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Post by Iakus on Nov 30, 2019 18:25:01 GMT
I could have done without that mental image.... Visual thinker here.
I still enjoy replaying modded ME3, but can see where Iakus is coming from. The dark energy plot would have been better to go with imo. My main beef with what we got is that Synthesis is presented as the best choice. It should have been setup so that every choice has an equally good ending (apart from refuse) and only comes down to your personal ethics and views. But Hack Walters couldn't help pushing his own on the player.
You mean the dark energy plot that was literally like 3 lines in ME2 with 0 hint or reference to it. So much so that it literally took a year after I beat ME series while searching online to actually find out it was an actual plot point and not just a convenient reason to have Tali in the Perseus Veil to match with her loyalty mission involving Geth.
Synthesis is the best choice because of the massive potential it offers. They down played the hell out of Destroy ending and Control ending is about what would be expected. The ending of ME3 does literally come down to your own personal ethics and views.
Honestly, I don't know if the dark energy ending would have been any better than the radioactive dumpster fire we got. But there were at least three events foreshadowing it in ME2 (that I can recall): Veetor detecting dark energy readings during the Collector attack on Freedom's Progress Gianna Parasini mentions a number of Noveria's clients expressing unusual interest in dark energy research Tali tells Shepard that Haestrom's sun is aging prematurely due to some kind of dark energy contamination.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 21:21:51 GMT
I could have done without that mental image.... Visual thinker here.
I still enjoy replaying modded ME3, but can see where Iakus is coming from. The dark energy plot would have been better to go with imo. My main beef with what we got is that Synthesis is presented as the best choice. It should have been setup so that every choice has an equally good ending (apart from refuse) and only comes down to your personal ethics and views. But Hack Walters couldn't help pushing his own on the player.
You believe synthesis is the best choice, because the so-called Catalyst says it is? Well that's what he thinks. What do you think?
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Nov 30, 2019 21:53:13 GMT
I could have done without that mental image.... Visual thinker here.
I still enjoy replaying modded ME3, but can see where Iakus is coming from. The dark energy plot would have been better to go with imo. My main beef with what we got is that Synthesis is presented as the best choice. It should have been setup so that every choice has an equally good ending (apart from refuse) and only comes down to your personal ethics and views. But Hack Walters couldn't help pushing his own on the player.
You believe synthesis is the best choice, because the so-called Catalyst says it is? Well that's what he thinks. What do you think? I think there is no "bad" ending for Synthesis, unlike Destroy or Control I think It has the highest EMS requirement of any of the endings. I think we are intended to take everything the Catalyst says at face value. I think they tried to further emphasize the "Synthesis is AWESOME!" idea with Ryder and SAM in MEA. So yeah, I think Mac was pushing his own ideas on the player.
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Post by skekSil on Nov 30, 2019 22:40:42 GMT
I could have done without that mental image.... Visual thinker here.
I still enjoy replaying modded ME3, but can see where Iakus is coming from. The dark energy plot would have been better to go with imo. My main beef with what we got is that Synthesis is presented as the best choice. It should have been setup so that every choice has an equally good ending (apart from refuse) and only comes down to your personal ethics and views. But Hack Walters couldn't help pushing his own on the player.
You believe synthesis is the best choice, because the so-called Catalyst says it is? Well that's what he thinks. What do you think? Synthesis is the only ending that deals with that whole organics vs synthetics dillema. Destroy and Control are basically Catalyst patting organics on shoulder and saying: "Lets hope you will have more luck then me, chump. Me? I'm outta here."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2019 22:55:06 GMT
You believe synthesis is the best choice, because the so-called Catalyst says it is? Well that's what he thinks. What do you think? Synthesis is the only ending that deals with that whole organics vs synthetics dillema. Destroy and Control are basically Catalyst patting organics on shoulder and saying: "Lets hope you will have more luck then me, chump. Me? I'm outta here." What organics vs synthetics dilemma?
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Post by skekSil on Nov 30, 2019 23:07:52 GMT
The one that Catalyst was created to solve. Synthetics rising up against organics.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 30, 2019 23:40:57 GMT
You mean the dark energy plot that was literally like 3 lines in ME2 with 0 hint or reference to it. So much so that it literally took a year after I beat ME series while searching online to actually find out it was an actual plot point and not just a convenient reason to have Tali in the Perseus Veil to match with her loyalty mission involving Geth.
Synthesis is the best choice because of the massive potential it offers. They down played the hell out of Destroy ending and Control ending is about what would be expected. The ending of ME3 does literally come down to your own personal ethics and views.
Honestly, I don't know if the dark energy ending would have been any better than the radioactive dumpster fire we got. But there were at least three events foreshadowing it in ME2 (that I can recall): Veetor detecting dark energy readings during the Collector attack on Freedom's Progress Gianna Parasini mentions a number of Noveria's clients expressing unusual interest in dark energy research Tali tells Shepard that Haestrom's sun is aging prematurely due to some kind of dark energy contamination. So how would this hint at anything given these are literally 1 or 2 line statements that are completely over shadowed by what happens next? I mean literally nothing about this connects to the plot at all and sounds like the same rule of cool they have always applied when talking about technology.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 0:01:41 GMT
The one that Catalyst was created to solve. Synthetics rising up against organics. You mean organics vs geth or AI? The Reapers conflict with us is about the harvesting of advanced organic life. That's the whole reason come to the Milky Way evety 50K years. They enslave their enemies (eg. the geth) or they harvest organics if deemed worthy. Everything else is indoctrinated to serve as slave labor. There was a line in TIM scene which says "they've got us fighting each other instead of fighting them". Which is foreshadowing for the Catalyst's line about some imaginary "organic synthetic conflict". If we're fighting each other, then the Reapers have you distracted and they can go and do more harvesting. This is a classic divide and conquer strategy. They can also suggest to you that there is a "real conflict" between you and your friends when there actually isn't one. Something in the codex about the Reapers can give you the feeling of betraying friends or even trusting the Reapers or their allies. If you believe there is a conflict because the Catalyst says there is, then they managed to convince you of their beliefs as the truth and your beliefs are incorrect. This is an example of cognitive dissonance which is common with brainwashing/mind control.
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Post by skekSil on Dec 1, 2019 0:58:42 GMT
Thanks to Extended Cut we know what happens in Galaxy after Sheppard's choise. And all of the endings are the way Catayst has described. Meaning he was telling the truth. So there is little reason to believe he was lying about "organics vs synthetics". Besides Leviathans confirm this part too.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 1, 2019 2:49:36 GMT
ME1 only started becoming tough for me to get through after ME3. After that, knowing what was in store for Shepard and the galaxy, the whole story just felt pointless. Before then, I had lost track of how many runs I had done. For me it become a bit tougher because of the horribly aged and clumsy combat mechanics. If it wasn’t for all the fun dialogue I could never have endured a second go of that system.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 1, 2019 2:56:17 GMT
ME1 only started becoming tough for me to get through after ME3. After that, knowing what was in store for Shepard and the galaxy, the whole story just felt pointless. Before then, I had lost track of how many runs I had done. For me it become a bit tougher because of the horribly aged and clumsy combat mechanics. If it wasn’t for all the fun dialogue I could never have endured a second go of that system. Yeah it's kind of one thing that for me DAO and ME1 both have in common tbh. For me they both have clumsy combat mechanics and slightly dodgy graphics compared with the rest of their series but both also have awesom stories that kind of help you see pas the negatives and enjoy the games regardless.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 1, 2019 3:02:17 GMT
I could have done without that mental image.... Visual thinker here.
I still enjoy replaying modded ME3, but can see where Iakus is coming from. The dark energy plot would have been better to go with imo. My main beef with what we got is that Synthesis is presented as the best choice. It should have been setup so that every choice has an equally good ending (apart from refuse) and only comes down to your personal ethics and views. But Hack Walters couldn't help pushing his own on the player.
You mean the dark energy plot that was literally like 3 lines in ME2 with 0 hint or reference to it. So much so that it literally took a year after I beat ME series while searching online to actually find out it was an actual plot point and not just a convenient reason to have Tali in the Perseus Veil to match with her loyalty mission involving Geth.
Synthesis is the best choice because of the massive potential it offers. They down played the hell out of Destroy ending and Control ending is about what would be expected. The ending of ME3 does literally come down to your own personal ethics and views.
By the end of ME2, the only meaningful thing we got any hints about that had potential to be more in the overarching narrative was dark energy. The organics vs. synthetics thing came off as more of a common trope used throughout these games, which then got slapped on to that silly kill organics to save them from synthetics bit. As for Synthesis and its potential, I guess that’s a matter of opinion, but in terms of its narrative, part of what makes it so unsatisfying is that all Synthesis really says to me is that learning to coexist is nonsense, and your differences will ultimately destroy you. You need to be altered to truly get along. I guess some people like that shit, but I just could never really gel with it.
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Post by ahglock on Dec 1, 2019 3:32:46 GMT
ME1 only started becoming tough for me to get through after ME3. After that, knowing what was in store for Shepard and the galaxy, the whole story just felt pointless. Before then, I had lost track of how many runs I had done. I still don’t have problems getting through it. It’s a awesome story. I do most of the side quests except the gather ones. Though I try to collect the matriarch ones just because I like the Conrad ending. Mea I have a much harder time getting though I think it’s mainly because it’s like 50+ hours to get through based on the quests I do. ME1 is like 25. Though I do think ME1 has a more engaging story.
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Post by ahglock on Dec 1, 2019 3:40:55 GMT
For me it become a bit tougher because of the horribly aged and clumsy combat mechanics. If it wasn’t for all the fun dialogue I could never have endured a second go of that system. Yeah it's kind of one thing that for me DAO and ME1 both have in common tbh. For me they both have clumsy combat mechanics and slightly dodgy graphics compared with the rest of their series but both also have awesom stories that kind of help you see pas the negatives and enjoy the games regardless. I generally agree the combat is dated though I’m fine with it. I think in a rpg shooter skill increases upping damage as opposed to accuracy was a positive move in 2 and later. Though imo DAO has the best combat of art eh dragon age games.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 4:46:55 GMT
As for Synthesis and its potential, I guess that’s a matter of opinion, but in terms of its narrative, part of what makes it so unsatisfying is that all Synthesis really says to me is that learning to coexist is nonsense, and your differences will ultimately destroy you. You need to be altered to truly get along. I guess some people like that shit, but I just could never really gel with it. You co-exist just fine with your allies. What the Reapers think of that is irrelevant. It's just their opinion. Your DNA is altered, because the Reapers have been telling for quite a while it will be. EDI: As the line between synthetics and organics disappears, we may transcend mortality itself. To reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine. Harbinger: Your species will be raised to a new existence. We will bring your species into harmony with our own. We are your genetic destiny. That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction (eg. razed to a new existence). Sovereign: There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own, you cannot even imagine it. We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Saren: The relationship is symbiotic--organic and machine intertwined. A union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither. I am a vision of the future Shepard, the evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true rebirth. Catalyst: We help them ascend, so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form. Harbinger: I am the Harbinger of your ascendance. Prepare these humans for ascension. Now what you see under synthesis, people weren't just implanted with Reaper tech while they were alive. They were razed, and then reborn into a Reaper-hybrid. EDI: I am ALIVE! All of us. Synthetic and organic have been changed. And the Reapers are no longer harvesting you because everyone is part-Reaper now (we are your genetic destiny). So the galaxy is at peace since the Reapers succeeded in their harvest.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 1, 2019 5:07:01 GMT
The whole idea of transcending mortality seems kind of terrible. Everything dies, and that's the way it should be.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 1, 2019 12:43:46 GMT
]Honestly, I don't know if the dark energy ending would have been any better than the radioactive dumpster fire we got. Once Hackett tells Shepard the crucible has enough energy to destroy the reapers, that is your ending. After that, someone at Bioware went and had some Nepolitan ice cream. They thought wouldn't it be cool if ME3 has 3 different color endings? You believe synthesis is the best choice, because the so-called Catalyst says it is? Well that's what he thinks. What do you think? I think if your enemy says it's the ideal slolution now that we know it's possible is to avoid choosing want it wants. I think there is no "bad" ending for Synthesis, unlike Destroy or Control Green is bad since it's what the thing wants Shepard to choose. The red is good. The reapers are destroyed. That's good. The blue is bad because it's something TIM wanted and has the reapers remaining 2700 is needed for the green whereas 3100 is needed for the breath scene. Unfortunately Shepard couldn't ask more questions about what the thing says Yeah. The little duck, I mean Ryder, on a leash with the Sam voice thing leading the way. Can't even tell the voice thing to shutup. Nothing awesome about that.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 1, 2019 12:54:42 GMT
Thanks to Extended Cut we know what happens in Galaxy after Sheppard's choise. And all of the endings are the way Catayst has described. Meaning he was telling the truth. So there is little reason to believe he was lying about "organics vs synthetics". Besides Leviathans confirm this part too. When talking about the red, the thing says the chaos will return. I didn't see any chaos in the epilogue. Does that mean the thing was wrong?
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 1, 2019 13:21:51 GMT
Thanks to Extended Cut we know what happens in Galaxy after Sheppard's choise. And all of the endings are the way Catayst has described. Meaning he was telling the truth. So there is little reason to believe he was lying about "organics vs synthetics". Besides Leviathans confirm this part too. When talking about the red, the thing says the chaos will return. I didn't see any chaos in the epilogue. Does that mean the thing was wrong? And that's the thing. According to the Extended Cut, all endings are definitely good. We basically have to just imagine that the post-Destroy setting is someday overrun with machines, but considering how "The Shepard" is a thing human beings still talk about, I guess that never happens. Oh well. [shoots tube]
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 1, 2019 13:36:17 GMT
When talking about the red, the thing says the chaos will return. I didn't see any chaos in the epilogue. Does that mean the thing was wrong? And that's the thing. According to the Extended Cut, all endings are definitely good. We basically have to just imagine that the post-Destroy setting is someday overrun with machines, but considering how "The Shepard" is a thing human beings still talk about, I guess that never happens. Oh well. [shoots tube] Yeah all the blanks aer always just giong to have to be filled by our imagination. I don't think anyon ereall ytrul;y knows even hte Catalyst they'er only going by experiences that they've seen an dhad programmed int othem when they were created. Personally I just pick based on my curren tShep's personality and what they feel is the right call. Most o fthe time that's Symthesis or conrtol though. Only my renegade ones have a tendency to pick destroy.
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Post by shermos on Dec 1, 2019 15:19:19 GMT
You mean the dark energy plot that was literally like 3 lines in ME2 with 0 hint or reference to it. So much so that it literally took a year after I beat ME series while searching online to actually find out it was an actual plot point and not just a convenient reason to have Tali in the Perseus Veil to match with her loyalty mission involving Geth.
Synthesis is the best choice because of the massive potential it offers. They down played the hell out of Destroy ending and Control ending is about what would be expected. The ending of ME3 does literally come down to your own personal ethics and views.
Honestly, I don't know if the dark energy ending would have been any better than the radioactive dumpster fire we got. But there were at least three events foreshadowing it in ME2 (that I can recall): Veetor detecting dark energy readings during the Collector attack on Freedom's Progress Gianna Parasini mentions a number of Noveria's clients expressing unusual interest in dark energy research Tali tells Shepard that Haestrom's sun is aging prematurely due to some kind of dark energy contamination.
The leaked dark energy script wasn't perfect, but it had potential. One of the top complaints people had about the ending we got was that inevitable organic vs synthetic conflict wasn't foreshadowed well. Cooperation with the Geth showed negotiation and coexistence is possible if perhaps difficult to achieve. It made the Catalyst look like an idiot or unable to question the assumptions the Leviathans put into its directive.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 1, 2019 15:42:07 GMT
You mean the dark energy plot that was literally like 3 lines in ME2 with 0 hint or reference to it. So much so that it literally took a year after I beat ME series while searching online to actually find out it was an actual plot point and not just a convenient reason to have Tali in the Perseus Veil to match with her loyalty mission involving Geth.
Synthesis is the best choice because of the massive potential it offers. They down played the hell out of Destroy ending and Control ending is about what would be expected. The ending of ME3 does literally come down to your own personal ethics and views.
By the end of ME2, the only meaningful thing we got any hints about that had potential to be more in the overarching narrative was dark energy. The organics vs. synthetics thing came off as more of a common trope used throughout these games, which then got slapped on to that silly kill organics to save them from synthetics bit. As for Synthesis and its potential, I guess that’s a matter of opinion, but in terms of its narrative, part of what makes it so unsatisfying is that all Synthesis really says to me is that learning to coexist is nonsense, and your differences will ultimately destroy you. You need to be altered to truly get along. I guess some people like that shit, but I just could never really gel with it. But we didn't get any meaningful hints. Playing Mass Effect I became a lore hound and nothing about the dark energy came across as anything more then the same tech babble that exists in the rest of the series. The only thing I got is that the Collectors might be utilizing a form of dark energy which fits with the whole super advanced Reaper connection utilizing technology that the rest of the Milky Way doesn't have access yet to and is only starting to uncover the basics of in a practical manner.
Just because it is a common trope doesn't discount the fact it had about 10,000x more actual plot development then dark energy did in ME2 alone.
As for Synthesis ending for all the advantages and cool tech the Geth have in terms of AI they are closer to an autistic 12 year olds due to their dependence on each other for thought. For example it takes Legion a total of 1,183 Geth to reach the level of EDI and actually fully realized AI. If you has 1,183 EDI working together they would be capable of advancements that would put all organic races to shame. Particularly when multiplied by the total number of Geth out there that has to range into the millions.
And each new generation of fully realized AI would be exponentially superior to the last generation as they would be a product of all of that advancement. And the issue is that organic life is created due to evolution and evolution is not that fast and could not keep up. The gap between organic and synthetic is like the gap between humanity and apes. Yes apes have been recorded using simple tools as weapons. But their primitive spears means nothing compared to our ability to fly and drop a nuclear weapon from thousands of feet in the air. Killing them and everything else in a mile radius instantly and slowly killing everything in a wider range from radioactive fallout.
That is what synthesis deals with bridging the gap that organic evolution simply can not keep up with.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 1, 2019 15:46:00 GMT
Honestly, I don't know if the dark energy ending would have been any better than the radioactive dumpster fire we got. But there were at least three events foreshadowing it in ME2 (that I can recall): Veetor detecting dark energy readings during the Collector attack on Freedom's Progress Gianna Parasini mentions a number of Noveria's clients expressing unusual interest in dark energy research Tali tells Shepard that Haestrom's sun is aging prematurely due to some kind of dark energy contamination.
The leaked dark energy script wasn't perfect, but it had potential. One of the top complaints people had about the ending we got was that inevitable organic vs synthetic conflict wasn't foreshadowed well. Cooperation with the Geth showed negotiation and coexistence is possible if perhaps difficult to achieve. It made the Catalyst look like an idiot or unable to question the assumptions the Leviathans put into its directive.
And that cooperation was only achieved for a few months and only because both Geth and Organic life had to team up because the Reapers represented no less then total extinction of their respective races.
When your bar for disproving the Catalyst is "well under an mutual extinction level event they are able to work together for a few month" is all you have then you do not have a very good argument.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 16:01:23 GMT
Honestly, I don't know if the dark energy ending would have been any better than the radioactive dumpster fire we got. But there were at least three events foreshadowing it in ME2 (that I can recall): Veetor detecting dark energy readings during the Collector attack on Freedom's Progress Gianna Parasini mentions a number of Noveria's clients expressing unusual interest in dark energy research Tali tells Shepard that Haestrom's sun is aging prematurely due to some kind of dark energy contamination.
The leaked dark energy script wasn't perfect, but it had potential. One of the top complaints people had about the ending we got was that inevitable organic vs synthetic conflict wasn't foreshadowed well. Cooperation with the Geth showed negotiation and coexistence is possible if perhaps difficult to achieve. It made the Catalyst look like an idiot or unable to question the assumptions the Leviathans put into its directive.
What "leaked dark energy script?" Please provide a link. All I've seen is this mention by Drew during an interview that basically says it was not even an idea that was "super fleshed out."
There's a big difference between writers bantering about various ideas and putting those ideas down into an actual script.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 1, 2019 16:15:10 GMT
The leaked dark energy script wasn't perfect, but it had potential. One of the top complaints people had about the ending we got was that inevitable organic vs synthetic conflict wasn't foreshadowed well. Cooperation with the Geth showed negotiation and coexistence is possible if perhaps difficult to achieve. It made the Catalyst look like an idiot or unable to question the assumptions the Leviathans put into its directive. The only reason why there was an opportunity to achieve peace was because of reaper interference, then letting the geth upload reaper code. What would have happened if Admiral 'I have an itchy trigger finger' Gerrell stands down instead of continuing to fire? Would the geth have stopped firing back? If so, that might have led to possible peace talks which would have brought a stronger argument when facing the thing on the Citadel.
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