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Post by Iddy on Feb 18, 2019 23:34:48 GMT
She considered sending an Exalted March to stop... the mages. Not the templars who were far outstepping their boundaries.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 18, 2019 23:56:48 GMT
It's right. Just like she knew about Alrik's "tranquil solution", and yes, she rejected that – but was not suspicious what happened there? Doesn't send away that obviously mad man from the Order? She watched Kirkwall – but just because of the blood mage and the Resolutionst's activity, and because of a possible mage rebellion. Not because of among her Templars there are madmen. Even Cassandra said, they made the mistake, they did not pay attention to Meredith.
And ... Leliana in the Masqued Empire: “I have… been comrade-in-arms with elves. I would not see them harmed. But you did not ask for her support in that matter.” She looked back at Celene. “You asked for her support calming the Templars and the mages.” “Indeed.” Celene nodded. “And will she give that support?” Leliana let out a breath. “She will,” she said, nodding slowly, “but in return, she needs to know that this matter with the elves is under control.”
Divine Justinia seems even didn't care about the elves – she just wanted under control them, don't care about the method... She just was a politician. Probably not the worst, but not even the best one. Not a big loss.
And in Asunder, she agreed with Lord Seeker Lucius to Tranquilizing Pharamond again.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 19, 2019 0:03:27 GMT
She considered sending an Exalted March to stop... the mages. Not the templars who were far outstepping their boundaries. That line was pretty much retconned in future material. If anything, she was biased in favor of the mages considering her support of them over the Templars in the books, leading to many Templars leaving the Chantry to fight the mages.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 19, 2019 10:02:35 GMT
She considered sending an Exalted March to stop... the mages. Not the templars who were far outstepping their boundaries. That line was pretty much retconned in future material. If anything, she was biased in favor of the mages considering her support of them over the Templars in the books, leading to many Templars leaving the Chantry to fight the mages. I'm not sure it was a retcon. They might have been planning to write her as somewhat biased toward mages the whole time, but have already decided that the problem-templars would have been able to keep things hidden from her. (Which is how they explain the discrepancy in later media.) She does send her Left Hand on a factfinding mission, right? As though she doesn't really trust the official word on things. And then that Left Hand discovers that the mages in Kirkwall really are running amok, and leaves quickly since they find her and attack her. And then theDivine sends her Right and Left Hands on another factfinding mission after the powder keg bursts, just to be sure she has the whole story.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 20, 2019 5:47:38 GMT
I'm not sure it was a retcon. They might have been planning to write her as somewhat biased toward mages the whole time, but have already decided that the problem-templars would have been able to keep things hidden from her. (Which is how they explain the discrepancy in later media.) She does send her Left Hand on a factfinding mission, right? As though she doesn't really trust the official word on things. And then that Left Hand discovers that the mages in Kirkwall really are running amok, and leaves quickly since they find her and attack her. And then theDivine sends her Right and Left Hands on another factfinding mission after the powder keg bursts, just to be sure she has the whole story. I agree, Justinia seems like she wanted all the facts before she decided on a course of action. Even if all the rumours of an "Exalted March" were completely overblown as DAI claims they were, she wouldn't have sent her top agents there on two separate occasions if she wasn't trying to get to the bottom of what was going on.
I have a sneaking feeling that Leliana intentionally leaked her presence in Kirkwall, hoping to draw out the Chantry's enemies. When she found a bunch of Resolutionists waiting to assassinate her, not only did she learn that they were active in the city, but that the situation appeared as dire as many feared. At this point, Justinia may have considered taking action against the mages.
But in the aftermath of the Kirkwall Uprising and amid rumours about Meredith's harsh methods and Templar mistreatment of mages, she may have wondered whether some of the rebelling mages may have had legitimate grievances and the Chantry had failed in it's duty to oversee them. Lambert's actions at the Spire may further have lead her to wonder whether it was a problem with the Templars, not the mages, that needed to addressed? That the Templars defected en-masse shortly afterwards, may have swayed her position from their side even more.
This might be why she ultimately decided to hold the Conclave, in the hopes that all sides could find a compromise that would restore the peace. I think Justinia recognised that the Mages, Templars and Chantry needed to change if they hoped to accomplish that, but first, they needed to stop fighting and start talking. That said, I do wonder what her plans were if the Conclave failed and what exactly she intended for the Inquisition to do?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 20, 2019 14:33:35 GMT
That said, I do wonder what her plans were if the Conclave failed and what exactly she intended for the Inquisition to do? I remember reading something on TV Tropes that said the Warden was Divine Justinia's first choice to lead it, and that reminds us of all the violence and hardball politics the Warden had employ even if you're playing as the most gentle Warden the game allows. I can't find that original post anymore, so maybe it's gotten taken down, but if the Divine really did plan to put the Warden in charge of restoring order, that does give us some hint as to how she thought it would have to happen. We'll ignore all the darkspawn you have to kill, since they're narratively crafted in such a way as to not count, but have you ever managed to roll a Warden who killed more darkspawn than people? Have you ever rolled a Warden who got through A Paragon of Her Kind without either Bhelen or Harrowmont dying? Who got through the Landsmeet without having to kill at least one important nobleman? Have you ever managed to roll a Warden-Commander who shut down Bann Esmerelle without resorting to either violence or the threat of violence? I'd say that if Divine Justinia really wanted the Warden to run the Inquisition, she figured she'd need some eggs broken if she wanted to make an omelette.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by boxofscreaming on Feb 20, 2019 19:24:02 GMT
Sure. The vibe I got was that she was going to send Templars to kill everyone in Kirkwall at any moment. I certainly got that impression from Leliana in Sebastian's quest (and Leliana too seemed pretty hostile to the mages then).
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Post by Iddy on Feb 20, 2019 19:24:41 GMT
That said, I do wonder what her plans were if the Conclave failed and what exactly she intended for the Inquisition to do? I remember reading something on TV Tropes that said the Warden was Divine Justinia's first choice to lead it, and that reminds us of all the violence and hardball politics the Warden had employ even if you're playing as the most gentle Warden the game allows. I can't find that original post anymore, so maybe it's gotten taken down, but if the Divine really did plan to put the Warden in charge of restoring order, that does give us some hint as to how she thought it would have to happen. We'll ignore all the darkspawn you have to kill, since they're narratively crafted in such a way as to not count, but have you ever managed to roll a Warden who killed more darkspawn than people? Have you ever rolled a Warden who got through A Paragon of Her Kind without either Bhelen or Harrowmont dying? Who got through the Landsmeet without having to kill at least one important nobleman? Have you ever managed to roll a Warden-Commander who shut down Bann Esmerelle without resorting to either violence or the threat of violence? I'd say that if Divine Justinia really wanted the Warden to run the Inquisition, she figured she'd need some eggs broken if she wanted to make an omelette. Not just TV Tropes. Cassandra says it herself. First in DA 2's ending, when Leliana asks where is the Champion and she answers "Gone, just like the Warden (meaning they looked for him/her first). And again, in a conversation with Cassandra in Inquisition.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 20, 2019 23:24:19 GMT
I remember reading something on TV Tropes that said the Warden was Divine Justinia's first choice to lead it, and that reminds us of all the violence and hardball politics the Warden had employ even if you're playing as the most gentle Warden the game allows. I can't find that original post anymore, so maybe it's gotten taken down, but if the Divine really did plan to put the Warden in charge of restoring order, that does give us some hint as to how she thought it would have to happen. We'll ignore all the darkspawn you have to kill, since they're narratively crafted in such a way as to not count, but have you ever managed to roll a Warden who killed more darkspawn than people? Have you ever rolled a Warden who got through A Paragon of Her Kind without either Bhelen or Harrowmont dying? Who got through the Landsmeet without having to kill at least one important nobleman? Have you ever managed to roll a Warden-Commander who shut down Bann Esmerelle without resorting to either violence or the threat of violence? I'd say that if Divine Justinia really wanted the Warden to run the Inquisition, she figured she'd need some eggs broken if she wanted to make an omelette. Not just TV Tropes. Cassandra says it herself. First in DA 2's ending, when Leliana asks where is the Champion and she answers "Gone, just like the Warden (meaning they looked for him/her first). And again, in a conversation with Cassandra in Inquisition. So there is in-game evidence? Sounds like Divine Justinia has a taste for omelette.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 21, 2019 19:04:58 GMT
Not just TV Tropes. Cassandra says it herself. First in DA 2's ending, when Leliana asks where is the Champion and she answers "Gone, just like the Warden (meaning they looked for him/her first). And again, in a conversation with Cassandra in Inquisition. So there is in-game evidence? Sounds like Divine Justinia has a taste for omelette. In the conversation with Cassandra after she blows up at Varric for hiding Hawke from her, she confirms that the Warden was their first choice for the post of Inquisitor, with Hawke being considered as the second candidate. If the Warden is dead however, then she says that Hawke was their first choice to become the Inquisitor.
Considering some of our Wardens and Hawke being, well, Hawke... you gotta wonder what the hell was Justinia smoking thinking?
(Also Cass, why didn't you lead with that during your interrogation of Varric? Asking him, "Where is Hawke, I want to offer them a job?" would have saved her a ton of aggro in DA2!)
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 21, 2019 19:32:58 GMT
So there is in-game evidence? Sounds like Divine Justinia has a taste for omelette. In the conversation with Cassandra after she blows up at Varric for hiding Hawke from her, she confirms that the Warden was their first choice for the post of Inquisitor, with Hawke being considered as the second candidate. If the Warden is dead however, then she says that Hawke was their first choice to become the Inquisitor.
Considering some of our Wardens and Hawke being, well, Hawke... you gotta wonder what the hell was Justinia smoking thinking?
(Also Cass, why didn't you lead with that during your interrogation of Varric? Asking him, "Where is Hawke, I want to offer them a job?" would have saved her a ton of aggro in DA2!)
I guess she thought that handing over the reins to the Warden couldn't possibly make the situation worse. We see what the mages and the templars going for each others throats did to the Hinterlands, and if that's been going on for years, all across Thedas... Besides, while I stand by my assertion that going to the Warden means she's well aware she needs some eggs broken, they're not the worst choice. All of our Wardens got the job done. Even my Chaotic Evil blood-mage didn't actually manage to destroy Ferelden, even if he did break way more eggs than that omelette needed.
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Quickpaw
N3
 
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Tuldabar
XBL Gamertag: Shadow Quickpaw
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Post by Quickpaw on Aug 10, 2019 0:16:09 GMT
(Also Cass, why didn't you lead with that during your interrogation of Varric? Asking him, "Where is Hawke, I want to offer them a job?" would have saved her a ton of aggro in DA2!)
Probably because she had her favorite author (Squeeeee!) yet had to have some way to stay objective and not give her mushy side away to anyone (Ahem... I mean I WILL KILL YOU IF YOU DON'T COOPERATE but please sign my book?) "Varric... Does Hawke ever autograph books?" "...Why? Doesn't your copy of The Tale of the Champion have a big hole in it?" "Yes, but it could... also have Hawke's signature on it..."
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