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Post by anarchy65 on Mar 13, 2019 22:15:47 GMT
Although 600 years, in cosmic time, is an eyeblink. There's a nonzero chance of a local race suddenly developing starflight or an outside race/coalition expanding into the target zone from elsewhere, sure, but having it happen in that 600-year window is not very likely. But yeah, the AI is a bet that either no such race will exist or that they'd be friendly. Thing is: they didn't know anything about the alien races in the galaxy when they "studied" it. Even in "galaxy time", 600 years is a lot of time and multiple things could go wrong, especially with the universe being such a mysterious place. You could at least expect some things wouldn't happen as planned (as they actually didn't). Look at humankind for example: In a little more than a 100 years we went from "starting to going to space" to "super advanced council race".
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 14, 2019 18:21:42 GMT
Look at humankind for example: In a little more than a 100 years we went from "starting to going to space" to "super advanced council race". Yea but contrast that to the asari, who basically sat on their asses for over 3000 years or so. Heck, even the allegedly super-fast living and thinking salarian race didn't really make much progress in the 2500 years since they found the Citadel. Sure, they all colonized a few worlds or whatnot but that was it.
The humans basically taking over half the milky way in 30 years seems to really be an outlier. And let's face it, ME timelines are wonky, whichever way you look at it.
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Post by anarchy65 on Mar 14, 2019 18:33:33 GMT
Look at humankind for example: In a little more than a 100 years we went from "starting to going to space" to "super advanced council race". The humans basically taking over half the milky way in 30 years seems to really be an outlier. And let's face it, ME timelines are wonky, whichever way you look at it.
But that's kinda the point. You really don't know what you will be facing. That's why they never anticipated the kett and the other races I can't even remember their name so worthless they are, as well as their actions. In 600 years, even being a little in cosmic time, a lot of shit can happen, especially if you don't know anything about the races that inhabit that galaxy, and at best you know planets' climates. It might not, but they shouldn't really be surprised that things didn't go as expected.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 14, 2019 19:06:39 GMT
The humans basically taking over half the milky way in 30 years seems to really be an outlier. And let's face it, ME timelines are wonky, whichever way you look at it.
But that's kinda the point. You really don't know what you will be facing. That's why they never anticipated the kett and the other races I can't even remember their name so worthless they are, as well as their actions. In 600 years, even being a little in cosmic time, a lot of shit can happen, especially if you don't know anything about the races that inhabit that galaxy, and at best you know planets' climates. It might not, but they shouldn't really be surprised that things didn't go as expected. Oh yea, that is absolutely true. But then, hte BS explanation how they got accurate current information in the Helios cluster in 2186 is the first place is so crazy, the fact they just went with it is a minor point to me. My advice, just do this for a while: and it'll be much easier to play this game.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 19:25:04 GMT
Oh I’m not arguing for empty planets. Just that neither team MW or any instant local ally race is there first. Have thriving planets, natives of various tech levels, heck don’t make the kett be a one dimensional bad guy race and have them on those planets. Everything we bumped into could have been there but insert native race here. It’s not like they were striving for unique looking aliens. They could have planted a dozen generic aliens there. Heck given the genetic engineering angle they could all be based on the angara but genetically engineered to the specific environments of the planets they were placed on. Have the aya group be your instant friend to act as the bridge for the player to understand the new galaxy. The rest who look just like modified angara you have to work with to gain enough loyalty to drop a colony. They then say fuck no to any colonies with krogans once they understand their birth rate. I really don't see how any of that would have offered any tangible improvement... beyond pacifying this notion that fans keep on insisting that "pathfinder" = "first-contact only type of exploration" or else it's not pathfinding. Bioware tells us what "defines" a pathfinder at the end of the game. It's defined by what Ryder did... finding a way for the Initiative to become accepted and settled in Andromeda. First contacts were only ever going to be a small part of the job. In addition, most of the recorded "first contacts" in human history are now believed to not have been first contacts at all. Loads of Europeans arrived in North America long before the Mayflower arrived... long before the French arrived with Cabot... long before the Portuguese began whaling off the coast of Newfoundland... etc. Having the Nexus arrive first and having other exiled Initiative members making a go of it on their own doesn't hurt the story at all, IMO. It shows that there is more than one way to skin a cat... more than one path to settlement and colonization... more than one way to "explore" something that's new to you.
I'm fine with the theme as Bioware envisioned it. The fans built up their own speculations... something they do all the time here; and when Bioware merely does something different than what fans here have wildly speculated out the fans get "disappointed" that they didn't guess correctly about what Bioware was doing. The same process has already started with speculation about the next ME game. Ultimately, it's the fans setting themselves up to be disappointed no matter what Bioware actually does.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 14, 2019 21:03:55 GMT
The humans basically taking over half the milky way in 30 years seems to really be an outlier. And let's face it, ME timelines are wonky, whichever way you look at it.
But that's kinda the point. You really don't know what you will be facing. That's why they never anticipated the kett and the other races I can't even remember their name so worthless they are, as well as their actions. In 600 years, even being a little in cosmic time, a lot of shit can happen, especially if you don't know anything about the races that inhabit that galaxy, and at best you know planets' climates. It might not, but they shouldn't really be surprised that things didn't go as expected. Sure. But having that even happen within the 600 years of travel time obviously has an extremely low probability. If there was a high probability of an intelligent race colonizing the cluster in any 600-year period, it likely would have already happened.
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Post by anarchy65 on Mar 14, 2019 21:29:30 GMT
But that's kinda the point. You really don't know what you will be facing. That's why they never anticipated the kett and the other races I can't even remember their name so worthless they are, as well as their actions. In 600 years, even being a little in cosmic time, a lot of shit can happen, especially if you don't know anything about the races that inhabit that galaxy, and at best you know planets' climates. It might not, but they shouldn't really be surprised that things didn't go as expected. Sure. But having that even happen within the 600 years of travel time obviously has an extremely low probability. If there was a high probability of an intelligent race colonizing the cluster in any 600-year period, it likely would have already happened. You really can't know if the probability is low or not if you don't know the variables. I mean, if you only know about the planets' climates and you don't know anything about the races that inhabit that galaxy there is absolutely no way to know what is going on there.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 14, 2019 21:45:04 GMT
That's just confused. We know that conditions which would have permitted the evolution of intelligent life have existed in Andromeda for billions of years; Andromeda is just like the MW in that regard. We know that the window in which intelligent life might reach or evolve in Heleus is 600 years. It's an eyeblink.
What are the chances that particular eyeblink will be the one in which intelligent Andromeda life really does reach Heleus? Do the math.
You can approach the problem from other angles -- what percentage of time is a MW garden world occupied by a technological race, for example. But you will always get the same result.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 14, 2019 21:51:14 GMT
I am with alanc9 in so far as one could probably calculate the chance that any unexplored cluster in the Milky Way would be colonized by any species within 600 years. Given that all races in the MW combined only explored (not even colonized) under 1% of the galaxy, that number would likely be extremely low. And that's with mass relays and a whole bunch of sophisticated paleotechnology already present.
So I can see how it can make sense to have a predictive model, that would estimate an extremely low chance for another species to migrate into Helios within 600 years. So far so good.
However, that would imply that np species is there already and that the MW species knew this from their scans. But in 2186, before the scourge and the kett, the angara were reportedly a thriving type II civilization, settling on about a dozen worlds or so. Hell, their home world Hawarl was even scanned and evaluated and apparently, no evidence of the angara being there was ever reported. So either their geth-relay-superscanner-thingy was complete shit and they just relied on it blind, which would be stupid or they were aware that their scanners couldn't resolve the question of whether or not any civilization was already present on any of these worlds (in which case they really shouldn't have already divided up worlds that might already be owned by someone). The third option is that the Benefactor didn't give a dam and fully expected the Initiative be an invasion force but there is no indication of that in the game.
In any case, the fact that the angara were already there and thriving by the time the AI started makes Helios a really bad choice for an initial landing zone in Andromeda, even if the Initiative didn't outright know about them when they left.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 22:27:51 GMT
I am with alanc9 in so far as one could probably calculate the chance that any unexplored cluster in the Milky Way would be colonized by any species within 600 years. Given that all races in the MW combined only explored (not even colonized) under 1% of the galaxy, that number would likely be extremely low. And that's with mass relays and a whole bunch of sophisticated paleotechnology already present. So I can see how it can make sense to have a predictive model, that would estimate an extremely low chance for another species to migrate into Helios within 600 years. So far so good. However, that would imply that np species is there already and that the MW species knew this from their scans. But in 2186, before the scourge and the kett, the angara were reportedly a thriving type II civilization, settling on about a dozen worlds or so. Hell, their home world Hawarl was even scanned and evaluated and apparently, no evidence of the angara being there was ever reported. So either their geth-relay-superscanner-thingy was complete shit and they just relied on it blind, which would be stupid or they were aware that their scanners couldn't resolve the question of whether or not any civilization was already present on any of these worlds (in which case they really shouldn't have already divided up worlds that might already be owned by someone). The third option is that the Benefactor didn't give a dam and fully expected the Initiative be an invasion force but there is no indication of that in the game. In any case, the fact that the angara were already there and thriving by the time the AI started makes Helios a really bad choice for an initial landing zone in Andromeda, even if the Initiative didn't outright know about them when they left. The Angara are a manufactured species and their actual remembered history is very short. The game strongly hints that their "before the scourge" history has been mostly manufactured and fed to them by their Jaardan creators. The remnant are synthetic so, again, the normal timespan for evolution of an advanced civilization doesn't apply. The structures on Habitat 7 are stated to be young enough that they would not have been there when the Initiative was doing their scans of the galaxy (600+ years earlier), so the game is strongly hinting that everything we see in Heleus is less than 600 years old (even the stuff the Angaran's believe to be ancient). The Jaardan were likely active in the area... causing the scans to show in extraordinarily high number of "golden worlds" in the zone (which is why Heleus was chosen by the Initiative). However, we don't yet know the nature of the Jaardan... perhaps a life form so alien the scans couldn't event recognize it as a life form.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 14, 2019 22:50:58 GMT
I am with alanc9 in so far as one could probably calculate the chance that any unexplored cluster in the Milky Way would be colonized by any species within 600 years. Given that all races in the MW combined only explored (not even colonized) under 1% of the galaxy, that number would likely be extremely low. And that's with mass relays and a whole bunch of sophisticated paleotechnology already present. So I can see how it can make sense to have a predictive model, that would estimate an extremely low chance for another species to migrate into Helios within 600 years. So far so good. However, that would imply that np species is there already and that the MW species knew this from their scans. But in 2186, before the scourge and the kett, the angara were reportedly a thriving type II civilization, settling on about a dozen worlds or so. Hell, their home world Hawarl was even scanned and evaluated and apparently, no evidence of the angara being there was ever reported. So either their geth-relay-superscanner-thingy was complete shit and they just relied on it blind, which would be stupid or they were aware that their scanners couldn't resolve the question of whether or not any civilization was already present on any of these worlds (in which case they really shouldn't have already divided up worlds that might already be owned by someone). The third option is that the Benefactor didn't give a dam and fully expected the Initiative be an invasion force but there is no indication of that in the game. In any case, the fact that the angara were already there and thriving by the time the AI started makes Helios a really bad choice for an initial landing zone in Andromeda, even if the Initiative didn't outright know about them when they left. The Angara are a manufactured species and their actual remembered history is very short. The game strongly hints that their "before the scourge" history has been mostly manufactured and fed to them by their Jaardan creators. The remnant are synthetic so, again, the normal timespan for evolution of an advanced civilization doesn't apply. The structures on Habitat 7 are stated to be young enough that they would not have been there when the Initiative was doing their scans of the galaxy (600+ years earlier), so the game is strongly hinting that everything we see in Heleus is less than 600 years old (even the stuff the Angaran's believe to be ancient). The Jaardan were likely active in the area... causing the scans to show in extraordinarily high number of "golden worlds" in the zone (which is why Heleus was chosen by the Initiative). However, we don't yet know the nature of the Jaardan... perhaps a life form so alien the scans couldn't event recognize it as a life form. Ok, I have to finish my current playthrough, to get to the point of the Jaardan again and refresh my memory on what exactly was going on in the texts and dialogue there. If that's the case than that would make more sense.
Would still be weird though. Because so far in my current playthrough, The angara talk quite often about their proud history (and I already helped the museum curator with her first artifacts as well) but no one from the initiative brings this discrepancy up.
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Post by Quickpaw on Mar 14, 2019 23:14:57 GMT
It is worth noting that according to the lore we have access to, the vast VAST majority of our own galaxy has already been wiped clean of whatever was there by the Reaper Cycle. So anywhere you could have access to with our current level of Reaper-based mass manipulation tech would be only places they had already harvested or places they thought were potential harvest points. In the end, the first Mass Effect's really baren colony worlds were pretty indicative of the state of the Milky Way. Very old, and very empty.
Aside from the fact that in order to do ANY story in the ME setting post ME3 pretty much requires being so far removed from the Crucible choice to barely even BE the same setting... Also only the Benefactor or Alec Ryder would know this about the MW galaxy, so it leaves the motivations for individuals in the same state of... whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?
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Post by anarchy65 on Mar 15, 2019 18:36:31 GMT
That's just confused. We know that conditions which would have permitted the evolution of intelligent life have existed in Andromeda for billions of years; Andromeda is just like the MW in that regard. We know that the window in which intelligent life might reach or evolve in Heleus is 600 years. It's an eyeblink. What are the chances that particular eyeblink will be the one in which intelligent Andromeda life really does reach Heleus? Do the math. You can approach the problem from other angles -- what percentage of time is a MW garden world occupied by a technological race, for example. But you will always get the same result. I'm not talking about migration, I'm talking about the races/machines that ALREADY lived there, like andromedary said. So, their technology didn't warn them about the angara? The kett? The remnant? Any kinds of synthetics? Either you're using a bad technology, or you're taking hell of a bet.
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Post by melbella on Mar 16, 2019 1:02:34 GMT
So, their technology didn't warn them about the angara? The kett? The remnant? Any kinds of synthetics?
As @upagain wrote, the angara weren't there. The kett weren't there (they aren't native to Heleus). The remnant (and by association, the Jaardan) were probably underground doing their terraforming thing (or inactive after having already done it) and therefore not visible to the scanners.
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Post by anarchy65 on Mar 16, 2019 1:06:17 GMT
So, their technology didn't warn them about the angara? The kett? The remnant? Any kinds of synthetics?
As @upagain wrote, the angara weren't there. The kett weren't there (they aren't native to Heleus). The remnant (and by association, the Jaardan) were probably underground doing their terraforming thing (or inactive after having already done it) and therefore not visible to the scanners.
Well, then the whole Andromeda plot is based on something that had a very low probability of happening, according to alanc9. And even more unlikely, since not only one, but two races appeared. It seems the probability isn't so low after all!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 1:38:30 GMT
As @upagain wrote, the angara weren't there. The kett weren't there (they aren't native to Heleus). The remnant (and by association, the Jaardan) were probably underground doing their terraforming thing (or inactive after having already done it) and therefore not visible to the scanners.
Well, then the whole Andromeda plot is based on something that had a very low probability of happening, according to alanc9. And even more unlikely, since not only one, but two races appeared. It seems the probability isn't so low after all! Probability had nothing to do with the Angara because they didn't "appear" - They were intentionally "genetically engineered" by the Jaardan. The Remnant are Jaardan technology, left behind by them when they escaped the galaxy by whatever species attacked them and caused them to divide Meridian... leaving Khi T'asira to fight off the attackers while Meridian fled with the genetic blueprints for the various species of life they had been creating. Also, keep in mind that Meridian's life is contained on the inside of the globe. To the Initiative's scanners, it would have appeared to be totally lifeless. Given it's shape, it may have even just appeared to be a black hole.
The kett were most likely drawn to Heleus for the same reasons the Initiative was. Somehow (probably through some form of scanning) they became aware of a preponderance of "golden worlds." They're a species looking to improve themselves by absorbing other species into their genes (Archon says literally "I am the inheritor of 1000 species."). Another possibility is that the kett have some sort of "history" with the Jaardan... and maybe a desire to destroy or disrupt the "good" work the Jaardan do to make worlds habitiable... but they don't know how to manipulate the Jaardanian tech (i.e. the remnant). It could be that they were targeting the Angara for assimilation specifically because the Angara can learn how to manipulate remnant tech given time and extreme effor t(we learn this from the sages on Havarl).
Mere odds (probability) has nothing to do with it.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 16, 2019 23:34:58 GMT
As @upagain wrote, the angara weren't there. The kett weren't there (they aren't native to Heleus). The remnant (and by association, the Jaardan) were probably underground doing their terraforming thing (or inactive after having already done it) and therefore not visible to the scanners.
Well, then the whole Andromeda plot is based on something that had a very low probability of happening, according to alanc9. And even more unlikely, since not only one, but two races appeared. It seems the probability isn't so low after all! RPG plots are often based on things with a very low probability, unless we're doing some sort of Chosen One thing, or there's something like the Force screwing with everybody's destinies. If Saren and Sovereign hadn't made such a botch of their attempt to activate the Citadel relay, Shepard never gets hit by the beacon and there's no stopping Saren. Actually, ME1 has a bunch of them -- what are the chances that an incriminating conversation of Saren's would somehow find it's way into Tali's hands? DAI is literally an accident which happens to the PC.
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Post by anarchy65 on Mar 16, 2019 23:47:03 GMT
Well, then the whole Andromeda plot is based on something that had a very low probability of happening, according to alanc9. And even more unlikely, since not only one, but two races appeared. It seems the probability isn't so low after all! RPG plots are often based on things with a very low probability, unless we're doing some sort of Chosen One thing, or there's something like the Force screwing with everybody's destinies. If Saren and Sovereign hadn't made such a botch of their attempt to activate the Citadel relay, Shepard never gets hit by the beacon and there's no stopping Saren. Actually, ME1 has a bunch of them -- what are the chances that an incriminating conversation of Saren's would somehow find it's way into Tali's hands? DAI is literally an accident which happens to the PC. We can consider those to be "low probability" because we actually do know the variables
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Post by NotN7 on Mar 17, 2019 0:04:18 GMT
99% of the milky way is unexplored. They choose to go to Andromeda? Okay maybe the simple excuse is that they want to push the frontiers and stake a claim, forget about the personal dumb reasons of the individuals going since i find them all dumb. What about the tech? How the hell did they get there? Excuse given is that a geth megascope with super secret codes that will allow them to get to andromeda with a predefined path. And i guess the actual hardware is confiscated reaper tech after sovereign's death? Doesnt make sense. Please, thoughts? To Start welcome back Dutch But if you played the game they left because of the impending Reaper attack (Hint Benefactor) where they got the tech.? well Jene (think that's spelled right) was a very wealthy woman. so use your immageition and again the benefactor and no it has nothing to do with reaper tech. other wise they would be indoctrinated. but Nice try keep up the well work????
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Mar 23, 2019 2:24:37 GMT
You first: Explain to me why we first landed on the moon in 1969 and have, so far, sent 6 probes to look for water and signs of life on Mars, launched 3 space stations, and sent probes to both the inner and outer reaches of our solar system when: Also, since you think all the personal reasons given for going were dumb... what are you doing tending a bar on the Nexus?
Also all the maps in the game are pre-explored. There is no first contact because you showed up late. What was the point of this game if not “exploring” a new galaxy and actually being a pathfinder??? Pretty much this, there's no exploring to be done, it's all familiar by the time you get off the Tempest.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 23, 2019 8:02:56 GMT
Familiar to who, exactly?
Edit: I mean , they could have thrown a planet in there which neither kett, nor exiles, nor angara had ever set foot on, and when we got there we'd do.... what?
Ryder's the first MW person to set foot on Aya, and was only beaten to Voeld by the dead crew of the Periphona and to Havarl by a handful of crashed turians.
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They call me a Space Cowboy
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Aug 17, 2016 20:09:17 GMT
August 2016
spacecowboy
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
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Post by Space Cowboy on Mar 23, 2019 14:40:34 GMT
I was going to ask who necro'd this, then noticed it's a fairly new thread. lol.
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