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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 20, 2020 20:37:00 GMT
It has also occurred to me that a mage Hawke who sides with Meredith is essentially Vivienne and that in a way it is foreshadowing the possibility that she might end up Divine. I still think the only good part about doing that is seeing all the Templars bowing down before a mage and imaging Fenris' head exploding at the sight. OMG I'm back in Tevinter.
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LadyofNemesis
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Sept 20, 2020 21:03:00 GMT
That is a wonderful response from Isabella. Elthina does sound more like the Qun in her justification for using the Gallows as a Circle. We waste nothing, the Chantry found a use for a redundant building that clearly no one else wanted because of the former horrors associated with it. Just the place to put mages that you fear might be possessed. Somewhere there was so much suffering and death the Veil has to be paper thin. You might even think they wanted the mages to get possessed so they could kill them off. actually...Aeonar is mentioned as such a place as well
a place where the veil is so thin, possession is easy. They put mages there that are to evil for the Circle, but have not been turned tranquil in fact...Lily (Jowan's one time girlfriend) was send there, and in WoT2 she writes a journal for herself to remind herself who she is, and of the horrors that occur inside Aeonar she also mentions events that happen just before the conclave, and that Seekers who arrived at the structure just found it...empty, no one left inside, and no signs of violence. I can only imagine what happened to the people inside
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 20, 2020 21:18:46 GMT
They put mages there that are to evil for the Circle, but have not been turned tranquil in fact...Lily (Jowan's one time girlfriend) was send there, and in WoT2 she writes a journal for herself to remind herself who she is, and of the horrors that occur inside Aeonar What is so tragic about Lily in particular is that she isn't even a mage. She is just someone who fell in love with a blood mage and as a result apparently she could be potentially possessed. So just like with Keran in DA2, apparently the solution is to quarantine them for an indefinite length of time and provided they show no signs of possession they may be set free. One assumes they work on the basis that eventually the demon will get bored with nothing to do and show itself. Yet according to Anders the solution is quite simple, you attack them sufficiently to make the demon show itself. Cullen even knows this because it is what he does with Wilmod. At least I think that is why he was beating him up out in the wilds. I have to admit that I found Lily's story really upsetting, both the fact that after 10 years she was still locked up in Aeonar, a prison where they put the worst mages when she wasn't a mage and wasn't really guilty of anything except falling in love, then it is hinted she probably died horribly at the end of it. So it is not just mages that the Templars treat appallingly. However, Anders wasn't lying when he says that you never dared show affection for someone because they would use it against you.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 20, 2020 21:37:16 GMT
They put mages there that are to evil for the Circle, but have not been turned tranquil in fact...Lily (Jowan's one time girlfriend) was send there, and in WoT2 she writes a journal for herself to remind herself who she is, and of the horrors that occur inside Aeonar What is so tragic about Lily in particular is that she isn't even a mage. She is just someone who fell in love with a blood mage and as a result apparently she could be potentially possessed. So just like with Keran in DA2, apparently the solution is to quarantine them for an indefinite length of time and provided they show no signs of possession they may be set free. One assumes they work on the basis that eventually the demon will get bored with nothing to do and show itself. Yet according to Anders the solution is quite simple, you attack them sufficiently to make the demon show itself. Cullen even knows this because it is what he does with Wilmod. At least I think that is why he was beating him up out in the wilds. I have to admit that I found Lily's story really upsetting, both the fact that after 10 years she was still locked up in Aeonar, a prison where they put the worst mages when she wasn't a mage and wasn't really guilty of anything except falling in love, then it is hinted she probably died horribly at the end of it. So it is not just mages that the Templars treat appallingly. However, Anders wasn't lying when he says that you never dared show affection for someone because they would use it against you. This reminds me to the Arvaarad in the Shepherding Wolves. The one who said, doesn't want to listen a mage, because he will be cursed as well. "You spewed your words at me like a demon trying to poison my control..."
(I love Hawke's answer here, he's not a danger, if he doesn't chose to be...)
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LadyofNemesis
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Sept 20, 2020 21:47:58 GMT
They put mages there that are to evil for the Circle, but have not been turned tranquil in fact...Lily (Jowan's one time girlfriend) was send there, and in WoT2 she writes a journal for herself to remind herself who she is, and of the horrors that occur inside Aeonar What is so tragic about Lily in particular is that she isn't even a mage. She is just someone who fell in love with a blood mage and as a result apparently she could be potentially possessed. So just like with Keran in DA2, apparently the solution is to quarantine them for an indefinite length of time and provided they show no signs of possession they may be set free. One assumes they work on the basis that eventually the demon will get bored with nothing to do and show itself. Yet according to Anders the solution is quite simple, you attack them sufficiently to make the demon show itself. Cullen even knows this because it is what he does with Wilmod. At least I think that is why he was beating him up out in the wilds. I have to admit that I found Lily's story really upsetting, both the fact that after 10 years she was still locked up in Aeonar, a prison where they put the worst mages when she wasn't a mage and wasn't really guilty of anything except falling in love, then it is hinted she probably died horribly at the end of it. So it is not just mages that the Templars treat appallingly. However, Anders wasn't lying when he says that you never dared show affection for someone because they would use it against you. yeah...according to the codex and the part in WoT it says that people who've been in contact with blood mages are sometimes send to that place as well, so...yes...people like Lily
Know what always gets me? Hawke's comment during Anders' recruitment quest telling him to kill Karl in order to show the man mercy Hawke: I'd rather die then be tranquil...help him / my sister calls being tranquil a fate worse then death, give him peace I mean it's so sad...even more so when you later learn the pair were lovers at one point
Hm...that "attack it in order for the demon to show itself" also seems to be in effect if you decide to kill Connor in DAO... I mean, if you decide to ignore Connor and try to enter Eamon's room it becomes angry and attacks you...it's not the same, but in both instances it shows itself when it feels threatened.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 20, 2020 21:56:12 GMT
They put mages there that are to evil for the Circle, but have not been turned tranquil in fact...Lily (Jowan's one time girlfriend) was send there, and in WoT2 she writes a journal for herself to remind herself who she is, and of the horrors that occur inside Aeonar What is so tragic about Lily in particular is that she isn't even a mage. She is just someone who fell in love with a blood mage and as a result apparently she could be potentially possessed. So just like with Keran in DA2, apparently the solution is to quarantine them for an indefinite length of time and provided they show no signs of possession they may be set free. One assumes they work on the basis that eventually the demon will get bored with nothing to do and show itself. Yet according to Anders the solution is quite simple, you attack them sufficiently to make the demon show itself. Cullen even knows this because it is what he does with Wilmod. At least I think that is why he was beating him up out in the wilds. I have to admit that I found Lily's story really upsetting, both the fact that after 10 years she was still locked up in Aeonar, a prison where they put the worst mages when she wasn't a mage and wasn't really guilty of anything except falling in love, then it is hinted she probably died horribly at the end of it. So it is not just mages that the Templars treat appallingly. However, Anders wasn't lying when he says that you never dared show affection for someone because they would use it against you. About that the mages in the Circle barely dared to show affection, is painful yes... and we experienced as Surana/Amell a little part of it... Irving asked the warde (his favourite apprentice!) to betray Jowan, who is the Warden friend. We can find a Journal-entry, what proves, that Irving admired Uldred's ability to manipulate the apprentices and uncover the blood mages... and worked with him to make trap them... And Uldred sacrificed his apprentices, whom he judged expendable... Betrayal, nobody can trust nobody, and like even the walls watching. (And if you listen the apprentices, and the blood mage during the Broken Circle, they will tell, they feel that) And they lived in this environment. But Anders tried: since he befriended and fell in love with Karl, he didn't escape until they sent Karl to Kirkwall. (Also: it mentioned in Asunder, that Rhis and Adrian were close, but didn't start a relationship because it's risky – true, I read the book long ago, so maybe i don't remember correctly)
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2020 22:21:56 GMT
and as I say what would a Dalish know about that? I guess on on one hand, a Dalish would just absolutely across the board not trust a Templar. I've roleplayed a Dalish Cullen Romance that falls for him despite her better judgement, rationalizing that he's given up the Templar Order as the bad thing it was. Anyway, I RP'd it wasn't even on their radar as a true consideration, immediately dismissed at the first suggestion. I've additionally RP'd that you think you still have plenty of time to talk to the Templars and this Time MAgic is super priority- like it's almost no longer an issue of whether you're seeking allies, but that you need to stop the time magic problem NOW.
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Now stealin' more kidz.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 20, 2020 22:33:10 GMT
With regards to Varric, I have seen him being called a "centrist" (possibly from north american political perspective), and I tend to agree with that notion in that he comes across as one of these people who vehemently insist to be "moderate", while not noticing or willfully ignoring their slip into supporting especially authoritarian viewpoints
Being forced to "have an opinion" seems pretty standard practice with regards to the Chantry's doctrine on mages and (contemporary) Andrastianism in general. Either you agree and submit or you are hunted down and "brought to justice".
That is a wonderful response from Isabella. Elthina does sound more like the Qun in her justification for using the Gallows as a Circle. We waste nothing, the Chantry found a use for a redundant building that clearly no one else wanted because of the former horrors associated with it. Just the place to put mages that you fear might be possessed. Somewhere there was so much suffering and death the Veil has to be paper thin. You might even think they wanted the mages to get possessed so they could kill them off. I'm generally pretty pessimistic, so I'm surprised that it isn't just my brain to come up with that. I mean, after we learn why the Gallows was designed like that, why not taking at least some of these statues down.
Heck, even Sebastian gets it, even if is his choice of words is rather... disgusting in part.
"The Gallows is rather dreadful, isn't it? Maybe the mages here would be more tractable if they were housed somewhere else." They put mages there that are to evil for the Circle, but have not been turned tranquil in fact...Lily (Jowan's one time girlfriend) was send there, and in WoT2 she writes a journal for herself to remind herself who she is, and of the horrors that occur inside Aeonar What is so tragic about Lily in particular is that she isn't even a mage. She is just someone who fell in love with a blood mage and as a result apparently she could be potentially possessed. So just like with Keran in DA2, apparently the solution is to quarantine them for an indefinite length of time and provided they show no signs of possession they may be set free. One assumes they work on the basis that eventually the demon will get bored with nothing to do and show itself. Yet according to Anders the solution is quite simple, you attack them sufficiently to make the demon show itself. Cullen even knows this because it is what he does with Wilmod. At least I think that is why he was beating him up out in the wilds. I have to admit that I found Lily's story really upsetting, both the fact that after 10 years she was still locked up in Aeonar, a prison where they put the worst mages when she wasn't a mage and wasn't really guilty of anything except falling in love, then it is hinted she probably died horribly at the end of it. So it is not just mages that the Templars treat appallingly. However, Anders wasn't lying when he says that you never dared show affection for someone because they would use it against you. I found it weird that if we do not test Keran and go the "can't take any chances" route, Cullen just kicks him out if I recall right. So much about the glorified templar vigilance. I guess all cells were already occupied by mages.
Doesn't Cullen say that he wanted to threaten Wilmod into making a confession? In that case, it comes across as more of failed attempt at playing "evil cop" (also looking at you, Cassandra) or simply torture-for-info.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 20, 2020 22:45:01 GMT
With regards to Varric, I have seen him being called a "centrist" (possibly from north american political perspective), and I tend to agree with that notion in that he comes across as one of these people who vehemently insist to be "moderate", while not noticing ot willfully ignoring their slip into supporting especially authoritarian viewpoints
Being forced to "have an opinion" seems pretty standard practice with regards to the Chantry's doctrine on mages and (contemporary) Andrastianism in general. Either you agree and submit or you are hunted down and "brought to justice".
That is a wonderful response from Isabella. Elthina does sound more like the Qun in her justification for using the Gallows as a Circle. We waste nothing, the Chantry found a use for a redundant building that clearly no one else wanted because of the former horrors associated with it. Just the place to put mages that you fear might be possessed. Somewhere there was so much suffering and death the Veil has to be paper thin. You might even think they wanted the mages to get possessed so they could kill them off. I'm generally pretty pessimistic, so I'm surprised that it isn't just my brain to come up with that. I mean, after we learn why the Gallows was designed like that, why not taking at least some of these statues down.
Heck, even Sebastian gets it, even if is his choice of words is rather... disgusting in part.
"The Gallows is rather dreadful, isn't it? Maybe the mages here would be more tractable if they were housed somewhere else." What is so tragic about Lily in particular is that she isn't even a mage. She is just someone who fell in love with a blood mage and as a result apparently she could be potentially possessed. So just like with Keran in DA2, apparently the solution is to quarantine them for an indefinite length of time and provided they show no signs of possession they may be set free. One assumes they work on the basis that eventually the demon will get bored with nothing to do and show itself. Yet according to Anders the solution is quite simple, you attack them sufficiently to make the demon show itself. Cullen even knows this because it is what he does with Wilmod. At least I think that is why he was beating him up out in the wilds. I have to admit that I found Lily's story really upsetting, both the fact that after 10 years she was still locked up in Aeonar, a prison where they put the worst mages when she wasn't a mage and wasn't really guilty of anything except falling in love, then it is hinted she probably died horribly at the end of it. So it is not just mages that the Templars treat appallingly. However, Anders wasn't lying when he says that you never dared show affection for someone because they would use it against you. I found it weird that if we do not test Keran and go the "can't take any chances" route, Cullen just kicks him out if I recall right. So much about the glorified templar vigilance. I guess all cells were already occupied by mages.
Doesn't Cullen say that he wanted to threaten Wilmod into making a confession? In that case, it comes across as more of failed attempt at playing "evil cop" (also looking at you, Cassandra) or simply torture-for-info. Heck, even Sebastian gets it, even if is his choice of words is rather... disgusting in part. "The Gallows is rather dreadful, isn't it? Maybe the mages here would be more tractable if they were housed somewhere else." Good point about Sebastian here.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 21, 2020 11:42:05 GMT
Doesn't Cullen say that he wanted to threaten Wilmod into making a confession? In that case, it comes across as more of failed attempt at playing "evil cop" (also looking at you, Cassandra) or simply torture-for-info. Yes, may be you are right about this. I seem to recall my purple Hawke saying something along the lines that he thought it was only mages they treated like that so it's nice to see he's branching out. Cullen is a pretty terrible person throughout DA2 but just because he has a change of heart when Meredith goes completely crazy, apparently he is a reformed person. Good point about Sebastian here. I agree. I don't recall getting that comment from Sebastian so probably someone else took precedence when I took him to the Gallows with me. I used to think Sebastian was okay but I've revised my opinion of him after my latest play through and subsequent research. That phrasing "mages would be more tractable". It's the same idea as Cullen's "they're aren't people like your and I". They regard mages as little better than wild animals that need to be controlled. (And I don't like wild animals being caged up either). It is awful, as is the general attitude to mages who commit suicide that is recorded in Orsino's biography: "One less to worry about." Their treatment is inhumane. Yet Sebastian implies that Anders has been overreacting when we discover the "tranquil solution" was rejected. May be something that extreme was ruled out but in a way it was only what such de-humanising of the mages would eventually lead to. In Asunder the Divine had some conscience about the mages but she was still looking for ways to control them that would leave her conscience clear on the matter. She had been hoping Pharamond's research would show a way they could deny mages their ability without removing their emotions. Some mages might welcome this to be free of the burden, which is how they persuade them to agree to voluntary tranquillity in the first place, but it still suggests that magic is a curse to be done away with, in total contradiction of what the Chant of Light actually says.
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Post by Rascoth on Sept 21, 2020 12:28:51 GMT
Speaking of Tranquility, I'm wondering how much we truly know about it.
DAO presented it as a way to cut off a mage from the Fade with a help of lyrium brand, rendering them emotionless. DA2 added that connection to the Fade can be re-established and that you can make someone Tranquil without a brand by killing them in the Fade. Which makes me question how effective lyrium brands are, considering they can be bypassed. Asunder proved it can be reversed altogether. DAI added even more information, with non-mage Tranquils that got their Tranquility reversed. All that without lyrium brands, at least that we know of.
Which makes me question a purpose of lyrium brand as a whole. On one hand it'd allign with what Cole says about Templars, that lyrium makes them reach for something older, thus making no room for magic. If lyrium brands were working like that, I'd only question their lack of emotions. But with how Tranquility can be reversed/temporarily stopped, it makes me wonder why lyrium brands are really there. Do they disappear after Tranquility is broken? I don't remember that being mentioned. But if they stay... how come they don't make someone Tranquil again, if that was really their role? Considering the shape of lyrium brand, would it be that surprising if it's main purpose was being a reminder for other mages?
There's also a fact that vigil (aka breaking Tranquility) apparently makes Seekers immune to possession, why it's not the same for mages? Are there different types of Tranquility?
And I'm not touching the fact that two Tranquils we meet in DAI express wanting something. Where does the line for their supposedly emotionless state lie?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2020 14:26:55 GMT
Speaking of Tranquility, I'm wondering how much we truly know about it.
DAO presented it as a way to cut off a mage from the Fade with a help of lyrium brand, rendering them emotionless. DA2 added that connection to the Fade can be re-established and that you can make someone Tranquil without a brand by killing them in the Fade. Which makes me question how effective lyrium brands are, considering they can be bypassed. Asunder proved it can be reversed altogether. DAI added even more information, with non-mage Tranquils that got their Tranquility reversed. All that without lyrium brands, at least that we know of.
Which makes me question a purpose of lyrium brand as a whole. On one hand it'd allign with what Cole says about Templars, that lyrium makes them reach for something older, thus making no room for magic. If lyrium brands were working like that, I'd only question their lack of emotions. But with how Tranquility can be reversed/temporarily stopped, it makes me wonder why lyrium brands are really there. Do they disappear after Tranquility is broken? I don't remember that being mentioned. But if they stay... how come they don't make someone Tranquil again, if that was really their role? Considering the shape of lyrium brand, would it be that surprising if it's main purpose was being a reminder for other mages?
There's also a fact that vigil (aka breaking Tranquility) apparently makes Seekers immune to possession, why it's not the same for mages? Are there different types of Tranquility?
And I'm not touching the fact that two Tranquils we meet in DAI express wanting something. Where does the line for their supposedly emotionless state lie? Many problems here about the tranquility. The main problem is: we don't know how can work an emotionless person. And the measurement. The feelings... Pharamond speaks about feelings – Karl as well, but just after they woke up from that meaningless, "crystal-clear silence" as Pharamond described it: “ Karl spoke about that the music, colours disappeared and the Templars made him puppet – but when he was Tranquil again, he didn't even understand why Anders is upset... And: when the group met with him, he said, that he was rebellious as Anders, but he's not anymore, and Anders will be not upset as Tranquil... Seems someting is missing to them... they remember... but as a Tranquil, they don't understand what and why... this means nothing – still: missing. We also know: DA2, Gallows, if I remember correctly? That some Tranquil smiles, and not because they feel good, happy, but because they know, the smile is positive, and they see, people look at them strangely... it bothers them? Or some courtesy? Or it just a survival instinct: if they don't fear from us, we are safe? About the "puppet" status: not only Karl said that, but Alrik as well, to Ella, that she will do anything he wants... And there was a tranquil in The Gallows' courtyard, who told her lover (who asked her remember him), that their relationship was improper, and now, she's Alrik's already... We know: a Tranquil would choose the obedience... (survival instinct), but also, the Origins and also the Asunder said: they have free will (Evangeline said: if they would find a logical reason to rebel, they would be terrifying). But if they have survival instinct – why Owain just cleaned the depository, and the Tranquil in the hall were we fought with the sloth(?) (Broken Circle still), just stood unflinchingly... We can explain: they knew (rather assumed), the demons aren't a danger to them – but here were mages, who summoned demons into Templars, also: seems the chaos spared nothing and no one ... – except Greagoir's group and the vendors... (now I don't speak about the reverse of the Tranquility here, because this is retconned...) So: interesting question – and nothing is sure about them. Whatever is the whole truth, I would ban the whole practice against mages – Seekers seems useful, so: perhaps... especially because of the ritual seems different there is a prepare phasis etc, I think the Tranquility in the Circles is a modified version. By the way Seekers... we know about one mage, who failed (remained tranquil), and they didn't try more... so: we don't know... And what is that fail? The Faith was not able/refuses to touch them? Or? What is that fail of Seeker-aspirants? (Probably if they fail, the others kill them... or? They die?) If the Faith refuses to touch this mage... why did? S/he had not enough faith? Or the Faith touched, just the Tranquil-mage didn't react? Then how they will reverse the tranquility...? What is exactly that Pharamond discovered? And this was why Lambert wanted to make him Tranquil again? Or simple paranoia? Or why just didn't kill him, as he asked?
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 21, 2020 14:59:16 GMT
To be honest I think the whole tranquillity issue is now a mess. It's like they had all these ideas for plotlines but didn't really think them through.
Why does being tranquil make the mage unattractive to demons? You assume it is the lack of emotion but demons can easily possess animals (some degree of emotion), trees (no emotion that I am aware of) and corpses (surely any emotion left with the soul of the deceased), so if there are demons crossing over into the Waking World, as they were in Kinloch Hold, why do they ignore the tranquil?
In DA2 it made sense that you could briefly by-pass the tranquillity with Justice being to the forefront in the battle but the effect was only temporary because Justice then receded and the lyrium brand was still in place. Except, if simply the presence of a spirit/demon close by could by-pass the lyrium brand, surely every tranquil in Kinloch Hold should have been reversed simply because the place was crawling with demons, so was Owain constantly going back and forth between tranquil and non-tranquil state?
The Seeker rite added a whole new layer to this. As I understood Ameridan, they came up with the idea because it stops the person being possessed or controlled with blood magic. Very useful if you are going up against rogue mages and demons. Naturally they thought it would also be useful to prevent mages from becoming possessed but the only mage they tried it on was rendered tranquil instead, because I assume they failed the test of faith. The Seekers then promised Ameridan it would never be used as a punishment for mages. Some hope.
Now according to Cassandra she had no idea until she read the Seeker manual that she had effectively been made tranquil. Previously she just described her vigil and the moment of religious ecstasy when the faith spirit touched her mind. So you would think it was a self imposed emptying of emotion (which is how religious mystics often describe it in real life) but she seemed to have read that it is actually imposed on the individual and then the spirit encouraged (how I don't know) to touch their mind. I don't understand how it would have anything to do with faith if that was the case.
Then after being touched they have all these Seeker powers, including the power to turn lyrium to flame in the body of both Templars and mages, which sounds an awful lot like the blood magic spell, blood wound. So what is going on with this non mage gaining the ability to both resist possession and mimic mage spells? I can only think it is the spirit that bonded with them. So are all Seekers now possessed? Or does the spirit follow them round and maintain a sort of nominal contact without actual possession?
Also, if it is the result of a faith spirit making contact, what is to prevent people of other faiths getting the same powers provided they have strong enough faith to attract the spirit? Theoretically that should mean you could have Dark Seekers that service the Old Gods or Dalish Seekers who honour their respective gods. Also, why can't a mage be devout enough? Wynne was because it was a faith spirit that revived her. So did the Seekers deliberately withhold the information that it could be used to help mages protect themselves from possession because they didn't want them to get the other powers as well? Just because it failed with one mage, why should it fail for all?
So the writers need to get their lore straight. You can't claim never to prove the existence of the Maker if the only one group of devout beings gets the abilities and all other devotees, whether mages or non-mages are excluded.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 21, 2020 16:39:48 GMT
Doesn't Cullen say that he wanted to threaten Wilmod into making a confession? In that case, it comes across as more of failed attempt at playing "evil cop" (also looking at you, Cassandra) or simply torture-for-info. Yes, may be you are right about this. I seem to recall my purple Hawke saying something along the lines that he thought it was only mages they treated like that so it's nice to see he's branching out. Cullen is a pretty terrible person throughout DA2 but just because he has a change of heart when Meredith goes completely crazy, apparently he is a reformed person.
Cullen makes this comment about scaring Wilmod in an investigate style dialogue option, so I guess it is generic.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2020 21:16:59 GMT
I watched my video about the Tranquility quest... it's worse than i remembered. As a tranquil, Karl said to him, they just made an example with him of know, how else will mages ever to master themselves, and that Anders will understand... (as tranquil, I suppose...), as soon as the Templars will teach him to control himself... (5:30)
And as he woke up for a while, seems he was a totally different person!
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 22, 2020 20:50:43 GMT
And as he woke up for a while, seems he was a totally different person! This is what is so peculiar about the way it is presented in DA2. In DAO we read the journal of someone who was made tranquil voluntarily. They seem to remember everything of their former life as a mage and why they wanted to be a tranquil. Even if you argue the majority was written before the rite was actually carried out, the last part is not. They know who they are, what they were and what they are now. If you said to them, would you want to be a mage again, I think they genuinely would say no, not because they do not remember but because they do. Presumably they were calm when the rite was carried out and not resisting it. Contrast this with Karl. Could it have affected him differently because it was forced on him? At the moment they branded him he must have been fighting and fearful, so is that why he seems to lose all sense of self? David Gaider maintained that tranquil still have free will. Yet it seems to me that if Karl goes from being a rebel to not only acknowledging that was why they did it to him but accepting it is a good thing, something profound happened to him, either in being made tranquil or afterwards, so that he no longer has a will of his own. Even if he no longer can feel affection from Anders why does he not remember that he has some loyalty towards him? Then after he has begged us to end his life, why does he not remember this a few seconds later after he has lost his emotions? Why are you looking at me like that? Surely, he would understand that he had just asked us to kill him? Contrast this with the mage, Madox, who was the one who Samson smuggled letters for and was made tranquil when they were caught. He remained loyal to Samson as a tranquil, clearly remembering that he owed something to Samson or was in some way connected that he should be loyal to him. Madox was presumably made tranquil against his will and so likely experienced all the emotions that Karl would have done the moment the rite was carried out. So why was he so different to Karl in his loyalties?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2020 21:40:04 GMT
And as he woke up for a while, seems he was a totally different person! This is what is so peculiar about the way it is presented in DA2. In DAO we read the journal of someone who was made tranquil voluntarily. They seem to remember everything of their former life as a mage and why they wanted to be a tranquil. Even if you argue the majority was written before the rite was actually carried out, the last part is not. They know who they are, what they were and what they are now. If you said to them, would you want to be a mage again, I think they genuinely would say no, not because they do not remember but because they do. Presumably they were calm when the rite was carried out and not resisting it. Contrast this with Karl. Could it have affected him differently because it was forced on him? At the moment they branded him he must have been fighting and fearful, so is that why he seems to lose all sense of self? David Gaider maintained that tranquil still have free will. Yet it seems to me that if Karl goes from being a rebel to not only acknowledging that was why they did it to him but accepting it is a good thing, something profound happened to him, either in being made tranquil or afterwards, so that he no longer has a will of his own. Even if he no longer can feel affection from Anders why does he not remember that he has some loyalty towards him? Then after he has begged us to end his life, why does he not remember this a few seconds later after he has lost his emotions? Why are you looking at me like that? Surely, he would understand that he had just asked us to kill him? Contrast this with the mage, Madox, who was the one who Samson smuggled letters for and was made tranquil when they were caught. He remained loyal to Samson as a tranquil, clearly remembering that he owed something to Samson or was in some way connected that he should be loyal to him. Madox was presumably made tranquil against his will and so likely experienced all the emotions that Karl would have done the moment the rite was carried out. So why was he so different to Karl in his loyalties? I hated the Tranquility in DAO too, and Keili was shocking, but the tranquility is an absolute mess. As you wrote before as well. Seems in one hand, on they want to show it as some terrible thing – and right after as a solution of your every sadness and fear, and a medicament of your nervousness and mental problem... You'll be content, just take the brand... you will not fear and dangerous, and can make shiny stuff and maintain your Circle what give you this mercy... My opinion this is cruel as fuck. Also they probably remeber. Karl as well... but can't do anything with that. Probably as a tranquil doesn't see anything attractive in the freedom, when he gets food and bed. He prefers the life over the death. Anders' behaviour, his behaviour doesn't make sense. But Maddox... he went with Samson, because he was who offered him that – probably the Circle was a mess? I don't know. To me: it doesn't make real sense, especially, that still seems: he probably lost his logic and moral as well wenn he choose to help him. As non-Tranquil, he would do it as well? I doubt: Samson described him as some good guy (shot story). (I just try to explain... but it hard. I just see that they ruin their mind – why this is more acceptable than if a blood mage does it...?)
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 22, 2020 23:25:07 GMT
Seems in one hand, on they want to show it as some terrible thing – and right after as a solution of your every sadness and fear, and a medicament of your nervousness and mental problem... You'll be content, just take the brand... you will not fear and dangerous, and can make shiny stuff and maintain your Circle what give you this mercy... My opinion this is cruel as fuck. Yes, in that regard, Tranquility is similar to suicide for a mental issue - it does not solve problems, it ends them. Problems that were in most cases created or exacerbated by the circle's atmosphere.
Helisma Derington from DAI also struck me as having some memory issues. "I remember being fond of animals. I don't remember why." Oh, and as far as the brand is concerned at least physically, I very much doubt that it has to look like a Chantry sunburst. That leaves... being a mark of ownership essentially, and I thought the sunburst crotch guards on the female robes were an unfortunate implication.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 23, 2020 12:31:32 GMT
My opinion this is cruel as fuck. I agree. To be honest it is no different to Qunari using qamek automatically on bas mages and collaring, sewing the mouth shut and using a cattle prod on those who have been brained washed into accepting it by the Qun. It is dehumanising and just like the Qun they then find a use for them that benefits the people that have done this to them. Given the majority of the funding for the Circles comes from the enchanted items made by the Tranquil, they have a vested interest in making sure they keep their numbers up. Then everyone, including the Chantry, abandoned the majority of them when the Circles fell and they ended up being sacrificed by the Venatori to make those awful oculara, a crime for which no one was ever called to account for. I cannot believe that no one knew what was going on. Also something I wish someone in game had pointed out at some point, it is effectively damning the Tranquil to the Void according to the faith professed by the Chantry because they can no longer connect with the Maker. That's in the Chant of Light. "From the Fade I crafted you and to the Fade you shall return each night in dreams, that you may always remember Me." I do actually object to the idea that even if someone can't express emotion that makes them less than human because there are people who are affected this way but putting that aside, clearly everyone in Thedas regards the Tranquil as non people, after all that is what the Inquisitor objects to with Solas when he says modern people seem no more than tranquil to him. So the choice the Chantry seems to give mages is either be treated like a wild animal, at least if you are from a commoner background, or rendered a non-person. No wonder so many of them commit suicide or succumb to demon possession. The idea that mages are incapable of policing themselves is rendered rather ridiculous by DA2 if Hawke is a mage as they, Anders and Merrill do more to keep rogue mages under control than the entire Templar army stationed in the Gallows. Then after the defeat of the Arishok, Meredith effectively imposes martial law by the Templars/Chantry, denying the people a secular ruler who might keep them in check. They terrorise families for sheltering their mage relatives, imprison and abuse the Circle mages and Meredith even threatens Hawke when they are the one person people in the city actually trust, which she knows because that is why she is blackmailing them. Yet Varric thinks supporting the Templars is protecting his way of life. Get real, Varric, if Anders hadn't blown up the Chantry, once Meredith had got permission for the Annulment anyway (because that is what she had applied for), once the mages were dead, who might she have turned her attention to next? All those people who didn't turn up for services in the Chantry on Holy Days probably. That would mean you Varric. Plus Divine Justinia was considering an Exalted March on Kirkwall. As Giselle points out concerning the Exalted March on the Dales. An Exalted March isn't really truly one unless more than one nation supplies the troops but what it does mean is that Kirkwall would be under attack from one or more nations with the approval of the Divine. My money would have been on Celene offering her cousin Gaspard's services along with his Chevaliers because Orlais would have been only too happy to annex Kirkwall once more under the pretext of doing the Maker's work. Looked at in that light, actually Anders saved Kirkwall from this fate by bringing matters to a head when he did rather than letting them get progressively worse so the Exalted March was launched. (Effectively that was what Sebastian was attempting to do when he attacked Kirkwall, the only difference being the Divine was dead so he didn't have her blessing but I wouldn't mind betting he had the support of the Chantries in Starkhaven and Tantervale - apparently a really hard-line religions city state)
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 23, 2020 12:50:27 GMT
Also I've been considering all that Anders says about the relationship between him and Justice at the beginning and he makes it quite clear that Justice only really comes out when Anders is agitated and really angry about something. When that happens Anders is not really under control and does have a problem remembering exactly what happened.
So why did the writer try and imply on the rivalry path that somehow Anders was a passive victim of Justice's desire for vengeance when he planted the bomb in the Chantry. I think you've referred to this before, Catilina. When Hawke says to him there is still time for him to stop whatever it is he has done and Anders appears to have second thoughts, the reason Justice appears and tells Hawke to back off is because Anders is very conflicted at that moment between what he wants to do and his relationship with Hawke. Justice senses this disturbance in Anders and that is why he comes to his rescue but it is not a case of Justice forcing Anders to do anything he does not really want to, just protecting him from the anguish he feels in going against Hawke. Does that make sense? It is the only way I feel I can explain it that doesn't make his relationship with Justice on the rivalry path seem a total contradiction to what Anders maintained back in Act 1.
Whichever path you are on, the reason Anders seems to sit down so passively and accept his fate is that he daren't allow himself to give way to anger, which would bring out Justice and possibly result in an uncontrollable rampage. You see a brief flash of Justice only moments before but Anders kept control. Whatever Hawke decides to do, Anders never loses control again, even if Hawke forces him to side with the Templars, which I think is an unbelievably cruel thing to do to him, and why it is clear that he will kill himself afterwards (I'm only surprised he didn't do so straight away).
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Post by Rascoth on Sept 23, 2020 13:50:54 GMT
As Giselle points out concerning the Exalted March on the Dales. An Exalted March isn't really truly one unless more than one nation supplies the troops I'm taking a lot of things Mother Giselle say with a grain of salt, and this is no exception. Sure, according to her the Exalted March on the Dales wasn't truly an Exalted March because it was only Orlais, but I don't think it's mentioned anywhere else that more than one nation has to take part in an Exalted March. It's one as long as it's under Chantry's banner. If the Chantry really didn't see it as actual Exalted March, they had enough sway to make people stop calling it that. Yet many centuries later it's still known as one. So not everyone in the Chantry thinks the same way as Mother Giselle. And she knows that. How does she put it? "It is hotly debated issue"? And despite that she tries to convince us it wasn't one... Plus, if an Exalted March needs involvement of more than one nation, Imperial Chantry could never call for one, yet clearly they did.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 23, 2020 14:06:27 GMT
Seems in one hand, on they want to show it as some terrible thing – and right after as a solution of your every sadness and fear, and a medicament of your nervousness and mental problem... You'll be content, just take the brand... you will not fear and dangerous, and can make shiny stuff and maintain your Circle what give you this mercy... My opinion this is cruel as fuck. Yes, in that regard, Tranquility is similar to suicide for a mental issue - it does not solve problems, it ends them. Problems that were in most cases created or exacerbated by the circle's atmosphere.
Helisma Derington from DAI also struck me as having some memory issues. "I remember being fond of animals. I don't remember why." Oh, and as far as the brand is concerned at least physically, I very much doubt that it has to look like a Chantry sunburst. That leaves... being a mark of ownership essentially, and I thought the sunburst crotch guards on the female robes were an unfortunate implication. Look on Sebastian's crotch, seems a habit... Bonus: sourceplus: (source – probably)
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Post by Catilina on Sept 23, 2020 14:14:51 GMT
As Giselle points out concerning the Exalted March on the Dales. An Exalted March isn't really truly one unless more than one nation supplies the troops I'm taking a lot of things Mother Giselle say with a grain of salt, and this is no exception. Sure, according to her the Exalted March on the Dales wasn't truly an Exalted March because it was only Orlais, but I don't think it's mentioned anywhere else that more than one nation has to take part in an Exalted March. It's one as long as it's under Chantry's banner. If the Chantry really didn't see it as actual Exalted March, they had enough sway to make people stop calling it that. Yet many centuries later it's still known as one. So not everyone in the Chantry thinks the same way as Mother Giselle. And she knows that. How does she put it? "It is hotly debated issue"? And despite that she tries to convince us it wasn't one... Plus, if an Exalted March needs involvement of more than one nation, Imperial Chantry could never call for one, yet clearly they did. The Chantry intervened when Orlais got into conflict with Kirkwall as well (Perrin Threnhold). So: seems not an unprecedented that the Chantry supports Orlais – while the Chantry is "neutral"... (Not mentioned Vivienne's candidacy to the Divine's position. To me: clearly Orlesian influence – Vivienne had nothing with the Chantry, but the Orlesian Court.)
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Sept 24, 2020 17:34:47 GMT
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 25, 2020 13:04:21 GMT
I wish they had told us what Anders name really was. I know I've already said this but it does bug me. I sort of feel this is something he would have revealed to his lover.
After all, Anders was the name given to him by others in the Circle when he refused to divulge his own name. He wanted to keep that part of his life for himself and they couldn't take it away from him so long as he didn't reveal his name. Although it is surprising that the Templars didn't even bother to find out his name when they dragged him away. Wouldn't they remember his mother calling after him as she surely did? You would think his name would be what was embroidered on his pillow but may be it was just a pretty design. Still in a way Anders was his slave name so why would he not have taken back his own name once he was free?
The only thing I can think of is that he was given his father's name and that is why he rejected it because his father was the one who betrayed him to the Circle. It is something I'm grappling with at the moment in my story because I can see him being asked about his name, which is not one usually found anywhere so if nothing else he might be asked its origins. I suppose that he can explain and of course his lover hasn't read WoT2, so perhaps they would just accept it without further explanation.
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