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Post by alanc9 on Dec 4, 2019 17:45:05 GMT
I agree that they're not on the same level. A Destroy Shepard is worse than the Reapers. They don't have the required moral agency to be judged for their actions, since they were conditioned and controlled from their creation. But Shepard has free will, and can be judged for how he uses it. Edit: I'm not really signing on with Iakus' point, though. I don't think the situation in ME actually has a villain for Shepard to be worse than, in any meaningful sense. Nobody wanted to create the insane mess the galaxy found itself in. The Leviathans didn't know what they were doing, the Catalyst is just following its flawed premises to their logical conclusion, and the Reapers can't do otherwise than what they've been told to do. Which overall turns the trilogy into a cr*ppy, nihilistic excuse of a story, where nothing Shepard does really matters. That's a sense of "matters" that I can't pretend to comprehend. Leaving aside the fates of the quarians, geth, and krogan --- those don't "matter?" -- Refuse, Destroy, Control, and Synthesis are distinguishable, and I'm not aware of anyone who really doesn't have a preference between any of these states.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 17:46:43 GMT
You were told that two of those outcomes (control and synthesis) are what the Reapers do if you followed the story to any degree. They weren't going to go down without a fight. And yes, Bioware did state the Reapers could win this war. As for the destroy ending, the Catalyst does say "The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted. Even you are partly synthetic". So not only something purely synthetic like the Geth will be destroyed, but also anything partly synthetic as well. Do you know who is partly synthetic? Shepard and....the Reapers. The Reapers do get destroyed, but Shepard doesn't. This is not a glitch in the writing. This is a clue that the Catalyst wasn't being truthful with you. However, I suppose you need explicit, no room for doubt, smacked in the face clarification which makes it completely obvious he may be lying or that synthetics weren't destroyed.
The statement in the destroy ending does not say Shepard would be destroyed. His synthetic pieces are likely destroyed. In that the repairs were extensive, that might render his dead or severely disabled, which is what we see. Also, take into account, that the body does heal. Broken bones become less reliant on any surgical pins with time as the body grows new bone around the "implant" - sometimes to the detriment of the patient (arthritis).
(deleted first part of post... It was completely confused... got interrupted, sorry.)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 17:56:55 GMT
The post-EC ending slides for synthesis clearly show that the Reapers are not destroyed if synthesis is chosen. They acquire the same green glow as everyone else and just stop fighting. The geth and EDI, however, are no where to be seen. Synthesis doesn't destroy the Reapers. What happens is everyone becomes a Reaper-hybrid. Look at the pattern on their skin, and compare it to the pattern on the human Reaper from the Cerberus base. It's the same texture. They could have used any texture they wanted to, but they specifically chose that one to make a point.
Just because they don't show you, doesn't mean they are dead.
Here's a hint from someone who used to work for Bioware at the time.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 4, 2019 18:02:35 GMT
It renders them meaningless though. You work to unite the galaxy against the Reapers, and in the end you end up no better than the Reapers, either through genocide, starting your own cycle of destruction of synthetics. Or allowing the Reapers to rule the galaxy, holding all organics in a cage, gilded or not, or determining that organic life isn't worthy of existence, and forcibly "augmenting" them at a genetic level (and doing something similar to all synthetic life) In no outcome is the galaxy free of the Reapers or their legacy. Sigh... Control is not "allowing the Reapers to rule the galaxy." The Shepard AI only controls the Reapers themselves. The Catalyst already controlled the Reapers anyways. What is changed is the "focus" of that dictatorship. It becomes whatever focus Shepard saw fit... Paragon Shepard clearly intends to allow organics to thrive... to protect them and never forget them. He accomplishes that by changing the Reapers "programming" so that they assist in the rebuilding. Organics are not under Shepard's control... they can do what they want, advance their civilizations however they please... The Shepard AI cannot even make contact with the organics to influence them in any way. Sometime down the road when they've developed better weapons, the organics could absolutely decide to destroy the Reapers and The Shepard AI could not do anything to prevent them... just as the Catalyst could not actually "act." In Control, Shepard is DEAD. D-E-A-D What is left is an AI based on Shepard's memories. NOT the same thing at all! And a dictatorship is still a dictatorship. A gilded cage is still a cage. Even if space Cthulhu is determined to "protect" you, you're still not free. You can advance all you want, right up until Shepalyst decided "no"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 18:03:07 GMT
The post-EC ending slides for synthesis clearly show that the Reapers are not destroyed if synthesis is chosen. They acquire the same green glow as everyone else and just stop fighting. The geth and EDI, however, are no where to be seen. Synthesis doesn't destroy the Reapers. What happens is everyone becomes a Reaper-hybrid. Look at the pattern on their skin, and compare it to the pattern on the human Reaper from the Cerberus base. It's the same texture. They could have used any texture they wanted to, but they specifically chose that one to make a point.
Just because they don't show you, doesn't mean they are dead.
Here's a hint from someone who used to work for Bioware at the time. Sorry... that part of my post was totally confused. I got interrupted and lost track of my thought as I was typing.
You were talking about Shepard and the Destroy ending. Being only partly synthetic doesn't mean that Shepard would be destroyed. His implants would likely seek to function. Since his body likely did quite a bit of healing on its own over the course of the game, that lost of those implants may not have been lethal... and, of course, it is verified that his brain is organic.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 18:04:38 GMT
Sigh... Control is not "allowing the Reapers to rule the galaxy." The Shepard AI only controls the Reapers themselves. The Catalyst already controlled the Reapers anyways. What is changed is the "focus" of that dictatorship. It becomes whatever focus Shepard saw fit... Paragon Shepard clearly intends to allow organics to thrive... to protect them and never forget them. He accomplishes that by changing the Reapers "programming" so that they assist in the rebuilding. Organics are not under Shepard's control... they can do what they want, advance their civilizations however they please... The Shepard AI cannot even make contact with the organics to influence them in any way. Sometime down the road when they've developed better weapons, the organics could absolutely decide to destroy the Reapers and The Shepard AI could not do anything to prevent them... just as the Catalyst could not actually "act." In Control, Shepard is DEAD. D-E-A-D What is left is an AI based on Shepard's memories. NOT the same thing at all! And a dictatorship is still a dictatorship. A gilded cage is still a cage. Even if space Cthulhu is determined to "protect" you, you're still not free. You can advance all you want, right up until Shepalyst decided "no" Shepard is dead... but the Shepard AI does as Shepard would see fit. It's his morality programmed into that AI, not the Catalyst's. Shepard has been "protecting" the organics all along by fighting the Reaper War. It's not a guilded cage at all. He protects them from only the Reapers because he controls the Reapers... Therefore, the Reapers will no long harm them. He's not going to be able to protect them from any organic upon organic type of war. If Leviathan decides to make a run to turn every species into their vassals, The Shepard AI would not be able to prevent them from trying to do so. He might be able to respond by ordering the Reapers to go to war against Leviathan, but Shepard could also be of the morality to just not take sides in any new wars that crop up in the future.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 4, 2019 18:05:55 GMT
Which overall turns the trilogy into a cr*ppy, nihilistic excuse of a story, where nothing Shepard does really matters. That's a sense of "matters" that I can't pretend to comprehend. Leaving aside the fates of the quarians, geth, and krogan --- those don't "matter?" -- Refuse, Destroy, Control, and Synthesis are distinguishable, and I'm not aware of anyone who really doesn't have a preference between any of these states. And cow, pig, horse, and dog feces are distinguishable from each other too. I supposed if I was pressed enough, I could decide on a "preference" for those too. Doesn't mean I want anything to do with any of them. And yeah, I'm not really interested in the fates of any of those races where organics have to become "Reaper-lite" purging synthetics on a regular basis, have to live under the "benevolent" dictatorship of the Shepalyst, or get forcibly "upgraded" into a form of life the Reapers are willing to tolerate to exist.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 4, 2019 18:08:21 GMT
In Control, Shepard is DEAD. D-E-A-D What is left is an AI based on Shepard's memories. NOT the same thing at all! And a dictatorship is still a dictatorship. A gilded cage is still a cage. Even if space Cthulhu is determined to "protect" you, you're still not free. You can advance all you want, right up until Shepalyst decided "no" Shepard is dead... but the Shepard AI does as Shepard would see fit. It's his morality programmed into that AI, not the Catalyst's. No, it's how the AI interprets Shepard's morality. The entire trilogy has shown us that organic and synthetic minds operate very differently, and perceive the world around them differently. It was actually one of the more interesting aspects of the trilogy. Before the geth got turned into a race of Pinocchios, at least.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 18:16:49 GMT
Shepard is dead... but the Shepard AI does as Shepard would see fit. It's his morality programmed into that AI, not the Catalyst's. No, it's how the AI interprets Shepard's morality. The entire trilogy has shown us that organic and synthetic minds operate very differently, and perceive the world around them differently. It was actually one of the more interesting aspects of the trilogy. Before the geth got turned into a race of Pinocchios, at least. There is nothing in the ending slides that suggests that The Shepard AI does anything ever that goes against Shepard's morality or that it does anything at all that causes the Reapers to harm the MW species. This extension you keep insisting upon is all in your own head. You are told by the game that Shepard AI controls only the Reapers. You are shown by the game the result of that in the EC. End of story.
Regardless of what you found interesting at the outset... the conclusion of the game was ultimately that AI and organics don't actually think all that differently. You don't like where the game went... but that doesn't change the fact that the game do go that way.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 4, 2019 18:25:22 GMT
No, it's how the AI interprets Shepard's morality. The entire trilogy has shown us that organic and synthetic minds operate very differently, and perceive the world around them differently. It was actually one of the more interesting aspects of the trilogy. Before the geth got turned into a race of Pinocchios, at least. There is nothing in the ending slides that suggests that The Shepard AI does anything ever that goes against Shepard's morality or that it does anything at all that causes the Reapers to harm the MW species. This extension you keep insisting upon is all in your own head. You are told by the game that Shepard AI controls only the Reapers. You are shown by the game the result of that in the EC. End of story. I see Reapers ruling the galaxy. Benevolent or not. Distant or not. That is f*cked up. "I'd rather die free than live a slave" Commander Shepard, ME1
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 4, 2019 18:26:03 GMT
What's strange is this is the same guy who doesn't want choices to transfer over, therefore making the choices not really matter so it's strange he's complaining about that now. False. Choices should matter, but they should matter in the game they are made in. Not held over to some future game where it just becomes baggage for the writers who have to account for every character who might or might not be dead, romanced, befriended, betrayed, etc. This I agree with. Having a series was fun, but I’d love to have one big epic game where I can basically make decisions without anything held back for “future proofing” or something.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 4, 2019 18:28:40 GMT
There is nothing in the ending slides that suggests that The Shepard AI does anything ever that goes against Shepard's morality or that it does anything at all that causes the Reapers to harm the MW species. This extension you keep insisting upon is all in your own head. You are told by the game that Shepard AI controls only the Reapers. You are shown by the game the result of that in the EC. End of story. I see Reapers ruling the galaxy. Benevolent or not. Distant or not. That is f*cked up. "I'd rather die free than live a slave" Commander Shepard, ME1 You can be certain that few, if any, societies would accept being looked after by reapers. Dollars to Ryncol the krogan would be the first to fling WMD’s at them and would sooner die than ever just deal with their continued presence. Any “benevolent” reaper horde would have no choice but to simply leave the galaxy entirely so races don’t kill themselves flinging their weapons at reapers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 18:35:13 GMT
I see Reapers ruling the galaxy. Benevolent or not. Distant or not. That is f*cked up. "I'd rather die free than live a slave" Commander Shepard, ME1 You can be certain that few, if any, societies would accept being looked after by reapers. Dollars to Ryncol the krogan would be the first to fling WMD’s at them and would sooner die than ever just deal with their continued presence. Any “benevolent” reaper horde would have no choice but to simply leave the galaxy entirely so races don’t kill themselves flinging their weapons at reapers. ... and that could happen with the Shepard AI in control. The war stops because The Shepard AI tells the Reapers to stop fighting and the organics drive them from the galaxy while The Shepard AI stops them from fighting back. The Shepard AI could absolutely control the Reapers to the point where, conventionally, the MW species could win the war and drive them into dark space. He could also just order them to go to dark space without a fight at all.
If the MW species choose to annihilate the Reapers though, they will be committing a war crime... same as any race involved in a war with another is that tries to utterly annihilate every member of their enemy's race... but if genocide is what organics really want to do, the Shepard AI could not stop them from trying. If the Reapers are attacked by organics, he could order them to defend themselves... or not... as he sees fit.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 4, 2019 18:40:48 GMT
I wonder what would the former human called Shepard now called the thing part 2, if the blue was chosen, would do if Hackett decides to build another crucible believing the first one was faulty?
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 4, 2019 18:46:15 GMT
You can be certain that few, if any, societies would accept being looked after by reapers. Dollars to Ryncol the krogan would be the first to fling WMD’s at them and would sooner die than ever just deal with their continued presence. Any “benevolent” reaper horde would have no choice but to simply leave the galaxy entirely so races don’t kill themselves flinging their weapons at reapers. ... and that could happen with the Shepard AI in control. The war stops because The Shepard AI tells the Reapers to stop fighting and the organics drive them from the galaxy while The Shepard AI stops them from fighting back. The Shepard AI could absolutely control the Reapers to the point where, conventionally, the MW species could win the war and drive them into dark space. He could also just order them to go to dark space without a fight at all.
If the MW species choose to annihilate the Reapers though, they will be committing a war crime... same as any race involved in a war with another is that tries to utterly annihilate every member of their enemy's race... but if genocide is what organics really want to do, the Shepard AI could not stop them from trying. If the Reapers are attacked by organics, he could order them to defend themselves... or not... as he sees fit. The legal term probably doesn't matter if there's no body of government with either the will or the capacity to do anything about it. Besides, it wouldn't be the first time the major species of the Milky Way presided over the annihilation of another race. Only reason the rachni existed at all after the Rachni Wars was because they missed a spot. Of course, if they see reapers reassembling the Citadel and relays, they'd probably get the point and back off. It would just be a matter of time later that someone like, say, the salarians decide to devote their time to studying the reapers. If anything, the real issue are all the horrifying monsters left behind. Like, what happens to all these banshees, husks, brutes, marauders, etc.? I would kill them all with fire just because I don't like the cut of their jib, or give them all jobs at Amazon.com's warehouse where they can avoid contact with others for the rest of their miserable lives.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 18:56:49 GMT
... and that could happen with the Shepard AI in control. The war stops because The Shepard AI tells the Reapers to stop fighting and the organics drive them from the galaxy while The Shepard AI stops them from fighting back. The Shepard AI could absolutely control the Reapers to the point where, conventionally, the MW species could win the war and drive them into dark space. He could also just order them to go to dark space without a fight at all.
If the MW species choose to annihilate the Reapers though, they will be committing a war crime... same as any race involved in a war with another is that tries to utterly annihilate every member of their enemy's race... but if genocide is what organics really want to do, the Shepard AI could not stop them from trying. If the Reapers are attacked by organics, he could order them to defend themselves... or not... as he sees fit. The legal term probably doesn't matter if there's no body of government with either the will or the capacity to do anything about it. Besides, it wouldn't be the first time the major species of the Milky Way presided over the annihilation of another race. Only reason the rachni existed at all after the Rachni Wars was because they missed a spot. Of course, if they see reapers reassembling the Citadel and relays, they'd probably get the point and back off. It would just be a matter of time later that someone like, say, the salarians decide to devote their time to studying the reapers. If anything, the real issue are all the horrifying monsters left behind. Like, what happens to all these banshees, husks, brutes, marauders, etc.? I would kill them all with fire just because I don't like the cut of their jib, or give them all jobs at Amazon.com's warehouse where they can avoid contact with others for the rest of their miserable lives. That would be completely up to organics. The Shepard AI would not have the power to offer any of them a job at MW.Amazon.xxx.
The thing is... a dictator only has power over what he/she is dictator of. There are numerous nations that have dictators currently. None of them make people in the US "slaves" of that dictatorship. US citizens are as free as their own government decides to let them be free.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 18:57:16 GMT
I see Reapers ruling the galaxy. Benevolent or not. Distant or not. That is f*cked up.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 4, 2019 19:49:20 GMT
If anything, the real issue are all the horrifying monsters left behind. Like, what happens to all these banshees, husks, brutes, marauders, etc.? I would kill them all with fire just because I don't like the cut of their jib, or give them all jobs at Amazon.com's warehouse where they can avoid contact with others for the rest of their miserable lives. Use them for target practice, testing new weapons on them, and crash test dummies.
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Post by Phantom on Dec 4, 2019 19:57:33 GMT
If anything, the real issue are all the horrifying monsters left behind. Like, what happens to all these banshees, husks, brutes, marauders, etc.? I would kill them all with fire just because I don't like the cut of their jib, or give them all jobs at Amazon.com's warehouse where they can avoid contact with others for the rest of their miserable lives. Use them for target practice, testing new weapons on them, and crash test dummies. I know of a Cerberus Weapons Testing Lab that would have use for those husks and new weapons to be used on them
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 4, 2019 20:05:21 GMT
If anything, the real issue are all the horrifying monsters left behind. Like, what happens to all these banshees, husks, brutes, marauders, etc.? I would kill them all with fire just because I don't like the cut of their jib, or give them all jobs at Amazon.com's warehouse where they can avoid contact with others for the rest of their miserable lives. Use them for target practice, testing new weapons on them, and crash test dummies. It'd be like Shawn of the Dead with the zombies pushing shopping carts back into the corrals, and you'd see Asari on talk shows going on about how they love their banshee wives.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 4, 2019 20:10:00 GMT
... and that could happen with the Shepard AI in control. The war stops because The Shepard AI tells the Reapers to stop fighting and the organics drive them from the galaxy while The Shepard AI stops them from fighting back. The Shepard AI could absolutely control the Reapers to the point where, conventionally, the MW species could win the war and drive them into dark space. He could also just order them to go to dark space without a fight at all.
If the MW species choose to annihilate the Reapers though, they will be committing a war crime... same as any race involved in a war with another is that tries to utterly annihilate every member of their enemy's race... but if genocide is what organics really want to do, the Shepard AI could not stop them from trying. If the Reapers are attacked by organics, he could order them to defend themselves... or not... as he sees fit. The legal term probably doesn't matter if there's no body of government with either the will or the capacity to do anything about it. Besides, it wouldn't be the first time the major species of the Milky Way presided over the annihilation of another race. Only reason the rachni existed at all after the Rachni Wars was because they missed a spot. Of course, if they see reapers reassembling the Citadel and relays, they'd probably get the point and back off. It would just be a matter of time later that someone like, say, the salarians decide to devote their time to studying the reapers. If anything, the real issue are all the horrifying monsters left behind. Like, what happens to all these banshees, husks, brutes, marauders, etc.? I would kill them all with fire just because I don't like the cut of their jib, or give them all jobs at Amazon.com's warehouse where they can avoid contact with others for the rest of their miserable lives. Now there's as sight tha twould be funny to see.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 4, 2019 20:23:49 GMT
Use them for target practice, testing new weapons on them, and crash test dummies. I know of a Cerberus Weapons Testing Lab that would have use for those husks and new weapons to be used on them This weapon testing lab, does it have any nukes? Asking for an AI defence grid.....
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Post by Phantom on Dec 4, 2019 20:26:45 GMT
I know of a Cerberus Weapons Testing Lab that would have use for those husks and new weapons to be used on them This weapon testing lab, does it have any nukes? Asking for an AI defence grid..... This is Cerberus, Of course we have Nukes and other Weapons of Mass Destruction....Also we do develop armors that are highly resistant to our own weapons as well.
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Sept 28, 2024 9:29:49 GMT
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Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
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Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 4, 2019 20:29:23 GMT
This weapon testing lab, does it have any nukes? Asking for an AI defence grid..... This is Cerberus, Of course we have Nukes and other Weapons of Mass Destruction....Also we do develop armors that are highly resistant to our own weapons as well. Mind if we borrow some nukes? Because we have a PERFECT target in mind.... (looks at the asari homeworld).
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Sept 28, 2024 3:43:31 GMT
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Phantom
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August 2016
deathscepter
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Phantom on Dec 4, 2019 20:32:25 GMT
This is Cerberus, Of course we have Nukes and other Weapons of Mass Destruction....Also we do develop armors that are highly resistant to our own weapons as well. Mind if we borrow some nukes? Because we have a PERFECT target in mind.... (looks at the asari homeworld). Yes you can. Also do you have an Imperial Inquistor on board on your vessel? let him know that Asari religion, Siari Religion, is the most heretical of a religion....
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