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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 23, 2020 14:52:13 GMT
I think my Aidan/Anders romanced run is going to become my canon version going forward. Originally that was my original Seren/Fenris romance but it would seem their canon Fenris is so far removed from how I saw their relationship, I'd rather not use it, particularly after the comic series, which had Fenris so cynical about friendship (let alone love) as a result of his experiences in Kirkwall. I've argued about this on other threads more than once. I can understand Fenris going off to free slaves whilst Hawke deals with the request from Varric but not Hawke sending him away because she is afraid he would "die defending her". Well they had already been through that situation with Meredith and both survived. Sending him away for that reason just didn't sit right with how I saw their relationship. Then to have his comments about his former relations in Blue Wraith was just too much. This is a Fenris who just doesn't fit with how their relationship was at the end of DAI.
By contrast, I can understand Fenris feeling like that about Aidan. They were best of friends and he saw Aidan as a good mage but whilst he stood by him in saving the mages, I could understand Fenris being less than understanding about Aidan's decision to spare Anders, plus all that occurred with the blood mages we fought and finally Orsino. As a result, if Fenris ended up being bitter about how things developed and feeling he was better off alone, then that was understandable. So rather than have to ignore the direction in which they have taken Fenris, it seems better to go with a scenario that fits.
Having played the Anders romance all the way through now, I feel it is my favourite anyway. There is so much on which we agree and to be honest if Aidan doesn't agree with the method of starting the revolution, he does agree with its necessity. Plus he can't honestly say that there hadn't been times when he wanted to blow the Chantry, and the Gallows, sky high, through sheer anger and frustration at everything they are responsible for. So I have recorded it in the Keep as him approving of his actions because really having kept the relationship going when it was clear he was up to something sinister, spared his life and then stayed loyal to their romance after that, it is hard to justify claiming that he didn't approve. It would effectively be a "love is blind" situation and that wouldn't do justice to his feelings for Anders.
He did try and get Elthina to do something for the mages and since Anders suggested it was giving her a final chance to avert whatever he was planning, he likes to believe that had he succeeded, perhaps Anders wouldn't have gone through with it. I know I have previously debated with people about who exactly was in the Chantry at the time. Whilst Sebastian claims they look after orphans, there was no evidence of children whilst we were there and even if they were caring for them, I doubt it was in the Chantry building itself. Aidan is convinced that if there had been children there, Anders would not have blown it up. Aidan has been consistently merciful during his time in Kirkwall, largely because he does believe in giving people the chance to redeem themselves but most of them have been a lot less deserving of the chance than Anders. As I say above, Aidan feels if Anders does need to atone for what he did, then he does too. However, I think during their seven years or so in Kirkwall, on the whole they both saved more lives through their actions than they took when it was not simply self defence.
I am still suspicious of the explosion being as great as it was. At the time of DA2 we knew nothing of the Venatori or red lyrium use by them but I still feel there was a connection between the emergence of the Resolutionists and the expansion of the Venatori into the south. I don't believe even the supplies of lyrium for use by the Templars would have created such a large explosion and, besides, surely that would be over in the Gallows? Meredith had another cache in Darktown that we destroyed. The stuff the Templars use is also the diluted form not the pure stuff. So I'm deeply suspicious that it was simply the ingredients we got for Anders that resulted in that amount of destruction.
Anyway, there you have it. Through playing through DAA and then DA2, I have fallen in love with Anders again and he has been restored as my favourite mage companion and romance.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 23, 2020 18:43:17 GMT
Aidan is convinced that if there had been children there, Anders would not have blown it up. Anders absolutely would have still pulled the trigger if there were children in there. After all part of his plan was the extermination of the Kirkwall Circle, including all the kids, to serve as martyrs to the cause and cause a war. As for Fenris in the comics, remember that’s a non-romanced neutral friendship Fenris since they have to use defaults for expanded universe content. A Fenris who was romances would feel differently.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 23, 2020 20:19:37 GMT
After all part of his plan was the extermination of the Kirkwall Circle, including all the kids, to serve as martyrs to the cause and cause a war.
I disagree. Blowing up the Chantry was intended to kick start the revolution but he wanted to mages to fight back, not just roll over and die. To be honest, whilst Bethany mentions children back in circa 9:34, she includes Ella among them and she was a teenager. Remember that Meredith had also already by-passed Elthina and applied to the Divine for the Right of Annulment, which could well lie behind Anders comment that they were "dead already". Like I say above, I think he chose the wrong target but there was going to be bloodshed eventually either way.
Strangely enough, the only person mentioned as a victim of his bomb was Elthina. May be Meredith and Sebastian felt that the Templars and clerics that were caught up in it were not important but if an entire orphanage had bitten the dust, would that not merit a mention? Perhaps no one was that bothered about the fate of innocent children.
Now Aidan may have been incorrect in his assumption that Anders would not have set off the bomb if children were going to be involved but it is equally true that you could be wrong in saying that he wouldn't care less.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 23, 2020 21:16:03 GMT
I've also been to check and there is an example of where both Anders and Justice object to "selling out an innocent" for personal gain and that is Feynriel. Now, like Ella, he is more a teenager than an actual child but nevertheless A/J still see him as a innocent. Whilst you could argue that bombing the Chantry was not for personal gain, it is to advance their own personal crusade and thus I would say it still falls under that definition that they both object to. Whilst Night Terrors is in Act 2, the fact that both parties have strong objections to "selling out an innocent" would suggest that even in Act 3 this objection would still apply and thus Anders would not have set off the bomb if innocent children (or teenagers) were going to get caught up in it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 23, 2020 23:48:21 GMT
After all part of his plan was the extermination of the Kirkwall Circle, including all the kids, to serve as martyrs to the cause and cause a war.
I disagree. Blowing up the Chantry was intended to kick start the revolution but he wanted to mages to fight back, not just roll over and die. To be honest, whilst Bethany mentions children back in circa 9:34, she includes Ella among them and she was a teenager. Remember that Meredith had also already by-passed Elthina and applied to the Divine for the Right of Annulment, which could well lie behind Anders comment that they were "dead already". Like I say above, I think he chose the wrong target but there was going to be bloodshed eventually either way.
Strangely enough, the only person mentioned as a victim of his bomb was Elthina. May be Meredith and Sebastian felt that the Templars and clerics that were caught up in it were not important but if an entire orphanage had bitten the dust, would that not merit a mention? Perhaps no one was that bothered about the fate of innocent children.
Now Aidan may have been incorrect in his assumption that Anders would not have set off the bomb if children were going to be involved but it is equally true that you could be wrong in saying that he wouldn't care less.
The revolution wouldn't kick off if the Circle wasn't eradicated. If Anders blew up the Chantry and was the only one punished, that would be the end of it. But he knew of Meredith's paranoia and thus if he destroyed the Chantry she would no longer have Elthina in her way opposing her and that she would blame all mages like she had been recently. So when she targeted the Circle, whom were innocent of his crime, that would spark the revolution. Whether the Kiekwall Circle survived or not was of no consequence to him, since they would serve his crusade as either soldiers or martyrs for the cause. This was part of the genius of Anders's plan, because no matter what happened he would succeed. As for him being opposed to selling out innocents, it's obvious his mind shifted between Acts 2 and 3. After all, he is the one who approves of selling Fenris back into slavery. And he also thought Meredith was not pure evil in Act 2 like he does in 3. Though it may go back further, since him opposing selling out Feynriel may simply be because Feynriel is a mage. It's hardly the only time he draws a line between mages and nonmages, having a different opinion of each group. He sure doesn't seem to care about all the innocent people killed in the blast, by the debris from the blast, and all those caught up in the crossfire but only cares about the mages in that fiasco.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 24, 2020 0:54:25 GMT
I disagree. Blowing up the Chantry was intended to kick start the revolution but he wanted to mages to fight back, not just roll over and die. To be honest, whilst Bethany mentions children back in circa 9:34, she includes Ella among them and she was a teenager. Remember that Meredith had also already by-passed Elthina and applied to the Divine for the Right of Annulment, which could well lie behind Anders comment that they were "dead already". Like I say above, I think he chose the wrong target but there was going to be bloodshed eventually either way.
Strangely enough, the only person mentioned as a victim of his bomb was Elthina. May be Meredith and Sebastian felt that the Templars and clerics that were caught up in it were not important but if an entire orphanage had bitten the dust, would that not merit a mention? Perhaps no one was that bothered about the fate of innocent children.
Now Aidan may have been incorrect in his assumption that Anders would not have set off the bomb if children were going to be involved but it is equally true that you could be wrong in saying that he wouldn't care less.
The revolution wouldn't kick off if the Circle wasn't eradicated. If Anders blew up the Chantry and was the only one punished, that would be the end of it. But he knew of Meredith's paranoia and thus if he destroyed the Chantry she would no longer have Elthina in her way opposing her and that she would blame all mages like she had been recently. So when she targeted the Circle, whom were innocent of his crime, that would spark the revolution. Whether the Kiekwall Circle survived or not was of no consequence to him, since they would serve his crusade as either soldiers or martyrs for the cause. This was part of the genius of Anders's plan, because no matter what happened he would succeed. As for him being opposed to selling out innocents, it's obvious his mind shifted between Acts 2 and 3. After all, he is the one who approves of selling Fenris back into slavery. And he also thought Meredith was not pure evil in Act 2 like he does in 3. Though it may go back further, since him opposing selling out Feynriel may simply be because Feynriel is a mage. It's hardly the only time he draws a line between mages and nonmages, having a different opinion of each group. He sure doesn't seem to care about all the innocent people killed in the blast, by the debris from the blast, and all those caught up in the crossfire but only cares about the mages in that fiasco. His mind didn't shift, the circumstances went worse. Meredith destroyed the Mage Underground and sent the request for the "Right" of the Annulment to Val Royeaux. I don't even think, his mind changed about Meredith: he didn't find her such a perverted lizard – and I'm sure he didn't think, even in Act3, that Alrik and Meredith are the same weight. Also: he absolutely didn't support any slavery, and his mind didn't change about this. And not he was who gave back Fenris to Danarius, but Hawke can: and Anders is able to fight for him. They're all able to leave the group, if they don't agree about something. But he stays, and fights. By the way: the others may disapprove: but there are any of them who leaves the group? No. Someone mentions him? No. Nobody cares for Fenris in fact. While Hawke's companions are ABLE to leave the group, when they disagree... It's sure, he fels bad about the victims. But he still did, because considered it necessary. Your very nice Divine REVARDED Celene for burning the Alienage... In fact, she required. The Chantry was able to kill many innocents, and to Tranquilize them – what is even worse. Called it "mercy" what is terribly hypocrite. In this world, Anders' act is grey. And Anders isn't the bad guy.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 24, 2020 8:34:13 GMT
The revolution wouldn't kick off if the Circle wasn't eradicated. If Anders blew up the Chantry and was the only one punished, that would be the end of it. There are two separate issues here. Because invariably I have been forced to kill Karras in previous runs, I was not aware that Meredith had applied to the Divine for the Right of Annulment, so I always thought what she did was illegal. However, I now have a better picture of what was going on behind the scenes. It seems to me it was like this: Opening scene: Orsino is encouraging the ordinary people to challenge Meredith's control of the city and let them appoint a new Viscount. Meredith opposes him, Hawke makes their view known and then Elthina intervenes, calming the situation, though I am sure that telling Meredith to obey "like a good girl" did not go down well. Both Orsion and Meredith think something is going on within the Circle, which turns out to be true, but it is in fact Templars and Mages working together against Meredith's control, led by Thrask. It is clear that outside elements have moved into the city to destabilise it and cause trouble. I cannot believe that all those blood mages operating on the streets at night were local apostates. Then Leliana arrives and it turns out that this new group the Resolutionists are fermenting trouble. Fenris claims they are backed by Tevinter. Leliana says this is not proven but nevertheless the Divine is concerned about how the situation is deteriorating in Kirkwall. She tells Elthina to get out while she can. Elthina refuses to leave and still seems to believe it is possible to contain the situation. It is not clear exactly when Meredith sent to the Divine for the Annulment. It may have been before Leliana's visit but it seems more likely the request may well have been sent back with her. Clearly Meredith has lost faith in Elthina's leadership as is confirmed by a conversation between Aveline and Sebastian, when he says that Meredith has stopped listening to Elthina's advice. That is telling because really no matter what Elthina said from then on, Meredith would plot her own path. The Templar/mage plot is exposed, so Meredith is now aware she is losing the support of her own people. Naturally she suspects blood magic mind control. So she orders a thorough search of the mage quarters for evidence of this, which Orsino objects to and is why he is on his way to see Elthina. Now it is easy to assume that Meredith only declares the Annulment because of the bomb but it is entirely possible she would have used anything she found in the search to justify this because she had already received permission from the Divine. Essentially even if Anders had sat on his hands, Meredith would have called for the Annulment because there is no doubt she would have found evidence somewhere in the tower, even if someone had to plant it for her to find. With the mages routinely locked in their cells, they would have no opportunity to fight back but could be eradicated one by one. Of course Anders' action meant she no longer had to find any evidence. The assault on the Chantry would be enough justification to declare the Annulment in her eyes and possibly the Divine's as well, even though it was a monstrous injustice to do so, but the mages at least get the chance to unite together and fight back. Still I think that could explain the "we were already doomed" and "a quick death now or a slow death later". It could be those words refer to the state of mages in the Circles generally, after all they had been steadily eradicating any dissenting mages in the Circle over the previous few years by making them tranquil, which we know in the eyes of both Karl and Pharamond is considered a state worse than death, as both would rather be dead than return to that state. It is very difficult to achieve reform from within the Circle if that punishment for challenging the authority of the Chantry and Templars is always there to be held over you. Anders certainly wanted to remove the element of compromise between parties because that is presumably how the Circles reached the state they were in during the Dragon Age. It wasn't how they started out as both Chantry and secular histories confirmed but no doubt every time something bad happened involving magic, some Divine would preach a sermon and the mages would have to toe the line or risk being made tranquil. It is then made clear they should be grateful for the mercy in being allowed to continue to operate at all rather than simply wiped out. (Sebastian uses such an argument about why humanity should still honour the Maker so I'm sure the Chantry uses the same about mages). Clearly Justinia was thinking along the lines of just negating a mage's ability to do magic by some means other than the rite of tranquillity but did she really wish to go any further than that? As I say, Anders was probably right that the mages had been compromising for the last 800 years without getting much in return. So something drastic needed to be done to get change, which is why I say that whilst I think his bomb was the wrong way to achieve this (and I do think the Resolutionists were behind the idea because it seems too much of a coincidence otherwise that he is using their methods), one way or another the only way the mages were going to achieve change would be to rise up against their oppressors and it is hard to see how that could end in anything other than bloodshed.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 24, 2020 9:31:04 GMT
gervaise21 Meredith applies to the Divine for the Right before Leliana arrived, as the conversation with Karras can happen before the DLC mission with her. Not sure where you are getting Justinia approving it though. It’s more as we said the death of everyone above her by a mage allowed Meredith to declare the Right of Annulment. As for Anders, I can’t really reply to the parts of your post about him without getting very negative towards him thus not fitting a fan thread (same reason I haven’t replied to Catilina post) so all I’ll say is the fact you support him means you approve and support his actions of mass murder. You can’t have one without the other. Ultimately it is also just a waste since it’s not what sparks the war.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 24, 2020 14:04:14 GMT
Not sure where you are getting Justinia approving it though. It’s more as we said the death of everyone above her by a mage allowed Meredith to declare the Right of Annulment. I explained why I think it is likely she did get approval. Otherwise her action was simply illegal and she should have applied to the nearest Grand Cleric or Val Royeaux before declaring the Annulment. I'd always assumed this before because there was no evidence in my games that she had attempted to get approval for her action. However, I now think that she had got it, bearing in mind the Divine was concerned about the state of Kirkwall. If anything it was more likely she would give Meredith one last chance to deal with the situation before embarking on her Exalted March, at which point there would be nothing Elthina could say to stop it. The condition attached to the approval was likely that there had to be tangible evidence of wrong doing. Hence the proposed search of the Gallows. all I’ll say is the fact you support him means you approve and support his actions of mass murder Actually I said that this was the case with my character, Aidan. He agrees with the reason for the action, whilst not with the means used, but knows people are going to assume that he approved of the means through not executing Anders. I know that Anders did intend the death of the Grand Cleric and anyone who happened to be with her at the time but I was simply challenging the notion that he intended sacrificing the Circle mages without any thought for them. On the contrary he realised it was going to happen eventually, using some other excuse if the bomb had not happened and they were deluding themselves if they thought otherwise. The fact is he did effectively turn himself in to Meredith, admitted to the crime and was willing to accept her judgement on him. It was Meredith who ignored the guilty party and preferred instead to target those who were innocent of the crime. That is also mass murder but by those who are meant to be policing the system. Anders may have gambled with the lives of the Circle mages to make a political point but Meredith and the Templars were the perpetrators of that particular crime. It highlighted just what an unjust system the Chantry operate against mages when all can be potentially murdered by the Templars for the crimes of a few. It had happened before and it would happen again so long as the current system was in operation. Like I say, Aidan knows in his heart that he is not the Champion of Kirkwall because it was Anders who killed the Arishok and saved the city from the Qun. Anders ran his clinic for six years, saving lives and healing those too poor to afford anyone else (and even those that could). His campaign for many years had been by non-violent means, apart from when defending himself from people like Aldric. Together, they had tracked down rogue mages, kept the streets clear of thugs and even saved the lives of Templars. They had been manipulated by a corrupt cleric of the Chantry who wanted to use them for political ends but managed to thwart her. She was subsequently promoted in the Chantry. Petrice had been responsible for instigating the kidnapping of a peaceful Qunari delegation on behalf of the Arishok, then killing the Viscount's son, which increased the likelihood of hostilities. Elthina may not have approved but she didn't go out of her way to denounce Petrice publically for her action, regardless of whether she was alive or not. Then Aveline ignored the rumours about one of her own guards engaging in rape, leading to the Arishok finally deciding to take action. How many people died because of that? So after being threatened by Meredith for not wanting to do her job for her before, Aidan decided that he was not going to do so this time. As she had chosen instead to murder innocent mages, he would spare Anders so he could help save them. That one act against the Chantry did not define Anders in his eyes but everything else he had done over the years, so he deserved a chance at redemption. As you say, ultimately what happened in Kirkwall didn't start the war, so other people were responsible for that.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 24, 2020 15:11:32 GMT
Changing the subject slightly. I am curious what people make of the difference between Anders on the friend and rival paths. This is more than just his attitude towards Hawke and by Act 3 the contrast is really quite extreme. Effectively I would say that on the rival path he is having the equivalent of a mental breakdown. He admits to gaps in his memory when you have to assume that Justice has taken over. So it is possible to argue that he isn't even responsible for his actions but an unwilling passenger. By contrast, on the friendship path he claims the merger is complete, they are one mind and one is not an unwilling passenger of the other.
Now David Gaider has explained that the rival path for any of the characters is not intended as something negative and in an interview puts forward the example of Merrill, where you can say that it is actually better for her to realise the folly of her actions through the constant opposition of Hawke and in a way you are a better friend as a result. Unfortunately, he doesn't elaborate where Anders is concerned but it seems to me that the contrast between the two states of Anders' mind on the opposing paths is so great that it is hard to view him as the same person. I'm struggling to see how Hawke's disapproval, which may not necessarily be linked to their view of his relationship with Justice, has resulted in such an outcome, although I suppose it could be argued, particularly with a rival romance, that the strain of conflicting ideologies is what sends him over the edge. Nevertheless, if Justice so disapproves of the relationship and is so much in control, why doesn't Anders just end it? He is willing to do this in Act 2 if you deal with Tupor, so why not in Act 3? Admittedly, if Hawke supports the Templars but spares him, Anders hints that he will kill himself when it is over but why not straight away or alternatively attack Hawke, so forcing them to kill him? What Hawke is forcing on him isn't justice for his actions, so why does Justice not take over?
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 24, 2020 18:58:13 GMT
Okay, may be my musings have been getting a bit heavy, so on a lighter note, what do you think Anders' birth name was? It is rather disappointing in a way that he never reveals it, not even at the end just before they go into battle together. Another rather cool way of revealing it would have been for him to hand over his pillow to Varric and his name is what his mother had embroidered on it, although if that was the case then I suppose the others in the Circle would have been able to see it, rather than just calling by his nickname of Anders. Does Hawke even know that wasn't really his name?
Now his father was from the Anderfels but had come to Ferelden at a young age, so I assume his mother was a native Ferelden. If his father gave him his own (may be why Anders no longer wanted it) or a family name from the Anderfels, then according to the Core Rule Book it would have been something along these lines: Axel; Detlef; Ewald; Friedal; Gerlach; Janko; Konrad; Otwin; Raimund; Velker. I must admit none of them really grab me and if he did have one of these it is easier to understand why he preferred to go by the name of Anders. Alternatively, may be he was given a Ferelden name. These are more English sounding: Adam; Edward; Garrick; Landon; Marden; Robert; Richard. Or possibly his mother might have been Chasind so: Aleyn; Cenayn; Drystan; Gawne; Helayn; Jasce; Neel; Ronayn; Tygall; Walgan.
Do you suppose Anders' looks favour his Ander heritage? He wasn't meant to have spoken to anyone on entering the Circle, so how did the other apprentices make the connection with the Anderfels? It hardly seems something the Templars would have bothered finding out. In Masked Empire, Leliana is said to look Ferelden even though she speaks with an Orlesian accent but it is never explained what it is about her features that is typically Ferelden but it is not her hair. Still if Celene can notice that about Leliana, even though the number of Ferelden people she has personally met must be quite limited, then presumably the same may be true of other nationalities.
Also does anyone know if his age was ever mentioned?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 24, 2020 19:02:38 GMT
Yes. Good question. And very hard.
1. Heplers version: Anders in rivalry become a "better person" recognizes his "delusions", and learned to restrain Vengeance. Obvious redemption arc... (My questions/opinion about it: a) "better person", who support a genocide/mass murdering – against innocents, against the innocent people, whom for he fought...? How? I don't see that "better person" maybe a broken one, who just wants to die, and lost his mind, faith, everything. b ) "delusions"? Where? He proved everything what he said about the Circle/Gallows – in fact, everything were WORSE, than he ever thought. c) Learned to restrain Vengeance? Then WHY he didn't stop the explosion, if there was time? Where is the redemption arc in the support the oppressors in a mass murder?
2. Justice isn't demon, doesn't force Anders for anything (yes, he didn't stop the relationship with Hawke etc.), and this also proves: he didn't force Anders to blow up the Chantry. And accepted Hawke's verdict. Anders/Justice learned to handle the situation. Perhaps he knew, the end would he become a raging abomination what he wanted to avoid. He says to Hawke, until he can restrain the "monster" inside... Obvious rivaly, with himself. But Justice, still a spirit, and Anders doesn't start to be a raging Abomination.
3. Justice became Vengeance – and lost his mind: he already wants revenge on EVERYONE, including the mages and himself. Self-destructive. But then where Anders became a "better person" (back to Hepler), and where is that redemption arc what many people finds in rivalry? (Even Hawke suggests that at the Gallows, when spares his life: s/he will not give up Anders – and say in the Inquisition as well – while also says: s/he doesn't even think, s/he knew Anders either... So: what Hawke exactly thin: Anders is here, and worth to save, or not even exists anymore?)
*
My conclusion: the rivalry as some "enlightening" way, with Anders doesn't make sense. (But this is just an opinion.)
(About who started the war: he started the revolution, it was in the epilogue, whatever happened – it not even clearly retconned, because he was an important part of this, I still believe, but the war was started by the Seekers – Cassandra is very clear about it, and not just because she felt guilt 0150yes, she did–, but the Asunder showed it.)
***
It was interesting to me, why exactly started to call Anders to Anders. He refused to say anything. So: according to me 1. he looked like a typical Ander, 2. probably he had accent, from his father.
He's around 30~32 when the Awakening happened and DA2 started. He was 12, when his magic manifested. Irving was the First Enchanter already, we know, and he became a First Enchanter in 9:10, so Anders can't be older than 32, but he spent almost 20 years in the Circle, so: 12 + 20 = 32, minus 1-2 year(s)
Seems he's the same age as Nathaniel and Varric.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 24, 2020 20:50:44 GMT
My conclusion: the rivalry as some "enlightening" way, with Anders doesn't make sense. Hmm, it doesn't make much sense to me either. I've only ever succeeded in rivalling him once, with a mage Hawke who essentially seemed to have bought into the whole "cursed by the Maker" idea. She had a chaste romance with Sebastian, tended to send mages back to the Circle and criticised Anders constantly about his merging with Justice. By the end of Act 2 she had said she wanted nothing more to do with him and so the next time she spoke to him was after the explosion. It seemed to me that if she objected that much to the Justice merger by that stage she would have washed her hands of him. There was just nothing of friendship between them. As I say, the symptoms Anders shows on the rivalry path do seem to resemble those of someone in a mental breakdown (which makes sense considering apparently she used mental illness as a reference). Ironically in the middle ages, those with mental illness were regarded as being possessed. To be honest, as I know from persona experience, when you are in the grip of paranoid delusions it does feel like you are not really yourself and someone else is controlling you, particularly when recalling the experience after you recover yourself. Delusions are just that though with no substance in reality. The problem is in Anders' case he is possessed and there seems scant evidence he has come out the other side "healed" of his condition when on the rival path. How has he learned to control the spirit inside of him? By Act 3 the opposite seems true. He wasn't deluded about how conditions are in the Circles and the Gallows in particular but you could argue he was deluded in thinking blowing up the Chantry would change things for the better. However, forcing him to support the Templars, going against his principles, that he has held since DAA, to my mind makes his mental breakdown complete. So I think I'll just have to accept that I don't understand what she was trying to do on the rival path.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 24, 2020 21:26:52 GMT
Seems he's the same age as Nathaniel and Varric Well that makes sense but it does amuse me that I put the age of my Wardens as late teens/early twenties, particularly my mages as they are taking their Harrowing at the beginning of DAO and Bethany is said to be older than normal for taking the harrowing and she is only 22. So the HoF is quite a bit younger than their recruits in DAA. (Mind you they were a great deal younger than Wynne). Even Hawke is between 6-7 years younger than Anders.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 24, 2020 21:48:12 GMT
Seems he's the same age as Nathaniel and Varric Well that makes sense but it does amuse me that I put the age of my Wardens as late teens/early twenties, particularly my mages as they are taking their Harrowing at the beginning of DAO and Bethany is said to be older than normal for taking the harrowing and she is only 22. So the HoF is quite a bit younger than their recruits in DAA. (Mind you they were a great deal younger than Wynne). Even Hawke is between 6-7 years younger than Anders. Yes, the Warden is around 20, or even younger (I made my Cousland ~23, because in another world he's my Hawke's lover – for a while, and I love they're similar age). So: when the Warden was 10, Anders and Nathaniel was 20... around...
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 25, 2020 7:52:46 GMT
es, the Warden is around 20, or even younger It also explains why the Crows initially thought that Loghain was a better bet against the Blight, so accepted the contract on the two young Wardens. Probably why other people in Ferelden did too, regardless of whether they regarded Orlais as a genuine threat. It had been 400 years since the last Blight and the Wardens are a secretive bunch, so no one outside the Wardens knows exactly why having them is so essential to finally defeating the Arch-demon. So the choice is between a couple of wet behind the ears new recruits or a veteran commander who has never let them down before and maintained it was Cailan's insistence on standing on the front line, against the advice of his senior commander, which led to his death. On this occasion how people react makes sense. Of course, by DAA the HoF has proven their worth, so no one doubts their ability to lead, even Weishauppt. Mind you, I think the Orlesian Warden would be older and probably nearer to Anders and Nathaniel in age, because Weishauppt wouldn't want to entrust such an important venture to just any inexperienced young recruit. In fact they might even be a bit older and in their mid-thirties, so a fair bit of experience (depending on when they were recruited) but not yet feeling the effects of the Calling.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 25, 2020 10:43:33 GMT
Anders in rivalry become a "better person" recognizes his "delusions" I'm still puzzled about his writers comment. Leaving aside his ideas in Act 3, where are the delusions earlier? The only one that I can see is: He can control Justice. He admits this is a problem and that his emotions may be having an adverse affect on the spirit, which is the complete opposite of a delusion. He is acknowledging the reality of the situation. Nevertheless, the number of times that Justice acts in a way contrary to what Anders might have done on his own are very few. In fact, the only time I can think of is with Ella. Even in Act 3, a person who had been through the amount of trauma in his life as Anders could have been persuaded into taking the action he did by some outside influence (which is why I have looked much more closely at the significance of the Resolutionists appearing when they did), whilst still having freewill in his relationship with Justice. So Anders made the free choice of action, with the backing of Justice. Of course, on the rival path Justice does seem to be the driving force, so I suppose it is a valid point that he recognises he cannot control him but on the friendship path it just seem to be a case that they are of one mind, so is that the delusion, that he isn't aware that Justice is controlling him? As I have said elsewhere, I wish now that they had left out the whole possession thing with Anders because it is never properly explained and left to the individual to interpret as they see fit, which would be all very well if he hadn't bombed the Chantry. So if Justice is controlling his mind on both the friendship and the rivalry path, then Anders isn't responsible for the act at all, it is Justice. Then Anders is the one who is killed and Justice is free to possess someone else, which if he is now a controlling demon instead of a co-existing spirit, he is going to do. There are enough corpses lying around that he doesn't have to go far to find a temporary host at least. If Justice was in so much control by Act 3, why doesn't he come out more in the final battle? Both Anders and Cullen seem to believe that if you attack a demon enough it will show itself in self defense. So we are attacked by innumerable Templars and lesser demons, several greater demons, the peculiar abomination that was Orsino and finally Meredith, yet throughout all this Anders seems perfectly normal, despite at one point being severely attacked by Meredith. At that point, against the ultra Templar, who was responsible for the injustice of the Annulment, Justice should have come out. Yet apparently Anders was enough in control to prevent this happening, no doubt because he did fear what Justice might do when unleashed. To be honest, a part of me would have liked to have seen that; a showdown between blight powered Meredith and Justice powered Anders, a bit like the confrontation between Wynne's faith spirit and the demon in the Fade in Asunder, except that much more spectacular. Highly symbolic too. So Meredith does seem to be getting the upper hand in the fight against Hawke and Anders allows Justice to intervene. If Hawke had executed Anders, Justice revived him for that one final time to exact justice on behalf of the mages against Meredith. Then he departs for the Fade.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 25, 2020 12:41:05 GMT
I've decided the only way to resolve this is to replay this but as a rivalmance and see how different his responses are. The problem is that if I simply criticise his decision over merging with Justice I am likely to end up with a mid-range relationship that takes me nowhere. Still, I am going to see if this is possible because I don't disagree with his desire to achieve freedom for the mages but may be I can temper my enthusiasm enough that I don't get friendship points. I'll let you know how I get on.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 25, 2020 17:02:29 GMT
I've decided the only way to resolve this is to replay this but as a rivalmance and see how different his responses are. The problem is that if I simply criticise his decision over merging with Justice I am likely to end up with a mid-range relationship that takes me nowhere. Still, I am going to see if this is possible because I don't disagree with his desire to achieve freedom for the mages but may be I can temper my enthusiasm enough that I don't get friendship points. I'll let you know how I get on. I appreciate this, I just watched on YouTube, it was good enough to me
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Post by Catilina on Aug 25, 2020 17:46:42 GMT
Anders in rivalry become a "better person" recognizes his "delusions" I'm still puzzled about his writers comment. Leaving aside his ideas in Act 3, where are the delusions earlier? The only one that I can see is: He can control Justice. He admits this is a problem and that his emotions may be having an adverse affect on the spirit, which is the complete opposite of a delusion. He is acknowledging the reality of the situation. Nevertheless, the number of times that Justice acts in a way contrary to what Anders might have done on his own are very few. In fact, the only time I can think of is with Ella. Even in Act 3, a person who had been through the amount of trauma in his life as Anders could have been persuaded into taking the action he did by some outside influence (which is why I have looked much more closely at the significance of the Resolutionists appearing when they did), whilst still having freewill in his relationship with Justice. So Anders made the free choice of action, with the backing of Justice. Of course, on the rival path Justice does seem to be the driving force, so I suppose it is a valid point that he recognises he cannot control him but on the friendship path it just seem to be a case that they are of one mind, so is that the delusion, that he isn't aware that Justice is controlling him? As I have said elsewhere, I wish now that they had left out the whole possession thing with Anders because it is never properly explained and left to the individual to interpret as they see fit, which would be all very well if he hadn't bombed the Chantry. So if Justice is controlling his mind on both the friendship and the rivalry path, then Anders isn't responsible for the act at all, it is Justice. Then Anders is the one who is killed and Justice is free to possess someone else, which if he is now a controlling demon instead of a co-existing spirit, he is going to do. There are enough corpses lying around that he doesn't have to go far to find a temporary host at least. If Justice was in so much control by Act 3, why doesn't he come out more in the final battle? Both Anders and Cullen seem to believe that if you attack a demon enough it will show itself in self defense. So we are attacked by innumerable Templars and lesser demons, several greater demons, the peculiar abomination that was Orsino and finally Meredith, yet throughout all this Anders seems perfectly normal, despite at one point being severely attacked by Meredith. At that point, against the ultra Templar, who was responsible for the injustice of the Annulment, Justice should have come out. Yet apparently Anders was enough in control to prevent this happening, no doubt because he did fear what Justice might do when unleashed. To be honest, a part of me would have liked to have seen that; a showdown between blight powered Meredith and Justice powered Anders, a bit like the confrontation between Wynne's faith spirit and the demon in the Fade in Asunder, except that much more spectacular. Highly symbolic too. So Meredith does seem to be getting the upper hand in the fight against Hawke and Anders allows Justice to intervene. If Hawke had executed Anders, Justice revived him for that one final time to exact justice on behalf of the mages against Meredith. Then he departs for the Fade. Anders in fact brilliant in rivalry. His arguments, etc... and he just gave up EVERYTHING if Hawke a was firm enought in rivalry (100%) – also: for achieve this collapse of his faith, to deny his every goal, and question his whole life: Hawke should help him with Elthina... But why for Andraste's holy ass such kind of Hawke would help him in this? Not even believe Anders' cause, and thinks, Anders is driven by a demon... And maybe this Hawke is religious... and even if not: really what this Hawke expect, why s/he has to distract Elthina? The rivalry scene about "rivalHawke convinced Anders to not blow up the Chantry" – to be honest I was absolutely not convinced: (video) He says: No. No. Again and again... and when Hawke says there are time to stop it, he just says: yes time... and turned away. And Justice appears. Yells one and retreats. Interesting scene... I'm sure, he "called" Justice: he already was sure, Hawke would never understand him... (those "arguments"... to me sounds ... stupid...) He cried inside, and Justice came out, yelled one, and retreated... Seems harmless. And still didn't prevent even the relationship, if Anders in love... while this relationship seems really endangers their goal, in fact their life as well. No logic here. But of course, the rivalry also crushed Anders: he's still an Adrastian Circle Mage, who while questioned the Chantry, but the whole life in the Circle still had effect on him, and that fact, he demonized for years – maybe by his love, not just according to the Chantry. And he fears he made Justice a demon, and he's a monster (Hawke not once reminds him it in rivalry, he's an abomination, as I remember). Also: he's a healer, this act to him, I'm sure NOT easy. (And another thing, I'm sure: he thought about he should stop it – not just in rivalry (but this is just a head-canon, based on that he said to hawke, "speak of mages, to give a last chance to her to pick a side" – something similar, I didn't quote it verbatim.) So: while I didn't hear Hawke too convincing, and I don't think, he was convinced – but mentally (as you said as well), he was ruined. So: I think, you're right about this is rather mentally problem. I already wrote about it as well here, and I found this: But this is my interpretation – and you know, I'm biased...
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 25, 2020 20:44:22 GMT
But this is my interpretation – and you know, I'm biased... It is a major problem I have with the friendship/rivalry system that the person seems to be unduly influenced by Hawke, which is particularly problematic with Anders and understanding his condition. Anders and Justice were united at the outset in the cause to which they were going to devote themselves. Anders declares you cannot tell where one ends and the next begins. Then if Hawke opposes him enough, Anders contradicts everything he previously said and the two are no longer united but warring against one another. The biggest problem is with his dedication to mage freedom. Are we to understand by the end of the rivalry path that he no longer believes in this? Also, if he loves the whole person, if someone's outlook is so contrary to his own, why would he get involved in the first place? It is more than a distraction, it is a definite impediment. In fact I don't know why in Act 3 he even tries to get Hawke involved because he doesn't really need them, as evidenced by the fact he still successfully plants his bomb if you tell him to go away in Act 2. Trying to do the rivalry path is reminding me just how difficult it is for me as I end up making choices that I normally never would, if nothing else to prevent me gaining friendship points. So I didn't allow Anders to check Keran for possession, which to me makes no sense. Why wouldn't they used Anders' knowledge of the subject? If nothing else I assume Justice might be able to sense a demon even without the attack test. As for choices that give you rivalry, on the whole just focussing on Justice is not enough and you have to do things contrary to Anders' beliefs. I've just done Feynriel and I can just about justify sending him to the Circle because he is already being troubled by demons in his sleep and Hawke does have no real evidence that Marethari would be capable of dealing with this but I really don't like the idea of sending mages to the Circle after reading Alrick's note and seeing Karl, whilst keeping in character as Hawke. Personally I have felt pretty much as Anders has right from when I played the mage origin. My first run had been as a Dalish so I was viewing the Circle as an outsider. After seeing the damage Connor had done and then the carnage in the Circle, it did seem as though the Templars might have a point. Then I experienced it from within the Circle and everything changed. I pretty much agreed with the underlined part from what is said to be an extract of Anders' manifesto: Andraste suffered at the hands of magisters. Thus, she feared the influence of magic. But if the Maker blamed magic for the magisters' actions in the Black City, why would He still gift us with it? The oppression of mages stems from the fears of men, not the will of the Maker.In fact Anders is still influenced by the indoctrination he received in the Circle because I find scant evidence that Andraste did fear magic in the Chant of Light. It condemns the misuse of magic but not magic itself. It also says that: " All that the Maker has wrought is in His hand, Beloved and precious to Him." Surely doesn't that include mages? Throw in the fact that Tevinter believe that Andraste was a mage herself, which I also think is probably true, and there is no way she would advocate locking up mages for life when they have done nothing wrong. According to the Dalish the cause that united her and Shartan was freedom. So I was really annoyed in DA2 when on the one hand they gave us someone who was willing to champion the cause of mage freedom and then on the other promptly took him away again but saddling him with possession, which of course is the exact reason why the Chantry say mages need to be locked up. Then to rub salt in the wound, they make him effectively a terrorist bomber, so if you continue to stand by him you are condemned both in game and outside of it. Meanwhile, we've reached the end of the third game and the southern Chantry is still as strong as ever, yet it is an organisation that was founded by Drakon on the back of mass murder of anybody who followed a version of Andrastrianism that didn't agree with his own. Their treatment of mages alone down the years has resulted in numerous suicides by those mages who couldn't cope with life in the Circle, rape and other abuse by Templars of their charges, goodness knows how many apprentices being forced into the arms of demons during their Harrowing so they could be slain by the watching Templars and those who couldn't face it being made tranquil, along with anyone who dared challenge the system, which is to all intents and purposes murdering their soul as being able to enter the Fade in dreams is how the Maker says he created them to be: "From the Fade I crafted you and to the Fade you shall return each night in dreams, that you may always remember Me." Anders never submitted to the system and always strived for freedom. He was aware of just how cruel it is but Justice gave him the impetus to fight it. Writing this has made me realise I don't care anymore what the writer intended with the rivalry path. I support Anders and if the only way the writers are going to allow me to tear down the Chantry, which is a perversion of the teaching of Andraste, is by standing by him when he bombs it, then so be it.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Aug 26, 2020 2:06:29 GMT
I've been just reading the pretty interesting reports over last few days, but now I'm taking a swoop... So I was really annoyed in DA2 when on the one hand they gave us someone who was willing to champion the cause of mage freedom and then on the other promptly took him away again but saddling him with possession, which of course is the exact reason why the Chantry say mages need to be locked up. Then to rub salt in the wound, they make him effectively a terrorist bomber, so if you continue to stand by him you are condemned both in game and outside of it. Don't forget that, while some people in-universe (Cullen) and among the fandom whine that "it is all about the poor, poor mages", most NPC mages we met are usually chaotic evil mustache twirling blood mages or soon-to-be possession victims with bad judgement (Marethari) , while we get templars in more varied colours; from going AWOL due to conscience (Thrask, Emeric) over "traumatised, but asshole demeanour" (Cullen) to "tautological templar" (Meredith) to mass-rapist/utter dick (Alrik). Oh, and than there's Orsino's last minute stupidity, which some honestly think is justifying Meredith. If I'm not totally mistaken, even Gaider, who seems to be quite pushy about that whole "dangerous magic" schtick to me, said something to the effect of "perhaps less evil blood mages" when asked about what he would have done differently in DA2.
With regards to Hepler's comment, I guess she tried to justify the inclusion of rivalry-based romances in general, but did not give it as much thought at the time as the fandom afterwards. While I never did an Anders romance yet, I played both ways for Merrill and I was constantly on the edge between trying to be concerned if somewhat nagging and fearing to select an answer that was overly brow-beaty or downright abuse. I'd guess both romances have this potential.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2020 9:55:18 GMT
If I'm not totally mistaken, even Gaider, who seems to be quite pushy about that whole "dangerous magic" schtick to me, said something to the effect of "perhaps less evil blood mages" when asked about what he would have done differently in DA2. As I say, in DAO there was a reasonable balance between the two and you could make a case for either side. The problem was that naturally when offered the choice between saving the Circle and annulling it, most people naturally chose to give saving the mages a shot. Actually, in addition to seeing the flaws in the Circle on my mage playthrough, right from the outset I thought the Templars were victims of the Chantry as well. Alistair even suggested that the lyrium was insisted upon by them as necessary but it was really just a way of having control over the Templars, because of course neither the Warden nor Alistair appeared to need lyrium to be a Templar in that game. This is why I instantly became anti-Chantry rather than simply anti-Templar. Of course in DAO it was heavily implied that Templars were required to be celibate and then right at the beginning of DA2 we meet Aveline who is married to a Templar. So it seemed they had revised the idea to simply the Templars are not supposed to have relations with mages, which naturally would make for a conflict of interest as well as greater potential for abuse. Anyway, because of the majority deciding to save the mages in DAO, it would seem the writers felt they hadn't emphasised the dangers of mages enough, so they went completely over the top in DA2. Then the explanation for the situation being so different to DAO was partly explained by the Band of Three plotline. However, this simply confirmed the idea that had quickly formed in my mind on discovering the history of Kirkwall and the Gallows in particular. Why would you house mages in an old prison that has been the focus of suffering for centuries when everyone knows those locations attract demons? Then it turns out the Seekers were aware that Kirkwall has a disproportionately high number of blood mages and harrowing deaths, almost double those of the neighbouring Circles and Starkhaven and Ostwick. When this became apparent, surely the first thing you do is move the mages elsewhere because clearly the city is having an adverse effect on them. Apparently whilst Tevinter made use of this phenomenon, it may already have been there before they started utilising it for their own purposes. Kirkwall was really just a tragedy waiting to happen where mages were concerned and why mages seemed to be going poof and becoming abominations very easily. Even if they hadn't seen the sense of moving them before, surely what happened over the water in the Ferelden Circle should have been enough incentive to shift them. But no, let's just keep as many as possible locked up in Hellmouth. I like to think that every mage Anders helped escape through the mage underground was a mage saved even without taking into consideration the Annulment. Most of them did manage to reach safer locations and so far as we were aware did not cause any problems there. If Meredith's poor sensitive sister lived anywhere near Kirkwall, it is hardly surprising what happened to her. Ultimately sending Feynriel away to Tevinter was probably the saving of him as well. It is hardly surprising how distressed he was in his dreams considering we are told in JoH that Dreamers actually find being in the presence of powerful demons intensely painful. So like I say, anyone with a modicum of common sense would not have housed large numbers of mages, particularly young, vulnerable mages, anywhere near Kirkwall. If the Circle had been based elsewhere and the population made aware of how much the locality was endangering their mage children, may be they would either have left too or have been more willing to let them leave with the Templars. Plus, if the Veil was that thin and the vibes that bad, may be it would effect ordinary people too, particularly ordinary people chugging lyrium. So perhaps it was affecting the Templars too. Nevertheless, the suicides and abuse that Anders spoke of weren't just confined to Kirkwall. One of Cole's monologues seem to be hinting at something enough that it appalled Cassandra and Cole had been nowhere near Kirkwall, either picking up the memory of the event whilst in the White Spire or possibly from spending so much time alongside the Templars in Therinfall. Actually I am beginning to understand Orsino a bit more having read his biography in WoT2. Having originally grown up in Ansburg alienage, he was taken to Kirkwall upon his magic manifesting and initially just kept to survive if you can attitude he had known in the alienage. However, he was befriended by a human girl, who had come from a loving family and never really adjusted to life in the Circle. She eventually committed suicide as did many others, apparently one or two a year at first and then even more as the Templars rule became more strict. These weighed on his mind as did his first friend's final words to him "This is no life", so when the First Enchanter died in 9:28, having been secluded from the other mages for the best part of 10 years, so doing nothing for them, Orsino volunteered for the role that none of the other senior enchanters wanted and did his best to fight within the system for his fellow mages. It was a thankless task, largely unsupported by anyone else and then Anders said what he did to him. He sees the mages he cared about being slaughtered and, as he says to Hawke, knows that even if they do by some miracle survive the onslaught and escape the city, they are all now apostates and committed to a life on the run, so something in his mind just broke and like a warden mage surrounded by darkspawn he decided to just take as many with him as he could, even though this might include those who had just supported him. I have to admit though, that if one of those defending him was Anders, may be Orsino did want revenge on him as well as Meredith, plus Hawke for allowing him to live. He just didn't say as much.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 26, 2020 10:38:43 GMT
I have been watching on You Tube what Justice says about Torpor. He says he has been opposed to demons of sloth from the beginning because they are associated with complacency and injustice, taking away a person's sense of purpose. It is interesting that one of demons that Torpor is in conflict with is a desire demon, that Solas maintains is merely a perverted sense of purpose.
Anyway, it occurs to me that Justice would not regard Elthina as simply an even handed peacemaker but someone who is complacently accepting of a situation without considering whether it could be improved and making an active attempt to remedy it. She repeats the Chant of Light each day without actually taking the trouble to think about what it is actually saying. She is content to merely maintain the status quo and refuses to "choose a side". In his mind, her lack of drive and purpose, is exacerbating the injustice not just to the mages but the whole city. To Justice she is on the side of Sloth, so that would explain why Justice at least would target her rather than Meredith, because the latter at least has a sense of purpose and is not complacent. So whilst I do not believe Anders was being controlled by Justice, I do think the latter may have influenced his choice of target.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 26, 2020 11:34:12 GMT
I have been watching on You Tube what Justice says about Torpor. He says he has been opposed to demons of sloth from the beginning because they are associated with complacency and injustice, taking away a person's sense of purpose. It is interesting that one of demons that Torpor is in conflict with is a desire demon, that Solas maintains is merely a perverted sense of purpose. Anyway, it occurs to me that Justice would not regard Elthina as simply an even handed peacemaker but someone who is complacently accepting of a situation without considering whether it could be improved and making an active attempt to remedy it. She repeats the Chant of Light each day without actually taking the trouble to think about what it is actually saying. She is content to merely maintain the status quo and refuses to "choose a side". In his mind, her lack of drive and purpose, is exacerbating the injustice not just to the mages but the whole city. To Justice she is on the side of Sloth, so that would explain why Justice at least would target her rather than Meredith, because the latter at least has a sense of purpose and is not complacent. So whilst I do not believe Anders was being controlled by Justice, I do think the latter may have influenced his choice of target. I'm fascinated! Many good points in your posts. Thank you for sharing. I agree about Elthina, here was a conversation about the inner demons in DA2. Elthina has two: sloth and pride as well ("I'm Grand Cleric, who'd dare attack me?"). Also: while Anders clearly wants Meredith head, he sees, Meredith at least acts according her purpose, beliefs. Anders: How can you keep standing up for her? Sebastian: Who? Anders: That doddering old biddy of a Grand Cleric. Sebastian: How dare you! Elthina is everything a grand cleric should be. She's holy, wise— Anders: Spineless... hesitant. She's clay in Meredith's hands. Sebastian: In the face of danger, sometimes the bravest thing is to stand back and trust that the Maker will see justice done. Anders: Well if doing nothing sums up your religion, then Elthina is perfect. Personally, I'd prefer a Chantry that favors action over sloth.Meredith shows her what is her, and acts. Elthina just exists, when she in charge, so she should declare standpoint. Anders acts against this. Against the silent acceptance/support of Meredith's methods – because of this is the real enemy. Nothing will change, until this kind of acceptance exists. But this is not only Justice: Anders blames the Chantry as well. I think, he knows, that not the Templars are the main problem. Just the arm, the head is the Chantry. He's Andrastian, and hates the Chantry twists and uses Andraste's words as weapon against them (Awakening).
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