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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 19, 2019 12:54:08 GMT
Hi guys,
I remembered an old post I had at the original Bioware Forums. And thought it would be fun to post and talk about here again. I basically made this in 2016 and had my own hypothetical showdown between all the special forces in Mass Effect. Would be curious to hear what are yours and how it would go down?
Original Post:
For fun, I am going to analyze a hypothetical matchup between all the special forces in the Mass Effect Universe. Which do you think will prevail and why?
The rules: 1. Assume units at maximum strength (Krogans have Grunt and Batarians are not destroyed by Reapers yet and N7 at height of Reaper Wars) 2. Assume Squad v Squad scenarios 3. Take into account weapon differences if any
I'll begin by a force analysis along with a conclusion.
Alliance N7 The best the Alliance has to offer; literally the special forces within Alliance special forces. N7 squads were successfully deployed as front line shock troops, elite rearguards, hostage rescues, recon, escort, sabotage, and even as an independent flanking force! This indicates that the N7 teams are the most versatile in terms of utilization. Whatever military emergency there is, N7 teams can do it victoriously by themselves. Finally during the Reaper war, the N7 were the ones called to train all other races on how to fight the Reapers in asymmetric warfare; indicating that N7 squads have very superb squad tactics.
Advantage: Versatility. Squad tactics so good that other races asked them for training on how to fight Reapers. Notable Members: David Anderson, Kai Leng, James Vega, Commander Shepard
Asari Commandos Asari Commandos are the elite of the Asari military. Think about it; they are the elite biotics among a race which ranks number 1 in biotics. So safe to say, Asari Commandos will have the advantage in biotics. They usually fight in small groups using guerrilla tactics and are equal in duels to Krogan Battlemasters. Finally, the Asari Republics do not have the numbers or the resources to field a powerful navy as the Turians/Krogans/Rachni; so literally they have relied on Asari Commandos to keep their foes at bay. Again I'll repeat, Asari Commandos are the reason why the smaller Asari military fend off larger invaders like the Krogan/Rachni.
Advantaged: Unmatched in biotics and individual combat. Notable Members: Aria T'Loak, Aleena, Shiala, Captain Enyala, Captain Wasea
Batarian SIU The Batarian Hegemony has a special forces division known as the Special Intervention Unit. They have perhaps the most brutal training, up to 18% mortality rate. Little is known about their operations, but we do know that former SIU Batarians copied & pasted their training regime into the Blue Suns. After adopting SIU training and having many former SIU Batarians become Blue Sun leaders, the Blue Suns became the top mercenary outfit in Omega. This is the same Omega that has former Asari Commandos and Krogan Battlemasters competing against them. SIU seems to have the advantage at least in the organizational front and can scale their elite training better than all others.
Advantage: Able to scale their brutal, elite training and able to organize an elite squad quicker than everyone else. Notable Members: Tarak (speculative)
Krogan Aralakh Company Made up of the best warriors in all the Krogan clans, including Grunt. So among a race known for tough and strong warriors, these are the toughest and strongest among them. Every Aralakh warrior is the strongest, fiercest, and most experienced in his clan, in other words Krogan Battlemasters. And so we can safely assume that their tactics are like Krogan Battlemasters with additional group dynamics. And we know Battlemasters are a match for any ten soldiers of another species. Aralakh even managed to hold off a huge hoard of Rachni with only a small squad; all other races would need at least some sort of backup. Battlemasters focus on developing clean, brute-force economy of motion that exploits their brutal strength to incapacitate enemies with a swift single blow of overwhelming power. Advantage: Most durable and the strongest in a head to head fight. Notable Members: Grunt, Urdnot Dagg
Salarian STG Citadel Spectres were literally modeled after the Salarian Special Tasks Group. STG operators work in independent cells performing espionage, counter-terrorism, infiltration, reconnaissance, assassination, and sabotage. In other words, they are both elite spies AND special forces; think James Bond plus Rambo. STG operators are trained to be innovative and often complete missions with shoestring resources. They can also change their tactics on the fly. Advantage: Super adaptable. Can do both intelligence and military operations. Notable Members: Major Kirrahae, Mordin Solus, Pado Wiks
Turian Blackwatch There are rumors that Saren Arterius was part of Blackwatch before becoming a Spectre. The Blackwatch are sent on missions that threaten the safety of Palaven itself. The majority of Blackwatch's operations are classified, but we know they have the highest success rate of any Turian unit. So in a race that prides itself on military prowess and success, the Blackwatch have the highest success rate, indicating a sort of reliability that other special forces do not have. Finally, in ME3, they were sent to disarm a nuclear bomb on Tuchanka and succeeded despite heavy Cerberus and Reaper forces, again indicating reliability. Advantage: Reliability and discipline. Turians already are super reliable in their military operations. This is the cream of the crop. Notable Members: Saren Arterius, Tarquin Victus
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N7 versus SIU
The SIU will all be carrying Batarian State Arms, which differs from Alliance weaponry. The SIU's weapons will pack a punch at the cost of reliability. The SIU, operating at its height, would be a solid force. The weapons difference won't matter much as the SIU weapons tend to overheat and run out of ammo quicker, negating their power advantage.
While the SIU has an edge in organizing and mustering elite units, the N7 has the edge in squad tactics as seen in the Reaper wars. N7 and the SIU have tangled before in Torfan, at least in the form of the Blue Suns. N7 came out on top, because N7 seems to be just better at ground tactics than the SIU.
Winner: N7
Asari Commandos versus STG
This will be between 2 forces which prize stealth over force. Although similar in weaponry, the Asari biotics will be pitted against perhaps the best engineering gadgets in the galaxy. It is safe to say that both will even out. However, STG tends to operate on an individual as well as a squad level. And so when the two groups face off initially, any STG stragglers will get owned 1v1 against an Asari Commando.
Finally, although STG are trained as both spies and special forces. Covert operations like renewing the genophage and assassinating unwanted people are their specialty. As seen in Mass Effect 1, they needed N7 backup in order to sabotage Saren's Krogan base, and they suffered a lot of causalities and captured in the attempt. So all this points to Asari Commandos winning.
Winner: Asari Commandos
Aralakh Company versus Turian Blackwatch
Aralakh company will have unique frontal assault tactics with Graal and Claymore shotguns coupled with Krogan Battlemaster tactics; add group coordination to that. The Turians will have a balanced mix of engineering gadgets and long range weapons.
Although the Turian Blackwatch produced Spectres like Saren and they are perhaps even more reliable than anything the unstable Krogans have, the Blackwatch have never faced organized Krogan Battlemasters like Aralakh before. Indeed Aralakh Company is the first time Krogan Battlemaster tactics have been integrated into a unit. And so despite the Turian military discipline, few will be able to stand against a squad of tactical Battlemasters head to head without a significant advantage in another area; there is nothing to indicate the Blackwatch has enough superiority in biotics or technology or numbers to negate the Krogans who each are a match for 10 Turians. Finally, we saw what happened with the Blackwatch when they faced Reaper heavies.
Winner: Aralakh Company
Aralakh Company versus Asari Commandos
A close match. 1 v 1, the individuals will end up drawing like Wrex versus Aleena. However in a squad battle it will come down to the Krogan preference for frontal assault and tactical melee with their shotguns and rifles versus the Asari's hit-and-run coupled with biotic attacks. A close call and can probably go either way and in all instances should be a draw. However, Grunt is in Aralakh Company. His presence alone will give Aralakh Company the very slight edge it needs to win in a protracted engagement.
Winner: Aralakh Company
N7 versus Aralakh Company
Yes I know this will be controversial; and I'll attempt to justify my conclusion as best as I can. The N7 commandos during the Reaper wars improved their squad tactics dramatically. Indeed, they were so improved that they became basically an all purpose special forces unit capable of any role imaginable. Unlike the STG which dabbles in both spycraft and special forces, N7 units are pure military special ops, which means their expertise is focused. They are able to do this because their squad tactics evolved to the point where they could be effective in any role. That is the Alliance N7's main trump card against all other special ops units.
Aralakh Company held their own against a horde of Rachni with just a small squad, but it was only because of Grunt that they were not wiped out. In comparison N7 units succeeded in taking down numerous Brutes and even stood against Reaper units. So what that tells me is the N7 squad will not only be more numerous, but can match Aralakh Company in tenacity. Aralakh Company's tenacity stems from their strength and skill; but N7 tenacity stems from their tactics.
In a 1 v 1 showdown, Aralakh Company will be facing a more numerous N7 squad. Both will have experience dealing with overwhelming odds. But only the N7 tactics have shown the level of versatility that enables them to be effective in all military situations and Aralakh Company will not be able to adapt to the plays N7 throws at them.
Final Winner: Alliance N7
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I decided to add in a few other races which can put up a decent fight, but are not quite in league with the most powerful races.
Geth Primes Geth Prime units are the largest and most powerful Geth infantry in existence. They are elite troops with combat software that boosts other Geth nearby, coordinating and directing attacks. Which means a Geth Prime squadron will augment each other, while also possessing the heaviest infantry weapons the Geth have to offer. Their weaponry includes combat drones, rockets, pulse cannons, light machine guns, and deployable turrets. Finally, they have the most shields and armor of all Geth units; indeed probably all units. Advantage: Most heavily armed, armored, and shielded squadron; each individual unit boosts the combat capabilities of the others.
Drell Assassins The Hanar employ Drell combat specialists throughout the galaxy. Trained at an extremely young age, these Drell are accomplished spies, saboteurs, and assassins. Their techniques range from superb hand to hand combat, stealth, and long ranged marksmanship. During the Reaper war, the Hanar sent teams of these Drell assassins to aid the Alliance war effort, and it is implied that Thane Krios is an accurate gauge of what each Drell assassin is capable of. Basically, few can survive a hit once these guys are sent after you.
Advantage: The most well trained in stealth assassinations and unmatched hand-to-hand combat. Notable Members: Thane Krios
Quarian Migrant Fleet Marines The Migrant Fleet Marines is a military body within the Quarian Migrant Fleet that is tasked with naval-infantry and police operations. In other words they are both marines and SWAT combined. They possess advanced engineering gadgets and the most advanced Quarian weaponry, for example the Reegar Carbine. Being the Migrant Fleet's special forces, the Migrant Fleet Marines are called to do the most dangerous tasks that are required.
Advantage: Specialized weaponry and gadgets that are very powerful against AI. Notable Members: Kal'Reegar
Rachni Brood Warriors Rachni Brood Warriors are the largest and strongest of all Rachni. The hive thus reserves them only in cases where the hive is in danger. The Brood Warriors are unique among Rachni in that they are also biotics as well. Thus you have a squad of biotics who are physically strong and benefit from a hive mind form of communication, which enable them to fight in a coordinated fashion. Finally they are the elder males that mate with the 1 queen; with a population of billions or trillions, you cannot get more alpha status than that.
Advantage: Only race with advanced biotics coupled with actual physical strength. Hive mind coordination.
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Geth Primes versus Rachni Brood Warriors
This is a battle between two squadrons which both rely on hive minds to guide them. The thing with hive minds is that the more you kill, the weaker the whole squad becomes; so whoever will draw first blood will likely be ahead. The Brood Warriors will have and advantage in numbers, being from an insect race with overwhelming population spawning.
However it is shown that biotics do not fare well against armored individuals, although certain attacks like Warp do. Nevertheless, Rachni have traditionally fell prey to heavily armed and armored foes with heavy weaponry, like the Krogan. The Geth Prime essentially mirror those advantages in their heavy weaponry and armor, coupled with heavy shields.
While the Rachni would have a slight advantage in numbers, the Geth also rapidly manufacture replacement units. The Geth Prime units also make up for their relative lack of numbers with the fact that each of them augments the other. Thus, the numbers factor will not mean that much and Geth Prime units are individually stronger and better armed, while resembling the Krogan Battlemasters who destroyed the Rachni.
Winner: Geth Primes
Drell Assassins versus Quarian Migrant Fleet Marines
While Quarians would have the advantage in numbers and weaponry, the Migrant Fleet is not known for its military prowess. Indeed, in both Mass Effect 2 and 3, Migrant Fleet Marines, although brave, always seem to get wiped out while trying to achieve hard objectives. This is not to say they suck, but rather they are not as skilled as other special forces. Finally, the Quarian tech advantage has always been geared towards attacking the Geth. However, the marines will have better engineering gadgets.
On the other hand, Drell Assassins do not have advanced weaponry or anything special. But that does not matter in this case, because their training and superb assassination skills have proven reliable time after time. If Thane Krios is an example of their capabilities as individuals, their actions as a squadron will only mean that the Drell will wipe out the Quarians, many who will not likely know what hit them.
Winner: Drell Assassins
Drell Assassins versus Geth Primes
This is a very close matchup because the Geth Primes can match the agility and dexterity of all organics via superb computing power. Head to head, it is no question that the Geth Primes will have an easy victory. The key is whether they could win if they have to stalk the Drell or be stalked by the Drell. The Geth will also have a slight advantage in numbers, as the lore implies that Drell assassins are few in number. Finally hand-to-hand, the Geth are even stronger than the Drell; good luck punching or slicing through all that shielding and armor.
The fact that the Drell will be outgunned by heavier infantry with better protection, means that the only way for the Drell to win through stealth. However, the Geth are not limited by organic sight and can make use of other methods like UV/Infrared/Radar/Sound/etc. This means the Geth will better negate the Drell stealth abilities. That, coupled with the Geth's hive mind syncing of action and Geth Prime augmenting each other all point towards a Geth Prime victory, albeit likely a painful one.
Final Winner of JV Bracket: Geth Primes
TL;DR
Alliance N7 wins for the main races Geth Primes win for the less powerful ones
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 19, 2019 15:35:20 GMT
None. Because a squad of Space Marines would wipe the floor with all of them. 😜
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 19, 2019 17:01:14 GMT
Volus Biotic God Squad will wipe them all out.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Apr 19, 2019 18:53:48 GMT
I will need some time to think about this. In a 1v1 match, the winner of an actual fight would probably come down to whoever attacks first. In a free-for-all, it would probably come down to whoever gets luckiest, or whoever gets ignored during an initial skirmish.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 20, 2019 0:37:49 GMT
It depends on alot of things. Locations and style of fighting are the big ones. And the number of each squad.
Also I thought rachni just fought in hordes rather then special forces.
Also N7 during the reaper wars took in non humans as well. However if I had to choose one I would say asari commando's.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 20, 2019 1:15:50 GMT
It depends on alot of things. Locations and style of fighting are the big ones. And the number of each squad. Also I thought rachni just fought in hordes rather then special forces. Also N7 during the reaper wars took in non humans as well. However if I had to choose one I would say asari commando's. During the Reaper Wars I believe N7 took in other races to train them right? Rachni do have elite broods apparently haha. I do think location is a big deal. Assuming a level playing field though, I think N7 comes out on top. Also numbers do play a role, but I wanted just a standard squad vs squad; obviously races like the Drell Assassins would have fewer people in a squad. Style of fighting is different for each one, which makes this interesting.
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cyberpunker
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 20, 2019 1:16:21 GMT
I will need some time to think about this. In a 1v1 match, the winner of an actual fight would probably come down to whoever attacks first. In a free-for-all, it would probably come down to whoever gets luckiest, or whoever gets ignored during an initial skirmish. sweet. looking forward to it.
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Post by melbella on Apr 20, 2019 2:58:26 GMT
I voted STG because they would find a way to sabotage their opponents before the fighting ever started.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 20, 2019 8:45:41 GMT
I voted STG because they would find a way to sabotage their opponents before the fighting ever started. Haha fair point. I should have taken that into account. Some sort of pre-fight advantage.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 20, 2019 9:34:49 GMT
Also Hunk would wipe the floor with all of them, because no one can keep down the Grim Reaper or get in the way of his extraction point,not even Mr X. 😉
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 21, 2019 7:24:53 GMT
Volus Biotic God Squad will wipe them all out. Oops I knew I forgot someone! Those Volus biotics. They have so much money that they can easily buy all the red sand in the galaxy...to the doom all others.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Apr 30, 2019 0:10:35 GMT
In modern militaries, special forces are the best soldiers in the world. They have gone through a rigorous selection process, and are given the best training and equipment. In the Mass Effect universe, the various special forces units are much the same, but with more 'space magic'. I find the question of "which race's special forces unit would win in a tournament" hard to judge because how would you construct such a tournament? TOURNAMENT SETUP: In the opening post, the tournament rules include "Assume Squad v Squad scenarios". This rule infers that it will be a bracket tournament system, not a series of "team versus environment" scenarios that would be scored by time or a panel of judges. So we would have to assume that these would be non-lethal team-versus-team combat scenarios, similar to paintball. So this assumes an Armax Arsenal Arena or Pinnacle Station virtual combat arena with non-lethal firearms. The rules also state "Take into account weapon differences if any" so these would have to take into account non-lethal rounds or non-lethal weapon replicas. I repeatedly state "non-lethal" because it is assumed that such a tournament was designed to avoid injuries and death as much as possible while remaining fiercely competitive. One slight change I have to make: I will only consider 8 of the 10 given units for this tournament. Using only eight units allows for a three-round bracket without needing to figure out first-round or second-round byes. Therefore, I will remove two of the following units: - Drell Assassins, on the grounds that one race cannot compete on behalf of another race (in this case, the Hanar)
- Geth Primes, on the grounds that since Artifical Intelligence banned in Citadel space, the Geth are prohibited from competing in the tournament. (Note that Batarians are not a Citadel species any more, but we can fudge their inclusion.) NOTE: It should be noted that Legion was considered a unique platform hosting over a thousand programs. It is unclear if one Geth Prime platform = one Geth program, especially if we want to limit unit size to 12.
- Rachni Brood Warriors, on the grounds that none exist anymore.
Of the preceeding three units, I will eliminate Geth Primes and Rachni Brood Warriors from the tournament. One last thing: Matchups will be based on the order that teams appear in the poll. ASSUMPTIONS: One assumption I will have to make is unit size. We will have to assume that all units are restricted to the same number of soldiers, no more or less. Another assumption I will make: in each tournament match, each team will be at their best. I make this assumption to avoid the 'luck factor'. It also allows me to assume that the winner will be the same for a single-elimination as it would be for a best-of/first-to series. Another assumption: Since I made a previous assumption that such a tournament would be as non-lethal as possible, we will assume that any use of biotics would be banned or strictly limited in how they are to be used in the tournament. Since biotics can potentially injure or kill an opponent, biotics would have to be banned or strictly limited to prevent injury or death of an opponent. One last assumption: Like biotics, tech would also have to be limited to non-lethal uses. ROUND 1: 1. Alliance N7 -versus- Asari Commandos With biotics restricted or banned, the Asari Commandos are entering into the tournament at a disadvantage. The Alliance N7 would also have some biotics in the unit, but only a few members would be affected by this rule. Some tech-heavy users may also be affected by strict tech limits, but these restrictions should affect the Alliance N7 more than it would the Asari Commandos. The Asari have much more vast experience than the human Alliance squad, measuring experience in centuries instead of years. WINNER: Alliance N7. The N7 unit are able to overcome the biotic and tech restrictions, but the biotic restrictions prove to be too detrimental to the Asari Commandos 2. Batarian SIU -versus- Krogan Aralakh Company The Batarians are essentially a third-world, uh,... world, having cut themselves off from the rest of the galaxy. As a result, the Batarians would lack proper resources for training that would be on par with other races, even the Krogan. While Krogan would be more reckless, even non-lethal replicas of their weapons would be devastating. This would be a one-sided fight. WINNER: Krogan Aralakh Company. (For the record, I think all other units in this tournament would beat the Batarians.) 3. Salarian STG -versus- Turian Blackwatch A Turian Blackwatch unit would have few biotics if any, since biotic Turians tend to be put into their own Cabal units. Turians are a more militaristic society, with mandatory military service. This mentality permeates their entire society, with the Turian Blackwatch being exemplary examples of Turian military might. Salarian STG's motto is to win a fight before it even begins. However, that philosphy is impossible in a bracket-style tournament such as this one. Restrictions on tech would also likely hinder the Salarian STG unit more than the Turian Blackwatch unit. The Salarian STG is more capable at fighting than some people give them credit for, but in this bracket, they pulled a bad matchup. WINNER: Turian Blackwatch. 4. Drell Assassins -versus- Quarian Migrant Fleet Marines The Hanar-trained Drell Assassins have been trained since childhood in all matter of combat. While assassins typically operate alone instead of a group, it is not inconceivable that they would occasionally fight as a unit when needed. However, acting as a unit is not their standard method of operation. The Quarian marines on the other hand, are trained as a unit, going up against Geth, pirates, and slavers. Their weakened immune system will not be a factor in this tournament, but the tech restrictions will hurt Quarians more than the Drell. The biotic restrictions are more likely to hurt the Drell than the Quarians, but it is unclear how many Drell are biotic. Biotic Quarians are extremely rare almost to the point of non-existence. WINNER: Quarian Migrant Fleet Marines. The Quarians are used to training fighting more as a unit than the Drell, which gave them the edge in this matchup. ROUND 2: 1. Alliance N7 -versus- Krogan Aralakh Company After an easy first-round matchup, the Krogan are now pitted against a more difficult opponent. Aralakh Company remain the same reckless, fearless group they always are, but now they are up against a better trained, better equipped, and better disciplined group in the Alliance N7. Despite the tech and biotic handicap, the Alliance N7 unit is more disciplined than the Krogan, and would exploit the reckless behavior of the Krogan unit. WINNER: Alliance N7 2. Turian Blackwatch -versus- Quarian Migrant Fleet Marines Battle of the Dextro units! The Quarians would have an edge in tech, but Turians outmatch the Quarians in every other category. This match was never really a contest. WINNER: Turian Blackwatch. ROUND 3 (FINAL ROUND): Alliance N7 -versus- Turian Blackwatch It is a First Contact War/Relay 314 Incident rematch/re-enactment. Who will win? It is a close match, but the Alliance N7 is hampered by the tech and biotic restrictions, and Turian society gives the Turian Blackwatch unit a native edge in unit cohesiveness. WINNER: Turian Blackwatch
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Post by michaeln7 on May 2, 2019 5:33:03 GMT
I would have to say N7.
Sure, that could be species-bias, but the deciding factor for me was how human military "style", if you will, refuses to be categorized.
I almost see 3 out of 6 classes in how the Alliance "gets the job done" regarding warfare: Rapid-response to threats with overwhelming force (Vanguard) Adapts to any situation (Sentinel) Precision strikes on enemy supply lines (Infiltrator)
In a bit of mixed metaphors, I would argue that N7 is the Explorer profile. Sure, there are other specializations that can do some things better, but no one else can do it all proficiently on-the-fly.
Do Asari have better biotics? Yes Do Salarians have better tech? Yes Do Turians have better discipline in combat? Yes Etc.
But Alliance N7 have no real weaknesses in any regard, and can bring whatever tactics needed to the table in response to the threat.
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cyberpunker
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 168 Likes: 117
inherit
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0
117
cyberpunker
168
Apr 19, 2019 10:09:49 GMT
April 2019
cyberpunker1088
https://web.archive.org/web/20160730023122im_/http://orig00.deviantart.net/0f5b/f/2015/290/e/e/untitled_5_by_lungsal-d9ddqkw.png
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by cyberpunker on May 4, 2019 10:17:55 GMT
In modern militaries, special forces are the best soldiers in the world. They have gone through a rigorous selection process, and are given the best training and equipment. In the Mass Effect universe, the various special forces units are much the same, but with more 'space magic'. I find the question of "which race's special forces unit would win in a tournament" hard to judge because how would you construct such a tournament? TOURNAMENT SETUP: In the opening post, the tournament rules include "Assume Squad v Squad scenarios". This rule infers that it will be a bracket tournament system, not a series of "team versus environment" scenarios that would be scored by time or a panel of judges. So we would have to assume that these would be non-lethal team-versus-team combat scenarios, similar to paintball. So this assumes an Armax Arsenal Arena or Pinnacle Station virtual combat arena with non-lethal firearms. The rules also state "Take into account weapon differences if any" so these would have to take into account non-lethal rounds or non-lethal weapon replicas. I repeatedly state "non-lethal" because it is assumed that such a tournament was designed to avoid injuries and death as much as possible while remaining fiercely competitive. One slight change I have to make: I will only consider 8 of the 10 given units for this tournament. Using only eight units allows for a three-round bracket without needing to figure out first-round or second-round byes. Therefore, I will remove two of the following units: - Drell Assassins, on the grounds that one race cannot compete on behalf of another race (in this case, the Hanar)
- Geth Primes, on the grounds that since Artifical Intelligence banned in Citadel space, the Geth are prohibited from competing in the tournament. (Note that Batarians are not a Citadel species any more, but we can fudge their inclusion.) NOTE: It should be noted that Legion was considered a unique platform hosting over a thousand programs. It is unclear if one Geth Prime platform = one Geth program, especially if we want to limit unit size to 12.
- Rachni Brood Warriors, on the grounds that none exist anymore.
Of the preceeding three units, I will eliminate Geth Primes and Rachni Brood Warriors from the tournament. One last thing: Matchups will be based on the order that teams appear in the poll. ASSUMPTIONS: One assumption I will have to make is unit size. We will have to assume that all units are restricted to the same number of soldiers, no more or less. Another assumption I will make: in each tournament match, each team will be at their best. I make this assumption to avoid the 'luck factor'. It also allows me to assume that the winner will be the same for a single-elimination as it would be for a best-of/first-to series. Another assumption: Since I made a previous assumption that such a tournament would be as non-lethal as possible, we will assume that any use of biotics would be banned or strictly limited in how they are to be used in the tournament. Since biotics can potentially injure or kill an opponent, biotics would have to be banned or strictly limited to prevent injury or death of an opponent. One last assumption: Like biotics, tech would also have to be limited to non-lethal uses. ROUND 1: 1. Alliance N7 -versus- Asari Commandos With biotics restricted or banned, the Asari Commandos are entering into the tournament at a disadvantage. The Alliance N7 would also have some biotics in the unit, but only a few members would be affected by this rule. Some tech-heavy users may also be affected by strict tech limits, but these restrictions should affect the Alliance N7 more than it would the Asari Commandos. The Asari have much more vast experience than the human Alliance squad, measuring experience in centuries instead of years. WINNER: Alliance N7. The N7 unit are able to overcome the biotic and tech restrictions, but the biotic restrictions prove to be too detrimental to the Asari Commandos 2. Batarian SIU -versus- Krogan Aralakh Company The Batarians are essentially a third-world, uh,... world, having cut themselves off from the rest of the galaxy. As a result, the Batarians would lack proper resources for training that would be on par with other races, even the Krogan. While Krogan would be more reckless, even non-lethal replicas of their weapons would be devastating. This would be a one-sided fight. WINNER: Krogan Aralakh Company. (For the record, I think all other units in this tournament would beat the Batarians.) 3. Salarian STG -versus- Turian Blackwatch A Turian Blackwatch unit would have few biotics if any, since biotic Turians tend to be put into their own Cabal units. Turians are a more militaristic society, with mandatory military service. This mentality permeates their entire society, with the Turian Blackwatch being exemplary examples of Turian military might. Salarian STG's motto is to win a fight before it even begins. However, that philosphy is impossible in a bracket-style tournament such as this one. Restrictions on tech would also likely hinder the Salarian STG unit more than the Turian Blackwatch unit. The Salarian STG is more capable at fighting than some people give them credit for, but in this bracket, they pulled a bad matchup. WINNER: Turian Blackwatch. 4. Drell Assassins -versus- Quarian Migrant Fleet Marines The Hanar-trained Drell Assassins have been trained since childhood in all matter of combat. While assassins typically operate alone instead of a group, it is not inconceivable that they would occasionally fight as a unit when needed. However, acting as a unit is not their standard method of operation. The Quarian marines on the other hand, are trained as a unit, going up against Geth, pirates, and slavers. Their weakened immune system will not be a factor in this tournament, but the tech restrictions will hurt Quarians more than the Drell. The biotic restrictions are more likely to hurt the Drell than the Quarians, but it is unclear how many Drell are biotic. Biotic Quarians are extremely rare almost to the point of non-existence. WINNER: Quarian Migrant Fleet Marines. The Quarians are used to training fighting more as a unit than the Drell, which gave them the edge in this matchup. ROUND 2: 1. Alliance N7 -versus- Krogan Aralakh Company After an easy first-round matchup, the Krogan are now pitted against a more difficult opponent. Aralakh Company remain the same reckless, fearless group they always are, but now they are up against a better trained, better equipped, and better disciplined group in the Alliance N7. Despite the tech and biotic handicap, the Alliance N7 unit is more disciplined than the Krogan, and would exploit the reckless behavior of the Krogan unit. WINNER: Alliance N7 2. Turian Blackwatch -versus- Quarian Migrant Fleet Marines Battle of the Dextro units! The Quarians would have an edge in tech, but Turians outmatch the Quarians in every other category. This match was never really a contest. WINNER: Turian Blackwatch. ROUND 3 (FINAL ROUND): Alliance N7 -versus- Turian Blackwatch It is a First Contact War/Relay 314 Incident rematch/re-enactment. Who will win? It is a close match, but the Alliance N7 is hampered by the tech and biotic restrictions, and Turian society gives the Turian Blackwatch unit a native edge in unit cohesiveness. WINNER: Turian Blackwatch Nice. Question though, I get that you can assume non-lethality. But that is no reason to exclude the most powerful biotics or tech. Under an arena simulation, the most powerful biotics or tech would still work, just as a non-lethal simulation. I would totally do a 10 team bracket as I did above because the Arena is just a simulation and so could indeed simulate Rachni and Geth. I also think that The Alliance N7 have come a long way since the Contact War. So yes Turians are more disciplined as a whole, but in terms of tech and biotics, Alliance have caught up. N7 also has more flexibility and better utilization of combined squad roles in their tactics (as opposed to putting biotics in "Cabal" units and not using them in tandem with the Blackwatch) I do think the Batarian SIU, judging from the success of their methods via the Blue Suns, would be a very hard challenge for even the Turian Blackwatch. I agree that 1v1 Turian Blackwatch operative outclasses SIU. I agree also that equal members of squad vs squad SIU loses too b/c Blackwatch would be far better pound for pound. SIU is interesting b/c I suspect that they would show up with more guys though, in any given situation. Out of all the special forces, I think the Batarians have found a way to come as close as possible to mass producing Special Forces. Even in the real world, nobody can do that. But the success of the Blue Suns hints that the SIU has the potential to train more people than all the others. Which in a realistic scenario, there would be a smaller number of Turian Blackwatch operatives versus SIU. The outcome then would be in doubt. Turians might have more reliable weaponry, but Batarian State Arms really packs a punch. It would come down to just how much force can the SIU bring to the field to overwhelm the Blackwatch. Interesting thought.
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RedCaesar97
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Aug 28, 2016 19:33:39 GMT
August 2016
redcaesar97
Mass Effect Trilogy, Jade Empire
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Post by RedCaesar97 on May 4, 2019 13:16:57 GMT
Nice. Question though: 1. I get that you can assume non-lethality. But that is no reason to exclude the most powerful biotics or tech. Under an arena simulation, the most powerful biotics or tech would still work, just as a non-lethal simulation. 2. I would totally do a 10 team bracket as I did above because the Arena is just a simulation and so could indeed simulate Rachni and Geth. 3. I also think that The Alliance N7 have come a long way since the Contact War. So yes Turians are more disciplined as a whole, but in terms of tech and biotics, Alliance have caught up. N7 also has more flexibility and better utilization of combined squad roles in their tactics (as opposed to putting biotics in "Cabal" units and not using them in tandem with the Blackwatch) 4. I do think the Batarian SIU, judging from the success of their methods via the Blue Suns, would be a very hard challenge for even the Turian Blackwatch. I agree that 1v1 Turian Blackwatch operative outclasses SIU. I agree also that equal members of squad vs squad SIU loses too b/c Blackwatch would be far better pound for pound. SIU is interesting b/c I suspect that they would show up with more guys though, in any given situation. Out of all the special forces, I think the Batarians have found a way to come as close as possible to mass producing Special Forces. Even in the real world, nobody can do that. But the success of the Blue Suns hints that the SIU has the potential to train more people than all the others. Which in a realistic scenario, there would be a smaller number of Turian Blackwatch operatives versus SIU. The outcome then would be in doubt. Turians might have more reliable weaponry, but Batarian State Arms really packs a punch. It would come down to just how much force can the SIU bring to the field to overwhelm the Blackwatch. Interesting thought. I will answer your question and provide additional clarification on your other comments. I've numbered your questions and comments above for clarity. 1. Since you asked about a tournament, I would have to assume this tournament needs to enact some form of rules to govern the competition. I had to make the assumption that this tournament was organized and run in such a way that all competing worlds would allow their special forces units to compete head-to-head. That means non-lethal with as much reduced risk of injury as possible. Each species' government has sunk millions or billions of credits into each special forces soldier (training and equipment), so there is no way they would risk those soldiers in a tournament that was a series of deathmatches. Therefore, non-lethal tournament with as little risk to injury as possible. To prevent injury and death requires limits or restrictions with what you can do with biotics and tech. From the ME1 codex, there are three branches of biotics: - TELEKINESIS uses mass-lowering fields to levitate or impel objects. - Mass-raising KINETIC FIELDS are used to block or pin objects - DISTORTION uses rapidly-shifting mass fields to shred objects Unless you restrict or limit biotics in some way, Telekinesis and Distortion biotics run the risk of harming or killing opponents. We see several examples of these biotics in the games and books. The lore (I think in the codex) states something like biotic users can put on two or three 'impressive' displays of biotics before they are exhausted. This lore is side-stepped in-game to improve the gameplay loop. We also see some 'impressive' displays of biotics in game cutscenes, almost to a comical degree (Jack in ME2 when she destroys 2-3 YMIR mechs, some Asari in Mass Effect Andromeda with massive barriers). Tech in the Mass Effect universe is much more nebulous, and can essentially boil down to "what do we need tech to do?". But tech can also do harm so it would also need to be limited or restricted in some way. It should also be noted in game, biotics started stretching or breaking the lore as the series progressed, and tech changed a bit from ME1 to ME2, and morphed again in ME3. "Tech" could also apply to various 'combat' abilities in the games. By removing or restricting biotics and tech, I am most certainly restricting or removing primary abilities or differentiators from various units. There is no way to avoid that if I am to make this tournament non-lethal. Arena simulations such as Armax Arsenal Arena or Pinnacle Station are player versus environment, not player versus player. They are designed to be non-lethal because you have an organic team competing against a virtual/simulated opponent. As soon as you pit two teams against each other, it is no longer simulated. Hence, the need to limit biotics, tech, and weapons to avoid injury or death. 2. To do a proper single-elimination bracket tournament, the number of teams/individuals in the bracket need to be an exponent of 2 (2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64...). Otherwise, certain teams or individuals will get a bye into the next round. Take American Football for example. In the National Football League (NFL), you have a regular season, followed by a single-elimination bracket tournament to determine the winner of that season. In the NFL playoffs, some teams based on their regular season record will get a first-round bye, meaning they will skip the first round and then play their first playoff game in the second round. For this though exercise, it was easier to immediately eliminate 2 of the 10 teams (to get 8 teams), then it was to try to determine who gets a bye and where in the tournament bracket. 3. Turians tend to move their biotics into their own Cabals, but there is nothing to suggest that biotics are prevented from becoming members of Blackwatch. We have no way of knowing how many biotics are actually in Blackwatch. Cabals are essentially biotic-only military units, but Blackwatch can draw from any lesser military unit. 4. Do not confuse mercenary bands that have Batarian members, with the Batarian SIU. The Blue Suns are a Private Military Corporation (PMC), as are the Eclipse, Blood Pack, Talons, and so on. PMCs are privately-owned and operated; they are not run by a world/government-associated military. PMCs exist in our current world; PMCs in Mass Effect operate on similar principles. Now, that is not to say that PMCs cannot be used by governments; they most certainly can be. Governments can use PMCs as a cheaper alternative to using their own militaries for some conflicts or 'peace-keeping' measures (with all the plausible deniability), or used for state-sponsored terrorism. Modern special forces units undergo extensive training, including: extensive weapons training, environment training, tactics, and so on. Special Forces in the Mass Effect universe are like our modern special forces except on steroids; think zero/low/heavy-gravity training. Special forces are have specialists like snipers, demolitions, and communications; same would be true in Mass Effect but also on steroids such as various tech and biotic specialties. PMCs will have training and equipment, but special forces will have millions or billions of credits poured into them. PMCs are corporations that need to make a profit to survive; special forces have a budget pulled from a larger military budget pulled from a single government source of income (taxes). Batarian SIU is greater than all PMCs, but that does not mean that the Batarian SIU is on par with other special forces units. = = = For the record, a deathmatch tournament would play out much differently, but there are too many unknown variables at that point to predict a winner. It could just boil down to "who shot first"? For example, the Asari Commandos could just overwhelm their opponents with superior biotics each time, unless "damping" is still a thing, at which point their opponents would win. Or maybe the Asari Commandos attack the Salarians, only to discover they just "killed" decoys and the Salarians win. Taking off the limiters makes it really hard to determine who is actually better, but no limiters = death, and I did not think this was meant to be a deathmatch.
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cyberpunker
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 168 Likes: 117
inherit
11165
0
117
cyberpunker
168
Apr 19, 2019 10:09:49 GMT
April 2019
cyberpunker1088
https://web.archive.org/web/20160730023122im_/http://orig00.deviantart.net/0f5b/f/2015/290/e/e/untitled_5_by_lungsal-d9ddqkw.png
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by cyberpunker on May 6, 2019 4:08:39 GMT
Nice. Question though: 1. I get that you can assume non-lethality. But that is no reason to exclude the most powerful biotics or tech. Under an arena simulation, the most powerful biotics or tech would still work, just as a non-lethal simulation. 2. I would totally do a 10 team bracket as I did above because the Arena is just a simulation and so could indeed simulate Rachni and Geth. 3. I also think that The Alliance N7 have come a long way since the Contact War. So yes Turians are more disciplined as a whole, but in terms of tech and biotics, Alliance have caught up. N7 also has more flexibility and better utilization of combined squad roles in their tactics (as opposed to putting biotics in "Cabal" units and not using them in tandem with the Blackwatch) 4. I do think the Batarian SIU, judging from the success of their methods via the Blue Suns, would be a very hard challenge for even the Turian Blackwatch. I agree that 1v1 Turian Blackwatch operative outclasses SIU. I agree also that equal members of squad vs squad SIU loses too b/c Blackwatch would be far better pound for pound. SIU is interesting b/c I suspect that they would show up with more guys though, in any given situation. Out of all the special forces, I think the Batarians have found a way to come as close as possible to mass producing Special Forces. Even in the real world, nobody can do that. But the success of the Blue Suns hints that the SIU has the potential to train more people than all the others. Which in a realistic scenario, there would be a smaller number of Turian Blackwatch operatives versus SIU. The outcome then would be in doubt. Turians might have more reliable weaponry, but Batarian State Arms really packs a punch. It would come down to just how much force can the SIU bring to the field to overwhelm the Blackwatch. Interesting thought. I will answer your question and provide additional clarification on your other comments. I've numbered your questions and comments above for clarity. 1. Since you asked about a tournament, I would have to assume this tournament needs to enact some form of rules to govern the competition. I had to make the assumption that this tournament was organized and run in such a way that all competing worlds would allow their special forces units to compete head-to-head. That means non-lethal with as much reduced risk of injury as possible. Each species' government has sunk millions or billions of credits into each special forces soldier (training and equipment), so there is no way they would risk those soldiers in a tournament that was a series of deathmatches. Therefore, non-lethal tournament with as little risk to injury as possible. To prevent injury and death requires limits or restrictions with what you can do with biotics and tech. From the ME1 codex, there are three branches of biotics: - TELEKINESIS uses mass-lowering fields to levitate or impel objects. - Mass-raising KINETIC FIELDS are used to block or pin objects - DISTORTION uses rapidly-shifting mass fields to shred objects Unless you restrict or limit biotics in some way, Telekinesis and Distortion biotics run the risk of harming or killing opponents. We see several examples of these biotics in the games and books. The lore (I think in the codex) states something like biotic users can put on two or three 'impressive' displays of biotics before they are exhausted. This lore is side-stepped in-game to improve the gameplay loop. We also see some 'impressive' displays of biotics in game cutscenes, almost to a comical degree (Jack in ME2 when she destroys 2-3 YMIR mechs, some Asari in Mass Effect Andromeda with massive barriers). Tech in the Mass Effect universe is much more nebulous, and can essentially boil down to "what do we need tech to do?". But tech can also do harm so it would also need to be limited or restricted in some way. It should also be noted in game, biotics started stretching or breaking the lore as the series progressed, and tech changed a bit from ME1 to ME2, and morphed again in ME3. "Tech" could also apply to various 'combat' abilities in the games. By removing or restricting biotics and tech, I am most certainly restricting or removing primary abilities or differentiators from various units. There is no way to avoid that if I am to make this tournament non-lethal. Arena simulations such as Armax Arsenal Arena or Pinnacle Station are player versus environment, not player versus player. They are designed to be non-lethal because you have an organic team competing against a virtual/simulated opponent. As soon as you pit two teams against each other, it is no longer simulated. Hence, the need to limit biotics, tech, and weapons to avoid injury or death. 2. To do a proper single-elimination bracket tournament, the number of teams/individuals in the bracket need to be an exponent of 2 (2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64...). Otherwise, certain teams or individuals will get a bye into the next round. Take American Football for example. In the National Football League (NFL), you have a regular season, followed by a single-elimination bracket tournament to determine the winner of that season. In the NFL playoffs, some teams based on their regular season record will get a first-round bye, meaning they will skip the first round and then play their first playoff game in the second round. For this though exercise, it was easier to immediately eliminate 2 of the 10 teams (to get 8 teams), then it was to try to determine who gets a bye and where in the tournament bracket. 3. Turians tend to move their biotics into their own Cabals, but there is nothing to suggest that biotics are prevented from becoming members of Blackwatch. We have no way of knowing how many biotics are actually in Blackwatch. Cabals are essentially biotic-only military units, but Blackwatch can draw from any lesser military unit. 4. Do not confuse mercenary bands that have Batarian members, with the Batarian SIU. The Blue Suns are a Private Military Corporation (PMC), as are the Eclipse, Blood Pack, Talons, and so on. PMCs are privately-owned and operated; they are not run by a world/government-associated military. PMCs exist in our current world; PMCs in Mass Effect operate on similar principles. Now, that is not to say that PMCs cannot be used by governments; they most certainly can be. Governments can use PMCs as a cheaper alternative to using their own militaries for some conflicts or 'peace-keeping' measures (with all the plausible deniability), or used for state-sponsored terrorism. Modern special forces units undergo extensive training, including: extensive weapons training, environment training, tactics, and so on. Special Forces in the Mass Effect universe are like our modern special forces except on steroids; think zero/low/heavy-gravity training. Special forces are have specialists like snipers, demolitions, and communications; same would be true in Mass Effect but also on steroids such as various tech and biotic specialties. PMCs will have training and equipment, but special forces will have millions or billions of credits poured into them. PMCs are corporations that need to make a profit to survive; special forces have a budget pulled from a larger military budget pulled from a single government source of income (taxes). Batarian SIU is greater than all PMCs, but that does not mean that the Batarian SIU is on par with other special forces units. = = = For the record, a deathmatch tournament would play out much differently, but there are too many unknown variables at that point to predict a winner. It could just boil down to "who shot first"? For example, the Asari Commandos could just overwhelm their opponents with superior biotics each time, unless "damping" is still a thing, at which point their opponents would win. Or maybe the Asari Commandos attack the Salarians, only to discover they just "killed" decoys and the Salarians win. Taking off the limiters makes it really hard to determine who is actually better, but no limiters = death, and I did not think this was meant to be a deathmatch. 1. True. I'm saying imagine the Arena except where abilities/weapons/etc. are all somehow made non-lethal? 2. Byes would be assumed true. Nothing wrong with that though, in that a tournament aims to find the best team anyways. So long as there is ample rest in between. 3. Regarding Turian Cabals, I am under the impression that Turians send ALL their biotics into Cabal units. This is a disadvantage in the same way an all tank brigade is a disadvantage. Combined arms shores up weaknesses and amplifies the strength of each combat role. The Alliance N7 is the only unit to really do this to the fullest, while the Turian Blackwatch does not have any biotics in game and I think all Turian biotics are sent to Cabal units. 4. I know that the Blue Suns are not the same as the SIU. But the Blue Suns train exactly like the SIU, with former SIU members starting the Blue Suns. Basically, the Blue Suns have copied and pasted the SIU source code into their regimen. Yes, PMC never gets the latest tech, funding, or candidates. So the Blue Suns are at best a flawed imitation of the Batarian SIU. However, the fact that the Blue Suns managed to out muscle the Blood Pack and Eclipse (both have former Asari Commandos and Krogan Battlemasters), shows that the SIU training is something special. Real life Special Forces in 3rd world countries, no matter how closely they model themselves after their ideal units and no matter if they hire former Spec Forces to train them, do not come close to the combat effectiveness of the Navy Seals or SAS. The fact that that former SIU operatives can copy & paste their training into the Blue Suns, have it be followed exactly to the letter, and have the Blue Suns become dominant, shows that the SIU might not have the best squads or combat effectiveness (much less the best weapons and training); but rather that the Batarian SIU seems to be able to standardize special forces training. A feat that is very impressive.
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