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Post by shermos on Dec 1, 2019 16:49:50 GMT
The leaked dark energy script wasn't perfect, but it had potential. One of the top complaints people had about the ending we got was that inevitable organic vs synthetic conflict wasn't foreshadowed well. Cooperation with the Geth showed negotiation and coexistence is possible if perhaps difficult to achieve. It made the Catalyst look like an idiot or unable to question the assumptions the Leviathans put into its directive.
What "leaked dark energy script?" Please provide a link. All I've seen is this mention by Drew during an interview that basically says it was not even an idea that was "super fleshed out."
There's a big difference between writers bantering about various ideas and putting those ideas down into an actual script.
There was a demo version which was accidentally released and datamined by fans who put together a script. I'm pretty sure the dataminers found references to a dark energy plot which was later dropped. It was 8+ years ago. My memory could be a bit jumbled up. What we know for sure is that the dark energy problem was planned to be the primary motivation of the Reapers (or at least was a strong contender) up until the Arrival DLC for ME2 was released.
@mike The Reaper threat only made peace easier to achieve. Shep's discussions with legion in ME2 show that the "true" Geth didn't have any intention of going to war with organic races. In ME3, memory files from the morning war showed Geth trying to protect Quarians who disagreed with martial law. They also let the Quarian ships escaping Rannoch go as they didn't think it was necessary or desirable to completely exterminate their creators.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 17:08:34 GMT
What "leaked dark energy script?" Please provide a link. All I've seen is this mention by Drew during an interview that basically says it was not even an idea that was "super fleshed out."
There's a big difference between writers bantering about various ideas and putting those ideas down into an actual script.
There was a demo version which was accidentally released and datamined by fans who put together a script. I'm pretty sure the dataminers found references to a dark energy plot which was later dropped. It was 8+ years ago. My memory could be a bit jumbled up. What we know for sure is that the dark energy problem was planned to be the primary motivation of the Reapers (or at least was a strong contender) up until the Arrival DLC for ME2 was released.
I need a link. Right now, all I know for sure is that Drew himself said that the idea was NOT super fleshed out.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 1, 2019 21:06:50 GMT
By the end of ME2, the only meaningful thing we got any hints about that had potential to be more in the overarching narrative was dark energy. The organics vs. synthetics thing came off as more of a common trope used throughout these games, which then got slapped on to that silly kill organics to save them from synthetics bit. As for Synthesis and its potential, I guess that’s a matter of opinion, but in terms of its narrative, part of what makes it so unsatisfying is that all Synthesis really says to me is that learning to coexist is nonsense, and your differences will ultimately destroy you. You need to be altered to truly get along. I guess some people like that shit, but I just could never really gel with it. But we didn't get any meaningful hints. Playing Mass Effect I became a lore hound and nothing about the dark energy came across as anything more then the same tech babble that exists in the rest of the series. The only thing I got is that the Collectors might be utilizing a form of dark energy which fits with the whole super advanced Reaper connection utilizing technology that the rest of the Milky Way doesn't have access yet to and is only starting to uncover the basics of in a practical manner.
Just because it is a common trope doesn't discount the fact it had about 10,000x more actual plot development then dark energy did in ME2 alone.
As for Synthesis ending for all the advantages and cool tech the Geth have in terms of AI they are closer to an autistic 12 year olds due to their dependence on each other for thought. For example it takes Legion a total of 1,183 Geth to reach the level of EDI and actually fully realized AI. If you has 1,183 EDI working together they would be capable of advancements that would put all organic races to shame. Particularly when multiplied by the total number of Geth out there that has to range into the millions.
And each new generation of fully realized AI would be exponentially superior to the last generation as they would be a product of all of that advancement. And the issue is that organic life is created due to evolution and evolution is not that fast and could not keep up. The gap between organic and synthetic is like the gap between humanity and apes. Yes apes have been recorded using simple tools as weapons. But their primitive spears means nothing compared to our ability to fly and drop a nuclear weapon from thousands of feet in the air. Killing them and everything else in a mile radius instantly and slowly killing everything in a wider range from radioactive fallout.
That is what synthesis deals with bridging the gap that organic evolution simply can not keep up with.
Like I said, the trilogy was pretty aimless. Fair bet that at the time of ME1, the writers weren't sure what the reapers' ultimate goal actually was.
Plot development and the ME Trilogy are strained bedfellows, because by the end of ME2, little plot, if any, was actually developed, at least as far as the reaper conflict was concerned. We just learn they have a particular interest in humans, but we don't even know why until a Reaper Destroyer on Rannoch just happens to blather on about how they're our "salvation". With Legion and the revelation of the Heretics, the idea that synthetics would always be an enemy was already starting to lose its momentum. In the end, all there was was the dark energy idea.
It's more than likely that by even the end of ME2, the writers still had no real idea where to go with the reapers themselves. The trilogy has the distinct feel that they were making shit up as they went along, so now we just have to use our imagination to stitch it together so we can go "Oh, now it all makes sense!". For all of that, the ending suffered hard for it. Organic evolution doesn't really mean anything in the face of technological development. It's just that the Mass Effect universe has a really funny idea about what technological development entails, and how quickly that's actually supposed to happen. Like, quick-thinking, short-lived species like Salarians should be accelerated in the deveopment of technology throughout the galaxy. Even if the Citadel Council has laws against doing this and that, history tells us that societies give no shits about rules when there's opportunities to be had. There's nothing that indicates that synthetics should develop faster just because "They're AI". It's just that the MEU makes everyone molasses slow for Plot.
The idea that advanced, spacefaring species should remain largely the same after over 1000 years of using it is kind of a joke, but a joke played with a straight face.
But besides that, the ending just feels disjointed. It doesn't really gel with everything that was going on prior. It feels like some last minute add-on scrambled and cobbled together to wrap this thing up quickly and get it over with. With the way Priority: Earth seemed to be falling apart as a final act even before entering the Citadel, it really probably was. What we do now is a lot of mental gymnastics to reconcile it all to reassure ourselves.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 21:27:20 GMT
But we didn't get any meaningful hints. Playing Mass Effect I became a lore hound and nothing about the dark energy came across as anything more then the same tech babble that exists in the rest of the series. The only thing I got is that the Collectors might be utilizing a form of dark energy which fits with the whole super advanced Reaper connection utilizing technology that the rest of the Milky Way doesn't have access yet to and is only starting to uncover the basics of in a practical manner.
Just because it is a common trope doesn't discount the fact it had about 10,000x more actual plot development then dark energy did in ME2 alone.
As for Synthesis ending for all the advantages and cool tech the Geth have in terms of AI they are closer to an autistic 12 year olds due to their dependence on each other for thought. For example it takes Legion a total of 1,183 Geth to reach the level of EDI and actually fully realized AI. If you has 1,183 EDI working together they would be capable of advancements that would put all organic races to shame. Particularly when multiplied by the total number of Geth out there that has to range into the millions.
And each new generation of fully realized AI would be exponentially superior to the last generation as they would be a product of all of that advancement. And the issue is that organic life is created due to evolution and evolution is not that fast and could not keep up. The gap between organic and synthetic is like the gap between humanity and apes. Yes apes have been recorded using simple tools as weapons. But their primitive spears means nothing compared to our ability to fly and drop a nuclear weapon from thousands of feet in the air. Killing them and everything else in a mile radius instantly and slowly killing everything in a wider range from radioactive fallout.
That is what synthesis deals with bridging the gap that organic evolution simply can not keep up with.
Like I said, the trilogy was pretty aimless. Fair bet that at the time of ME1, the writers weren't sure what the reapers' ultimate goal actually was.
Plot development and the ME Trilogy are strained bedfellows, because by the end of ME2, little plot, if any, was actually developed, at least as far as the reaper conflict was concerned. We just learn they have a particular interest in humans, but we don't even know why until a Reaper Destroyer on Rannoch just happens to blather on about how they're our "salvation". With Legion and the revelation of the Heretics, the idea that synthetics would always be an enemy was already starting to lose its momentum. In the end, all there was was the dark energy idea.
It's more than likely that by even the end of ME2, the writers still had no real idea where to go with the reapers themselves. The trilogy has the distinct feel that they were making shit up as they went along, so now we just have to use our imagination to stitch it together so we can go "Oh, now it all makes sense!". For all of that, the ending suffered hard for it. Organic evolution doesn't really mean anything in the face of technological development. It's just that the Mass Effect universe has a really funny idea about what technological development entails, and how quickly that's actually supposed to happen. Like, quick-thinking, short-lived species like Salarians should be accelerated in the deveopment of technology throughout the galaxy. Even if the Citadel Council has laws against doing this and that, history tells us that societies give no shits about rules when there's opportunities to be had. There's nothing that indicates that synthetics should develop faster just because "They're AI". It's just that the MEU makes everyone molasses slow for Plot.
The idea that advanced, spacefaring species should remain largely the same after over 1000 years of using it is kind of a joke, but a joke played with a straight face.
But besides that, the ending just feels disjointed. It doesn't really gel with everything that was going on prior. It feels like some last minute add-on scrambled and cobbled together to wrap this thing up quickly and get it over with. With the way Priority: Earth seemed to be falling apart as a final act even before entering the Citadel, it really probably was. What we do now is a lot of mental gymnastics to reconcile it all to reassure ourselves.
I think they would get together over coffee and banter around a number of "not super fleshed out" ideas and say, yeah, something like that might be cool for a sequel game... and then they would insert vague hints about ALL of those loosely formed ideas just in case they decided to use them in that future game. It's different than actual plot development and proper foreshadowing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 22:03:34 GMT
There was a demo version which was accidentally released and datamined by fans who put together a script. I'm pretty sure the dataminers found references to a dark energy plot which was later dropped. It was 8+ years ago. My memory could be a bit jumbled up. What we know for sure is that the dark energy problem was planned to be the primary motivation of the Reapers (or at least was a strong contender) up until the Arrival DLC for ME2 was released.
Read this
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Post by Cyberstrike on Dec 1, 2019 22:07:04 GMT
In my opinion there never was a grand three act story. What BioWare MIGHT have had was a rough outline for three games and that changed because of change in ownership of BioWare, more money, new and/or access to better technology, creative changes, fan feedback and etc.
If you think there that was a detailed typed outline by Drew and Casey for all 3 games that is in a safety deposit box in a bank somewhere in Canada than I got some ocean front property in Arizona for for sale and if you act fast I'll throw the Golden Gate Bridge in for free.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 1, 2019 22:26:44 GMT
But we didn't get any meaningful hints. Playing Mass Effect I became a lore hound and nothing about the dark energy came across as anything more then the same tech babble that exists in the rest of the series. The only thing I got is that the Collectors might be utilizing a form of dark energy which fits with the whole super advanced Reaper connection utilizing technology that the rest of the Milky Way doesn't have access yet to and is only starting to uncover the basics of in a practical manner.
Just because it is a common trope doesn't discount the fact it had about 10,000x more actual plot development then dark energy did in ME2 alone.
As for Synthesis ending for all the advantages and cool tech the Geth have in terms of AI they are closer to an autistic 12 year olds due to their dependence on each other for thought. For example it takes Legion a total of 1,183 Geth to reach the level of EDI and actually fully realized AI. If you has 1,183 EDI working together they would be capable of advancements that would put all organic races to shame. Particularly when multiplied by the total number of Geth out there that has to range into the millions.
And each new generation of fully realized AI would be exponentially superior to the last generation as they would be a product of all of that advancement. And the issue is that organic life is created due to evolution and evolution is not that fast and could not keep up. The gap between organic and synthetic is like the gap between humanity and apes. Yes apes have been recorded using simple tools as weapons. But their primitive spears means nothing compared to our ability to fly and drop a nuclear weapon from thousands of feet in the air. Killing them and everything else in a mile radius instantly and slowly killing everything in a wider range from radioactive fallout.
That is what synthesis deals with bridging the gap that organic evolution simply can not keep up with.
Like I said, the trilogy was pretty aimless. Fair bet that at the time of ME1, the writers weren't sure what the reapers' ultimate goal actually was.
Plot development and the ME Trilogy are strained bedfellows, because by the end of ME2, little plot, if any, was actually developed, at least as far as the reaper conflict was concerned. We just learn they have a particular interest in humans, but we don't even know why until a Reaper Destroyer on Rannoch just happens to blather on about how they're our "salvation". With Legion and the revelation of the Heretics, the idea that synthetics would always be an enemy was already starting to lose its momentum. In the end, all there was was the dark energy idea.
It's more than likely that by even the end of ME2, the writers still had no real idea where to go with the reapers themselves. The trilogy has the distinct feel that they were making shit up as they went along, so now we just have to use our imagination to stitch it together so we can go "Oh, now it all makes sense!". For all of that, the ending suffered hard for it. Organic evolution doesn't really mean anything in the face of technological development. It's just that the Mass Effect universe has a really funny idea about what technological development entails, and how quickly that's actually supposed to happen. Like, quick-thinking, short-lived species like Salarians should be accelerated in the deveopment of technology throughout the galaxy. Even if the Citadel Council has laws against doing this and that, history tells us that societies give no shits about rules when there's opportunities to be had. There's nothing that indicates that synthetics should develop faster just because "They're AI". It's just that the MEU makes everyone molasses slow for Plot.
The idea that advanced, spacefaring species should remain largely the same after over 1000 years of using it is kind of a joke, but a joke played with a straight face.
But besides that, the ending just feels disjointed. It doesn't really gel with everything that was going on prior. It feels like some last minute add-on scrambled and cobbled together to wrap this thing up quickly and get it over with. With the way Priority: Earth seemed to be falling apart as a final act even before entering the Citadel, it really probably was. What we do now is a lot of mental gymnastics to reconcile it all to reassure ourselves.
And that doesn't change the fact that Organic vs Synthetic life and the conflict is explored as is the massive advantages. In ME1 and 2 the Geth are both shown to be supeiror in tech and combat abilitiy to your average solider. During the mission to the Moon Hackett out right spells out how reliant the Alliance is on VI from targeting to handling com chatter. That is the entire point of pushing to make the most advanced VI possible without straying into AI territory. EDI's first introduction is out right explaining that she will handle the cyber warfare because she is capable of reaction times far beyond what organic life is capable of. And later when Joker removes her blocks she takes over the entire ship and flies it solo. And action that normally takes half a dozen people to do. There are several times that EDI saves the day in ME2 specifically because she is an AI. This continues in ME3 were a lot of instance of EDI being an AI helps doing things that organics wouldn't be capable of doing or at least doing things at rates that organics couldn't possible do in the same time frame.
The ending "gels" with the rest of the game fairly well given the Quarian and Geth conflict has been a major aspect of the game series.
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Post by skekSil on Dec 1, 2019 23:07:29 GMT
Thanks to Extended Cut we know what happens in Galaxy after Sheppard's choise. And all of the endings are the way Catayst has described. Meaning he was telling the truth. So there is little reason to believe he was lying about "organics vs synthetics". Besides Leviathans confirm this part too. When talking about the red, the thing says the chaos will return. I didn't see any chaos in the epilogue. Does that mean the thing was wrong? Epilogue only shows immidiate results (years, decades maybe a couple of centuries). Kid says that eventually, someone, somewhere will create synthetics and fighting will resume. Eventually as in it can happen million of years later but it will happen.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 1, 2019 23:22:34 GMT
When talking about the red, the thing says the chaos will return. I didn't see any chaos in the epilogue. Does that mean the thing was wrong? Epilogue only shows immidiate results (years, decades maybe a couple of centuries). Kid says that eventually, someone, somewhere will create synthetics and fighting will resume. Eventually as in it can happen million of years later but it will happen. Eh, that's not very convincing, and ultimately doesn't matter. The universe could end because the Great Green Arkleseizure wills it by then. If it's just some sort of kinda ominous thing that isn't shown, then the possibility of it simply not happening ever will always be there. Basically, I have to commit to the idea that the Catalyst is infallible in its logic, yet I have absolutely no reason to buy that.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 1, 2019 23:37:51 GMT
When talking about the red, the thing says the chaos will return. I didn't see any chaos in the epilogue. Does that mean the thing was wrong? Epilogue only shows immidiate results (years, decades maybe a couple of centuries). Kid says that eventually, someone, somewhere will create synthetics and fighting will resume. Eventually as in it can happen million of years later but it will happen. In regards to the ending it seems like human nature kicks in to hard. We simply are not programed to understand the scale that the Catalyst talks about. We live lives measured in decades with a small percentage living to be a century. But the Catalyst is talking about time frames over millions of years of observation and watching the cycle continue. A single life span is but a drop in the ocean of time and even long lived species like Krogan and Asari are still nothing in that time frame.
Case in point the US Foreign Aid. As for the 2018 year it totaled 50.1 billion dollars. Which sounds like a ton of money and that has lead to many polls of people thinking the foreign aid budget is far to high and takes up far to much of the yearly US budget. But the fact is the foreign aid only takes up like 1% of the US yearly budget. We are just not use to thinking on that scale to the point that 50 billion is literally the equivalent of a penny.
And just to be safe I am not calling anyone stupid. Nor am I claiming that people are incapable of realizing this. Only that we are not use to thinking on such a large scale and picturing it can be a struggle for everyone. Particularly since all of recorded human history fits only about 6,000 years
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Post by skekSil on Dec 1, 2019 23:49:49 GMT
Epilogue only shows immidiate results (years, decades maybe a couple of centuries). Kid says that eventually, someone, somewhere will create synthetics and fighting will resume. Eventually as in it can happen million of years later but it will happen. Eh, that's not very convincing, and ultimately doesn't matter. The universe could end because the Great Green Arkleseizure wills it by then. If it's just some sort of kinda ominous thing that isn't shown, then the possibility of it simply not happening ever will always be there. Basically, I have to commit to the idea that the Catalyst is infallible in its logic, yet I have absolutely no reason to buy that. Unconvincing what? Leviathans have been for god knows how long and have observed organics developing AI that tries to kill them so many times they felt the need to seeek solution to this problem. We know protheans had to fight against AI and the latest AI uprising was only 300 hundred years ago. And we see several rogue AI during events of ME1. Id say it is well established that, if nothing is to be done, creation of synthetics is unavoidable and war with them is more likely than not.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 0:00:41 GMT
Even though this thread was supposed to be about the future of Mass Effect, it all keeps coming back to ME3's ending.
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Post by skekSil on Dec 2, 2019 0:02:08 GMT
In regards to the ending it seems like human nature kicks in to hard. We simply are not programed to understand the scale that the Catalyst talks about. We live lives measured in decades with a small percentage living to be a century. But the Catalyst is talking about time frames over millions of years of observation and watching the cycle continue. A single life span is but a drop in the ocean of time and even long lived species like Krogan and Asari are still nothing in that time frame.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 2, 2019 1:29:42 GMT
When talking about the red, the thing says the chaos will return. I didn't see any chaos in the epilogue. Does that mean the thing was wrong? Epilogue only shows immidiate results (years, decades maybe a couple of centuries). Kid says that eventually, someone, somewhere will create synthetics and fighting will resume. Eventually as in it can happen million of years later but it will happen. The thing says, soon your children will create synthetics, and then the chaos will return. Shepard will live however long after destroying the reapers. If there has been no chaos before he/she dies, the thing is wrong. It might happen after, but Shepard wouldn't know.
The thing also says that the green can't be forced, yet Shepard is the one forcing it on the galaxy. Is the thing wrong? Yes. All it's doing is buttering up the green because it's the only choice it survives.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 2, 2019 2:39:44 GMT
It's not like the AI which caused a galaxy-wide disaster lasting for millennia is supposed to be right about stuff.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 2, 2019 2:50:57 GMT
Eh, that's not very convincing, and ultimately doesn't matter. The universe could end because the Great Green Arkleseizure wills it by then. If it's just some sort of kinda ominous thing that isn't shown, then the possibility of it simply not happening ever will always be there. Basically, I have to commit to the idea that the Catalyst is infallible in its logic, yet I have absolutely no reason to buy that. Unconvincing what? Leviathans have been for god knows how long and have observed organics developing AI that tries to kill them so many times they felt the need to seeek solution to this problem. We know protheans had to fight against AI and the latest AI uprising was only 300 hundred years ago. And we see several rogue AI during events of ME1. Id say it is well established that, if nothing is to be done, creation of synthetics is unavoidable and war with them is more likely than not. But none of it matters as far as the epilogues are concerned. No matter how much anyone tries to push the whole eventually the machines will rise thing, it’s just not a convincing sell. If all it can do is tell while showing nothing, but then it only shows the positive results of the choice and leave whatever to my imagination, what am I supposed to rely on? The unreliable character that shows up at the last second? The message simply fails, and fails hard, so I just destroy them and leave it at that. If I’m required to use my imagination to conjure up a follow-up of what happens later, my idea that a subsequent machine uprising is simply defeated is no less valid than anyone else’s guess. Like, nothing the game even precludes the possibility that any future conflict can be won by the races of the Milky Way.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 2, 2019 4:08:02 GMT
Unconvincing what? Leviathans have been for god knows how long and have observed organics developing AI that tries to kill them so many times they felt the need to seeek solution to this problem. We know protheans had to fight against AI and the latest AI uprising was only 300 hundred years ago. And we see several rogue AI during events of ME1. Id say it is well established that, if nothing is to be done, creation of synthetics is unavoidable and war with them is more likely than not. But none of it matters as far as the epilogues are concerned. No matter how much anyone tries to push the whole eventually the machines will rise thing, it’s just not a convincing sell. If all it can do is tell while showing nothing, but then it only shows the positive results of the choice and leave whatever to my imagination. The message simply fails, and fails hard, so I just destroy them and leave it at that. If I’m required to use my imagination to conjure up a follow-up of what happens later, my idea that a subsequent machine uprising is simply defeated is no less valid than anyone else’s guess. Like, nothing the game even precludes the possibility that any future conflict can be won by the races of the Milky Way. Because players would complain if Destroy had any negative aspects. I've already gone over it before but the basic implication before the EC hand waves away is that Destroy would cause the direct death of millions and indirect death of billions as a consequence of wiping out technology. Ships drifting in space as their crews slowly die from lack of clean air to breath. Thousands of shuttles dropping from the air to smash into the ground killing their occupants and anyone near by. War ravaged and backwater planets that need outside help or relied on supply drops now have no way to get access to the supplies they need resulting in death by disease or starvation.
But they don't even attempt to hint at this with EC how now makes the tech wipe beam only magically target Reapers because if it showed that actual effect then players would throw an absolute shit hurricane because it would have a negative aspect to it. FFS they even added the breath scene on high EMS Destroy to make fans happy. This is also why Destroy is the weakest ending to me.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 2, 2019 4:26:09 GMT
But none of it matters as far as the epilogues are concerned. No matter how much anyone tries to push the whole eventually the machines will rise thing, it’s just not a convincing sell. If all it can do is tell while showing nothing, but then it only shows the positive results of the choice and leave whatever to my imagination. The message simply fails, and fails hard, so I just destroy them and leave it at that. If I’m required to use my imagination to conjure up a follow-up of what happens later, my idea that a subsequent machine uprising is simply defeated is no less valid than anyone else’s guess. Like, nothing the game even precludes the possibility that any future conflict can be won by the races of the Milky Way. Because players would complain if Destroy had any negative aspects. I've already gone over it before but the basic implication before the EC hand waves away is that Destroy would cause the direct death of millions and indirect death of billions as a consequence of wiping out technology. Ships drifting in space as their crews slowly die from lack of clean air to breath. Thousands of shuttles dropping from the air to smash into the ground killing their occupants and anyone near by. War ravaged and backwater planets that need outside help or relied on supply drops now have no way to get access to the supplies they need resulting in death by disease or starvation.
But they don't even attempt to hint at this with EC how now makes the tech wipe beam only magically target Reapers because if it showed that actual effect then players would throw an absolute shit hurricane because it would have a negative aspect to it. FFS they even added the breath scene on high EMS Destroy to make fans happy. This is also why Destroy is the weakest ending to me.
Well, the same would be true of Renegade Control. I could've stood to see some reapers zapping Batarians or Krogan because they inevitably got out of line in the future. In any case, the original ending was so abrupt and nonsensical that it more of a cheap attempt at being thought provoking. It didn't really matter which ending was even picked at that point. It was just a befuddling mess that practically ruined the franchise. It needed something to expand upon those choices to be even remotely worthwhile. Like, this ain't The Sopranos. It can't just END all of a sudden and have it be a good ending.
The tech wipe beam still targets non-Reaper tech, being the AI's. For all this stuff about reaper code, it's as if the concept of what "code" actually is gets thrown out the window. As if an EMP will only target Windows and MacOS, but somehow spare Linux machines. It's one of those silly space magic things that I just shrug off as "Well that's Mass Effect for you." The reason I say this is because the Shepard breath scene was not a new addition; it was always a part of the base game. It's just that it was impossible to get on the max EMS you could get in the campaign without raising it further with multiplayer. It was changed because people were rightly pissed off that they were forced to do multiplayer to have all singleplayer outcomes available to them. So, technically, Shepard's breath scene had the highest requirement of all the endings to obtain. Any implication of what would happen if you chose Destroy got thrown out when you see that Shepard can still live, despite being on the Citadel in orbit.
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Post by skekSil on Dec 2, 2019 8:23:07 GMT
If there has been no chaos before he/she dies, the thing is wrong. Are you saying Shepad souldn't worry about stuff that will happen after his death? But none of it matters as far as the epilogues are concerned. No matter how much anyone tries to push the whole eventually the machines will rise thing, it’s just not a convincing sell. If all it can do is tell while showing nothing, but then it only shows the positive results of the choice and leave whatever to my imagination, what am I supposed to rely on? The ending shows us that Reaper war has ended. Peace > war. So yes, in that sense all endings are good. I just destroy them and leave it at that. If I’m required to use my imagination to conjure up a follow-up of what happens later, my idea that a subsequent machine uprising is simply defeated is no less valid than anyone else’s guess. Like, nothing the game even precludes the possibility that any future conflict can be won by the races of the Milky Way. If your doctor tells you that smoking can cause cancer, you can have your next cigarette and feel good after it. You can have thousands of cigarettes and have no health problems. Or eventually get cancer and get it cured. Does that mean that doctor's warnings are unfounded and should be ignored.
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 2, 2019 9:38:58 GMT
As far as the underlying message is concerned, Synthesis is a terrible ending.
Assimilation is peace. Diversity is destruction. Ugh.
The entire "synthetics vs organics" conflict is a non-argument. It implies that both sides are unable to recognize coexistence as the best option, when the only faction that utterly, completely refuses coexistence are the reapers themselves.
But even if it were really inevitable that synthetics would go to war against organics again, how much of a difference would that make? The Milky Way has always had its share of conflict and warfare, and the geth would just be one more hostile faction in all this. There will always be strife in the galaxy. Again, the only truly catastrophic aspect of a synthetics vs organics war are the reapers themselves because they cannot be successfully opposed by any military means according to the word of god.
The obvious conclusion is that the galaxy would be better off without reapers. Remove them, and the potential problem of synthetics vs organics becomes just one more armed struggle, no different from clashes with Batarians or Rachni and whatnot. And at that point the writers take the geth and EDI as hostages should the player pick that option. "Shoot that tube and the toasters get it, I dare you!" A bullshit consequence to cover a bullshit choice's ass.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 2, 2019 13:15:14 GMT
Are you saying Shepad souldn't worry about stuff that will happen after his death? Why would my Shepard worry about something that hasn't happened and has no control over?
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 2, 2019 16:06:37 GMT
What "leaked dark energy script?" Please provide a link. All I've seen is this mention by Drew during an interview that basically says it was not even an idea that was "super fleshed out."
There's a big difference between writers bantering about various ideas and putting those ideas down into an actual script.
There was a demo version which was accidentally released and datamined by fans who put together a script. I'm pretty sure the dataminers found references to a dark energy plot which was later dropped. It was 8+ years ago. My memory could be a bit jumbled up. What we know for sure is that the dark energy problem was planned to be the primary motivation of the Reapers (or at least was a strong contender) up until the Arrival DLC for ME2 was released.
@mike The Reaper threat only made peace easier to achieve. Shep's discussions with legion in ME2 show that the "true" Geth didn't have any intention of going to war with organic races. In ME3, memory files from the morning war showed Geth trying to protect Quarians who disagreed with martial law. They also let the Quarian ships escaping Rannoch go as they didn't think it was necessary or desirable to completely exterminate their creators.
That is just what people put together with finding a little information. Personally I find that Drew's response is the best where "it was one of the ideas" seems to make sense for they would have been trying to work things in, but because people want the endings to be a glorious as a Klingon Battle versus Tribbles they are able to find what they want to find. Even if it was found in datamined content it still doesn't mean it was going to be the overall ending it just means that there was going to be more then one side quest/recruitment mission talking about Dark Energy. I am pretty sure if I wanted to I could put together a script where all along Shepard was going to sacrifice themselves for an order of poutine by piecing together bits and pieces from content that could be completely out of context to where it belongs in the game.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 2, 2019 16:25:53 GMT
Are you saying Shepad souldn't worry about stuff that will happen after his death? Why would my Shepard worry about something that hasn't happened and has no control over? Well, he does have control over it if he's got more choices than Destroy available. Although if he doesn't think it's likely to happen, or thinks it will be manageable if it does, he's free to not care about it.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 2, 2019 16:35:10 GMT
Because players would complain if Destroy had any negative aspects. I've already gone over it before but the basic implication before the EC hand waves away is that Destroy would cause the direct death of millions and indirect death of billions as a consequence of wiping out technology. Ships drifting in space as their crews slowly die from lack of clean air to breath. Thousands of shuttles dropping from the air to smash into the ground killing their occupants and anyone near by. War ravaged and backwater planets that need outside help or relied on supply drops now have no way to get access to the supplies they need resulting in death by disease or starvation. But they don't even attempt to hint at this with EC how now makes the tech wipe beam only magically target Reapers because if it showed that actual effect then players would throw an absolute shit hurricane because it would have a negative aspect to it. FFS they even added the breath scene on high EMS Destroy to make fans happy. This is also why Destroy is the weakest ending to me. Wait a second.... the breath clip is pre-EC. People who have looked at Bio statements on it think that the inflated EMS requirements pre-EC were due to simple incompetence -- late rebalancing and cuts lowered acheivable EMS totals, but nobody remembered to lower the threshold for the clip. (The conspiracy-theory version of this is that higher-ups were deliberately trying to push MP.) Note that devs posting on the old forums had no idea what fans were talking about in the week after release; many of them insisted that getting the clip was possible without MP, but they had tested a version of the game where that was true. I agree with your general point, although since the pre-EC version did everything by implementation, I'm not sure this technically should count as a retcon. There still is at least some starvation and death, since some clusters have settlements but don't have garden worlds.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 2, 2019 16:46:37 GMT
As far as the underlying message is concerned, Synthesis is a terrible ending. Assimilation is peace. Diversity is destruction. Ugh. The entire "synthetics vs organics" conflict is a non-argument. It implies that both sides are unable to recognize coexistence as the best option, when the only faction that utterly, completely refuses coexistence are the reapers themselves. But even if it were really inevitable that synthetics would go to war against organics again, how much of a difference would that make? The Milky Way has always had its share of conflict and warfare, and the geth would just be one more hostile faction in all this. There will always be strife in the galaxy. Again, the only truly catastrophic aspect of a synthetics vs organics war are the reapers themselves because they cannot be successfully opposed by any military means according to the word of god. The obvious conclusion is that the galaxy would be better off without reapers. Remove them, and the potential problem of synthetics vs organics becomes just one more armed struggle, no different from clashes with Batarians or Rachni and whatnot. And at that point the writers take the geth and EDI as hostages should the player pick that option. "Shoot that tube and the toasters get it, I dare you!" A bullshit consequence to cover a bullshit choice's ass. Hmm... so you figure that in playtesting the final choice looked like a no-brainer, so they made it worse with the easiest thing at hand? Although depending on what happened at Rannoch, it could be just EDI plus a bunch of AI's we've never met, which isn't a great amount of leverage. Note that on this reading nobody was sending that underlying message. I take it that your interpretive theory is that messages can be unintended and implicit;.I don't really like using the word "message" for that concept myself, but I guess it's shorter than the clumsy workarounds we'd have to use to avoid the word. One of the reasons I was less bothered by the ending than many is that I don't really do interpretation that way, particularly in a CRPG. My takeaway was that the effects of the Crucible said something about the intent of the idiots who designed it -- be they Bio devs, Protheans, Leviathans, or whoever -- and nothing more.
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