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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 6, 2020 19:55:04 GMT
SonyaIn real life Anders wouldn't do, what he did in DA2. When he said he almost killed Ella, Varric replies "You've killed two-hundred and fifty-four by my last count. Plus about five hundred men, a few dozen giant spiders, and at least two demons." Thedas doesn't work like our world, it's much more violent. In that world, his actions have a different meaning. The Kirkwall chantry was a part of a major political organisation (which, to remind everyone, was not filled with the poor, the sick, and orphans, because chantry sisters turned them away to the poor districts...and then went to them to collect money for the chantry...). The divine has two armies (templars and seekers), plus a network of spies. Chantries are not quaint little churches. And with the Right of Annulment being invoked 20 times, the chantry has created a system that practices genocide (and has been for 1000 years). With all the atrocities it's not as black and white to blow up a chantry. In DAI, Anders and Hawke are still together, he hasn't snapped. And he does a lot better with a Hawke that loves and supports him (like it was stated in the codex even in DA2: "In private he remains a tender and devoted lover; he has repeatedly declared that Hawke is the only reason he's retained any sanity at all."). Just because he has a lot of issues (aside from Justice) caused by they years of abuse and he won't ever be 100% ok, doesn't mean the only choice there is is to kill him. Just like it doesn't mean someone with PTSD or bipolar (again, the disorder that influenced Anders' characterisation), who might never be 100% ok, should just be euthanised.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2020 20:22:53 GMT
Tortures him from mercy...? That's absurd kill him OUT OF MERCY, if you care about him. You are not capable to do that, you are not capable to kill Connor, better watch how they suffer. In my canon DAO Save I don't kill Connor and leave bitch Isolde alive (perfect PT so to say). But I have other PTs as well with different outcomes (good DAO have so many choices and outcomes). At least you don't push him to support the Templars. That's... something. And that you don't want to romance him.
But Anders and Hawke can be happy. Even under some shadows.
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Post by Sonya on Jan 6, 2020 20:35:01 GMT
He was a very good student of the Circle. He learned everything what he needed to know. Not good enough, considering his actions: projecting his own faults to others, scolding others for what he is (an abomination), daring to teach Merrill about spirits/demons etc etc. As Carver says "I don't hate you because you're a mage. I hate you because you won't shut up about it.". Anders really can't beeing silent about those things (want to talk abou Meredith/Circles/ask someone's opinion - go ahead, just shut up about above mentioned things. Simple: take Anders to Flemeth quest and ask his opinion about Flemeth (you can also ask Fenris about her), and just watch Flemeth reaction when Anders says "I am a mage, of course I know about abomination". Flemeth response/tone/face expression are PRICELESS and tell a lot about Anders "beeing a good student". Rival!Hawke doesn't help him at anything, especially not to handle that "demon". Demonizes him. Calling him an abomination, and then having sex with him seems... should I continue? I don't think so. Rivalry with him as especially a Templar-hearted Hawke, or a Hawke who totally terrified from him, is a valid way. But tell me: what that Hawke's reason to romance him? To let him inside the mansion, in the bed? Just to play with a "monster"? To strengthen his suffering with scold-him-then-kiss-him game? Ugh... Seems absolutely unhealth RivalHawke helps him to understand who Anders truly is. And end with this once and for all. Why sleep with rival Anders/let him inside your house? How should I know. Can aks those who do those things, I am not gonna risk to sleep or invite such person to my house. Can only assume: such Hawke is always ready for everything/likes risky romances. But Hawke is like Shep from MET: always solve "Spectre" problemes. Eliminating threats is one of them it seems.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2020 21:17:23 GMT
He was a very good student of the Circle. He learned everything what he needed to know. Not good enough, considering his actions: projecting his own faults to others, scolding others for what he is (an abomination), daring to teach Merrill about spirits/demons etc etc. As Carver says "I don't hate you because you're a mage. I hate you because you won't shut up about it.". Anders really can't beeing silent about those things (want to talk abou Meredith/Circles/ask someone's opinion - go ahead, just shut up about above mentioned things. Simple: take Anders to Flemeth quest and ask his opinion about Flemeth (you can also ask Fenris about her), and just watch Flemeth reaction when Anders says "I am a mage, of course I know about abomination". Flemeth response/tone/face expression are PRICELESS and tell a lot about Anders "beeing a good student". Rival!Hawke doesn't help him at anything, especially not to handle that "demon". Demonizes him. Calling him an abomination, and then having sex with him seems... should I continue? I don't think so. Rivalry with him as especially a Templar-hearted Hawke, or a Hawke who totally terrified from him, is a valid way. But tell me: what that Hawke's reason to romance him? To let him inside the mansion, in the bed? Just to play with a "monster"? To strengthen his suffering with scold-him-then-kiss-him game? Ugh... Seems absolutely unhealth RivalHawke helps him to understand who Anders truly is. And end with this once and for all. Why sleep with rival Anders/let him inside your house? How should I know. Can aks those who do those things, I am not gonna risk to sleep or invite such person to my house. Can only assume: such Hawke is always ready for everything/likes risky romances. But Hawke is like Shep from MET: always solve "Spectre" problemes. Eliminating threats is one of them it seems. True. He's not a good student. He's the best student whom the Circle ever had.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Jan 6, 2020 21:43:07 GMT
Not good enough, considering his actions: projecting his own faults to others, scolding others for what he is (an abomination), daring to teach Merrill about spirits/demons etc etc. As Carver says "I don't hate you because you're a mage. I hate you because you won't shut up about it.". Anders really can't beeing silent about those things (want to talk abou Meredith/Circles/ask someone's opinion - go ahead, just shut up about above mentioned things. Simple: take Anders to Flemeth quest and ask his opinion about Flemeth (you can also ask Fenris about her), and just watch Flemeth reaction when Anders says "I am a mage, of course I know about abomination". Flemeth response/tone/face expression are PRICELESS and tell a lot about Anders "beeing a good student".
RivalHawke helps him to understand who Anders truly is. And end with this once and for all. Why sleep with rival Anders/let him inside your house? How should I know. Can aks those who do those things, I am not gonna risk to sleep or invite such person to my house. Can only assume: such Hawke is always ready for everything/likes risky romances.
But Hawke is like Shep from MET: always solve "Spectre" problemes. Eliminating threats is one of them it seems. True. He's not a good student. He's the best student whom the Circle ever had. Mage Warden: *coughing loudly* ^ Even Anders points this out when he tells Hawke "a mage saved us all from the Blight" (kindly forgetting Wynne and Morrigan who helped, though he does mention them if the Warden is not a mage)
though, I admit that Anders was the best at making daring escape attempts from the Circle
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Post by Sonya on Jan 6, 2020 22:04:50 GMT
In real life Anders wouldn't do, what he did in DA2. In real life? How do you know that? Such people as him are not afraid of some laws/prisons or whatever. He would have done those things anyway as he has a GAOL, DETERMINATION. Peope with such determination are very dangerous. And what Varric says means nothhing actually as take any squadmate and ask Varric how many creatures they killed. And yes, if not for Hawke, Varric'c calculations would have changed. After this quest you can get rid of Anders till Act 3 as he understood he can't control himself, the Demon owerpowered him, he admitts that. Thedas doesn't work like our world, it's much more violent. In that world, his actions have a different meaning. Agree, very true. DAU/MAU is very different from our real world. As you mentioned it's more violent, it's more cruel, there are different rules etc. etc. etc. (there are many different things of course). Thus in real world we can't chop Alistair's head during LMs, there are rule, laws, but in DAU - very easy, w/o questions. We can kill Connor just like that - who cares? Cruel world with differemt action meanings. Anders beeing an abomination in DAU - is a real danger (en particulier watching his self-destruction beeing an abomination). And not only Anders actions have different meaning. Actions of every individual have different menaing. DAU with different rules and beeing more violent. The Kirkwall chantry was a part of a major political organisation (which, to remind everyone, was not filled with the poor, the sick, and orphans, because chantry sisters turned them away to the poor districts...and then went to them to collect money for the chantry...). The divine has two armies (templars and seekers), plus a network of spies. this "thing" with former divines included are responsable for many aweful things. Users, killers, brainwashers, it's normal to use peope then kick them out, it's normal to pretend everything is just fine, hypocrites, useless divines killing other, not divines but simple murderers. How can people of DAU still trust that f-ing institute? Chantry is one of the institutions (like the circle/templar/brainwashing)that needs a real change as it's just a useles piece if shit spoiling everything. With all the atrocities it's not as black and white to blow up a chantry as mentioned - chantry is a useless piece if shit, including divines. With all the atrocities blowing up the chantry is grey (as many desicions in DAU) - except some innocent people. Chantry is responsable, it is was only a matter of time when someting happens to that "thing". In DA2 - Anders happened blowing it up. I blame the chantry for many thing (even hate it, I can't make a step w/o beeing called "heathen"), but such likes as Anders could have thought something else to start his war (or whatever he wanted). I am not fond of the chantry, think GC was a useless toilet paper, but I don't suppport blowing up those people. You could have think of something better, abomination - Anders. In DAI, Anders and Hawke are still together, he hasn't snapped. And he does a lot better with a Hawke that loves and supports him (like it was stated in the codex even in DA2: "In private he remains a tender and devoted lover; he has repeatedly declared that Hawke is the only reason he's retained any sanity at all."). Just because he has a lot of issues (aside from Justice) caused by they years of abuse and he won't ever be 100% ok, doesn't mean the only choice there is is to kill him. Just like it doesn't mean someone with PTSD or bipolar (again, the disorder that influenced Anders' characterisation), who might never be 100% ok, should just be euthanised It's all fine a well, but Anders is not just a person with PTSD, he is an abomination with many problemes. And the thing is - at one point it can blow up in your face (of course I don't know the future, you both can die in one day because of the age), but Anders is a threat, a mage, whom demons seducing 24/7, an abomination, with PTSD, bipolar. Thus - Anders poses more danger.
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Post by Sonya on Jan 6, 2020 22:42:41 GMT
At least you don't push him to support the Templars. That's... something. And that you don't want to romance him. Yep, I am amazing at not doing what others expect me to do. Thank you, Catilina. True. He's not a good student. He's the best student whom the Circle ever had. Circle didn't have him, he was a bad student, missing lecture - was too busy planning escapes and actually escaping 7 times. Anders had no time to study - was too busy with escaping and ...what was the punishment for that? Sitting in a cell? Was it after the 1st or 7th attempt? Somehow Wynne's student was hunted down right after the 1st attempt and called a BM. Stupid tempars: a real threat was sitting in the cell, but they were hunting a simple healer-elf posing no threat (in comparison with Anders).
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2020 23:10:29 GMT
True. He's not a good student. He's the best student whom the Circle ever had. Mage Warden: *coughing loudly* ^ Even Anders points this out when he tells Hawke "a mage saved us all from the Blight" (kindly forgetting Wynne and Morrigan who helped, though he does mention them if the Warden is not a mage) though, I admit that Anders was the best at making daring escape attempts from the Circle I just wanted to say: he learned everything about the Circle what he had to know. Also, a great mage. Of course, he was great at the escapes – Also, that inner-fire! He never gave up!
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Post by Catilina on Jan 6, 2020 23:17:02 GMT
At least you don't push him to support the Templars. That's... something. And that you don't want to romance him. Yep, I am amazing at not doing what others expect me to do. Thank you, Catilina . True. He's not a good student. He's the best student whom the Circle ever had. Circle didn't have him, he was a bad student, missing lecture - was too busy planning escapes and actually escaping 7 times. Anders had no time to study - was too busy with escaping and ...what was the punishment for that? Sitting in a cell? Was it after the 1st or 7th attempt? Somehow Wynne's student was hunted down right after the 1st attempt and called a BM. Stupid tempars: a real threat was sitting in the cell, but they were hunting a simple healer-elf posing no threat (in comparison with Anders). As I said, he learned everything what he had to know about the Circle – also, he's one of the best mages. Spirit Healers are very rare, and this is a hard study. Whatever you think, he's one of the best talented and educated mage. During the almost twenty years he spent in the Circle (except for the escapes), he had time to study.
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 6, 2020 23:32:21 GMT
In real life? How do you know that? Such people as him are not afraid of some laws/prisons or whatever. Because there's no militarised church committing genocide in our world, enslaving a minority he's a part of. He wouldn't see his friends be murdered, raped, or driven to suicide, be thrown into solitude confinement for a year (which btw is a serious form of torture), or have to run his entire life. He's not some madman, his actions are a product of the world he lives in. Just like real world Hawke wouldn't kill hundreds of criminals in the streets. The point is that each member of Hawke's party would have similar stats as those Varric points out and be considered a mass murdering psychopath in our word. Hell, that goes for any DA character. But what, exactly? He spent 10 years trying to do something. Organising the mage underground, changing attitudes towards mages with his free clinic, countering chantry propaganda with his manifesto. With Meredith, the idol, and the properties of the Veil in Kirkwall, nothing was working. By act 2 the mages are being made tranquil for writing love letters or so that the templars can rape them without them fighting back. All while the only person, who could do anything, Elthina, stood by and watched. I don't see, how anyone could have fixed this without some drastic event. Or Mass Effect's Space Jesus magic. Actually, the demons aren't seducing Anders, because Justice is protecting him. After "Night Terrors" Anders even tells you that he has not been in the fade, since he and Justice merged. In this case Anders is safer than mage Hawke, who is powerful (so attractive to demons) and not protected in any way. He poses a threat too. There's nothing in the canon that says Anders and Hawke can't live happily ever after, so any pontential threat is not a good enough reason to kill Anders.
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Post by Sonya on Jan 7, 2020 0:24:53 GMT
he's one of the best mages. Spirit Healers are very rare, and this is a hard study. study to earn trust of a spirit to help? I wonder wasn't that spirit simply a demon, or Anders used his charisma to ask spirit to help. Who the hell knows. But lectures about abominations he still missed busy with escaping - thus the result: abomination in flesh. according to his own words in DA2 (+ Wynne child Rhys) the circle he belonged to was full of kissing, hugging and sex. And considering mages are deprived of some things they can take pleasure at least in this. When did he have time to study? He merged with a spirit who became a demon. One of the lectures from the circle: "OK, students, remember this very important thing: spirits, passing through the veil to our world usually become demons as their purpose is changed, they are changed. And DO NOT let them in. It won't....wait! Someone's missing. Where the hell Anders?! Again escaped?!" Did not finish his study, sorry. The result - stupidity and abomination. Yeah, will you just go in circles whether Anders is the best or the worst mage of the Ferelden Circle? You will always say he is the best mage as ..."your explanations", that look like nonsense to me as mine explanations look like nonsense to you. On the other hand there is my own opinion, relyng upon his further actions, stupidity, BM, denying all that BM-abomination-out-of-controlling-projecting-his-sins-to-others bullshit on his behalf. Nice conversation, Catilina.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 7, 2020 1:30:41 GMT
he's one of the best mages. Spirit Healers are very rare, and this is a hard study. study to earn trust of a spirit to help? I wonder wasn't that spirit simply a demon, or Anders used his charisma to ask spirit to help. Who the hell knows. But lectures about abominations he still missed busy with escaping - thus the result: abomination in flesh. according to his own words in DA2 (+ Wynne child Rhys) the circle he belonged to was full of kissing, hugging and sex. And considering mages are deprived of some things they can take pleasure at least in this. When did he have time to study? He merged with a spirit who became a demon. One of the lectures from the circle: "OK, students, remember this very important thing: spirits, passing through the veil to our world usually become demons as their purpose is changed, they are changed. And DO NOT let them in. It won't....wait! Someone's missing. Where the hell Anders?! Again escaped?!" Did not finish his study, sorry. The result - stupidity and abomination. Yeah, will you just go in circles whether Anders is the best or the worst mage of the Ferelden Circle? You will always say he is the best mage as ..."your explanations", that look like nonsense to me as mine explanations look like nonsense to you. On the other hand there is my own opinion, relyng upon his further actions, stupidity, BM, denying all that BM-abomination-out-of-controlling-projecting-his-sins-to-others bullshit on his behalf. Nice conversation, Catilina . He knows what he did, and what he risks. In friendship romance he says, he thought with this moment (the merging) this part of his life is over (the love, normal life etc.), and he already dedicated himself for the freedom of mages. Also, he didn't know many about the spirits from the Circle, that seems in his conversations with Justice in Awakening (Also Nathaniel encouraged justice to have a living host, and he says, he wouldn't consider him demon, if the host is willing.) The spirits' nature where a little part of the Circle's study, the Spirit Healers knew more, since they heard the calling of the benevolent spirit (Anders and Wynne speak about), the Circle was always suspicious to them, also the Circle was ignorant about the spirits. They summoned them, used them, and turned them into a demon with forcing them (like the Kirkwall's Circle summoning expert in Solas' quest... Summoning "demons" was not blood magic... it's Circle study...) So: only the Circle taught to the spirits: to use them and to fear them as demons. The Circle failed. Wynne thought she's an abomination as well. The Warden has to reassure her, she's not. But that was a choice, he did with all of his knowledge, what much more than the most of the Circle mage, except in Daisrmuid. In his short story: As it seems, he thought the training is very important. That's clear when he speaks with Bethany. He mentioned, he saw, how educated is she, such a kind of education only available in the Circle. (He was not right about it, but he was an Andrastian Circle mage with some limitations...) He finished his study, he's a harrowed mage. (Yes, the Harrowing is useful, isn't? NOT. It's just another torture, a twisted ritual – for nothing. That crazy ritual quite ruined Vivienne for example... She still didn't recover from it, and this isn' wonder, she was very young when she did.) About that "Everyone's kissing everyone"... you did hear about the sarcasm? Yes, sex is existed for forget everything else. Love? The close relationships weren't supported in the Circle... Just see Karl and Anders. Also: Wynne's child what ways torn away from his mother, is a very good example what terrible was the Circle (in Dairsmuid the mages live in family – the Seekers Annulled it).
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 7, 2020 2:01:22 GMT
With all the atrocities it's not as black and white to blow up a chantry as mentioned - chantry is a useless piece if shit, including divines. With all the atrocities blowing up the chantry is grey (as many desicions in DAU) - except some innocent people. You’re both absolutely wrong. Blowing up a building killing hundreds of innocent people in order to spark a war which will lead to the deaths of countless more innocent people is about as morally black an action one can commit.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 7, 2020 2:21:04 GMT
as mentioned - chantry is a useless piece if shit, including divines. With all the atrocities blowing up the chantry is grey (as many desicions in DAU) - except some innocent people. You’re both absolutely wrong. Blowing up a building killing hundreds of innocent people in order to spark a war which will lead to the deaths of countless more innocent people is about as morally black an action one can commit. So, that's an absolutely wrong place to you. Cya, have a good day!
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Post by Sonya on Jan 7, 2020 3:13:55 GMT
The point is that each member of Hawke's party would have similar stats as those Varric points out and be considered a mass murdering psychopath in our word. Hell, that goes for any DA character. as I said, such people as Anders are not stopped by anything: some circles which he escaped/templars/our own laws/ - such people as he - who has a clear purpose - will accomplish their great plans by any means. No matter how many people they have to kill. So Varric's counting of spiders is irrelevant in this case (to be clear - relocate anyone from DAU/MAT to our world and they all will be considered mass murdering psychopathes and sentences to death). In other words: relocate Anders in our reality and some cities are screwed because of him - Juslice-Demon will always find unjustice, and our real world is just a paradise for such likes as Justice-Anders. just to clarify, SVP, what minority are you reffering to? He wouldn't see his friends be murdered, raped, or driven to suicide anyway it happens after blowig up the chantry. Hawke and his friends are forced to be involved into that mess Anders has done. So his friends as well as mages/templars who wanted to live in peace + as Catilina always likes to mention, children, will die. They will all die, be raped by madmen or driven to suicide out of fear. You can see it during the last fight: lots of dead bodies. He spent 10 years trying to do something His "something" was useless: - the mage underground: letting more BM to the city, not out of the city - his quest where he talks "don't remember now word for word, I'm sorry". Amazing how many BMs you can meet in the city and outskirts of the city trying to kill you only because you decided to walk and breathe a fresh air. - changing attitudes towards mages with his free clinic: a noble goal, but useless. People know there is a healer, come to him, use him, then get out of there to think how to earn at least some money for food + Anders in one of the dialogues mentiones that he is already afraid to heal as Justice can appear. Do you really think people are so blind not to notice something is wrong with Anders thus the whole "trust mages" part is falling apart. Plus food takes the first place in people's mind. It is simpe: instinct to survive. - countering chantry propaganda with his manifesto: manifesto shown to Hawke? "Talk to GC about mages. It's her last chance to change her mind" - now matter what he still sets the bomb. Or before that about "tranquil solution": divine, Meredith, GC rejected the idea "Maybe I should go and talk to GC". And? What did he do? Went and talked to her? Just trash talk on his behalf, nothing else, well, except the bomb. the templars can rape them without them fighting back. yes, I saw a couple of such assholes shown in quests. Did Beth lied or became blind not to mention such cases? She metioned one templar - whom we kill in Anders quest, but says nothing about other terrifying things. At least odd. By act 2 the mages are being made tranquil for writing love letters Chain of command and rules (there will always be people unhappy with this or that) exist everywhere to keep order (in Kirkwall Circle rules are clear - no love letters: aa strict rule, but it's a rule). All while the only person, who could do anything, Elthina, stood by and watched with this statement I agree: imo she just didn't do her work (or tried something but with zero effect), she was useless. Did Anders talk to her, at least once? IIRC he asked Hawke to talk to her about mages in Act 3, in other words used Hawke, instead of trying to talk to her himself or at least take Hawke with him as a support as Hawke had some influence at least. Why Anders is better to talk to GC? Cauze he is more familiar with the situation, he just suits for this, not Hawke who is bettr at waving 2h sword. without some drastic event you mean blowing up the chantry with innocent peope + GC - doesn't matter she was useless but whatever? That drastic event? Involving everyone in the war, including those who didn't want it. As a resul: no circles, and the first act of mage freedom - sell themselves into slavery to Tevinter. Nice start, great continuation. Though Templars were no better. Idiots as well. If Anders alive I hope he is happy about mages actions. Or Mass Effect's Space Jesus magic. No, Cthulhu suits better for that. Actually, the demons aren't seducing Anders, because Justice is protecting him. thank you for information. The thing is: in DAU there are mages, you can't get rid of them, they are born every day. You can't escape this reality. Are the mage guilty they are born as mages? Of course not. But here comes the probleme: what to do? Simple villages want to feel safe, it is a fact mages can be dangerous, thus living in a tower - is the only option, not letting them walking freely. Are mages deprived of some freedoms and some other things? Yes. Only the circle protects both of these groupes. Let a mage free and he won't live long as he will be killed or will kill himself the whole town. P.S. I am still waiting the results of DAI reforms in DA4. Plus there were suggestions for now about reforms (circles/templars/not burning down villages etc).
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Wanted Apostate
127
0
Apr 25, 2024 15:45:03 GMT
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 7, 2020 4:02:54 GMT
The point is that each member of Hawke's party would have similar stats as those Varric points out and be considered a mass murdering psychopath in our word. Hell, that goes for any DA character. as I said, such people as Anders are not stopped by anything: some circles which he escaped/templars/our own laws/ - such people as he - who has a clear purpose - will accomplish their great plans by any means. No matter how many people they have to kill. So Varric's counting of spiders is irrelevant in this case (to be clear - relocate anyone from DAU/MAT to our world and they all will be considered mass murdering psychopathes and sentences to death). In other words: relocate Anders in our reality and some cities are screwed because of him - Juslice-Demon will always find unjustice, and our real world is just a paradise for such likes as Justice-Anders. just to clarify, SVP, what minority are you reffering to? He wouldn't see his friends be murdered, raped, or driven to suicide anyway it happens after blowig up the chantry. Hawke and his friends are forced to be involved into that mess Anders has done. So his friends as well as mages/templars who wanted to live in peace + as Catilina always likes to mention, children, will die. They will all die, be raped by madmen or driven to suicide out of fear. You can see it during the last fight: lots of dead bodies. He spent 10 years trying to do something His "something" was useless: - the mage underground: letting more BM to the city, not out of the city - his quest where he talks "don't remember now word for word, I'm sorry". Amazing how many BMs you can meet in the city and outskirts of the city trying to kill you only because you decided to walk and breathe a fresh air. - changing attitudes towards mages with his free clinic: a noble goal, but useless. People know there is a healer, come to him, use him, then get out of there to think how to earn at least some money for food + Anders in one of the dialogues mentiones that he is already afraid to heal as Justice can appear. Do you really think people are so blind not to notice something is wrong with Anders thus the whole "trust mages" part is falling apart. Plus food takes the first place in people's mind. It is simpe: instinct to survive. - countering chantry propaganda with his manifesto: manifesto shown to Hawke? "Talk to GC about mages. It's her last chance to change her mind" - now matter what he still sets the bomb. Or before that about "tranquil solution": divine, Meredith, GC rejected the idea "Maybe I should go and talk to GC". And? What did he do? Went and talked to her? Just trash talk on his behalf, nothing else, well, except the bomb. the templars can rape them without them fighting back. yes, I saw a couple of such assholes shown in quests. Did Beth lied or became blind not to mention such cases? She metioned one templar - whom we kill in Anders quest, but says nothing about other terrifying things. At least odd. By act 2 the mages are being made tranquil for writing love letters Chain of command and rules (there will always be people unhappy with this or that) exist everywhere to keep order (in Kirkwall Circle rules are clear - no love letters: aa strict rule, but it's a rule). All while the only person, who could do anything, Elthina, stood by and watched with this statement I agree: imo she just didn't do her work (or tried something but with zero effect), she was useless. Did Anders talk to her, at least once? IIRC he asked Hawke to talk to her about mages in Act 3, in other words used Hawke, instead of trying to talk to her himself or at least take Hawke with him as a support as Hawke had some influence at least. Why Anders is better to talk to GC? Cauze he is more familiar with the situation, he just suits for this, not Hawke who is bettr at waving 2h sword. without some drastic event you mean blowing up the chantry with innocent peope + GC - doesn't matter she was useless but whatever? That drastic event? Involving everyone in the war, including those who didn't want it. As a resul: no circles, and the first act of mage freedom - sell themselves into slavery to Tevinter. Nice start, great continuation. Though Templars were no better. Idiots as well. If Anders alive I hope he is happy about mages actions. Or Mass Effect's Space Jesus magic. No, Cthulhu suits better for that. Actually, the demons aren't seducing Anders, because Justice is protecting him. thank you for information. The thing is: in DAU there are mages, you can't get rid of them, they are born every day. You can't escape this reality. Are the mage guilty they are born as mages? Of course not. But here comes the probleme: what to do? Simple villages want to feel safe, it is a fact mages can be dangerous, thus living in a tower - is the only option, not letting them walking freely. Are mages deprived of some freedoms and some other things? Yes. Only the circle protects both of these groupes. Let a mage free and he won't live long as he will be killed or will kill himself the whole town. P.S. I am still waiting the results of DAI reforms in DA4. Plus there were suggestions for now about reforms (circles/templars/not burning down villages etc). Mages and Templars can't live in peace, until the mages aren't free. Or... of course they can... like Orana wanted to live in peace with Hadriana. She was terrified from the freedom, and begged Hawke don't hurt Hadriana. Later she told, she felt sorry for Hadriana, she understood her, because the other magisters constantly mocked her. Hadriana sacrificed her father for his blood. Fenris killed his protectors for Danarius. He told Hawke he didn't wanted the freedom, it was an accident. And when he killed the Fog Warriors he woke up, he can't live in slavery anymore. That's the peace between the oppressed and oppressor. Of course some mages feared the freedom: one thing they knew is the Circle: this was their prison and home. Fiona was tricked by Alexius: he offered citizenship of servitude for the Imperium. That's not slavery exactly. Fiona would never sell her fellows and herself. She was a slave. A pet of an Orlesian noble, when she was 7. Still: she thought the Circle is awful. Despite she experienced terrible things. Bethany "lied", yes. If you call "lie", if someone wants to reassure her remained family, for she sacrificed herself. "Don't worry, I'm fine". Oh, of course, she is. My Hawke just waited the proper moment to gut Meredith... In the Act1, he offered her head to Anders... half-joking – but later to him, was good enough to see, Karl, and what happened in the Chantry to decide, that person isn't worthy to anything else, killing her just serves the good. And especially after Ella's case, he didn't feel for a moment, that Bethany's safe in that place surrounded a bunch of crazy perverted mobster (Alrik was not alone there, nor in the Chantry – and seems his zealots, agreed with him until their death.). He just hoped, Bethany good enough to avoid the troubles. This Hawke is my sweetheart. A good helping guy. A pure hearted reaver/berserker I never understood, how Hawke can believe, that Bethany's in safe in that place. If not fooling herself into false illusions, because thinking about reality is worse than believing there's nothing wrong. Not Anders' act troubled Bethany, but Meredith and her Templars. Anders' act freed her. And she told, she knows her place already in the world: to free her fellow mages.
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Feb 26, 2017 13:09:29 GMT
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Rouccoco
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Feb 24, 2017 23:47:54 GMT
February 2017
bioticapostate
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 7, 2020 5:20:09 GMT
In other words: relocate Anders in our reality and some cities are screwed because of him - Juslice-Demon will always find unjustice, and our real world is just a paradise for such likes as Justice-Anders. In the real world Justice wouldn’t exist, so Anders wouldn’t be possessed. Either way, I wasn’t trying to start a discussion about what Anders would look like in our world, just that judging his actions based on our modern approach doesn’t work for Thedas. Mages. Mages are a minority. The abusive circle system the chantry set up lasted for a 1000 years. The war is preferable to continuing that. Also, Anders didn’t start the war. The main catalyst was the vote by the mages (that is - the majority of them) to separate from the chantry. At which point the templars did the same and started killing mages now that there was no authority above them. All the codex entries and dialogues say he has a lot of work in the clinic. Lirene didn’t want to tell you, where to find Anders, because he was so helpful and important to the people in Darktown/Lowtown. He doubts his control, but he never did anything in the clinic to make people fear him. I don’t know, where you’re getting this from. Anders mentions the same happening in Kinloch. Cullen was written as a creep in DAO, mages were afraid he’d violate them. It’s not a rare event in the circles, their fear is based on previous events. ...what? There are no rules against writing letters in any circle. They were using any excuse to make mages tranquil. That does nothing to help keep order. And even if there were such rules - it’s a clear atrocity and abuse of power. My Hawke is a mage, he’s capable of berating her himself. Also, Orsino talked to her about those issues for years, she just didn’t care. The Avvar. The Rivaini. The Dalish. Hell, even Vivienne’s circle in Montsimmard. We have plenty evidence of systems, where mages are free, but trained and supported by their communities, and compared to the restrictive circles, they don’t have issues with mages running around burning down villages. I don’t have to find a working replacement for the circles, because the games already show you multiple.
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Feb 26, 2017 13:09:29 GMT
2,275
Rouccoco
520
Feb 24, 2017 23:47:54 GMT
February 2017
bioticapostate
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Post by Rouccoco on Jan 7, 2020 5:22:04 GMT
as mentioned - chantry is a useless piece if shit, including divines. With all the atrocities blowing up the chantry is grey (as many desicions in DAU) - except some innocent people. You’re both absolutely wrong. Blowing up a building killing hundreds of innocent people in order to spark a war which will lead to the deaths of countless more innocent people is about as morally black an action one can commit. No, you’re wrong. But that’s expected from someone, who thinks tranquility, an extreme form of torture, is a good idea.
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11368
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Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 7, 2020 5:40:52 GMT
You’re both absolutely wrong. Blowing up a building killing hundreds of innocent people in order to spark a war which will lead to the deaths of countless more innocent people is about as morally black an action one can commit. I didn't say blowing up innocents is good. You said black, I called DAU desicions grey as imo they are grey (almost all of them). he already dedicated himself for the freedom of mages. not completely it seems, considering the romance and using Hawke's estate as a base for his mage-freedom operations: don't say "I love you" and he himself brings up the question "move in as the templars here and there". And at the same time yells at Merrill and scolds her "No wonder demons found you such an easy prey" and after that complains to Hawke "She is the reason templars will come" - fucking hypocrite abomination, who can't even acknowledge it and yells at Merrill who doesn't deny what she does and lives just fine - a true real man (connard). Also, he didn't know many about the spirits from the Circle good point: as I wrote, healers use spirits to help them to heal, but those could also be disguising demons. Also Nathaniel encouraged justice to have a living host, and he says, he wouldn't consider him demon, if the host is willing Nathaniel knows nothing about this, who cares what he says? Interestng to hear Nathaniel after he could see that Anders-abomination. Wynne thought she's an abomination as well Wynne is an abomination. She is fortunate her spirit remained what it was. Together, we could remake Thedas into a world where justice rules, not fear and look what happened. Wasn't Justice by that time already a Demon, seducing Anders by things he wanted? in DAA Justice critisized others they should pay for their deeds: that elf-woman e.g., who killed innocent people like a complete bitch w/o any investigation, he always wanted to protect innocents and do good deeds (don't recruit him and he found a very good thing to do, w/o any advice). This doesn't stack with Justice-Anders in DA2. Justice changed his tactics: kill other to start a war? Blow up the chantry with innocents? And after that if he lives just watch from aside the results of his justice? They both were stupid thinking they could remake Thedas. All they did - kill many innocent people. It's not Justice, it a Demon. He finished his study, he's a harrowed mage. (Yes, the Harrowing is useful, isn't? NOT. It's just another torture, a twisted ritual – for nothing. That crazy ritual quite ruined Vivienne for example... She still didn't recover from it, and this isn' wonder, she was very young when she did.) Yeah-yeah, Harrowing is a torture. Thank you for reminding of that for 1000 time. A Harrowed mage means nothing - he is still a danger and attractive to demons. you did hear about the sarcasm? Yes. A pointless question. Irrelevant for the discussion. a very good example what terrible was the Circle it is the only place where mages can live w/o being killed on the spot and the only place for blood-thisty mage eager to burn the whole town. I don't deny the circle isn't a wonderful place, but it's the only place to keep the peace concerning mage-situation.
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11368
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Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 7, 2020 7:35:58 GMT
Mages and Templars can't live in peace, until the mages aren't free You know that how? I am talking about our DA country with brainwashed simple people (it's important, just in case). Even if there is some kind of peace, before that hundreds of villagers and mages will die, but more villager as for mages it is enough to throw a fireball to kill 50 people in no time + don't even know how many years: historically people are like snails to except changes, and here braiwashed villagers and magic are involed - it is even more complicated. Plus we need reforms anyway. Fiona was tricked by Alexius: he offered citizenship of servitude for the Imperium. That's not slavery exactly. Fiona would never sell her fellows and herself. She was a slave. A pet of an Orlesian noble, when she was 7. Still: she thought the Circle is awful. Despite she experienced terrible things. yes, otherwise other mages who blame Fiona are just morons, who actuallty were against such deal (some even wanted back to the circle)and accused Fiona to sell them into slavery. Untill they repay the dept, they are slaves. Like elves. And Fiona shouldn't even have talked to Alexius. Period. FOW NOW her past is irrelevant: other mages consider her as a leader NOW. And she failed them. Bethany "lied", yes. If you call "lie", if someone wants to reassure her remained family, for she sacrificed herself. "Don't worry, I'm fine". Oh, of course, she is. My Hawke just waited the proper moment to gut Meredith... in this matter I understand the difference: I prefer honesty, no matter what it is (I guess my own sister should now that already and know that I know when she lies). You prefer lies for the sake of someone's peace. No wonder I like Carver more than Berhany and not only because of this matter (and not cauze of his looks or whatever). Happy for your Hawke. Mages and Templars can't live in peace, until the mages aren't free. Or... of course they can... like Orana wanted to live in peace with Hadriana. He was terrified from the freedom, and begged Hawke don't hurt Hadriana. Later she told, she felt sorry for Hadriana, she understood her, because the other magisters constantly mocked her. Hadriana sacrificed his father for his blood. Fenris killed his protectors for Danarius. He told Hawke he didn't wanted the freedom, it was an accident. And when he killed the Fog Warriors he woke up, he can't live in slavery anymore. That's the peace between the oppressed and oppressor. Of course some mages feared the freedom: one thing they knew is the Circle: this was their prison and home. + In the Act1, he offered her head to Anders... half-joking – but later to him, was good enough to see, Karl, and what happened in the Chantry to decide, that person isn't worthy to anything else, killing her just serves the good. And especially after Ella's case, he didn't feel for a moment, that Bethany's safe in that place surrounded a bunch of crazy perverted mobster (Alrik was not alone there, nor in the Chantry – and seems his zealots, agreed with him until their death.). He just hoped, Bethany good enough to avoid the troubles. This Hawke is my sweetheart. A good helping guy. A pure hearted reaver/berserker I never understood, how Hawke can believe, that Bethany's in safe in that place. If not fooling herself into false illusions, because thinking about reality is worse than believing there's nothing wrong. Not Anders' act troubled Bethany, but Meredith and her Templars. Anders' act freed her. And she told, she knows her place already in the world: to free her fellow mages Catilina, would you, please, make small quotes at least if you answer another post, so it could be clear to what exact sentences you are referring? I am really sorry to say that, but sometimes your posts are SO fucked up, that I just can't understand ....well..nothing at all (I understant there could be mistakes, misprints), but this? You know, 2-3 sentences also could be connected with one thought. Again, I am sorry to say that, but it is what it is. I can't even answer you for the rest of your posts cauze of the above reasons.
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Scribbles
185
0
Apr 23, 2024 17:30:54 GMT
30,246
Hanako Ikezawa
22,353
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 7, 2020 7:36:12 GMT
You’re both absolutely wrong. Blowing up a building killing hundreds of innocent people in order to spark a war which will lead to the deaths of countless more innocent people is about as morally black an action one can commit. I didn't say blowing up innocents is good. You said black, I called DAU desicions grey as imo they are grey (almost all of them). By saying it is morally grey, that means there is something good about it. There is nothing good about actions like that.
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11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 7, 2020 7:53:02 GMT
By saying it is morally grey, that means there is something good about it. There is nothing good about actions like that. - it's not oxymoron; - my color is still grey; - I still think killing innocents is not a good thing.
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1020
0
Nov 26, 2017 12:37:49 GMT
21,685
fylimar
5,415
Aug 16, 2016 18:31:34 GMT
August 2016
fylimar
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by fylimar on Jan 7, 2020 8:58:46 GMT
I didn't say blowing up innocents is good. You said black, I called DAU desicions grey as imo they are grey (almost all of them). By saying it is morally grey, that means there is something good about it. There is nothing good about actions like that. I find it a bit strange, that the same person, that berates Iddy on page 9 of the Josephine thread, that they haven't anything positive to say about Josephine, now comes into another character fan thread and does the same - much more unkind imo. I'm not a big Anders fan, so I don't care, what you say about him, but I do find it impolite to be that unkind in a fan thread. I would suggest to open another thread for discussing Anders guilt, except, there are already some in the DA 2 discussion threads that deal with Anders and mages, so maybe go there and discuss?
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11368
0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 7, 2020 10:34:08 GMT
In the real world Justice wouldn’t exist, so Anders wouldn’t be possessed. Either way, I wasn’t trying to start a discussion about what Anders would look like in our world, just that judging his actions based on our modern approach doesn’t work for Thedas. who pushed, who continued, but as you wish. Also, Anders didn’t start the war. The main catalyst was the vote by the mages (that is - the majority of them) to separate from the chantry. At which point the templars did the same and started killing mages now that there was no authority above them. I was talking about Kirkwall in my posts, not the whole war across the continent. All the codex entries and dialogues say he has a lot of work in the clinic. Lirene didn’t want to tell you, where to find Anders, because he was so helpful and important to the people in Darktown/Lowtown. He doubts his control, but he never did anything in the clinic to make people fear him. I don’t know, where you’re getting this from - in the beginning of the game the situation with Anders is not so bad, so of course he had a lot of work, he heals people and others help him; - have you ever been SO desperate, so was ready to use anything and anyone just in hope it can help? Now, desperate people, w/o home/food/money are even ready for risks, so they even go to a healer about whom there are some strange rumours: he changed a little bit, then it became more obvious. But people-refugees need help they can get only from Anders - they have no choice. I don’t know, where you’re getting this from from the game, where else. Did you even see (not just see but actually watch) him in rival? (even in the internet, who cares). He looks like some junkie. The further, the worse. And the fact that he is afraid Justice can come out also plays a part in his mental state. People notice that but still have no options. Anders mentions the same happening in Kinloch. Cullen was written as a creep in DAO, mages were afraid he’d violate them. It’s not a rare event in the circles, their fear is based on previous events. 2 registrated cases, though Cullen acts like an idiot only if you choose Templars as your cannon fodder. There are 1-2 more registrated cases of how bad some templars are, I think (don't remember now). Where are the evidence of others? I don't need evidence of others to see how mages abuse their power everywhere. I can see how some templars just turn into thugs - but those are single cases. But the mages: can't make a step w/o stumbling upon some BM/crazy mage/mage who just wants to kill you. Mages trying to kill you are everywhere, and not just you. ...what? There are no rules against writing letters in any circle. They were using any excuse to make mages tranquil. That does nothing to help keep order. And even if there were such rules - it’s a clear atrocity and abuse of power What you've read. No, mages are not allowered to have children (Wynne e.g.), love letter lead to where? Invention of electricity? The circle doesn't need additional problemes in the form of crying children, and if not for strict rules the circle would have turned into a kindergarden for a time as the whole world knows mages have sex. My Hawke is a mage, he’s capable of berating her himself. Also, Orsino talked to her about those issues for years, she just didn’t care. Your Hawke doesn't matter at all. It's about Anders, do you remember that? He did nothing at ll about THAT. That's all. The fact that she is useless I don't deny. But Anders talks too much only. Or Demon. Or Combinationns of them. Whatever. The fact remains: he did nothing at all, did not try. He is just a user. Sometimes our attemps are useless but it is still worth trying. Anders was useless in that, only used Hawke - do this, do that. The Avvar. The Rivaini. The Dalish. We have plenty evidence of systems, where mages are free, but trained and supported by their communities, and compared to the restrictive circles, they don’t have issues with mages running around burning down villages. Is it a joke or what? Do you really not understand proud people of Thedas will NEVER accept those cultural traditions (race, city, country) + those cultures have very strict rules about mages or free-to-pass rules (1 more mage born? Send away that one who is 7 y.o. - that's Merrill btw; became posessed? Chop the head off w/o questions etc ec etc). If mages walk freely, it doesn't mean they have nothing to fear or other people don't fear them at some point. You examples are garbage. But here comes the probleme: what to do? Simple villages want to feel safe, it is a fact mages can be dangerous, thus living in a tower - is the only option, not letting them walking freely. The Avvar. The Rivaini. The Dalish. Hell, even Vivienne’s circle in Montsimmard. We have plenty evidence of systems, where mages are free, but trained and supported by their communities, and compared to the restrictive circles, they don’t have issues with mages running around burning down villages. I don’t have to find a working replacement for the circles, because the games already show you multiple. What is that? "Hell" - annoyance" from you? It is insulting, RouccocoYou are just beeig rude. Don't want to talk to me, then don't be a coward and just say it (I anyway like honest and sraight people).
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11247
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1,639
Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Buckeldemon on Jan 7, 2020 12:01:41 GMT
Wow. This has become a mess extremely quickly. You’re both absolutely wrong. Blowing up a building killing hundreds of innocent people in order to spark a war which will lead to the deaths of countless more innocent people is about as morally black an action one can commit. No, you’re wrong. But that’s expected from someone, who thinks tranquility, an extreme form of torture, is a good idea. As far as I got it, Hanako mostly defended Tranquility in case of Orana as far as the Meredith threat went. I personally would want to have more info than provided by the codex entry when making up my decision, as this text may be taken as an advertisement of Tranquilitiy to some extent. On the other hand, that argument sometimes brought up about Tranquil people not feeling anything about their state is circular nonsense, as without emotions, of course they don't feel anything about it. Of course, swooping in when triggered and dropping short, curt responses to continue what appears as an off-screen fight (or personal beef?) to me does not help keeping things clear.
Wynne thought she's an abomination as well Wynne is an abomination. She is fortunate her spirit remained what it was. "Abomination" is loaded (chantry) language, nothing more, just like "Apostate" and other things that are meant to discredit any disagreement with established dogma. Of course it is kinda iffy when established in-universe monikers are basically just blunt insults. I tend to watch that language based on individual circumstances. Wynne does not wantonly destroy stuff, nor does her spirit take control of her or turn her into a mutated flesh heap, so she does not qualify as "an abomination" to me. Neither does Sigrid Guldsdotten for that matter. They are just possessed. Anders can easily qualify as an "abom", at the very least by Act 3. If the Harrowing means nothing, why keeping it then?In my view, the argument of "circles (or templars) protecting mages form outside hate" is self-defeating, as the Chantry/circles/templars are creting that hate and keeping it up in the first place. The Chantry clearly likes its TINA approach to everything. Vindicates their notion that they are the best. TINA is still a bullshitting bitch though. (TINA = "There is no alternative" reasoning. or more likely copout excuse) Mages and Templars can't live in peace, until the mages aren't free You know that how? I am talking about our DA country with brainwashed simple people (it's important, just in case). Even if there is some kind of peace, before that hundreds of villagers and mages will die, but more villager as for mages it is enough to throw a fireball to kill 50 people in no time + don't even know how many years: historically people are like snails to except changes, and here braiwashed villagers and magic are involed - it is even more complicated. Plus we need reforms anyway. Yes. But why not focus on the brainwashing part then? aka Get. Rid. Of. The. Chantry. Anders mentions the same happening in Kinloch. Cullen was written as a creep in DAO, mages were afraid he’d violate them. It’s not a rare event in the circles, their fear is based on previous events. 2 registrated cases, though Cullen acts like an idiot only if you choose Templars as your cannon fodder. There are 1-2 more registrated cases of how bad some templars are, I think (don't remember now). Where are the evidence of others? I don't need evidence of others to see how mages abuse their power everywhere. I can see how some templars just turn into thugs - but those are single cases. But the mages: can't make a step w/o stumbling upon some BM/crazy mage/mage who just wants to kill you. Mages trying to kill you are everywhere, and not just you. Double standard/confirmation bias, that is? How is a military organisation with no (effective) oversight not prone to power abuse, especially if they can potentially justify everything by "Deus vult!!!!!"Uhm... wait... what? As far as I got it, the bias against mage children is simply there to breed magic out of the population, if Leandra's comments about "stains on their bloodline" (paraphrased) are any indication. Uhm, it is not the fault of the groups mentioned that andrastian (and 'Vint) humans are raised to be racist dirtbags with a severe superiority complex. I honestly don't know what you are getting at. If someone points out chantry bullshit, you appear to agree in principle. Then you commence to defend other chantry rubbish a few posts later? I might be missing something, but I honestly don't get it. ...
The statement "Anders is a good circle mage" has so many layers, at least to me. I won't judge his magical abilities here. What constitutes a "good" circle mage anyway?
As I see it, he is right in line with the ubiquitous notion that Chantry thinking (and magical training) is superior to anything else and shows this by going out of his way to berate Merrill. His insistence on "good spirits and bad demons" dichotomy might delve into a kind of self-defense behaviour though. What he apparently seems to recognise is the double standart in terms of chantry dogma which cannot decide if magic is to be regarded as a "gift" or "curse".
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