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Post by Ieldra on Mar 31, 2019 17:20:45 GMT
Oh, it's not that Bioware has tried to portray the Qunari in a particularly positive light before, they definitely haven't. The issue is that shedding more light on Qunari society is eventually going to have to illustrate how the writers actually imagine a nation dominated by what is essentially totalitarian communism and the eradication of individuality on a political level, not unlike what we saw in Mao's China and in the worst days of the Soviet Union. The problem with that is that a lot of the philosophy behind those doctrines has a pretty strong foothold in modern day western academia and radical left-wing politics. Which are loud. For that reason the actual history of communism isn't taught or talked about much these days, despite it involving by far the greatest and best-documented mass-murders and most catastrophic attempts at social engineering in modern history. Which some would argue is an abject failure to learn from our mistakes. The question is whether the devs are going to dare to go there for real for fear of disturbing people who still identify with and even preach some of those philosophies adapted to the modern climate, or soften and whitewash it and disturb anyone who knows anything about the actual history it reflects. As you say, it's not like Bioware has failed to make the Qunari feel like murderous zealots throughout the series so far. We're just hoping they won't get cold feet if the spotlight does move over to Par Vollen and we really get to see how messed up and dysfunctional their society realistically would be based on what we already know about it. In the same sense that nobody would want the game to feature a fantasy version of Nazi Germany, only inexplicably functioning perfectly and happily despite their ideology. Not trying to start a political or philosophical discussion, just clarifying why some of us are hoping that we get to see and treat the Qunari with warts and all, and will be concerned if we don't. There are collectivist and totalitarian ideologies beyond communism, and the Qun reminds me as much of Plato's Republic and Confucianism as it does Marxism. I also wouldn't call it a religion. In fact, the Qun is easily my favorite aspect of the DA setting, and that has a lot to do with how it isn't quite like anything from either real life or previous popular fiction. Imagine that, a genuinely novel society in speculative fiction! My ideal DA game would ditch all the ancient evils and just focus on the Qunari as the main antagonist; it's been set up plenty and it would make for a much more compelling narrative. It helps that you can kind of see why some would find it appealing — the other Thedosian societies are deeply flawed as well, and for certain groups life under the Qun may genuinely be an improvement — but surrendering all of your personal freedom is a pretty big admission price. A close up look at Qunari society and what it means to be part of it is something I've been anticipating since DA:O. But I really don't want the Qun turned into a hamfisted allegory for communism. If that's the intention, it really is not a good analogy, and it would hurt the uniqueness of the concept. The field is ripe for all manner of thematic exploration, about the value and the limits of freedom, social responsibility, and meritocracy; there's no need to involve modern political systems that don't exist in Thedas. I believe the audience is perceptive enough that parallels will inevitably arise without any need to spell them out. I agree that the Qun as the attempt to realize a genuinely novel society was rather well done. In DAO and in DA2. Particularly in DA2, where the story told quite well how the Qun might be attractive to certain groups in spite of its downsides while being anathema to others. It's why the Arishok was such a compelling character - you could understand his perspective but passionately disagree at the same time. Also, DA2 never attempted to soften the Qun's alienness. In DAI, as I see it, an otherwise very minor story element did quite a bit of damage to that idea by reinterpreting core elements so that they could be connected to RL sociopolitical controversies. Elements of the Qun were always applicable to RL political ideologies - after all, collectivist ideologies exist IRL and that's enough to make those elements applicable - but such application had rarely been made. Thus, its uniqueness was preserved and people could discuss it without automatically associating it with RL ideologies and politics. If Bioware continues the way they started in DAI, that separation will be lost and people will increasingly discuss it in terms of RL politics. That would be bad IMO.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 31, 2019 18:58:21 GMT
There are collectivist and totalitarian ideologies beyond communism, and the Qun reminds me as much of Plato's Republic and Confucianism as it does Marxism. I also wouldn't call it a religion. In fact, the Qun is easily my favorite aspect of the DA setting, and that has a lot to do with how it isn't quite like anything from either real life or previous popular fiction. Imagine that, a genuinely novel society in speculative fiction! My ideal DA game would ditch all the ancient evils and just focus on the Qunari as the main antagonist; it's been set up plenty and it would make for a much more compelling narrative. It helps that you can kind of see why some would find it appealing — the other Thedosian societies are deeply flawed as well, and for certain groups life under the Qun may genuinely be an improvement — but surrendering all of your personal freedom is a pretty big admission price. A close up look at Qunari society and what it means to be part of it is something I've been anticipating since DA:O. But I really don't want the Qun turned into a hamfisted allegory for communism. If that's the intention, it really is not a good analogy, and it would hurt the uniqueness of the concept. The field is ripe for all manner of thematic exploration, about the value and the limits of freedom, social responsibility, and meritocracy; there's no need to involve modern political systems that don't exist in Thedas. I believe the audience is perceptive enough that parallels will inevitably arise without any need to spell them out. I agree that the Qun as the attempt to realize a genuinely novel society was rather well done. In DAO and in DA2. Particularly in DA2, where the story told quite well how the Qun might be attractive to certain groups in spite of its downsides while being anathema to others. It's why the Arishok was such a compelling character - you could understand his perspective but passionately disagree at the same time. Also, DA2 never attempted to soften the Qun's alienness. In DAI, as I see it, an otherwise very minor story element did quite a bit of damage to that idea by reinterpreting core elements so that they could be connected to RL sociopolitical controversies. Elements of the Qun were always applicable to RL political ideologies - after all, collectivist ideologies exist IRL and that's enough to make those elements applicable - but such application had rarely been made. Thus, its uniqueness was preserved and people could discuss it without automatically associating it with RL ideologies and politics. If Bioware continues the way they started in DAI, that separation will be lost and people will increasingly discuss it in terms of RL politics. That would be bad IMO.
while i do agree it was a dangerous precedent to set most of the political stuff came from Bull... Who wasn't the most reliable narrator. About the Qun in general i think they are ripe to be the main "down and gritty" antagonists, the microchasm for Solas's macrochasm.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 31, 2019 19:35:57 GMT
@ noxluxe: I have no idea what you're talking about. We know how the Qun runs things. It's bad. Nobody pretends it isn't bad. Could you provide an example of what you're worried about happening? You're welcome, in fact I'd encourage you, to read up on that part of history yourself if you're curious, and the dynamics and numbers of casualties involved, and how quickly it has escalated into complete disaster every time such systems have been attempted in real life. Then I believe you would see my meaning. As I said, I was clarifying and not debating or discussing. It really is way too grim and loaded a subject to get properly into on this forum, let alone this thread. Oh, I know that history already. I didn't know what you were talking about WRT DA4. Ambiguous post, my bad. What are you worried about happening, exactly?
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 31, 2019 19:37:31 GMT
In DAI, as I see it, an otherwise very minor story element did quite a bit of damage to that idea by reinterpreting core elements so that they could be connected to RL sociopolitical controversies. Elements of the Qun were always applicable to RL political ideologies - after all, collectivist ideologies exist IRL and that's enough to make those elements applicable - but such application had rarely been made. Thus, its uniqueness was preserved and people could discuss it without automatically associating it with RL ideologies and politics. If Bioware continues the way they started in DAI, that separation will be lost and people will increasingly discuss it in terms of RL politics. That would be bad IMO. Aren't we already doing that right here, right now?
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Post by Iakus on Mar 31, 2019 19:58:16 GMT
I agree that the Qun as the attempt to realize a genuinely novel society was rather well done. In DAO and in DA2. Particularly in DA2, where the story told quite well how the Qun might be attractive to certain groups in spite of its downsides while being anathema to others. It's why the Arishok was such a compelling character - you could understand his perspective but passionately disagree at the same time. Also, DA2 never attempted to soften the Qun's alienness. In DAI, as I see it, an otherwise very minor story element did quite a bit of damage to that idea by reinterpreting core elements so that they could be connected to RL sociopolitical controversies. Elements of the Qun were always applicable to RL political ideologies - after all, collectivist ideologies exist IRL and that's enough to make those elements applicable - but such application had rarely been made. Thus, its uniqueness was preserved and people could discuss it without automatically associating it with RL ideologies and politics. If Bioware continues the way they started in DAI, that separation will be lost and people will increasingly discuss it in terms of RL politics. That would be bad IMO.
while i do agree it was a dangerous precedent to set most of the political stuff came from Bull... Who wasn't the most reliable narrator. About the Qun in general i think they are ripe to be the main "down and gritty" antagonists, the microchasm for Solas's macrochasm. For the moment, I'm assuming IB was lying to himself, trying to convince himself that the Chargers would actually be accepted under the Qun, rather than be killed or brainwashed. A lot of what he says simply doesn't make any sense otherwise.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 31, 2019 20:11:01 GMT
In DAI, as I see it, an otherwise very minor story element did quite a bit of damage to that idea by reinterpreting core elements so that they could be connected to RL sociopolitical controversies. Elements of the Qun were always applicable to RL political ideologies - after all, collectivist ideologies exist IRL and that's enough to make those elements applicable - but such application had rarely been made. Thus, its uniqueness was preserved and people could discuss it without automatically associating it with RL ideologies and politics. If Bioware continues the way they started in DAI, that separation will be lost and people will increasingly discuss it in terms of RL politics. That would be bad IMO. Aren't we already doing that right here, right now? Yes....and we didn't do it nearly to the same degree before DAI.
Q.e.d.
Now, the question is whether Bioware wants players to discuss the Qun independently from any current hot-topic RL associations as far as possible or not... I'd rather have the discussion not infected by RL political tribalism, and more along general political philosophy. There are RL ideas enough to connect to without doing that, and getting mired in current controversies is a recipe for toxicity.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 31, 2019 20:20:06 GMT
while i do agree it was a dangerous precedent to set most of the political stuff came from Bull... Who wasn't the most reliable narrator. About the Qun in general i think they are ripe to be the main "down and gritty" antagonists, the microchasm for Solas's macrochasm. For the moment, I'm assuming IB was lying to himself, trying to convince himself that the Chargers would actually be accepted under the Qun, rather than be killed or brainwashed. A lot of what he says simply doesn't make any sense otherwise. that is certainly one interpretation.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 31, 2019 21:36:50 GMT
What does IB say about the Chargers under the Qun? I remember what he said about various inquisition members, but nothing about the Chargers. I'd look it up, but I get too much search noise from the Chargers/Qun choice in his mission.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 31, 2019 21:41:42 GMT
Aren't we already doing that right here, right now? Yes....and we didn't do it nearly to the same degree before DAI.
Q.e.d.
Now, the question is whether Bioware wants players to discuss the Qun independently from any current hot-topic RL associations as far as possible or not... I'd rather have the discussion not infected by RL political tribalism, and more along general political philosophy. There are RL ideas enough to connect to without doing that, and getting mired in current controversies is a recipe for toxicity.
Can we unring that bell? I doubt we're going back to some place where nobody's going to talk about the Qun without bringing up RL philosophies. Although such debate as we have is driven by you guys who are worried about this. It's almost like you're concern-trolling yourselves.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 31, 2019 22:04:58 GMT
What does IB say about the Chargers under the Qun? I remember what he said about various inquisition members, but nothing about the Chargers. I'd look it up, but I get too much search noise from the Chargers/Qun choice in his mission. The Chargers are all renegades who couldn't live under the rules of society. There's little reason to think they wouldn't chafe under the Qun as well (Does anyone seriously think Dalish wouldn't end up chained to an Arvaarad with her mouth sewn shut,. for example)?
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 31, 2019 23:25:12 GMT
Yes....and we didn't do it nearly to the same degree before DAI.
Q.e.d.
Now, the question is whether Bioware wants players to discuss the Qun independently from any current hot-topic RL associations as far as possible or not... I'd rather have the discussion not infected by RL political tribalism, and more along general political philosophy. There are RL ideas enough to connect to without doing that, and getting mired in current controversies is a recipe for toxicity.
Can we unring that bell? I doubt we're going back to some place where nobody's going to talk about the Qun without bringing up RL philosophies. Although such debate as we have is driven by you guys who are worried about this. It's almost like you're concern-trolling yourselves. Ugh, I throw up a little in my mouth every time I'm forced to look up some silly new internet term. Based on a quick google, I have a hard time following your meaning in that second sentence. That said, I made a mistake earlier and projected a bit too much while reading Ieldra's(no idea how to tag someone) original explanation. We don't seem to be on the exact same page on this issue, and I was the one who made assumptions. Maybe that clears it up a little. As for unringing the bell. At the risk of putting more words in her mouth, I imagine that she means that it would be a bad idea to 'ring the bell even harder', and make the issue even more contentious and impossible to consider and discuss civilly as an interesting fantasy hypothetical. Which makes sense. I shouldn't have gotten my hackles up. No excuses. Sorry, guys. That was a dumb way to try to join in.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 31, 2019 23:25:33 GMT
What does IB say about the Chargers under the Qun? I remember what he said about various inquisition members, but nothing about the Chargers. I'd look it up, but I get too much search noise from the Chargers/Qun choice in his mission. The Chargers are all renegades who couldn't live under the rules of society. There's little reason to think they wouldn't chafe under the Qun as well (Does anyone seriously think Dalish wouldn't end up chained to an Arvaarad with her mouth sewn shut,. for example)? I don’t, since Dalish is a bas-saarebas so would immediately be killed in case they were possessed.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 1, 2019 0:11:31 GMT
What does IB say about the Chargers under the Qun? I remember what he said about various inquisition members, but nothing about the Chargers. I'd look it up, but I get too much search noise from the Chargers/Qun choice in his mission. The Chargers are all renegades who couldn't live under the rules of society. There's little reason to think they wouldn't chafe under the Qun as well (Does anyone seriously think Dalish wouldn't end up chained to an Arvaarad with her mouth sewn shut,. for example)? Sure. But I figure TIB would be as clear about that as he was about Sera's fate under the Qun.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 1, 2019 1:43:16 GMT
Can we unring that bell? I doubt we're going back to some place where nobody's going to talk about the Qun without bringing up RL philosophies. Although such debate as we have is driven by you guys who are worried about this. It's almost like you're concern-trolling yourselves. Ugh, I throw up a little in my mouth every time I'm forced to look up some silly new internet term. Based on a quick google, I have a hard time following your meaning in that second sentence. That said, I made a mistake earlier and projected a bit too much while reading Ieldra's(no idea how to tag someone) original explanation. We don't seem to be on the exact same page on this issue, and I was the one who made assumptions. Maybe that clears it up a little. As for unringing the bell. At the risk of putting more words in her mouth, I imagine that she means that it would be a bad idea to 'ring the bell even harder', and make the issue even more contentious and impossible to consider and discuss civilly as an interesting fantasy hypothetical. Which makes sense. I shouldn't have gotten my hackles up. No excuses. Sorry, guys. That was a dumb way to try to join in. Well, concern trolling isn't that new a phrase. It's at least a decade old. And the concept it references goes back a long time. Anyway, glad to give you an opportunity for more education, I guess. As for the application, a concern troll will typically bring up a (non)issue in a bad-faith effort to drive a group's discourse in unproductive or toxic directions. When the guys talking about how this is a bad kind of discussion to have are the guys who are causing the discussion to happen in the first place... My personal take is that there isn't an actual problem. Discussing the RW is what speculative fiction is for.
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Post by river82 on Apr 1, 2019 2:03:58 GMT
Discussing the RW is what speculative fiction is for. The first thing to do would be to accurately define speculative fiction, because there are a few floating around. The most broad, and the one that makes the most sense imo, definition is that speculative fiction includes any piece of work which takes place in a reality other than our own. Fantasy, Science fiction, Supernatural fiction etc. And considering a large part of supernatural fiction is just light romance stuff, this definition isn't the best one for that assertion. There is another meaning floating around that says something like "science fiction stories that deal with human problems" but I don't think Bioware has ever done this. In any case, I don't know who told you that discussing the real world is what speculative fiction is for, but they were likely trying to force their opinion on what the genre SHOULD be, not what it is. Like those who think all science fiction should be hard science fiction delving only into how future tech will affect our world, and that loose and light sci fi space operas have no place. At the end of the day the point of fiction is to tell a story. You can choose to include real world themes in your story but that's a personal choice.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 1, 2019 2:13:27 GMT
Ugh, I throw up a little in my mouth every time I'm forced to look up some silly new internet term. Based on a quick google, I have a hard time following your meaning in that second sentence. That said, I made a mistake earlier and projected a bit too much while reading Ieldra's(no idea how to tag someone) original explanation. We don't seem to be on the exact same page on this issue, and I was the one who made assumptions. Maybe that clears it up a little. As for unringing the bell. At the risk of putting more words in her mouth, I imagine that she means that it would be a bad idea to 'ring the bell even harder', and make the issue even more contentious and impossible to consider and discuss civilly as an interesting fantasy hypothetical. Which makes sense. I shouldn't have gotten my hackles up. No excuses. Sorry, guys. That was a dumb way to try to join in. Well, concern trolling isn't that new a phrase. It's at least a decade old. And the concept it references goes back a long time. Anyway, glad to give you an opportunity for more education, I guess. As for the application, a concern troll will typically bring up a (non)issue in a bad-faith effort to drive a group's discourse in unproductive or toxic directions. When the guys talking about how this is a bad kind of discussion to have are the guys who are causing the discussion to happen in the first place... My personal take is that there isn't an actual problem. Discussing the RW is what speculative fiction is for. That isn't any of the definitions of the term I'm finding, or the timeline of it that others seem to have, but whatever. As I said, Ieldra's and my position aren't exactly the same, and I started out making assumptions about that. Sorry to confuse, but there being discrepancies between our approaches to the topic isn't evidence of bad-faith anything, much less that there's no issue to discuss. Just me being hasty and clumsy. And for the third time, the meat and potential controversy of the topic really is too grim and loaded to get into in any detail on this forum. I seriously can't imagine you understanding the history behind it without understanding that.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 1, 2019 11:17:18 GMT
Wouldn't people have complained about being forced into a major mission that way? One of the core features of OW games is that you get to pick and choose the things you want to do, and when you do them. Which, yes, does mean that they're never going to take time and distance seriously. So far as you know the first time around, you already commit yourself to doing a main story quest upon traveling all the way to the Western Approach and interrupting the first ritual. Except it turns out just to be a two-minute confrontation with a minor reveal. At least giving you the choice of sending for reinforcements and continuing the campaign against the Wardens immediately as an alternative to dragging your ass all the way back to Skyhold and then back again just to coordinate would have made sense and not totally broken immersion. There are tons of inventive ways to make each quest feel like an actually planned excursion while leaving it open to being completed at any time so far as the player is concerned. Give me any two quests in the series and I'll give you a plausible headcanon rationale for putting one of them off in favor of the other, and time being treated semi-realistically wouldn't really interfere with that. Quest writers just never cared enough to make the effort, and in gameplay it feels like they don't expect us to need consistent storytelling, which is annoying as hell when that's exactly why you play the game. I'm not saying that I'd want every quest to have an explicit timetable and every trip to another location to have marked duration and dates, but just giving you the feeling that time passes in the setting and might be worth thinking about wouldn't take nearly that much. Just a few characters occasionally, vaguely using days or weeks when referring to an upcoming event doesn't keep you from doing other things in the meantime while still giving you a sense that things progress throughout the setting in a somewhat rational fashion. Traveling back and forth across a whole continent with medieval travel methods four times between three fairly short consecutive main story quests... doesn't. I would rather like for a Bioware game to take time and distance seriously. Apart from simple realism, that would add a strategic element to the game. The thing is, that requires time limits, and people as a rule hate those, even if they're generous. You'd need the mindset of a strategy game player to appreciate them, i.e. a mindset that accepts that you have several ways to spend your resources but you can only spend them once, and total supply is effectively limited. It may still be possible to do everything, but that requires careful planning.
I'm just playing such a game in Pathfinder:Kingmaker. I'm confronted with setups like this: I have events lined up for my advisors to deal with, and work on a current event ends in 6 days, after which I should select a new one as fast as possible in order not to squander valuable advisor time. So I have 6 days in which I can go exploring unknown lands and deal with quests, plus up to, say 4 days because time isn't *that* scarce and maybe I can deal with two advisors at the same time if I make it 12 days in total. I have a number of quests to attend to and I can estimate the total travel time. Now, do I want to go foraging while traveling, which takes time, or do I take supplies with me, which uses up valuable carrying capacity but saves about half a day per use depending on the hunting skills in the party? Of course I don't know which fights I'm going to have, so I don't know how often I'll have to rest up to heal, but I have a loose estimate for my expedition and everything I do while doing those quests will be influenced by the fact that I want to be back in regions owned by me ASAP because only from there can I give orders to my advisors.
And that's just the surface. There are main plot events you need to attend to almost on the day with low tolerances, with the threat of epic disaster looming if you don't, there are activities that require your continuous personal presence, which means you can't travel in that time, there's the fact that you need to upgrade your advisors because later events become more difficult to deal with, and that takes time, there's buildings that help with everything, mid-game teleportation circles but only to settlements of which there is one per region, so better place them well when you first create them, and so on, and so on.
Personally, I love it. The time limits are generous enough that you can do everything with a moderate amount of planning and several in-game months to spare at the end, but at the same time you feel that time is important because so many events are timed. It's probably not for everyone, and not for every game of course. It wouldn't have added anything meaningful to DA2, but DAI would've been a perfect it.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 1, 2019 12:11:57 GMT
That said, I made a mistake earlier and projected a bit too much while reading Ieldra's(no idea how to tag someone) original explanation. We don't seem to be on the exact same page on this issue, and I was the one who made assumptions. Maybe that clears it up a little. As for unringing the bell. At the risk of putting more words in her mouth, I imagine that she means that it would be a bad idea to 'ring the bell even harder', and make the issue even more contentious and impossible to consider and discuss civilly as an interesting fantasy hypothetical. Which makes sense. I shouldn't have gotten my hackles up. No excuses. Sorry, guys. That was a dumb way to try to join in. Nothing you wrote in reponse to me came across in a way that I'd expect an explanation (unless you edited it out before I could read it). Just to clear things up.
As for the issue we discussed, "ringing the bell harder" is a part of it, yes. The other is what you mentioned, that there might be a temptation, since the Qun is now tangled up with an emancipatory message related to a hot topic IRL, to whitewash the rest of it in order to get that message across better. Which is why I approve of that message but disapprove of its connection to the Qun. The mirror image is Tevinter, where I'm afraid it will be the Evil Empire in perpetuity, and those aspects of its culture I like will never get their due.
With regard to what we discussed earlier about breaking taboos in order to gain knowledge and the role of religion, well, there's where our RL ideologies differ I guess. As I see it, morality is a fundamental aspect of the human species, and religion makes use of it to justify itself, in order to fulfil its primary social role, which is to increase cohesion within a community. Religion fulfils this role, if necessary, by attempting to restrict people's thinking, and it is one of several possible carriers of deep social identities. So you can see where this leaves me, as a science-minded person and individualist anti-identitarian. Which is probably why I always come out as Solas in one of those DA-themed "personality tests". Even to the point where I wonder if I could really push the button for a plan as cataclysmic as his if I agreed with the projected future world-state, rather than "knowing" I couldn't like I suspect most people would say.
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Post by river82 on Apr 1, 2019 12:25:06 GMT
As I see it, morality is a fundamental aspect of the human species, and religion makes use of it to justify itself, in order to fulfil its primary social role, which is to increase cohesion within a community. Religion fulfils this role, if necessary, by attempting to restrict people's thinking, and it is one of several possible carriers of deep social identities. So you can see where this leaves me, as a science-minded person and individualist anti-identitarian. Which is probably why I always come out as Solas in one of those DA-themed "personality tests". Even to the point where I wonder if I could really push the button for a plan as cataclysmic as his if I agreed with the projected future world-state, rather than "knowing" I couldn't like I suspect most people would say. I see religion as a desperate attempt by humanity to try and take some control of their lives in the face of a hostile world. For example back in le'olden days crop failure 2 or 3 years in a row meant famine, and that's an extremely fine line to tread. Which meant famine (localised or more widespread) was pretty common (we'll ignore that wars also led to famine in this particular example). But it's pretty hard to control the weather to bring forth a bumper harvest. But "if you are a good boy and are an upstanding citizen, the God of Agriculture will look favourably upon you and will grant you much wheat, but if you are a wicked child then the God will curse you. And we can't have a cursed child in our village so you will be banished!" Now the people had a way of controlling their destiny, if they please the God of agriculture everyone will have things to eat. Of course that meant that people in charge of that religion could use it to control the people, but that kind of exploitation is just human nature. I believe half the reason we are able to be so disdainful toward religion these days is because we have so much security provided to us by the Government. If we had no control over our lives though, I think many would turn toward religion in desperation. But this is mostly guesswork on my part. I don't find religion interesting so I haven't read up on it
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 1, 2019 13:56:17 GMT
As I see it, morality is a fundamental aspect of the human species, and religion makes use of it to justify itself, in order to fulfil its primary social role, which is to increase cohesion within a community. Religion fulfils this role, if necessary, by attempting to restrict people's thinking, and it is one of several possible carriers of deep social identities. So you can see where this leaves me, as a science-minded person and individualist anti-identitarian. Which is probably why I always come out as Solas in one of those DA-themed "personality tests". Even to the point where I wonder if I could really push the button for a plan as cataclysmic as his if I agreed with the projected future world-state, rather than "knowing" I couldn't like I suspect most people would say. I see religion as a desperate attempt by humanity to try and take some control of their lives in the face of a hostile world. For example back in le'olden days crop failure 2 or 3 years in a row meant famine, and that's an extremely fine line to tread. Which meant famine (localised or more widespread) was pretty common (we'll ignore that wars also led to famine in this particular example). But it's pretty hard to control the weather to bring forth a bumper harvest. But "if you are a good boy and are an upstanding citizen, the God of Agriculture will look favourably upon you and will grant you much wheat, but if you are a wicked child then the God will curse you. And we can't have a cursed child in our village so you will be banished!" Now the people had a way of controlling their destiny, if they please the God of agriculture everyone will have things to eat. Of course that meant that people in charge of that religion could use it to control the people, but that kind of exploitation is just human nature. I believe half the reason we are able to be so disdainful toward religion these days is because we have so much security provided to us by the Government. If we had no control over our lives though, I think many would turn toward religion in desperation. But this is mostly guesswork on my part. I don't find religion interesting so I haven't read up on it That's more or less where I'm at too. Every conceivable source of wisdom tries to restrict your thinking on some level, by attempting to teach you better so you can live better, and any institution or school of thought becomes corrupt and tries to exploit us if it gets big and bloated and complacent enough. The scientific community is certainly no exception there. I wouldn't say that morality is fundamental to our species. We suck at it a bit too much for that to sound true. I'd rather say that it's just fundamentally necessary to live healthy and content lives, and that religion is, or used to be, our way of codifying, encouraging and in some cases enforcing those processes on a large scale as best we figured out how. The above example of pleasing the "God of Agriculture" is an ancient fundamental lesson in delayed gratification, for example. Be a sensible and responsible worker and citizen instead of just wishing for things to be easy, and the enormously complex circumstances of the world(God) will most likely reward your diligence eventually. Give something away today so you may get even more back in a week. Sacrifice, in a nutshell. A really complex and counter-intuitive idea when you think about it, not a mindset or impulse anyone comes to on their own because we pathologically dislike the idea of losing what we already have, but one which is the basis for everything worthwhile we've accomplished as a species because nothing lasting could be made without it. And while scientific literature can be taught and reproduced it takes an immense amount of time and surplus energy and resources to do so, while mythological stories can and could be repeated fairly effortlessly to keep imparting vital moral and practical lessons even through global catastrophe and civilization falling down around our ears, at the cost of those lessons being somewhat open to interpretation. I'm hugely appreciative, and professionally reliant, on science, and it's allowing us an unprecedented boom of wealth and stability worldwide. That's the furthest thing from something to sneeze at. But I also do fervently believe that discounting what religion and mythology have brought to the table throughout our species' existence is a big mistake with big consequences that we've been experiencing for the last century in particular, and still are. So I'm entirely for well-done religion and religious themes in RPGs, especially ones that have complex roots in deep history and the evolution of society.
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Post by wright1978 on Apr 1, 2019 16:59:54 GMT
(3) With regard to what Thedas' gods really are, it actually does not matter. They're all absent, otherwise it wouldn't be religion but rule. The Evanuris were god-kings, but Elvhenan's dominant ideology was government propaganda presenting itself as religion, which is readily apparent by Fen'Harel's rebellion. Not that there isn't significant overlap between those aspects, but I contend that a religion's longevity depends on its gods being absent, or at least non-communicative. Any real and active god would come to be regarded, in time, as nothing more than a superpowered extradimensional wizard, or - if you take Clarke's law into account - a being with access to sufficiently advanced technology (that is, btw., what my forum titel is all about).
I suspect in the case of the Evanuris their rule was a bit more than simply being regarded as gods. They employed vallaslin to mark their devotees. Given that vallaslin translated to "blood writing", I strongly suspect that blood magic was used to keep their underlings in line. If the vassalin act exactly as you suggest how were some underlings able to defect to solas in the first place.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 1, 2019 17:42:07 GMT
I suspect in the case of the Evanuris their rule was a bit more than simply being regarded as gods. They employed vallaslin to mark their devotees. Given that vallaslin translated to "blood writing", I strongly suspect that blood magic was used to keep their underlings in line. If the vassalin act exactly as you suggest how were some underlings able to defect to solas in the first place. :shrug: Nothing is perfect. Mind magic may be tricky even for beings as powerful as the Evanuris. Vassalin may only have been used to make them suggestible, rather than outright control? Like only mildly indoctrinating someone could kep people useful to the Reapers rather than turning them into drooling wrecks.
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Post by biggydx on Apr 1, 2019 18:30:58 GMT
Man, I really need to go back to reading/watching more Dragon Age lore videos . I've only got a grasp of each of the terms used here (like the Evanuris being the old elven gods)
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 1, 2019 19:05:13 GMT
If the vassalin act exactly as you suggest how were some underlings able to defect to solas in the first place. :shrug: Nothing is perfect. Mind magic may be tricky even for beings as powerful as the Evanuris. Vassalin may only have been used to make them suggestible, rather than outright control? Like only mildly indoctrinating someone could kep people useful to the Reapers rather than turning them into drooling wrecks. Alternatively, Solas and Mythal could have found some way to sabotage such control. OTOH, I'm not clear why Solas wouldn't have flatly stated that this was the real function of vallaslin.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 1, 2019 19:50:59 GMT
:shrug: Nothing is perfect. Mind magic may be tricky even for beings as powerful as the Evanuris. Vassalin may only have been used to make them suggestible, rather than outright control? Like only mildly indoctrinating someone could kep people useful to the Reapers rather than turning them into drooling wrecks. Alternatively, Solas and Mythal could have found some way to sabotage such control. OTOH, I'm not clear why Solas wouldn't have flatly stated that this was the real function of vallaslin. Because Solas always tells the whole truth?
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