Little Bengel
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Little Bengel
Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 25, 2019 22:53:41 GMT
It could certainly have more impact if we had more conversation options after the mission to show how the Inquisitor was affected. I don't feel like there were enough. That and cinematic conversations... as long as Bioware keeps with their zoom-in formula, I think a big part of the impact will keep being thrown out the window in favor of convenience. To be fair this does seem to be a problem of the genre. I mean really how many options did we get in Origins where we could discuss Hespith's fate? I don't really remember a one. I think that is the big reason why everyone thinks BioWare games aren't dark or lack impact anymore. And while the criticism is valid I would certainly prefer more cinematic conversations and it does help with the weight of moments...I also think that its improper to be confusing that with a *lack* of 'darkness'. I assure you I have not confused the two concepts. Just a slight digression. I just warmed up to the idea of having our character clearly manifest their opinions post-mission. Then again, I haven't played any of the games in a long time... I should really get around to that if I ever find the time.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 26, 2019 1:04:44 GMT
Can't confuse the concept of 'darkness' when it includes anything and everything you want it to.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 26, 2019 2:03:24 GMT
When I think of darkness I attribute it to mental and emotional conflicts rather than blood and gore.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 26, 2019 6:45:00 GMT
Back when they first introduced DAI back in 2013 and had a trial section for people to try out, there was the intent to make your actions more significant in the moment. Back then there was going to be the option to save Crestwood village or not; I believe if you opted to help the village then the Keep would have been lost. Basically your choices would have been meaningful and the "good" choice to help the villagers would have come at a cost, just as the "pragmatic" choice of choosing to save the Keep would have done (loss of reputation generally, loss of approval with certain followers and no village to trade with in the future). In the trailer we see Varric looking saddened at a load of dead bodies and apparently this was showing the outcome if you didn't save the village. It is a pity that this whole concept was dropped when the final version came out as this would seem to have had the emotional impact and genuine consequences to making certain choices that people seem to want. I believe they said it would have been possible to save both the Keep and the Village, but it'd be much harder to achieve. I believe they were also toying with the concept of the Venatori trying to take back the Keeps from you, forcing you to occasionally have to go defend them.
It's a shame that they didn't end up implementing these things into the final game, because having some hard choices to make and dealing with the consequences of them, would have resonated more with how the weight of the world is meant to be on the Inquisitor's shoulders and that people live and die by their actions.
I understand that these things were hard to implement and so were scrapped, but we did need more setbacks and pitfalls in DAI. Besides the attack on Haven, there was never really a moment where Corypheus seemed insurmountable as a threat, because our forces were easily taking his troops apart at every opportunity.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 26, 2019 14:58:09 GMT
When I think of darkness I attribute it to mental and emotional conflicts rather than blood and gore. Can't confuse the concept of 'darkness' when it includes anything and everything you want it to. A dark world is one generally unpleasant to live in. The reasons can vary. If your world is listed as a Crapsack World on TVTropes.org, it has a good chance of being regarded as dark. Thedas is so listed. I could make an argument about why their rationale is a little misleading, but for the sake of the argument I'll let it stand.
So, accepting that Thedas is generally regarded as a dark world - not as dark as some but definitely somewhat - and seeing that some still complain about the absence of meaningful darkness, I'd like to ask a different question: which kind of unpleasantnesss is absent, or not present enough, to make the world feel inauthentic?
I suspect people's answers vary significantly, but I think the poster who mentioned DAO's origins may have been spot on. What we do not see is the dark aspects of normal people's everyday life affecting the protagonist or those close to them. This was different in both DAO through the origins, and in DA2 through parts of the main plot. The Inquisitor and their companions live in a charmed bubble, only touched by the extraordinary darkness of the main plot. The legacy of the Blight is a constant presence in Thedas, and yet if we consider that decision the mayor of Crestwood had to make - we were never called to make a similar decision that would've affected anyone close to us. We didn't see one sibling die and the other leave to unpleasant places like Hawke, we didn't see our family killed and our house destroyed like Warden Cousland, not by something related to the extraordinary events of the main plot, but by things that are, by Thedosian standards, everyday evils.
In DAI the world's darkness was remote to us. The only time when we were made to feel it was...at the end of Trespasser. Perhaps that ending would not have felt so jarring had the story that came before not been an uninterrupted string of successes. Veni, vidi, vici. Certainly not something you'd say about the Warden, and not even remotely think about Hawke. But it seems appropriate for the Inquisitor. Until the end of Trespasser.
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Little Bengel
N3
Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Little Bengel
Partying like it's 1999
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geminifreak
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 26, 2019 15:06:16 GMT
I believe they said it would have been possible to save both the Keep and the Village, but it'd be much harder to achieve. I believe they were also toying with the concept of the Venatori trying to take back the Keeps from you, forcing you to occasionally have to go defend them.
That's true. I think you could choose the Keep first and then go for the village if you still had the time, although I dunno if it would have been possible the other way around. Among other reasons, this is why the decision to go last and current-gen simultaneously ended up hurting the game. They'll need to commit to just one. I'd like it if they went for next-gen only, considering all the rumours floating around. Yeah. Corypheus had a lot going for him, and all that potential got squandered. Whatever I may have said before about Weekes, I have some hope for Solas to be done more justice as an antagonist.
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Polka Dot
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 26, 2019 18:02:55 GMT
When I think of darkness I attribute it to mental and emotional conflicts rather than blood and gore. Can't confuse the concept of 'darkness' when it includes anything and everything you want it to. A dark world is one generally unpleasant to live in. The reasons can vary. If your world is listed as a Crapsack World on TVTropes.org, it has a good chance of being regarded as dark. Thedas is so listed. I could make an argument about why their rationale is a little misleading, but for the sake of the argument I'll let it stand. So, accepting that Thedas is generally regarded as a dark world - not as dark as some but definitely somewhat - and seeing that some still complain about the absence of meaningful darkness, I'd like to ask a different question: which kind of unpleasantnesss is absent, or not present enough, to make the world feel inauthentic?
I suspect people's answers vary significantly, but I think the poster who mentioned DAO's origins may have been spot on. What we do not see is the dark aspects of normal people's everyday life affecting the protagonist or those close to them. This was different in both DAO through the origins, and in DA2 through parts of the main plot. The Inquisitor and their companions live in a charmed bubble, only touched by the extraordinary darkness of the main plot. The legacy of the Blight is a constant presence in Thedas, and yet if we consider that decision the mayor of Crestwood had to make - we were never called to make a similar decision that would've affected anyone close to us. We didn't see one sibling die and the other leave to unpleasant places like Hawke, we didn't see our family killed and our house destroyed like Warden Cousland, not by something related to the extraordinary events of the main plot, but by things that are, by Thedosian standards, everyday evils.
In DAI the world's darkness was remote to us. The only time when we were made to feel it was...at the end of Trespasser. Perhaps that ending would not have felt so jarring had the story that came before not been an uninterrupted string of successes. Veni, vidi, vici. Certainly not something you'd say about the Warden, and not even remotely think about Hawke. But it seems appropriate for the Inquisitor. Until the end of Trespasser.
I think I mentioned this before, but the opening sequences of DAI weren't terribly effective. I don't remember feeling much connection to the character until about the point where we closed the first rift. I'd like to have spent some time at the Conclave with other characters in my party, maybe had (or witnessed) some confrontations with other characters/groups in attendance, and witnessed the actual destruction and loss of the other members of my party. Instead we get this weird, surreal opening scene where we're not even quite sure what we're being shown. Then we're in shackles being questioned by Cassandra - but it's over so quickly, it doesn't feel like much of an ordeal. I felt a lot more despondent seeing Leliana in the dungeon in Leliana's Song - maybe because of the betrayal and scene's composition, maybe partly because I was already familiar with the character. If Cassandra, Leliana, Mother Giselle, anyone - had expressed condolences for our losses or allowed our character to express their grief, it could have felt more impactful. Instead, you're elevated to a role that makes you the most powerful individual in Thedas, complete with a staff dedicated to working your will. Bottom line is that they could have - and probably should have - done a lot more to 1) Give us some time and interactions to get us connected with our character, and 2) Made those opening events a lot weightier than they felt. Even so, the Inquisitor does experience a huge loss and setback at Haven. That awful, lonely march through the snow to find the others is pretty disturbing. That mood, of course, is interrupted by a musical number and relocation to a fabulous stronghold. So it seems that any loss or setback is quickly undone and replaced by something better. It does raise a question though, in how much responsibility the devs have to drive home the feels and emotional impacts and how much we, as role-players are responsible for? I've always felt that role-playing is a thing that pretty much occurs in the player's head. There were a couple of places where the Cousland warden could mention the family slaughter, but the extent of his/her grieving was largely left up to the player. Alistair mourned Duncan for quite awhile - how much that impacted the warden was, again, up to the player to decide.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 26, 2019 18:29:00 GMT
A dark world is one generally unpleasant to live in. The reasons can vary. If your world is listed as a Crapsack World on TVTropes.org, it has a good chance of being regarded as dark. Thedas is so listed. I could make an argument about why their rationale is a little misleading, but for the sake of the argument I'll let it stand. So, accepting that Thedas is generally regarded as a dark world - not as dark as some but definitely somewhat - and seeing that some still complain about the absence of meaningful darkness, I'd like to ask a different question: which kind of unpleasantnesss is absent, or not present enough, to make the world feel inauthentic?
I suspect people's answers vary significantly, but I think the poster who mentioned DAO's origins may have been spot on. What we do not see is the dark aspects of normal people's everyday life affecting the protagonist or those close to them. This was different in both DAO through the origins, and in DA2 through parts of the main plot. The Inquisitor and their companions live in a charmed bubble, only touched by the extraordinary darkness of the main plot. The legacy of the Blight is a constant presence in Thedas, and yet if we consider that decision the mayor of Crestwood had to make - we were never called to make a similar decision that would've affected anyone close to us. We didn't see one sibling die and the other leave to unpleasant places like Hawke, we didn't see our family killed and our house destroyed like Warden Cousland, not by something related to the extraordinary events of the main plot, but by things that are, by Thedosian standards, everyday evils.
In DAI the world's darkness was remote to us. The only time when we were made to feel it was...at the end of Trespasser. Perhaps that ending would not have felt so jarring had the story that came before not been an uninterrupted string of successes. Veni, vidi, vici. Certainly not something you'd say about the Warden, and not even remotely think about Hawke. But it seems appropriate for the Inquisitor. Until the end of Trespasser.
I think I mentioned this before, but the opening sequences of DAI weren't terribly effective. I don't remember feeling much connection to the character until about the point where we closed the first rift. I'd like to have spent some time at the Conclave with other characters in my party, maybe had (or witnessed) some confrontations with other characters/groups in attendance, and witnessed the actual destruction and loss of the other members of my party. Instead we get this weird, surreal opening scene where we're not even quite sure what we're being shown. Then we're in shackles being questioned by Cassandra - but it's over so quickly, it doesn't feel like much of an ordeal. I felt a lot more despondent seeing Leliana in the dungeon in Leliana's Song - maybe because of the betrayal and scene's composition, maybe partly because I was already familiar with the character. If Cassandra, Leliana, Mother Giselle, anyone - had expressed condolences for our losses or allowed our character to express their grief, it could have felt more impactful. Instead, you're elevated to a role that makes you the most powerful individual in Thedas, complete with a staff dedicated to working your will. Bottom line is that they could have - and probably should have - done a lot more to 1) Give us some time and interactions to get us connected with our character, and 2) Made those opening events a lot weightier than they felt. Even so, the Inquisitor does experience a huge loss and setback at Haven. That awful, lonely march through the snow to find the others is pretty disturbing. That mood, of course, is interrupted by a musical number and relocation to a fabulous stronghold. So it seems that any loss or setback is quickly undone and replaced by something better. It does raise a question though, in how much responsibility the devs have to drive home the feels and emotional impacts and how much we, as role-players are responsible for? I've always felt that role-playing is a thing that pretty much occurs in the player's head. There were a couple of places where the Cousland warden could mention the family slaughter, but the extent of his/her grieving was largely left up to the player. Alistair mourned Duncan for quite awhile - how much that impacted the warden was, again, up to the player to decide. I’d much rather have it up to the player’s head rather than the devs force it into the character and player.
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Polka Dot
N3
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Feb 14, 2019 20:07:41 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 26, 2019 18:45:54 GMT
Back when they first introduced DAI back in 2013 and had a trial section for people to try out, there was the intent to make your actions more significant in the moment. Back then there was going to be the option to save Crestwood village or not; I believe if you opted to help the village then the Keep would have been lost. Basically your choices would have been meaningful and the "good" choice to help the villagers would have come at a cost, just as the "pragmatic" choice of choosing to save the Keep would have done (loss of reputation generally, loss of approval with certain followers and no village to trade with in the future). In the trailer we see Varric looking saddened at a load of dead bodies and apparently this was showing the outcome if you didn't save the village. It is a pity that this whole concept was dropped when the final version came out as this would seem to have had the emotional impact and genuine consequences to making certain choices that people seem to want. I believe they said it would have been possible to save both the Keep and the Village, but it'd be much harder to achieve. I believe they were also toying with the concept of the Venatori trying to take back the Keeps from you, forcing you to occasionally have to go defend them.
It's a shame that they didn't end up implementing these things into the final game, because having some hard choices to make and dealing with the consequences of them, would have resonated more with how the weight of the world is meant to be on the Inquisitor's shoulders and that people live and die by their actions. I understand that these things were hard to implement and so were scrapped, but we did need more setbacks and pitfalls in DAI. Besides the attack on Haven, there was never really a moment where Corypheus seemed insurmountable as a threat, because our forces were easily taking his troops apart at every opportunity.
Honestly, I really wonder just how much their commitment to supporting PS3 and Xbox360 ended up costing - not only in terms of more platforms to support, but things they weren't able to do because those platforms just weren't up to it. I mean, I get that they wanted people with last gen hardware to be able to play the game, but even so they ended up disappointed in some ways. Especially when BioWare finally made the decision not to release some DLC for them. From a PR standpoint, they get points from people who might not have been able to play the game if it had higher hardware requirements, but then lose points for ending support when they did.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 26, 2019 18:48:03 GMT
I suspect people's answers vary significantly, but I think the poster who mentioned DAO's origins may have been spot on. What we do not see is the dark aspects of normal people's everyday life affecting the protagonist or those close to them. This was different in both DAO through the origins, and in DA2 through parts of the main plot. The Inquisitor and their companions live in a charmed bubble, only touched by the extraordinary darkness of the main plot. The legacy of the Blight is a constant presence in Thedas, and yet if we consider that decision the mayor of Crestwood had to make - we were never called to make a similar decision that would've affected anyone close to us. We didn't see one sibling die and the other leave to unpleasant places like Hawke, we didn't see our family killed and our house destroyed like Warden Cousland, not by something related to the extraordinary events of the main plot, but by things that are, by Thedosian standards, everyday evils. In DAI the world's darkness was remote to us. The only time when we were made to feel it was...at the end of Trespasser. Perhaps that ending would not have felt so jarring had the story that came before not been an uninterrupted string of successes. Veni, vidi, vici. Certainly not something you'd say about the Warden, and not even remotely think about Hawke. But it seems appropriate for the Inquisitor. Until the end of Trespasser.
Wait a second. Why wouldn't you say that about the Warden? Sure, Wardens have an unpleasant background, but that's mostly in the past. It's all veni, vidi, vici after the first couple of hours. As for the general point, one implementation problem is that the entire plot of DAI is about a protagonist who is going to be insulated from the dark aspects of ordinary life over the course of the game. I suppose DA:O style origins could have been bolted onto the DAI outline, though. I don't know if Bio considered DA:O's origins to be effective. It's certainly something they've never tried again. Anyone know of any dev comments about the approach?
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anarchy65
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 891 Likes: 1,080
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Post by anarchy65 on Feb 26, 2019 19:16:21 GMT
I think DA:I was too afraid of touching politics and moral quarrels.
In DA:O there was the cliché story of "saving the world from evil", but you had Loghain and his twisted patriotism and power-hunger, mages x templars, dwarves and the casteless, city elves, dalish outcasts, it was all very cool.
In DA:2 the focus was more on mages x templars (and not that well developed, but fun enough) and qunari x the rest (which was much better IMO, the Arishok was awesome)
But in DA:I... it's really just a generic story of cleansing the world from an evil guy. Sure, there is a bit of politics with the church stuff and what to do with Orlais, but they are not only very secondary, they also don't matter much, unfortunately. Most of the decisions were very straight-forward. I don't remember struggling with one single decision in DA:I.
Solas provided, through DLC, a much better villain than Corypheus could have ever been. So the big hope for DA4 is that Solas will be the villain, and he is not a generic bad guy. But let's hope the game will also have other plots to bring back the tone of gray and difficult decisions.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 26, 2019 19:40:07 GMT
It does raise a question though, in how much responsibility the devs have to drive home the feels and emotional impacts and how much we, as role-players are responsible for? I've always felt that role-playing is a thing that pretty much occurs in the player's head. There were a couple of places where the Cousland warden could mention the family slaughter, but the extent of his/her grieving was largely left up to the player. Alistair mourned Duncan for quite awhile - how much that impacted the warden was, again, up to the player to decide. I have recently acquired a strong opinion on that. The more control the developers maintain over the tone of the story, the more it is *their* responsibility to drive home the impact. This is why I'm finding, at the moment, the old-school rpgs with unvoiced characters and no cinematic scenes much to my liking. Since the story scenes themselves do not present a strong tone, I will automatically add it from my imagination, and quite often, end up more satisfied than with a cinematic scene into the tone of which I can't get.
As I mentioned before, I am playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker, and I am finding myself much more in tune with my character than in any Bioware game since DAO - which, as I suspect not incidentally, was the last of their games without a voiced protagonist and cinematic scenes. The same was true last year with Pillars of Eternity and Deadfire. It doesn't help that the resources that go into the cinematic scenes in your typical Bioware game go into more dialogue options, more quests and more varied quest solutions, so both the story element and, most importantly for this aspect, my roleplaying options are also enhanced.
I suspect that where games with cinematic presentation present a tone and emotional impact with which I have an instant rapport, my sense of....belonging in the story would be heightened beyond anything a "dryer" game could create, but...no game (with a cinematic presentation) has ever managed to maintain this beyond a single scene or two.
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Little Bengel
N3
Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 954 Likes: 2,626
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Little Bengel
Partying like it's 1999
954
February 2017
geminifreak
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 26, 2019 20:24:41 GMT
I suspect people's answers vary significantly, but I think the poster who mentioned DAO's origins may have been spot on. What we do not see is the dark aspects of normal people's everyday life affecting the protagonist or those close to them. This was different in both DAO through the origins, and in DA2 through parts of the main plot. The Inquisitor and their companions live in a charmed bubble, only touched by the extraordinary darkness of the main plot. The legacy of the Blight is a constant presence in Thedas, and yet if we consider that decision the mayor of Crestwood had to make - we were never called to make a similar decision that would've affected anyone close to us. We didn't see one sibling die and the other leave to unpleasant places like Hawke, we didn't see our family killed and our house destroyed like Warden Cousland, not by something related to the extraordinary events of the main plot, but by things that are, by Thedosian standards, everyday evils. In DAI the world's darkness was remote to us. The only time when we were made to feel it was...at the end of Trespasser. Perhaps that ending would not have felt so jarring had the story that came before not been an uninterrupted string of successes. Veni, vidi, vici. Certainly not something you'd say about the Warden, and not even remotely think about Hawke. But it seems appropriate for the Inquisitor. Until the end of Trespasser.
Wait a second. Why wouldn't you say that about the Warden? Sure, Wardens have an unpleasant background, but that's mostly in the past. It's all veni, vidi, vici after the first couple of hours. As for the general point, one implementation problem is that the entire plot of DAI is about a protagonist who is going to be insulated from the dark aspects of ordinary life over the course of the game. I suppose DA:O style origins could have been bolted onto the DAI outline, though. I don't know if Bio considered DA:O's origins to be effective. It's certainly something they've never tried again. Anyone know of any dev comments about the approach? I think they said (dunno if it was Laidlaw, Darrah or someone else) that making multiple fully-playable origins consumed resources that could be used on other game content. I can't find the source right now, so I can't confirm exactly. But if they can't, then they should have our origins be more distinct in other aspects: more varied conversation options, or even a little cutscene or text blurb at the beginning telling our story and how our character ends up in the mess du jour. I think it's a reasonable compromise between their necessity to conserve resources and our desire to see our chosen origin distinguish itself from the others.
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Polka Dot
N3
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 26, 2019 20:46:35 GMT
It does raise a question though, in how much responsibility the devs have to drive home the feels and emotional impacts and how much we, as role-players are responsible for? I've always felt that role-playing is a thing that pretty much occurs in the player's head. There were a couple of places where the Cousland warden could mention the family slaughter, but the extent of his/her grieving was largely left up to the player. Alistair mourned Duncan for quite awhile - how much that impacted the warden was, again, up to the player to decide. I have recently acquired a strong opinion on that. The more control the developers maintain over the tone of the story, the more it is *their* responsibility to drive home the impact. This is why I'm finding, at the moment, the old-school rpgs with unvoiced characters and no cinematic scenes much to my liking. Since the story scenes themselves do not present a strong tone, I will automatically add it from my imagination, and quite often, end up more satisfied than with a cinematic scene into the tone of which I can't get. As I mentioned before, I am playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker, and I am finding myself much more in tune with my character than in any Bioware game since DAO - which, as I suspect not incidentally, was the last of their games without a voiced protagonist and cinematic scenes. The same was true last year with Pillars of Eternity and Deadfire. I'm kind of one of those old grognards who fell in love with DAO and am still much more connected to the warden than any other character I've played. Possible exception: Shepard, but that connection was formed over the course of 3 games and a lot of relationships built. One small correction, though - DAO did have a lot of cinematics. I've seen various complaints about the static, expressionless warden in various conversations, but that never bothered me. I'm not looking at the warden in those scenes, but the character with whom s/he is speaking. And of course, I always got to decide exactly how those lines were delivered instead of having the VA and director decide for me. The other advantage of pure text dialogue is that you get to choose the exact words your character says, instead of selecting a paraphrase and being surprised by what comes out of their mouth. Plus, no auto-dialogue. Eh? I would expect the costs of recording and animating all of those lines would actually reduce the number of options they can provide. Well - Hawke was very personable, very distinctive, very much cinematic and animated. A character built for entertainment, to be sure, but Hawke has never felt like my character. From my point of view, DA2 is this... sort of choose your own adventure branching narrative entertainment media, but it's never felt like any sort of role-playing opportunity for me. Hawke is far too defined for that. That's not to say I didn't get invested in Hawke's story, because it does have some entertainment value - but Hawke has always felt like an NPC to me. I can be interested in their stories, but I just don't have the same sort of investment that I have in a character that feels like mine to shape. I don't bother to customize Hawke in DAI, and don't feel any more or less connected to the character than when I'm playing DA2. Inky works a little better for me in that respect - but still not as well as the warden. In closing here, I'd like to say that your position: "The more control the developers maintain over the tone of the story, the more it is *their* responsibility to drive home the impact" is completely fair.
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 26, 2019 20:51:39 GMT
I felt hawke was my character for large spells. Dominant tone was occasionally screwy. Equally I liked me1/2 brick shep. Being part of conversation and being able to overlay. Once they decided they wanted shep to emote, that noose killed much of my sense of my character and enjoyment.
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 26, 2019 20:54:37 GMT
Wait a second. Why wouldn't you say that about the Warden? Sure, Wardens have an unpleasant background, but that's mostly in the past. It's all veni, vidi, vici after the first couple of hours. As for the general point, one implementation problem is that the entire plot of DAI is about a protagonist who is going to be insulated from the dark aspects of ordinary life over the course of the game. I suppose DA:O style origins could have been bolted onto the DAI outline, though. I don't know if Bio considered DA:O's origins to be effective. It's certainly something they've never tried again. Anyone know of any dev comments about the approach? I think they said (dunno if it was Laidlaw, Darrah or someone else) that making multiple fully-playable origins consumed resources that could be used on other game content. I can't find the source right now, so I can't confirm exactly. But if they can't, then they should have our origins be more distinct in other aspects: more varied conversation options, or even a little cutscene or text blurb at the beginning telling our story and how our character ends up in the mess du jour. I think it's a reasonable compromise between their necessity to conserve resources and our desire to see our chosen origin distinguish itself from the others. Yeah, that sounds familiar to me. And let's face it: origin stories are exclusive content. Most people play a game only once, so you end up building all of this content the vast majority of players will never see. There is always some of that (alternate content) - the romances, consequences for different choices, etc. I was fairly surprised that DAI had two different major questline setpieces (In Hushed Whispers or Champions of the Just) that were exclusive.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 26, 2019 21:07:40 GMT
Wait a second. Why wouldn't you say that about the Warden? Sure, Wardens have an unpleasant background, but that's mostly in the past. It's all veni, vidi, vici after the first couple of hours. As for the general point, one implementation problem is that the entire plot of DAI is about a protagonist who is going to be insulated from the dark aspects of ordinary life over the course of the game. I suppose DA:O style origins could have been bolted onto the DAI outline, though. I don't know if Bio considered DA:O's origins to be effective. It's certainly something they've never tried again. Anyone know of any dev comments about the approach? I think they said (dunno if it was Laidlaw, Darrah or someone else) that making multiple fully-playable origins consumed resources that could be used on other game content. I can't find the source right now, so I can't confirm exactly. But if they can't, then they should have our origins be more distinct in other aspects: more varied conversation options, or even a little cutscene or text blurb at the beginning telling our story and how our character ends up in the mess du jour. I think it's a reasonable compromise between their necessity to conserve resources and our desire to see our chosen origin distinguish itself from the others. They did all of this in DAI.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 26, 2019 21:12:12 GMT
I'm kind of one of those old grognards who fell in love with DAO and am still much more connected to the warden than any other character I've played. Possible exception: Shepard, but that connection was formed over the course of 3 games and a lot of relationships built. One small correction, though - DAO did have a lot of cinematics. I've seen various complaints about the static, expressionless warden in various conversations, but that never bothered me. I'm not looking at the warden in those scenes, but the character with whom s/he is speaking. And of course, I always got to decide exactly how those lines were delivered instead of having the VA and director decide for me. The other advantage of pure text dialogue is that you get to choose the exact words your character says, instead of selecting a paraphrase and being surprised by what comes out of their mouth. Plus, no auto-dialogue. I've long maintained that paraphrasing destroys roleplaying, and I have seen nothing since I first said that about ME1 to make me retract that position. As for DAO, yes, the other characters had a voice and some animations, but the Warden hadn't, and so you could maintain your mental hold on them rather than having to give in to Bioware's image. As for characters with whom I might've connected in spite of the developers setting a strong tone (and even identity in this case), Hawke might've been that if not for the over-the-top personality traits. The Inquisitor actually worked better for me because they were more neutral, at the price, of course, of conveying not much at all, which was nonetheless not as neutral as in non-cinematic games ("nothing" instead of nothing) and so left me with little freedom *and* nothing much of anything specific. Nonetheless, this was still the best-working post-DAO character so far. Shepard...oh....I don't have words to express the many ways in which they went against the grain for me. Gods, the stupidity, the complete lack of subtlety, the groan-worthy autodialogue. In hindsight, it's a miracle I managed to get through the trilogy. I got hooked on the story and the universe in ME1 and then on Miranda in ME2 and that managed to push me through the rest, even as ME3 destroyed the rest of "my" character's integrity and that of his love interest on top of it. Possibly one of the saddest stories of my gamer life - and that even without considering the ending. Eh? I would expect the costs of recording and animating all of those lines would actually reduce the number of options they can provide. Hmm...I might've said that wrongly. I meant that the resources that go into cinematics in your typical Bioware game go into more options and quests in non-cinematic games. Yes, same here.
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Little Bengel
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 26, 2019 21:39:33 GMT
I think they said (dunno if it was Laidlaw, Darrah or someone else) that making multiple fully-playable origins consumed resources that could be used on other game content. I can't find the source right now, so I can't confirm exactly. But if they can't, then they should have our origins be more distinct in other aspects: more varied conversation options, or even a little cutscene or text blurb at the beginning telling our story and how our character ends up in the mess du jour. I think it's a reasonable compromise between their necessity to conserve resources and our desire to see our chosen origin distinguish itself from the others. They did all of this in DAI. I can concede on the dialogue. Regarding the cutscene/text: you reminded me that the CC did have a paragraph with a little bit of information. The fact that I had to be reminded, however, tells me that it didn't leave much of an impact. Which makes me think that a cutscene a la Varric storytelling in DA2 may, in fact, be the better option.
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Polka Dot
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 26, 2019 21:40:32 GMT
I felt hawke was my character for large spells. Dominant tone was occasionally screwy. Equally I liked me1/2 brick shep. Being part of conversation and being able to overlay. Once they decided they wanted shep to emote, that noose killed much of my sense of my character and enjoyment. Shepard...oh....I don't have words to express the many ways in which they went against the grain for me. Gods, the stupidity, the complete lack of subtlety, the groan-worthy autodialogue. In hindsight, it's a miracle I managed to get through the trilogy. I got hooked on the story and the universe in ME1 and then on Miranda in ME2 and that managed to push me through the rest, even as ME3 destroyed the rest of "my" character's integrity and that of his love interest on top of it. Possibly one of the saddest stories of my gamer life - and that even without considering the ending. I expect you probably could find those words to express your feelings about Shepard's (ahem) "evolution", but don't want to set the forum ablaze. Clearly, that was a problem for a lot of people, and I get it. Despite being voiced, ME1 Shepard was a lot more reserved than the later versions. I was so enamored of the character and world, I played through ME1 several times before I moved on to ME2 (I bought the entire trilogy in a package, after I'd played DAO & DA2 and spent some time on the old BSN). I think ME3 is where it all went sideways for a lot of people. Starting with the kid in the opening scenes and the annoying nightmares about him. One of the biggest issues for a lot of people was Shepard's reaction to Thessia - but there were actually quite a few places throughout ME3 where Shepard did a lot of extracurricular emoting. And that, folks, is the downside of voiced, cinematic protags - and why I often enjoy unvoiced, less cinematic MC's more.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 26, 2019 21:50:40 GMT
*me sitting in a corner not giving a damn about moral choices, just want my glorified dating sim that pretends to be an action RPG* I have no standards, but sometimes it's not THAT bad to have pretty low standards as opposed to really huge standards and then be disappointed. Though sometimes Bioware is good at not even exceeding my incredibly low standards, a la MEA and Anthem.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 26, 2019 22:17:35 GMT
*me sitting in a corner not giving a damn about moral choices, just want my glorified dating sim that pretends to be an action RPG* "It's a dating sim with a 'Save the World' mini-game." - Patrick Weekes.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 26, 2019 22:20:43 GMT
*me sitting in a corner not giving a damn about moral choices, just want my glorified dating sim that pretends to be an action RPG* "It's a dating sim with a 'Save the World' mini-game." - Patrick Weekes. I mean it's true, so..
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boxofscreaming
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Post by boxofscreaming on Feb 26, 2019 22:42:02 GMT
Tone isn't really something you can just put on a wishlist or decide by popular vote, I feel. Who, after Origins, would have said "Well, the next game should be presented as a story told by a possibly untrustworthy dwarf where we'll never know for sure how close to 'reality' the events we're seeing actually are"?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 26, 2019 23:03:30 GMT
They did all of this in DAI. I can concede on the dialogue. Regarding the cutscene/text: you reminded me that the CC did have a paragraph with a little bit of information. The fact that I had to be reminded, however, tells me that it didn't leave much of an impact. Which makes me think that a cutscene a la Varric storytelling in DA2 may, in fact, be the better option. impact is a personally subjective experience though. Anyways for me the most obvious place to add such a scene, aside from the beginning would've been during champions. Afterall Envy was trying to learn about the Inquisitor and how to become them. Imagine if we got a scene from the Inquisitor's childhood, based on your dialogue with Josie earlier in the game which the Inquisitor could then react to which could flesh out the character. The big problem with Inquisition is its beginning also doubled as the Inciting Incident which launched the Inquisitor off on their story. Usually an inciting incident happens after the protagonist and the world has to marinate, at least a little bit. In Origins the inciting incident happens at the very end of the various Origins (Ie during the human noble the death of their father and them fleeing with Duncan) or during DA 2 when Hawke finds out about the Deep Roads expedition which gives her a chance to get out of the slums she has been living in.
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