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Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Aug 14, 2020 21:04:42 GMT
But it good you mentioned. In my Hawke's story, he didn't find Ella's phylactery, so he tried to cover her tracks with blood magic. Knowing this, it absolutely not that wild idea... Actually this would explain it, as the serial killer is using necromancy and blood magic so it probably is how he covered his tracks. Meanwhile Aidan and Anders are getting on famously. Anders has already told Aidan he is attracted to the person not the looks, though to be honest they make a handsome couple. Aidan is inspired by Anders and feels he finally has something (and someone) he can dedicate himself to in his own right. After his father died, he assumed responsibility for training his sister and caring for the whole family but that was more duty rather than something he chose for himself. He always hated having to be constantly on the move and looking over his shoulder for the Templars. He was definitely not happy about having to go to Kirkwall but now he is there, he sees it as fate throwing him in the way of Anders so he can help him in his crusade. All my previous mage Hawkes were trying hard to prove that mages could be trusted with power. By contrast Aidan resents the idea that any mage must justify being allowed in the community when there are so many non-mages who abuse their power, particularly the Templars. At present my main worry is Fenris. I'd assumed that this run I'd probably end up rivalling him but I've just got a whole load of friendship points for criticising Merrill. What I don't want to end up doing is having to kill him, which is what happens if you stay middle ground and don't go to one extreme or the other (something I always felt was annoying). However, does he only turn on you at the end if he isn't in your party? Ralph (red blood mage, no-compromise pro-freedom) got the easiest friendship with Fenris – already in the start of act3, they were the best friends ever (the 100% ticked when he visited Fenris right after the Act3 started – with the red answer: [+5]) I planned rivalry with him, but Fenris seems sometimes adored him, so, I changed my mind. (Most interesting PT, he lead my hand:) his relationships: Don't worry: Hadriana's quest gives a lot of friendship to a pro-freedom Hawke (this was always the challenge in rivalry...) To me: Anders' love is very satisfying with a Hawke, who anti-Circle, and shares his view, a different angle. I had Hawke who just wanted to protect his family. I love this as well, but Ralph was one of my most fun PT.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,676
gervaise21
10,794
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 15, 2020 8:24:39 GMT
Ralph (red blood mage, no-compromise pro-freedom) got the easiest friendship with Fenris – already in the start of act3, they were the best friends ever (the 100% ticked when he visited Fenris right after the Act3 started – with the red answer: [+5]) By contrast, my first run when I ended up romancing him, it took until the nearly the end of Act 3 to get enough friendship points that I finally got the scene where we make up and it took giving him the Sword of Mercy to do it. He wasn't even the one kidnapped because of this; instead I got Varric. I had played that one totally straight as I took Fenris with me everywhere regardless of whether I thought he would approve or not. I felt I really had to work at that one but it was worth it when he declared his love for my mage. She spared Anders because she agreed with Merrill, he could help them save the mages since he was the one who was responsible for them being in danger and if Meredith chose to ignore the truth and call an illegal annulment, then Hawke felt she wasn't going to do any more of Meredith's dirty work for her. Anders was touchingly surprised. Anyway, I think you are right, it is going to be easier to friendship Fenris than rival him. I may just cheat a little on one or two quests where I know he is not going to be happy at my decisions and leave him behind, the in-game explanation being why would Aidan take him when it involves mages and he has no intention of sending them back to the Circle? Certainly in Act 1 he doesn't know Fenris well enough that he can trust him not to go running to the Templars. Something like that anyway.
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Wanted Apostate
127
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18,242
Catilina
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August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Aug 15, 2020 9:52:33 GMT
Ralph (red blood mage, no-compromise pro-freedom) got the easiest friendship with Fenris – already in the start of act3, they were the best friends ever (the 100% ticked when he visited Fenris right after the Act3 started – with the red answer: [+5]) By contrast, my first run when I ended up romancing him, it took until the nearly the end of Act 3 to get enough friendship points that I finally got the scene where we make up and it took giving him the Sword of Mercy to do it. He wasn't even the one kidnapped because of this; instead I got Varric. I had played that one totally straight as I took Fenris with me everywhere regardless of whether I thought he would approve or not. I felt I really had to work at that one but it was worth it when he declared his love for my mage. She spared Anders because she agreed with Merrill, he could help them save the mages since he was the one who was responsible for them being in danger and if Meredith chose to ignore the truth and call an illegal annulment, then Hawke felt she wasn't going to do any more of Meredith's dirty work for her. Anders was touchingly surprised. Anyway, I think you are right, it is going to be easier to friendship Fenris than rival him. I may just cheat a little on one or two quests where I know he is not going to be happy at my decisions and leave him behind, the in-game explanation being why would Aidan take him when it involves mages and he has no intention of sending them back to the Circle? Certainly in Act 1 he doesn't know Fenris well enough that he can trust him not to go running to the Templars. Something like that anyway. You don't have to turn to the Circle the mages, I didn't make one pro-Circle decision with Ralph, and still. He killed Karras, because when he saw, that not Thrask is the one, with whom he should speak and this other is a prick, he didn't felt so much urge to like: the provocateur jumped out f him... (a red one can't lie) – in fact he killed most of the Templars whom he faced... in the Sundermount as well. Oh, and he did the Dissent (Ella quest) only with Anders – he didn't call anyone else (it's their task – and secret). With my purple/red warrior was harder to befriend with Fenris, only at the end he gained 100% friendship. (While unlike in Ralph's case, I planned friendship with him, and he didn't start with +50 rivalry...)
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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26,676
gervaise21
10,794
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 15, 2020 16:24:47 GMT
Ralph (red blood mage, no-compromise pro-freedom) Can you clear something up for me, how do you understand blood magic? Anders thinks it involves doing a deal with a demon, Merrill doesn't deny she is using a demon but calls it a spirit. Every other blood mage seems to see it as getting power in return for giving a demon something it wants. Yet the codex for DA2 specifically says that people think it is the only form of magic that is truly free because it doesn't involve doing deals with spirits or demons. So which is it? Are you doing deals or not doing deals? Personally I'd go with Anders because of his insider knowledge from Justice, so even if he has been influenced by the prejudices of the Circle and Chantry, Justice would correct him if he was totally wrong in his assumptions. Anders is so against blood magic that I would have thought he must know it involves working with a demon but the codex contradicts this. I must admit that if sacrifice and suffering is necessary to gain the power then it would seem some sentient being has to be involved. Calien in Last Flight seemed to think it involved doing a blind bargain with something or someone, so if not a demon then who?
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Wanted Apostate
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18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Aug 15, 2020 17:23:44 GMT
Ralph (red blood mage, no-compromise pro-freedom) Can you clear something up for me, how do you understand blood magic? Anders thinks it involves doing a deal with a demon, Merrill doesn't deny she is using a demon but calls it a spirit. Every other blood mage seems to see it as getting power in return for giving a demon something it wants. Yet the codex for DA2 specifically says that people think it is the only form of magic that is truly free because it doesn't involve doing deals with spirits or demons. So which is it? Are you doing deals or not doing deals? Personally I'd go with Anders because of his insider knowledge from Justice, so even if he has been influenced by the prejudices of the Circle and Chantry, Justice would correct him if he was totally wrong in his assumptions. Anders is so against blood magic that I would have thought he must know it involves working with a demon but the codex contradicts this. I must admit that if sacrifice and suffering is necessary to gain the power then it would seem some sentient being has to be involved. Calien in Last Flight seemed to think it involved doing a blind bargain with something or someone, so if not a demon then who? He has a demon who constantly appears in his story, who tempts him, but I didn't decide yet, how he learned the blood magic exactly. He refused the demon in his 15, but chose this way finally in late teen: around his 18. He has forbidden tomes – from Tevinter etc. – but he's about playing with fire, so I lean toward, that he learned it from "his" demon (I didn't want to make a pure, innocent blood mage.) It is possible to learn it from books, I'm sure. His arc while he doesn't gice up his blood magic, he stop "playing" demons and be more careful about the old altars etc... (he destroyed the altar of Dumat, when he looked into Anders' eyes – for example). I don't think, Justice knows more about the blood magic than Anders, while he knows more about the spirits (he's one of them) – what is interesting about him, he divides the Fade habitants to spirit/demons, like the Andrastians, not like Merrill... And: he believes the desires twists their purpose and make them demons, but from where the desires come? This is a weird mix of Merrill's knowledge: all demons are spirits, and the Andrastian demons and spirits are different theory. But we know: he's judgemental... so what if his spirit/demon subdivision only coming from his moral judgement (Also: we can't forget, that Kristoff's and Anders' knowledge/beliefs about it already his own...) I'm sure, the Spirits don't know more about the whole world (Fade + mortal world) like the mortals, and they know about the Fade's nature like a mortal about the mortal world... so: far not the whole. Anders and Justice also share their knowledge/beliefs, what can widen their view, just like can be their limitation (overconfidence – judgemental personality). If it makes sense...
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∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,676
gervaise21
10,794
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 16, 2020 8:06:11 GMT
I am really enjoying playing DA2 again. Okay so they reuse maps and enemies re-spawning and dropping from the skies has always been annoying but the storylines are interesting. The only thing I feel would have been better would be for it not to be told as flashback by Varric because you know in advance where this journey is taking you. I like the element of surprise, at least first time round.
Speaking of surprises, I had a result I hadn't expected in the Starkhaven mages quest, having never had it before so far as I can recall. I refused to simply murder Thrask and instead said I would try and convince the Templars they were dead. Now I'm pretty certain that on my previous runs I either persuaded them myself or more often failed to do so and ended up killing Karras. What I have never done before is let Varric deal with the situation. I was gobsmacked when he says that I am an Enchanter from Ferelden come to help the Templers with the mage situation. I thought "They won't possibly buy that, particularly as you have straight up told them I'm a mage". Yet weirdly enough it worked. I assume Karras must have assumed he was out of the loop about this despite being one of Meredith's favourites. He was a bit doubtful at first but my rather flippant response to his concerned did the trick. Grace was very impressed; I was simply dazed. On the subject of Grace, I wonder why she got caught because Terrie got away, so did Terrie abandon the rest of the group or did Grace? The Starkhaven mages had a big advantage over the majority of apostates because their phylacteries had been destroyed so that wasn't how the Templars found her.
I have to admit that seeing the ancient Thaig again really brought home how odd it looks compared to the majority of dwarven constructs in the Deep Roads. It isn't just the red lyrium everywhere but the design, particularly those black statues lining the walls where you would normally see the ancestors. We've said elsewhere about their resemblance to the Claw of Dumat that Corypheus used for the blood sacrifice. However, I think they are more likely stylised representations of a god or gods on which the Claw was based. Knowing what we do now, there is no doubt in my mind the ancient elves were responsible for this section of the Deep Roads, even if they used dwarves in its construction.
Anyway we are back from the Deep Roads, Anders and I have sworn to protect one another and I am now diplomatic contact to the Arishok, so I imagine if my noble status and wealth weren't enough to keep me safe from the Templars, my status as the only person he is willing to deal with must have pretty much clinched it. Everyone knows how they view mages so to be willing to talk to me would suggest I must be a trustworthy one and even Meredith isn't so paranoid yet she wouldn't want to avoid starting a new war with the Qun. I do feel sorry for Emeric, a decent sort of Templar who instead of persecuting innocent mages is trying to track down a killer, but even his own commander ignores him and tells him to back off Gaspard du Pius, which is ironic when he actually is a rogue blood mage. Its amazing what being noble does for your credibility.
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Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Aug 16, 2020 20:23:49 GMT
I am really enjoying playing DA2 again. Okay so they reuse maps and enemies re-spawning and dropping from the skies has always been annoying but the storylines are interesting. The only thing I feel would have been better would be for it not to be told as flashback by Varric because you know in advance where this journey is taking you. I like the element of surprise, at least first time round.
Speaking of surprises, I had a result I hadn't expected in the Starkhaven mages quest, having never had it before so far as I can recall. I refused to simply murder Thrask and instead said I would try and convince the Templars they were dead. Now I'm pretty certain that on my previous runs I either persuaded them myself or more often failed to do so and ended up killing Karras. What I have never done before is let Varric deal with the situation. I was gobsmacked when he says that I am an Enchanter from Ferelden come to help the Templers with the mage situation. I thought "They won't possibly buy that, particularly as you have straight up told them I'm a mage". Yet weirdly enough it worked. I assume Karras must have assumed he was out of the loop about this despite being one of Meredith's favourites. He was a bit doubtful at first but my rather flippant response to his concerned did the trick. Grace was very impressed; I was simply dazed. On the subject of Grace, I wonder why she got caught because Terrie got away, so did Terrie abandon the rest of the group or did Grace? The Starkhaven mages had a big advantage over the majority of apostates because their phylacteries had been destroyed so that wasn't how the Templars found her.
I have to admit that seeing the ancient Thaig again really brought home how odd it looks compared to the majority of dwarven constructs in the Deep Roads. It isn't just the red lyrium everywhere but the design, particularly those black statues lining the walls where you would normally see the ancestors. We've said elsewhere about their resemblance to the Claw of Dumat that Corypheus used for the blood sacrifice. However, I think they are more likely stylised representations of a god or gods on which the Claw was based. Knowing what we do now, there is no doubt in my mind the ancient elves were responsible for this section of the Deep Roads, even if they used dwarves in its construction.
Anyway we are back from the Deep Roads, Anders and I have sworn to protect one another and I am now diplomatic contact to the Arishok, so I imagine if my noble status and wealth weren't enough to keep me safe from the Templars, my status as the only person he is willing to deal with must have pretty much clinched it. Everyone knows how they view mages so to be willing to talk to me would suggest I must be a trustworthy one and even Meredith isn't so paranoid yet she wouldn't want to avoid starting a new war with the Qun. I do feel sorry for Emeric, a decent sort of Templar who instead of persecuting innocent mages is trying to track down a killer, but even his own commander ignores him and tells him to back off Gaspard du Pius, which is ironic when he actually is a rogue blood mage. Its amazing what being noble does for your credibility. My Hawkes usually lied to Karras or let Varric do it (not like they wouldn't able, I usually go with purple one, but some of them thought its Varric's job... after all, he's the storyteller...) So, this was the first pt, when happened Hawke killed Karras. Varric's "story" if hilarious by the way. Interesting theory about the ancient thaig. Anders is very sympathetic after the Deep Road expedition if Carver/Bethany became a grey Warden: he tries to reassure Hawke, that they're stronger than they expect... while Varric just speak about that sorry, and they will be rich... About Hawke's untouchable status: probably yes, that's a good point. Not just Hawke's richness and noble title protect Hawke from the templars, but Hawke is who can deal with things, and make his/her hand dirty if it needed. But if we look at DuPuis... and Lady Harriman* we can see, that Kirkwall Chantry/Templars are corrupted... Emeric was even punished for snooping around a noble... ___ *Lady Harriman was really a mage? We saw she holds a staff, BUT: Flora says, that her mother didn't believe he can be possessed etc, because was NO MAGE IN THEIR BLOODLINE... so, interesting..., and we also know, that this demon was in the labyrinth under the manor, probably NOT the lady summoned them...
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inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,676
gervaise21
10,794
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 16, 2020 21:16:50 GMT
*Lady Harriman was really a mage? We saw she holds a staff, BUT I've often wondered about this. If someone has sufficiently strong emotions about something might they not attract a demon even if they are not a mage? Then provided they are willing to make the necessary blood sacrifice the demon will give them power as though they are a mage. After all in Masked Empire Imshael was doing a deal with Michel and he was not a mage. In return for offering him someone to possess, by placing their blood on the stone, he would alter the memories of people to aid Michel's deception. In the end, Michel didn't comply but that is not to say it wouldn't have been possible. So Lady Harriman had apparently done a deal with the demon allowing it to possess her husband and children in return for its aid. I think there was also a recent corpse in the basement that suggested she had sacrificed one of the workers. The alternative explanation must be that Lady Harriman was a mage of negligible ability, a bit like Felix, so not enough to attract the Templars and as her daughter says, not enough that she felt she was in danger of possession but enough for the demon to take an interest. Either way, at the end of the day Lady Harriman was not possessed herself but simply consumed with her desire for greater status in Starkhaven, which is what the demon worked with.
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inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,676
gervaise21
10,794
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 16, 2020 21:27:39 GMT
Well Aidan and Anders have sworn eternal love for each other, so I am well and truly committed now. Fenris is 100% friend already and it is not even the end of Act 2. He thinks I'm a wonderful mage. I must also confess that I now agree that Anders hasn't really changed from DAA, apart from the Justice thing of course. I've been able to see a bit of the old wit there by mixing up the party a bit more, so he and Fenris aren't continually at each other's throats, which does neither of them much favours. There does seem a hierarchy to getting certain banter between companions (it was the same in DAI). There is also that wonderful comment after rescuing Feynriel in the Fade. "There's nothing like being possessed to keep you on the straight and narrow." Mind you after the Ella incident I wanted to say: "and there's nothing like being possessed for scaring the sh** out of me!" Still at least mother has now got the message about Anders so is no longer looking for suitable matches for me.
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Wanted Apostate
127
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18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Aug 16, 2020 22:02:01 GMT
Well Aidan and Anders have sworn eternal love for each other, so I am well and truly committed now. Fenris is 100% friend already and it is not even the end of Act 2. He thinks I'm a wonderful mage. I must also confess that I now agree that Anders hasn't really changed from DAA, apart from the Justice thing of course. I've been able to see a bit of the old wit there by mixing up the party a bit more, so he and Fenris aren't continually at each other's throats, which does neither of them much favours. There does seem a hierarchy to getting certain banter between companions (it was the same in DAI). There is also that wonderful comment after rescuing Feynriel in the Fade. "There's nothing like being possessed to keep you on the straight and narrow." Mind you after the Ella incident I wanted to say: "and there's nothing like being possessed for scaring the sh** out of me!" Still at least mother has now got the message about Anders so is no longer looking for suitable matches for me. Fairy tale: Want a sandwich? Not? This was the test, and you chose wisely. Then now I can offer my eternal love. I love when Hawke deals with the sloth, Anders tells, that he doesn't like to go into the Fade, because he hates to be a guest in his own body, and sure, justice feels like that as well in the mortal world... trapped in his body... And in this case: he speaks about two personalities again... About Leandra: some people really hate her. I don't. But this little thing still shows Leandra, and their relationship, family... what was far not that perfect, seems Hawke and Leandra were never really close. She really doesn't know Hawke's heart, or just ignores, because of as noble, Hawke should make a "good" marriage... BUT: SHE MARRIED An APOSTATE (not with De Launcet – who was her parent's choice). Did she regret do not listen to her parents and run with Malcolm Hawke? But yes, after Hawke slept with Anders (or any other LI) she seems happy with her child's choice. BUT (again...): she immediately starts to speak about she found someone as well... so, seems she's self-centred. And... seems still: she really loves her family. Seems it sure, she didn't regret REALLY her decision... but seems sometimes daydreams about if she was noble, not a persecuted man's persecuted wife, with stigmatized children... Probably she also wanted a better life for her children. Probably especially to Bethany. She still a noble's daughter, she knows the easy life – and knows the hard life as well. Sometimes seems selfish. Sometimes blames another people – for example, Hawke (and I'm sure, she did with Malcolm as well... but who knows), but she knows, she chose. So: just a family. To me: seems a loving family with its flaws. (I love DA2...)
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0
13,868
Rascoth
4,161
August 2016
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Post by Rascoth on Aug 17, 2020 7:34:15 GMT
What I have never done before is let Varric deal with the situation. I was gobsmacked when he says that I am an Enchanter from Ferelden come to help the Templers with the mage situation. I thought "They won't possibly buy that, particularly as you have straight up told them I'm a mage". Yet weirdly enough it worked. I assume Karras must have assumed he was out of the loop about this despite being one of Meredith's favourites. He was a bit doubtful at first but my rather flippant response to his concerned did the trick. Grace was very impressed; I was simply dazed. Whenever I pick this option with mage Hawke I always imagine Karras being flabbergasted enough to not question it. I mean, apostate admiting to being a mage? Lying about their status like that? Surely they're not that supid ( "Creative!" *Hawke screams from the distance). The fact that Thrask doesn't deny it just adds credibility to said claim, even if Karras doesn't particularly like him.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,676
gervaise21
10,794
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 17, 2020 7:53:23 GMT
But this little thing still shows Leandra, and their relationship, family... what was far not that perfect, seems Hawke and Leandra were never really close. She really doesn't know Hawke's heart, or just ignores, because of as noble, Hawke should make a "good" marriage... The thing is Thedas is based off medieval society IRL and this is exactly how things worked, at least for the nobility. Parents might well take their child's wishes into consideration in making a match but they still had to be of the right social status; hence the prevalence of lower class lovers on the side. Then there were political matches to improve ranking and/or wealth of the family. In some ways the higher up the scale you were, the harder it was to simply marry for love. So I totally get that once Leandra had got back her social status, she started working within the system again. It is noticeable she only started worrying about this once they were back as nobles in Hightown. Luckily for a mage Hawke, no reputable family would want to get involved with them, something that Leandra seemed to have forgotten about when blithely going on about looking for a suitable match. To be honest, in opting for their own choice of lover, Hawke probably saved her a lot of snubs and disappointment. It is interesting as well how quickly the Hawke family were reaccepted into the ranks of the nobility, even by the Orlesian nobles but that has totally to do with Leandra's birthright. They think they are nobility by divine right, so since Leandra was born a noble she was never not a noble in their eyes, once she had re-established herself in Hightown. The woman living in a Lowtown slum was Leandra Hawke, the wife of an apostate, but the lady in Hightown is Leandra Amell, a respectable widow lately returned from overseas. I must admit I was surprised that Leandra started to look around for a husband almost immediately on re-establishing herself though. Clearly she wasn't so lonely without Malcolm that she was willing to consider a commoner as a lover/husband but now there is a chance she might catch the eye of some noble, she starts to entertain the idea.
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Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Aug 17, 2020 18:33:36 GMT
I admit it's too satisfying to kill Karras. Easily my favourite opportunity.
I think, Quentin enmeshed Leandra, not Leandra started to find someone. (While ~6 years passed after Malcolm's death...)
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∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,676
gervaise21
10,794
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 18, 2020 7:51:10 GMT
So we fought the Arishok. I say we because it is so long since I fought him that my attempt at solo ended in failure. I just wasn't getting the spell combinations right and he kept chugging his health potions, so I was continually put back to square one. It also takes so long running around in between fighting him that I couldn't face making another attempt. It makes sense really to use the team, particularly as a mage, because outside foolish bravado there is no logical reason why a mage would risk one on one combat with the supreme commander of the Antaam, unless perhaps you are a blood mage, but I had taken a different path.
Anyway, it gave a new twist to this particular version of the story because the real champion of Kirkwall who slew the Arishok was Anders. Basically Aveline and Fenris were concentrating on the Arishok, Isabella was off on the top level dealing with people there and I was searching for the sarebaas. When I found him there was a wall of Qunari in the way, so Fenris couldn't get to him and of course I couldn't control Isabella, so I called on Anders to help me bring him down. I was nearly there when I was hit and rendered unconscious. About the same time Fenris went down as well. Aveline was hanging in there but it was Anders who finished off the sarebaas. For some reason Aveline took it into her head to leave the Arishok and go after some of the other soldiers. The Arishok went in pursuit, so Anders followed him and when his attention was elsewhere, brought him down with a few flourishes of his staff. Yet in the story Varric told to Cassandra, it was Hawke who made the final blow. In reality Hawke was still lying comatose. Thanks to Varric, though, the entirety of Thedas thinks Hawke is a hero. Poor Anders, if it hadn't been for him there wouldn't even be a Chantry to blow up. I must admit, though, that given what the Qun do to their mages, fighting the Arishok would have been a good time for Justice to come out.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,676
gervaise21
10,794
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 18, 2020 9:56:57 GMT
I have been considering again what occurs with Anders in Act 3. It is at that point he changes from committed upholder of mage rights and worker for mage freedom into a violent terrorist. It is too simple to say it was the result of his mind being warped by Justice or vice versa. I agree that Anders has always felt the Circles were unjust towards mages, right back to DAA. He was also always a caring person or he would never have become a spirit healer. Justice simply gave him the determination and impetus to widen the scope of his concern to act on behalf of all mages rather than just himself.
However, all his previous actions were along non-violent lines unless he was actually responding directly to Templars abuse of mages, when he had no choice but to defend them and himself. His work in the mage underground seemed chiefly to be helping mages escape from the Circle and gathering information that would assist his cause. He worked on written manifestos, presumably to circulate among the citizens and may be even send to the Divine. He was loudly outspoken against such practices as blood magic, even though he believed that many were only turning to it out of desperation. He was as angry as anyone when mages abused their power as it would make it bad for justifying mage freedom. Whilst he likes performing little acts of defiance, like wearing the Tevinter amulet, he doesn’t do this openly as he does not wish to be a martyr. He is always open and honest about what he intends to do and gives you the option of whether you want to be involved or not. Then in Act 3 his whole attitude changes. He is now willing to resort to violence to put his point across. He is secretive and lies to his closest friend about what he intends to do. He wants to be a martyr for his cause, apparently thinking that the best way to advance his agenda is to die for it. Justice has been with for the last 8 years and yet he has never prompted Anders in this way before. It cannot be explained that he is now a demon of Vengeance because blowing up the Chantry is not prompted by a desire for vengeance but a desire to make a political statement. To my mind the whole Justice aspect is a smoke screen for the fact that Anders has been radicalised by the Resolutionists. We first learn about this group in Act 3 (if you have the DLC but it is an essential part of the picture). They broke away from the Libertarian fraternity and became apostates supporting freedom for mages at all costs. They had been engaged in acts of terror and sabotage against the Chantry throughout Thedas but many were known to be in the Kirkwall mage underground. They have declared their intent to show people how little the Circle can protect them, until mages get their freedom. Now clearly Anders wasn’t a member in the first two Acts, nor does it seem likely he was the founder of this movement. Leliana says they come from outside Kirkwall and Fenris mentions rumours of them being connected with Tevinter. Whilst the game never connects the two, they do sound very similar to the Venatori activists in the south and they were also known to have infiltrated the mage rebellion and, according to Fiona, were the reason the vote was in the majority for surrendering to Alexius in DAI. As the Venatori seem to have outlived Corypheus, it is likely they were already in existence before his freedom but regardless of when we play Legacy, it fits better in the years between the end of Act 2 and the beginning of Act 3, so he could already have been active causing trouble across the south. Regardless, the Resolutionists are a known terrorist group, advocating just the sort of action that Anders takes. The reason I wondered about the Corypheus connection is the size of the explosion. It was clearly enhanced with magic but it had a red signature. Dworkin said that lyrium sand could mimic the effects of gattlok. So given how it makes everything bigger and stronger, what do you suppose red lyrium sand would do?
Anyway, whilst the change in Anders’ approach could have been prompted by Meredith imposing martial law after the death of the Viscount, the type of mage apostate operating on the city streets has changed as well. Now they all seem to indulge in blood magic, something he was always vehemently opposed to, and Aveline says she thinks they have been deliberately releasing demons to terrorise the populace too. So I think his change in approach and behaviour is because he has been radicalised by the Resolutionists. They have persuaded him that the best way to advance his cause is to become a martyr to it. It is interesting that when he talks about combining the two ingredients, the resulting “boom” will free him and Justice. You could argue he assumes he will be executed but I think that his “friends” idea was that he should die in the explosion as a suicide bomber. Anders, though, wanted people to understand why he took the action he did, so he made sure he survived long enough to explain them, after which he just sat down and waited to die. Surely a spirit of vengeance would have reacted to the declaration of illegal annulment by wanting revenge on the person who did it? Instead he just sat there passively awaiting his fate. If anything is was Justice influencing him, except that wasn’t the reason he wanted to die. His bombing of the Chantry wasn’t done out of vengeance or desire for justice but as a political statement straight out of the propaganda for the Resolutionists. As such it cannot be blamed on his relationship with Justice but on those who targeted him and manipulated him to their way of thinking, just as is the case in real life.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 18, 2020 18:44:47 GMT
So we fought the Arishok. I say we because it is so long since I fought him that my attempt at solo ended in failure. I just wasn't getting the spell combinations right and he kept chugging his health potions, so I was continually put back to square one. It also takes so long running around in between fighting him that I couldn't face making another attempt. It makes sense really to use the team, particularly as a mage, because outside foolish bravado there is no logical reason why a mage would risk one on one combat with the supreme commander of the Antaam, unless perhaps you are a blood mage, but I had taken a different path. Anyway, it gave a new twist to this particular version of the story because the real champion of Kirkwall who slew the Arishok was Anders. Basically Aveline and Fenris were concentrating on the Arishok, Isabella was off on the top level dealing with people there and I was searching for the sarebaas. When I found him there was a wall of Qunari in the way, so Fenris couldn't get to him and of course I couldn't control Isabella, so I called on Anders to help me bring him down. I was nearly there when I was hit and rendered unconscious. About the same time Fenris went down as well. Aveline was hanging in there but it was Anders who finished off the sarebaas. For some reason Aveline took it into her head to leave the Arishok and go after some of the other soldiers. The Arishok went in pursuit, so Anders followed him and when his attention was elsewhere, brought him down with a few flourishes of his staff. Yet in the story Varric told to Cassandra, it was Hawke who made the final blow. In reality Hawke was still lying comatose. Thanks to Varric, though, the entirety of Thedas thinks Hawke is a hero. Poor Anders, if it hadn't been for him there wouldn't even be a Chantry to blow up. I must admit, though, that given what the Qun do to their mages, fighting the Arishok would have been a good time for Justice to come out. I always thought, it's very unfair duel as a mage. Oneshot – accordig to the lore. If not: how the mages are dangerous... In my story Ralph started without magic, just because of the challenge, and because he thought he should be just as strong like the Arishok... yes, he's fool... – and to explain, why this fight too hard to a mage. I agree about the Justice part
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Post by Catilina on Aug 18, 2020 22:19:28 GMT
I have been considering again what occurs with Anders in Act 3. It is at that point he changes from committed upholder of mage rights and worker for mage freedom into a violent terrorist. It is too simple to say it was the result of his mind being warped by Justice or vice versa. I agree that Anders has always felt the Circles were unjust towards mages, right back to DAA. He was also always a caring person or he would never have become a spirit healer. Justice simply gave him the determination and impetus to widen the scope of his concern to act on behalf of all mages rather than just himself.
However, all his previous actions were along non-violent lines unless he was actually responding directly to Templars abuse of mages, when he had no choice but to defend them and himself. His work in the mage underground seemed chiefly to be helping mages escape from the Circle and gathering information that would assist his cause. He worked on written manifestos, presumably to circulate among the citizens and may be even send to the Divine. He was loudly outspoken against such practices as blood magic, even though he believed that many were only turning to it out of desperation. He was as angry as anyone when mages abused their power as it would make it bad for justifying mage freedom. Whilst he likes performing little acts of defiance, like wearing the Tevinter amulet, he doesn’t do this openly as he does not wish to be a martyr. He is always open and honest about what he intends to do and gives you the option of whether you want to be involved or not. Then in Act 3 his whole attitude changes. He is now willing to resort to violence to put his point across. He is secretive and lies to his closest friend about what he intends to do. He wants to be a martyr for his cause, apparently thinking that the best way to advance his agenda is to die for it. Justice has been with for the last 8 years and yet he has never prompted Anders in this way before. It cannot be explained that he is now a demon of Vengeance because blowing up the Chantry is not prompted by a desire for vengeance but a desire to make a political statement. To my mind the whole Justice aspect is a smoke screen for the fact that Anders has been radicalised by the Resolutionists. We first learn about this group in Act 3 (if you have the DLC but it is an essential part of the picture). They broke away from the Libertarian fraternity and became apostates supporting freedom for mages at all costs. They had been engaged in acts of terror and sabotage against the Chantry throughout Thedas but many were known to be in the Kirkwall mage underground. They have declared their intent to show people how little the Circle can protect them, until mages get their freedom. Now clearly Anders wasn’t a member in the first two Acts, nor does it seem likely he was the founder of this movement. Leliana says they come from outside Kirkwall and Fenris mentions rumours of them being connected with Tevinter. Whilst the game never connects the two, they do sound very similar to the Venatori activists in the south and they were also known to have infiltrated the mage rebellion and, according to Fiona, were the reason the vote was in the majority for surrendering to Alexius in DAI. As the Venatori seem to have outlived Corypheus, it is likely they were already in existence before his freedom but regardless of when we play Legacy, it fits better in the years between the end of Act 2 and the beginning of Act 3, so he could already have been active causing trouble across the south. Regardless, the Resolutionists are a known terrorist group, advocating just the sort of action that Anders takes. The reason I wondered about the Corypheus connection is the size of the explosion. It was clearly enhanced with magic but it had a red signature. Dworkin said that lyrium sand could mimic the effects of gattlok. So given how it makes everything bigger and stronger, what do you suppose red lyrium sand would do?
Anyway, whilst the change in Anders’ approach could have been prompted by Meredith imposing martial law after the death of the Viscount, the type of mage apostate operating on the city streets has changed as well. Now they all seem to indulge in blood magic, something he was always vehemently opposed to, and Aveline says she thinks they have been deliberately releasing demons to terrorise the populace too. So I think his change in approach and behaviour is because he has been radicalised by the Resolutionists. They have persuaded him that the best way to advance his cause is to become a martyr to it. It is interesting that when he talks about combining the two ingredients, the resulting “boom” will free him and Justice. You could argue he assumes he will be executed but I think that his “friends” idea was that he should die in the explosion as a suicide bomber. Anders, though, wanted people to understand why he took the action he did, so he made sure he survived long enough to explain them, after which he just sat down and waited to die. Surely a spirit of vengeance would have reacted to the declaration of illegal annulment by wanting revenge on the person who did it? Instead he just sat there passively awaiting his fate. If anything is was Justice influencing him, except that wasn’t the reason he wanted to die. His bombing of the Chantry wasn’t done out of vengeance or desire for justice but as a political statement straight out of the propaganda for the Resolutionists. As such it cannot be blamed on his relationship with Justice but on those who targeted him and manipulated him to their way of thinking, just as is the case in real life.
Interesting, yes., I thought about it as well. I'm not totally excude the Resolutionist influence – seeing he worked for the mage Underground, and I'm sure, the Resolutionists were involved (Resolutionsits aren't Tevinter mages –Leliana recognized them as a branch of the Libertarian faction, but perhaps they have connection), and Tevinter (Venatori?) agents infiltrated. And I don't think Anders works with them, or knows the Tevinter infiltration. 1. He denies, that they needed outsiders' idea for rebellion – so: perhaps doesn't know about them... or just think, this can't help to the rebellion... 2. I never saw he's too much into Tevinter – only the land where the mages are free but we know, he's against the blood magic, and can see, that against the slavery as well: But... PERHAPS, the bomb as idea suggested from a Resolutionists – still: I'm sure he acted alone. Also: yes, he worked peacefully, until Meredith destroyed the Mage Underground. This probably was a desperate moment to him – and I'm sure he also heard, that Meredith sent the Request for the Right of the Annulment, and then Leliana appeared, and spoke about the Divine sent him to snooping around the blood mages and Resolutionists activity. I think he felt, he should act. Seems his whole try to a more peaceful way to a rebellion is failed. I never saw it as some vengeance – I saw a desperate act to pull the problem out of the Circle. ___ Velanna: What sort of atonement would be appropriate? Justice: You have reconsidered, then? Velanna: I am simply curious to hear what you think would be suitable. Justice: Teach them. Show these humans what they are so carelessly destroying. Velanna: And if they do not listen? Justice: Then you have done what you could.*Velanna: It's... worth thinking about. To me this sentence is two-edged... And i don't think, it means: "then you should give up..." Justice isn't like this... So: the way of manifestos, peaceful protests, peaceful works for mages failed, drown in blood. He had done what he could... ...next step. ___ But why I don't think, Justice became a vengeance demon – I think he was always Justice/Vengeance. As Merrill interpret Mythal. And in Awakening, he many times spoke about avenge (his goal is: avenge on the baroness, to give justice to the villagers, and avenge Kristoff. ___ By the way: nobody heard such a big explosion. (Except the Archdemon's one) How it happened? (I would deny, this was his goal). Even if Glavonak the Mad's lyrium bombs worked well (the Chantry's basement can be lyrium deposit.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 19, 2020 7:27:22 GMT
And I don't think Anders works with them, or knows the Tevinter infiltration. I don't think it was possible that he wouldn't have crossed paths with them as individuals, even if he wasn't aware they were actually a co-ordinated group. If he wasn't aware of the organisation, if one of them suggested in conversation that the peaceful path was no longer an option and that perhaps an open attack on the Chantry would get things moving, it would be that much more subtle manipulation. However, there is that comment after Leliana says that "if Kirkwall falls to magic none of us are safe" and he responds "none of you." That seems to suggest that no one in the Chantry will be safe, not just in Kirkwall. Also, it seems so odd to take an action to start a revolution and then not see it through personally but simply trust that the other mages will follow. Now if he knew there was an organised group who were already working that way and would carry on the struggle, then his willingness to become a martyr to the cause is more understandable. One of my main criticisms against Solas and his action against the Evanuris is that apparently he effectively nuked the ruling elite but apparently did nothing to deal with the aftermath and apparently chaos ensued. It would seem that Anders not being there to lead the mages when the rebellion finally happened meant it was managed very badly. I certainly feel the wrong ex Grey Warden ended up leading it. As for the Tevinter connection, I know Fenris can be a bit paranoid but I don't feel he was totally wrong on this. There was a fair bit of Tevinter associated activity in Kirkwall just with the slaver operations. We know from DAI that there was Tevinter influence across the south backed by the Venatori, which had and still does have powerful and wealthy Magisters among its members, so have the resources to fund their cause, which essentially was to undermine various organisations and rulers to create chaos across the southern states, making them ripe for conquest. For that matter, how could Denarius just walk into Kirkwall like he did and openly try and recover Fenris from the Hanged Man? The Templars are meant to be cracking down and yet a Tevinter Magister can just do as he pleases within the city? Even if he was citing diplomatic immunity in being there (is that something in Thedas?), surely the Templars would be keeping a close watch on his activities? They really did seem to have lost their grip on the situation on the streets. I've always maintained that Meredith was cracking down on the wrong mages by being so severe on the mages in the Circle, when the real problems were occurring outside it. On the subject of which, this is the first time I have played a mage Hawke who stands up to her. Previous ones have tended to be very polite and worked with her without question. I had a rogue Hawke who refused to do her bidding at first and then she threatened Bethany to get him to toe the line, which incensed him. This time she simply threatened Hawke directly, making the point that he was an apostate and free only on sufferance by her. Since Anders was with me at the time, it was hardly surprising that his attitude towards the Chantry and Templars would only have hardened as a result. I even let Emil de Lancet go this time. Normally I think an idiot like him should go back to the Circle for his own safety as he clearly can't function properly in the real world. However, Hawke took the view that he wasn't sending anyone back to the Circle and may be sending him out of town would be the making of Emil. Then he told Meredith he was dead. It was clear she didn't believe him and queried the lack of a body (what can I say, fireballs don't leave much evidence) but she let it go for now. Given the number of blood mages we have taken off the streets, I would say with Hawke out of the picture the city would definitely fall to magic and Meredith knows this. Sebastian is being a bit of a snake in the grass. I overheard him suggesting to Fenris they turn in Anders and Merrill to the authorities. Fenris refused and Anders pointed out that the authorities already know about him. Nevertheless Hawke wishes Sebastian would just go back to Starkhaven and has suggested as much, but in more diplomatic terms. On the plus side, Anders can see that I have got a group of nobles on my side. It is a pity none of them seem willing to step up and offer to be Viscount as I would support that. Aidan is politically savvy enough to know that suggesting himself would be a non starter because of his mage status but he could always be the power behind the throne. Anyway, today we're off to see King Alistair.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 19, 2020 10:31:43 GMT
I agree about it I'm sure he knows about the Resolutionists, and knows about there are mages, who will continue the fight, even if he acted alone. Of course, he knew, that he's not alone with this demand: in the Mage Underground he knew many mages and their wishes – and probable he heard about the Gallows and the mages' opinions in the Gallows. I don't really agree, he wanted to be a martyr – intentionally. As you said as well: he doesn't really wants to die, he accepts the death sentence rather (in rivalry, he probably really wants to die, but not because he wants to be a martyr). This martyr thing is rather about, he wants to believe, it was not vain, if he has to die.
I think, while Fenris can be super suspicious, but I think, he's right about it here: we saw, the Venatori tries to infiltrate. So: this is complicated.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 19, 2020 13:30:58 GMT
I don't really agree, he wanted to be a martyr – intentionally "The sooner I die, the sooner my name lives on to inspire generations." That sounds like someone who wants to be a martyr. I've studied all the different responses he gives on the friendship path and if you spare his life he seems genuinely surprised, pleasantly may be, but surprised. He also seems to acknowledge that it would be justice for his crime. The rival path confuses the issue even more because he blames it on the spirit inside of him, whereas on the friendship path he takes full responsibility for his actions. (I think I've got that round the right way). This is what doesn't make sense to me and why it is confusing whether they can still be regarded as two separate identities or not. Obviously if Justice is having an influence then that could be why he just sits there awaiting for sentence to be passed but blaming his actions on the spirit of Vengeance just doesn't make sense if he intends it to be the catalyst to a better future for mages. Vengeance is about revenge for past wrongs not helping others to a better future. Strangely enough you seem to get a similar contradiction in the varied responses from Sebastian. If Anders blames it on Vengeance, Sebastian rightly calls him out on it and says he should take responsibility. However, if you suggest letting him go, Sebastian says they cannot let the abomination run free. I do find the friendship/rivalry metre somewhat confusing when it comes to how companions view things, because it changes it substantially depending on which path you are on, but particularly so in the case of Anders. The only time I rivalled him it was by criticising his merging with Justice rather than opposing mage freedom but if he considers it a bad idea, which he admits on the rival path, why does that make him a rival? I feel the writers ought to be consistent in his view of the matter; either he and Justice are now essentially one person (like Flemeth/Mythal) with the spirit having influenced his outlook but not controlling him or they are separate entities, with the spirit now a demon, vying for control. Anyway, so far as this run is concerned, Anders and Justice are one in my eyes. Anything that Anders does is of his own free will, for better or worse, and blaming it on Vengeance is just a cop out. If he truly believes his action is for the cause of mage freedom, then take responsibility for it.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 19, 2020 18:51:36 GMT
There are many things around Anders/Justice that is vague – if it is intentional (you decide, what is he, there are many clues), then I suppose, as it was possible, the writer did a good work – to make it controversial and vague: he can be explained in many ways. But not excluded, that some things are just inconsistent, without any intention behind them. Here is that thing: he wants to die and be martyr: yes: I know what he said... but not in every case, not even in friendship. If Hawke listen Sebastian, Anders sit back, and just say, he will not deny anyone's right to the justice, and say, that "It was nice to be happy... for a while" – nothing about the martyrdom, and seems he doesn't want to die. (Sorry I cut the video, because I hate it.)
And here is the one what really happened in game: And clearly seems he's HAPPY he didn't die. And he wants to fight against the templars. He says to Hawke, he wants to continue his fight, until every mage is not free, and would be happy if Hawke would his partner in this. I think, the spirit is Justice. And yes, I think, they're merged. We can't make difference between Justice and Anders, because he's both. I found him more honest in friendship – and still horrified from the outcome, and he takes the responsibility. The rivalry is a mess, and Anders is very unstable. Someone said, in rivalry they're less merged: but I rather think, he's in rivalry with Justice (himself!) as well, and this causes the memory losses, because of his mental state, less because of Justice takes him over. He always speaks about what happened, when Justice was in charge, he remembered what happened, always, only he speaks about like he was a guest in his body. In the rivalry, he falls apart – and this can confuse Justice, and I think, he's at least near to be a vengeance demon (why he's able to turn against the mages? But if he's a demon, why don't attack Hawke and the others, and defends himself – he would be able to kill many, and run away... but he did not. Questions...) Anyway, I came to a similar conclusion to yours.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 19, 2020 19:51:48 GMT
Well we've just had the incredible awkward "if you love me you'll trust me" speech. Honestly, Anders does treat Hawke really badly at this point, using emotional blackmail. Even worse he says that whatever he does will not rebound on Hawke. Really Anders, are you really so naïve you think that? It really is excruciating for Aidan at this point. He knows something is off about all this and is really hurt that Anders doesn't confide in him but he won't abandon him. He just really wanted to shout at him that after everything he had seen Hawke do, how can he doubt him? Of course, the real answer is that Anders is afraid that Aidan will try and talk him out of it, failing that stop him altogether. In some ways there is worse to come before he blows up the Chantry because Aidan is going to witness him giving away his most treasured possessions, which is a dead give away he thinks he is going to die.
I still think he went for the wrong target. I get that the Chantry is symbolic but in the immediate situation if he had blown Meredith and her cronies sky high then I doubt anyone would have shed any tears. Elthina is so weak she would be unlikely to do anything serious, particularly as she knows it would only cause more trouble for the city. The nobles wanted Meredith removed, Aveline and her guards wanted Meredith removed, Orsino wanted Meredith removed, even many of her own Templars wanted her removed, so we'd have held a pretty strong hand for having a new Viscount and a free Circle but not in the Gallows, which I think should never have been used in the first place, with the Templars just there to deal with genuine trouble makers with overseas connections. Then if all eyes are on Kirkwall they would have seen a new model for how mages should be treated. Let the Divine try making an Exalted March on the city after that and everyone will see how it really is. Then Anders and I move on to our next place to inspire the free Circle cause. (I've nothing against Circles as such because I feel there does need to be somewhere for mages to train, like in Tevinter, particularly commoner youngsters because nobles could just get in private tutors, but once you have completed your training, then you are free to go back into the community).
As it is we have an escape route because Isabella has already offered us a place on her ship. It is a pity that they cancelled the DLC involving the Exalted March and instead incorporated the mage/Templar war into DAI because it downgraded Anders' contribution to a footnote and a few remarks by people like Varric and Vivienne, with Fiona as the leader of the mages, which if you hadn't read any of the books you would have no idea why? If they hadn't killed off Wynne in a book they could have used her as the leader, which is at least someone you know from the games. Even if people had killed her, because of her spirit, she could come back like Leliana did. The Fiona in DAI didn't even strike me as anything like the Fiona depicted in Asunder, so really she was just some random person who it was hard to understand had ever become the leader of the rebellion.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 19, 2020 22:26:49 GMT
It's such a pity that Orsino was wrong and the mages didn't rise up as a result of what happened in Kirkwall; the Templars just got harsher but I suppose you could argue that the Divine did listen and eventually the rebellion did happen.
Anyway, Aidan spared Anders. He had told him love was the most important thing and he proved it, although he still isn't happy about what Anders did. Still looking on the bright side, at least he won't have to live in Kirkwall any more. Every cloud has a silver lining, until the epilogue to Trespasser that is. I know Varric is Viscount but would he really be able to swing having Anders in the city? I think that the pair of them are off somewhere saving lives or may be helping in the hunt for the Dread Wolf.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 20, 2020 1:10:19 GMT
Well we've just had the incredible awkward "if you love me you'll trust me" speech. Honestly, Anders does treat Hawke really badly at this point, using emotional blackmail. Even worse he says that whatever he does will not rebound on Hawke. Really Anders, are you really so naïve you think that? It really is excruciating for Aidan at this point. He knows something is off about all this and is really hurt that Anders doesn't confide in him but he won't abandon him. He just really wanted to shout at him that after everything he had seen Hawke do, how can he doubt him? Of course, the real answer is that Anders is afraid that Aidan will try and talk him out of it, failing that stop him altogether. In some ways there is worse to come before he blows up the Chantry because Aidan is going to witness him giving away his most treasured possessions, which is a dead give away he thinks he is going to die.
I still think he went for the wrong target. I get that the Chantry is symbolic but in the immediate situation if he had blown Meredith and her cronies sky high then I doubt anyone would have shed any tears. Elthina is so weak she would be unlikely to do anything serious, particularly as she knows it would only cause more trouble for the city. The nobles wanted Meredith removed, Aveline and her guards wanted Meredith removed, Orsino wanted Meredith removed, even many of her own Templars wanted her removed, so we'd have held a pretty strong hand for having a new Viscount and a free Circle but not in the Gallows, which I think should never have been used in the first place, with the Templars just there to deal with genuine trouble makers with overseas connections. Then if all eyes are on Kirkwall they would have seen a new model for how mages should be treated. Let the Divine try making an Exalted March on the city after that and everyone will see how it really is. Then Anders and I move on to our next place to inspire the free Circle cause. (I've nothing against Circles as such because I feel there does need to be somewhere for mages to train, like in Tevinter, particularly commoner youngsters because nobles could just get in private tutors, but once you have completed your training, then you are free to go back into the community).
As it is we have an escape route because Isabella has already offered us a place on her ship. It is a pity that they cancelled the DLC involving the Exalted March and instead incorporated the mage/Templar war into DAI because it downgraded Anders' contribution to a footnote and a few remarks by people like Varric and Vivienne, with Fiona as the leader of the mages, which if you hadn't read any of the books you would have no idea why? If they hadn't killed off Wynne in a book they could have used her as the leader, which is at least someone you know from the games. Even if people had killed her, because of her spirit, she could come back like Leliana did. The Fiona in DAI didn't even strike me as anything like the Fiona depicted in Asunder, so really she was just some random person who it was hard to understand had ever become the leader of the rebellion. A problematic conversation, yes, I can't deny. I don't know, but i can believe, he really think, this is just him, but I feel he really needs a friend, a partner, who support him. If Hawke refuses him, he doesn't break up, so I think, this emotional blackmail was just some desperate requests for confirmation... which may trigger the opposite too, of course, but in my eyes nothing else, just a lame try. The bigger problem is he doesn't say the real reason, only vaguely, if Hawke insists to this. About it will not rebound on Hawke: maybe Justice? Not Hawke did it, so it's not on his head... or just Anders' wish. Or both... I don't think he really wants Hawke involved, but also desperately need someone who with him. Hard to explain, and maybe don't even need. There are many points here we can't explain with logic... 1. Why Anders think, his love would help him cheerfully with that suspicious Tevinter dragonshit potion? And why we don't get a nice answer, if hawke doesn't want him to risk his life? The only answer if Hawke doesn't want it: rude. 2. Why would the rival-Hawke (especially not in romance) to help him to distract Elthina? It's very clear, he doesn't go here to feed the orphaned kitten in the Chantry's basement... This part of the quest is hard, even with a friendly Hawke: because he doesn't tell the whole truth, and looks like shady... and when Hawke tries to question harder, tells, he plans something bloody. So: the whole quest is a mess. *** And why not Meredith? I still think, to kill Meredith wouldn't solve the problem. Maybe nobody loved would cry for her, but Cullen was still loyal at the moment – and after he would see to die his commander, especially by a mage, he wouldn't that nice one whom he met in the inquisition, I'm sure. He needed to see his commander become an "abomination". True, Cullen compared (maybe unintentionally...) Meredith to ULDRED, and said he doesn't see THAT madness in her eyes, as he saw in Uldred's, when he lost his humanity... YET, he added. And right after: he will not question his commander... So: he realized, Meredith's mad, while he still thinks, she's a rightful mad. He needed MORE proof to turn against her... But if Anders would assassinate her, Cullen probably would become mad... it almost happened in Kinloch (the epilogue retconned). And the Divine... she sent Leliana to investigate the Resolutionist presence and the possible infiltrate of Tevinter, and a possibility of a rebellion. PLUS: Meredith already sent the request for the Right of Annulment. And... someone (a mage!) kills her. Seems: everything proved. Perhaps, the Annulment would be justified... at least the danger still here. Justinia wants reforms, it sure. But we also saw: she's able to make compromises for reforms. Like she strengthened Celene's throne but the price was to quell the rebellion in the Alienage. (Maybe i'm not right here, I didn't read the Masqued Empire, and I also heard, Leliana told to Celene something about that she prefers peacefully... so...) She sent Pharamond to study the tranquility for a possible alternative reverse. But she didn't hesitate to make tranquil him again, just because the Lord Seeker requested. I don't deny, Justinia isn't malevolent, but still a politician. And even with the best scenario: a free Circle would be no option at all. And a Viscount has nothing about the Circle: Alistair said: he has no influence in the Circle. Also: where the Circle would move, and why? And Anders didn't know the Divine's plan. Nobody knew, except some people whom she entrusted. Of course, in a normal would this could work. But still not sure, and sure, not in Kirkwall. Kirkwall's situation is very special. There are some scenarios, but I don't see any what would cause less bloodshed here. Like the noble rebellion – if Hawke succeeded (I thought it will go somewhere...) And yes, i would argue, that Anders' launched the avalanche. – he would do it, if he just kills Meredith? I don't think so. *** I don't think, anyone would oppose the free Circles – including Anders. He spoke about the education in the Circles is good (Bethany/Anders banter, Act1), education is good thing. *** And I agree, that it's a shame he became a sidenote, while I'm afraid, about how they would treat him, I just hope, they would respect Hawke's decision (romance, friendship etc), because in the Inquisition it was far not perfect. *** Ralph lost Isabela, so: they should leave Kirkwall without her boat... I don't think, Anders and Hawke goes back to Kirkwall – to live here. But in the near harbor in Ferelden, it's a possibility, so: Hawke can visit Varric, and help him sometimes.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 20, 2020 9:56:08 GMT
Maybe nobody loved would cry for her, but Cullen was still loyal at the moment – and after he would see to die his commander, especially by a mage, he wouldn't that nice one whom he met in the inquisition, I'm sure. He needed to see his commander become an "abomination". When I said take out Meredith, I did say those supporting her as well, so Cullen would be for the chop. Alistair explained that his country is still weak from the Blight so he cannot challenge the Chantry's authority over the Circles because it would give Orlais the perfect excuse to reinvade with Divine sanction. However, there is precedent for a ruler to ignore Chantry dogma on the matter of free mages and that is Nevarra. I have never understood how that situation with the Mortalitasi was allowed to develop when arguably the Chantry was at its most influential stage at this time and what was then just the city state of Nevarra had always been in Orlais sights. There had just been an Exalted March on Starkhaven to oust King Fyruss, who had set himself up with the backing of Tevinter and then his allies annexed the state to Tevinter. Meanwhile around exactly the same time Caspar Pentaghast seizes control of the city of Nevarra and allows his Tevinter mage ally to set up a wholly new death cult. Even king Fyruss never did that. The Mortalitasi became very influential in Nevarran politics and to my mind were given free reign to conduct themselves as they pleased. It is noticeable in Tevinter Nights that they would seem to have maintained their close connection with Tevinter even after the Venatori were ousted from their ranks. So provided the reformers in Kirkwall distanced themselves from the (probably) Tevinter backed Resolutionists, they were in a pretty strong position. To get to them with an army the Divine would either need to cross Nevarran territory with a largely Orlesian army, which would not be viewed favourably by the Nevarrans given their recent history with Orlais, or she would have to take them by sea all the way round to one of the other ports on the Freemarches, because Kirkwall can simply lift the chains to block off their harbour. It might not work but it would be worth a shot, given there was a large proportion of the population who wanted the Templars out of their city and to recover their own autonomy, not to mention the fact that if it weren't for the mages, they would be currently living under the Arishok. But we also saw: she's able to make compromises for reforms. Like she strengthened Celene's throne but the price was to quell the rebellion in the Alienage. (Maybe i'm not right here, I didn't read the Masqued Empire, and I also heard, Leliana told to Celene something about that she prefers peacefully... so...) She sent Pharamond to study the tranquility for a possible alternative reverse. But she didn't hesitate to make tranquil him again, just because the Lord Seeker requested. I don't deny, Justinia isn't malevolent, but still a politician. I do not deny Justinia was a politician, which is why I was suggesting using politics to achieve our aims. If Kirkwall had a non-mage Viscount, who had peacefully restored order to the city (apart from when dealing with Meredith and her cronies)and had a good relationship with the First Enchanter, it would be very difficult for her to justify an Exalted March, without making every ruler in Thedas wary of her and seek ways to expel the Chantry from their country. Personally, I think Cassandra was right and Leliana had rose-tinted spectacles on where Justinia was concerned. Why had she even laid down plans for forming an Inquisition if she didn't intend using it to impose her will? She ignored the one good reason for having Templars around when authorising Pharamond's research, because what he was doing was dangerous and needed careful monitoring, even more so because Tranquil would not have the same fear of the consequences to temper their actions. Then her reward for Pharamond following her orders was to order him tranquil again. I also thought it shocking that she basically said to Celene that she would deal with the mage/Templar situation, which was not yet open war, if Celene dealt with the elves. In other words, even without Gaspard pushing her, Celene was being told to put down the rebellion by the Divine. How did she imagine this would happen except by violent means? Of course, if Justinia knew the truth about why the rebellion happened in the first place, which if her agents were doing their job properly she should have known, then what she should have been doing was calling for justice for the elven merchant who was murdered in cold blood. I also could not understand why she didn't condemn Gaspard for insulting the memory of Andraste with a salacious play for political purposes. Now if you follow Leliana's advice in the Wicked Hearts quest, then you let Florianne assassinate Celene and then make Gaspard the puppet of Briala. So I feel that Leliana did get revenge on both of them for their actions but I'm fairly certain that is not the sort of advice that Justinia would have given, nor would she have advocated for mages being totally free of Chantry or Circles (the main flaw in Leliana's actions as Divine is that she just leaves the education of young mages to chance). One thing, though, that bugged me in both DAO and DA2 is the Templars calling your gift of magic a curse. Why are you never allowed to challenge them on this? Why aren't you able to say to Meredith and Cullen that it is a gift of the maker, as it quite clearly states in the Chant of Light, which is what he wants used for the benefit of everyone, so in viewing it as a curse and preventing mages from using their magic for the good of others, they are in fact the ones who are opposing the Maker. Anders does make these points at various stages but he never explicitly links his arguments to what is written in the holy texts. I would at every opportunity not just in private but in public too because it is clear the Chantry have ignored the will of the Maker and in fact even their founder, Drakon, in the way they treat mages.
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