice herself instead of having Merill die. Who precipitated? Tamlen? Noble foolishness, yes. But I think, she sacrificed herself because she didn't want to ask for help (too much pride). It was incredibly stupid. And only Marethari's choice. She was the easier prey to Audacity. I didn't speak about what Merrill did was right or not, but what Marethari did was wrong. And the base was that an older person always wiser than a younger. But this is clearly not right. you are certainly right there. I did find it the height of irony that the Keeper was possessed by a pride demon.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 28, 2019 20:48:09 GMT
Who precipitated? Tamlen? Noble foolishness, yes. But I think, she sacrificed herself because she didn't want to ask for help (too much pride). It was incredibly stupid. And only Marethari's choice. She was the easier prey to Audacity. I didn't speak about what Merrill did was right or not, but what Marethari did was wrong. And the base was that an older person always wiser than a younger. But this is clearly not right. you are certainly right there. I did find it the height of irony that the Keeper was possessed by a pride demon. It's almost like she was the target the whole time and was manipulated to drive away the one person who might have noticed something before the possession was complete. But no, it's just the autistic girl shouldn't be trusted with things because those people don't have the right mindsets so need to be put in their place.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2019 21:01:14 GMT
Who precipitated? Tamlen? Noble foolishness, yes. But I think, she sacrificed herself because she didn't want to ask for help (too much pride). It was incredibly stupid. And only Marethari's choice. She was the easier prey to Audacity. I didn't speak about what Merrill did was right or not, but what Marethari did was wrong. And the base was that an older person always wiser than a younger. But this is clearly not right. you are certainly right there. I did find it the height of irony that the Keeper was possessed by a pride demon. "Pride" was pretty much a driving force for a lot of DA2...
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 28, 2019 21:09:33 GMT
You've already done what you say you don't, so I don't believe you. As for Night Terrors, to be honest that quest is very messy with a lot of things contradicting themselves in it. Plus it felt like it ignored the characters just to have a concept of them joining a demon against you. For example Fenris would also never fall and take that deal. The only companion who doesn't fall for a demon is the one who is already possessed by one. I don't see that I have, as a matter of fact. And I also don't see the need for me to talk you out of feeling offended or blocking me if that's what you think you need to. The quest definitely feels messy and railroading, but I think that's because the writers wanted to make the point that demons really can be insidious and catch pretty much anyone in the wrong moment or frame of mind to resist. Not that Hawke's party are paragons of mental stability in general. That they couldn't really make the scenario feel believable doesn't change that it's canon and should be part of Hawke's deliberation when judging the reliability of his/her companions. Specifically Merril's insistence that she's careful enough not to be compromised. I'm not denying that Marethari handles the situation even worse, while age and experience are fairly reliable predictors of wisdom they obviously don't guarantee it, but that doesn't make Merril's circumstance any less unhealthy and ill-conceived if one cares more about her happiness and well-being than whatever historical or cultural artifact she hopes to restore. Certainly none of my Hawkes have felt particularly invested in elven history or culture or magic beyond his/her good friend Merril who is apparently ruining her life and risking even more over it. I do agree with you about the autodialogue. And it'd also just be nice if there was more to say, besides just asking questions. It's hard to feel like a protagonist with agency when every conversation is 95% people speaking at you and then you occasionally uttering a short noncommittal line. As much player dialogue as possible, please and thank you. I know that's a lot of lines to record, but it'd do so much to make me feel more at home in my characters. And I'd eagerly sacrifice main character voiceover to get the old dialogue trees back.
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 28, 2019 21:41:47 GMT
I pretty much find the keeper’s behavior loathsome. My hawke’s generally either actively support merrill as they see the merit in what she’s doing or passively accept her passion.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 28, 2019 21:57:59 GMT
This conversation does make me wonder if i haven't been too hard on Merill. Not saying i don't think the raw anger my Hawke felt after the fact wasn't justified nor am i changing my mind over Merill's culpability in the end of her quest. I just hadn't fully considered how the actions of the Keeper and Hawke could have pushed her into making worse choices. IF everyone was open and honest with one another then MAYBE all the interested parties could've gathered, helped her complete the Eluvian and then dealt with the demon.
Sadly though this remains a what if scenario because the more divergent the choices the more you have to program. And bioware was clearly interested in setting up a tragedy, the flaws of Merill and the Keeper...their mutual pride... Made it difficult to achieve
But this is something bioware should keep in mind when considering DA 4. Because this kind of thing suggests a lot about tone and you shouldn't necessarily railroad the player into a forced tone, but then the question is could they have still gotten the same message across in terms of theme and lore if they gave us the option for a perfect outcome? I think so.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 28, 2019 22:28:50 GMT
you are certainly right there. I did find it the height of irony that the Keeper was possessed by a pride demon. It's almost like she was the target the whole time and was manipulated to drive away the one person who might have noticed something before the possession was complete. But no, it's just the autistic girl shouldn't be trusted with things because those people don't have the right mindsets so need to be put in their place. Pride demons are extremely intelligent and manipulative, so I’d say it was aiming for either, depending on the situation. I already said in other times my opinion on the whole plot, and I mantain my opinion that both Merril and Marethari were wrong in their actions, with the latter (it not their fellow clan mates) being dumber, because while she did protect Merril, it was at least likely that the demon would have tried to kill Merril later on. But Merril’s countermeasures weren’t well thought either. I understand She trusted Hawke’s ability in killing the demon if it’d have possessed her, but you can never be sure to win when facing demons. And if Hawke would’ve lost, the demon would’ve wiped out her clan. But the quest is similar in realization and results to lots of quest in DA2, where no matter what you, the end results are negative...
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Post by Sifr on Mar 29, 2019 7:01:31 GMT
What Merrill really needed was an intervention. Agreed. Varric and Hawke on the Rival path did seem to try to effect mini-interventions with her on several occasions, but they never went far enough to actually make her realise that her fixation on the Eluvian was unhealthy and negatively impacting her relationships with the people around her.
Mentioning something and insulting it isn't the same thing. I've worked and studied and debated a lot with people with different degrees of Aspergers, and have several close relatives who struggle with PTSD. I wouldn't just joke around with something like that. Edit: Well, okay, I actually might if the mood is right. But I wouldn't insult it, or anyone who suffers from those. As someone with Aspergers/HFA, I'm not offended at the suggestion that Merrill may be somewhere on the spectrum.
I personally don't think she is, nor do I think she was written that way intentionally... but as long as no-one's throwing the suggestion around in a negative fashion, I see no issue with people being allowed to freely speculate about it?
(Besides, I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise, since I've speculated before about Leliana potentially having Dependent Personality Disorder)
The project had merit. The methods were reckless and extremely dangerous both to herself and those around her (her clan and Kirkwall). Merrill's situation with the Eluvian kinda reminds me of David Hahn, the guy who attempted to build a homemade breeder reactor in his mother's potting shed at the age of 17.
No-one can deny that he lacked the ambition, intelligence and technical know-how to try to build a homemade reactor from scratch... but that obviously doesn't excuse the monumental stupidity of a teenager messing around nuclear material, in the middle of a heavily residential area, without anyone knowing what he was doing, nor any apparent concern for his own safety or the people around him.
Same with Merrill, you can't deny that she lacked the ambition, intelligence and technical knowledge to rebuild an Eluvian from broken shards... but that obvious doesn't excuse the monumental stupidity of messing around with an ancient magical artefact (that she doesn't even know the intended function of), in the middle of a heavily populated city, without anyone knowing what she was doing, nor any concern for her own safety or the people around her.
Who even knows where the Eluvian might have connected to, had she been successful?
Merrill's Eluvian might have connected to the Deep Roads, which would have explained where the Darkspawn in the Elven ruin kept coming from, as well as where Tamlen disappeared to after he touched the mirror. Imagine the chaos that would have resulted from Merrill unlocking it... only to accidentally open a door for the Darkspawn, letting them waltz right into the middle of Lowtown?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 29, 2019 7:48:31 GMT
Mary Kirby did say Merrill could be seen as on the autism spectrum. She wasn’t written with that in mind, but if people see her that way she accepts it as a valid interpretation (which made me quite happy).
As for where the Eluvian led, we see that it led to the Crossroads since if repaired you can see it among them when Morrigan shows the Inquisitor.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 29, 2019 8:50:55 GMT
As for where the Eluvian led, we see that it led to the Crossroads since if repaired you can see it among them when Morrigan shows the Inquisitor. I dunno, the devs have a habit of often reusing old assets.
Hawke's family crest can be seen a couple times dotted about on the walls in Future Redcliffe, yet there's no plot or lore related reason why it should have been there. Same with all the Eluvian frames that can be randomly spotted throughout Origins (Circle Tower, Soldier's Peak, Blood Mage Hideout), which could be real Eluvians or were only intended to be set dressing?
Merrill's Eluvian shares the same model as the Mirror of Transfiguration in the Black Emporium and we see another mirror with that frame in Morrigan's study in the Winter Palace. I suppose it's not out of the question that the one in her study could be Merrill's mirror thoug, but as she already has an intact one at her disposal, I don't know why she'd bother with one MacGyvered together except for study?
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 29, 2019 9:46:51 GMT
Pretty sure there's multiple copies of merril's mirror model in the part of the crossroads morrigan takes you to (though most of them you need flycam to see). So it seems possible it's just an asset reuse. Unless their trying to convey that this is something that happens to eluvians when they're corrupted/damaged? To sort of get back on topic, I hope they don’t do the autodialogue based on what option you choose the most again. Really the less autodialogue the better. Agreed, my character saying things without my input is annoying enough without them also choosing the emotional state/tone they use too. Just because I choose one option more often doesn't mean i want that tone in any and every situation.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 29, 2019 21:59:04 GMT
Mary Kirby did say Merrill could be seen as on the autism spectrum. She wasn’t written with that in mind, but if people see her that way she accepts it as a valid interpretation (which made me quite happy). As for where the Eluvian led, we see that it led to the Crossroads since if repaired you can see it among them when Morrigan shows the Inquisitor. As someone else on the autism spectrum, I hate this. I hate this a lot.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 29, 2019 23:13:45 GMT
Mary Kirby did say Merrill could be seen as on the autism spectrum. She wasn’t written with that in mind, but if people see her that way she accepts it as a valid interpretation (which made me quite happy). As for where the Eluvian led, we see that it led to the Crossroads since if repaired you can see it among them when Morrigan shows the Inquisitor. As someone else on the autism spectrum, I hate this. I hate this a lot. Why do you hate that Merrill can be seen as on the spectrum?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 30, 2019 0:30:13 GMT
As someone else on the autism spectrum, I hate this. I hate this a lot. Why do you hate that Merrill can be seen as on the spectrum? 1) If it's not explicit, it's not representation, and no credit should be given. 2) Merrill has been the target of ableist slurs in the past, on OGBSN and on this forum, and that makes reading her as having a disability problematic. People use those words to describe her *because they think she is stupid* 3) Whenever someone in this fandom says they "read" someone as gay/disabled/mentally ill, it is always, ALWAYS because they perceive the character as fitting a negative stereotype about that group.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 30, 2019 9:52:16 GMT
Why do you hate that Merrill can be seen as on the spectrum? 1) If it's not explicit, it's not representation, and no credit should be given. 2) Merrill has been the target of ableist slurs in the past, on OGBSN and on this forum, and that makes reading her as having a disability problematic. People use those words to describe her *because they think she is stupid* 3) Whenever someone in this fandom says they "read" someone as gay/disabled/mentally ill, it is always, ALWAYS because they perceive the character as fitting a negative stereotype about that group. As someone else on the spectrum, though thankfully only just, I think that's hilarious. People love Merril, because of or in spite of her idiosyncrasies. It's not "problematic" or "ableist" to acknowledge someone's limitations being analogous to a modern diagnosis, making that person more vulnerable to seduction than someone without the same problem, and it's certainly not the same as thinking that she's stupid.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 30, 2019 11:11:58 GMT
1) If it's not explicit, it's not representation, and no credit should be given. 2) Merrill has been the target of ableist slurs in the past, on OGBSN and on this forum, and that makes reading her as having a disability problematic. People use those words to describe her *because they think she is stupid* 3) Whenever someone in this fandom says they "read" someone as gay/disabled/mentally ill, it is always, ALWAYS because they perceive the character as fitting a negative stereotype about that group. As someone else on the spectrum, though thankfully only just, I think that's hilarious. People love Merril, because of or in spite of her idiosyncrasies. It's not "problematic" or "ableist" to acknowledge someone's limitations being analogous to a modern diagnosis, making that person more vulnerable to seduction than someone without the same problem, and it's certainly not the same as thinking that she's stupid. I think pessimistpanda is talking about the people that dislike and hate Merril using her possible autism in a negative way or assimilating with her being dumb.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 30, 2019 11:55:05 GMT
As someone else on the spectrum, though thankfully only just, I think that's hilarious. People love Merril, because of or in spite of her idiosyncrasies. It's not "problematic" or "ableist" to acknowledge someone's limitations being analogous to a modern diagnosis, making that person more vulnerable to seduction than someone without the same problem, and it's certainly not the same as thinking that she's stupid. I think pessimistpanda is talking about the people that dislike and hate Merril using her possible autism in a negative way or assimilating with her being dumb. ...And off-handedly and explicitly assuming that everyone who associates her behavior with a real world disorder at all is doing so, calling this forum a shithole on that basis. Yup, I got it too.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 30, 2019 14:33:28 GMT
I think pessimistpanda is talking about the people that dislike and hate Merril using her possible autism in a negative way or assimilating with her being dumb. ...And off-handedly and explicitly assuming that everyone who associates her with a real world disorder at all is doing so, calling this forum a shithole on that basis. Yup, I got it too. I’d say he overexaggerate, and on that I agree with you. Expecially since it was clear that Hanako’s opinion was positive on the topic.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 30, 2019 14:57:47 GMT
Why do you hate that Merrill can be seen as on the spectrum? 1) If it's not explicit, it's not representation, and no credit should be given. 2) Merrill has been the target of ableist slurs in the past, on OGBSN and on this forum, and that makes reading her as having a disability problematic. People use those words to describe her *because they think she is stupid* 3) Whenever someone in this fandom says they "read" someone as gay/disabled/mentally ill, it is always, ALWAYS because they perceive the character as fitting a negative stereotype about that group. If by "ableist", you mean valuing people who can do things higher than those who can't, well, yes, I definitely do that. In fiction and IRL. Deal with it. As for Merrill, I value her quite a bit based on that very metric because she's intelligent and doesn't subscribe to traditionalist preconceptions.
You, meanwhile, come across as an extremist with nothing but preconceptions, who thinks in stereotypes and has no appreciation for individual opinions, and that *your* preconceptions aren't of the traditionalist kind makes them only marginally less unpalatable.
I'd rather have more Merrills on this forum.
@all: Sorry for going somewhat OT, but I couldn't leave the post uncommented.
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