Syv
N3
Posts: 770 Likes: 2,390
inherit
2079
0
Nov 14, 2016 15:32:17 GMT
2,390
Syv
770
Nov 13, 2016 18:49:33 GMT
November 2016
syv
|
Post by Syv on Jun 2, 2019 16:27:24 GMT
Krem being born a woman under the Qunari would, as we first have the Qun explained and perceived throughout two games, Krem would at first have been put into the roles of a female Says who? This illustrates a key assumption a lot of people here seem to be making - and frankly, I think it may be a major source of the misunderstanding. If we take Sten's words verbatim, gender is defined purely by vocational assignment. That would imply that the gender of a qunari individual is indeterminate up until the point where the Tamassran assigns that individual to a role. The point at which the Tamassran assigns vocation would be the gender reveal analogue in qunari world. That reasoning makes no sense, whatsoever. I think you guys are the one making up your mind, liyng to yourself, desesperate with power fantasy, desesperate to believe that gender doesn't play a role. So now the Tasmarans determinate gender by vocation ? Even more dumb, they have to wait for years and years waiting for the babies to become children, and for the children to learn their place first with the Qun, and finally to test them as young adults before deciding what gender they are thanks to vocation assigned ? How do you apply this ? " I don't understand, you look like a woman. You are a grey warden, so it follows you can't be a woman. It totally contradicts what you are saying. Why he doesn't understand ? If that was the case he wouldn't be bothered she is female, he wouldn't have to point out that the warden looks like a woman ( close to the Qunari women he saw ), meaning first that he does know the difference of gender based on biology, so with female attributes, and second that since being a warden and then a warrior should be what determinate the gender according to you, he shouldn't have been confused and bothered that she fights or is a warrior since according to what you are claiming, her role already assigned, she would be already male in his mind. Why is he only bothering all the female members, and not Alistair, and Zevran ? Why my male warden which doesn't have any different dialogue and behavior with my female warden isn't bothered like my female warden is ? Why all that content about women is only for the female one ? What is the difference between the two ? Seems to me that the difference of biology, so gender is what triggers him.
Morrigan, Wynn and Leliana, and even my own female warden have all different personalities, what is the only thing they have in common ? Their gender. The only thing that Sten has ever pointed out is that the roles and purpose are determined by the leaders of the Qunari, he never mentioned gender and nature, that he aknowledges himself by the way. A person is born Qunari or human, or elven, or dwarf. he doesn't choose that. The size of his hands, whether he is clever or foolish, the land he comes from, the color of his hair. These are beyond his control. We do not choose, we simply are. "
On the opposite, he is saying that you don't choose your nature, you simply are, meaning you are born in a way and that's it, so not even birth would be determined by yourself or others. And from that nature, that of individuals, the Qunari leaders, would make up their mind about what each is able to do, even if it is biased and wrong according to different point of views.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 2, 2019 17:09:54 GMT
Red Lyrium is a retcon because in the first game it only came in blue. Purely for the sake of argument, if in fact Red Lyrium did not exist (in the DA Bible, the super secret hidden truth behind everything) when DAO was released, and was invented only in the timeframe of the creation of DA2, does that count as a retcon? I could see arguments either way.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 2, 2019 17:16:16 GMT
I think you guys are the one making up your mind, liyng to yourself, desesperate with power fantasy, desesperate to believe that gender doesn't play a role. Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, Pot. You seem to be pretty vehemently attached to the notion that the genatalia one is born with has some kind of deep significance, some ultimate undeniable truth, and you seem extremely threatened by any questioning of that attachment. The whole point of all this stuff about the Qun and the criticism and/or examination of facets of the Qun (Krem) is to turn that 1950's worldview on its head. Both pre and post DAI. You think David Gaider is totally on board with your interpretation of the facts of life and gender? Don't make me laugh.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,882 Likes: 49,344
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,344
Iakus
20,882
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Jun 2, 2019 17:18:08 GMT
I think you guys are the one making up your mind, liyng to yourself, desesperate with power fantasy, desesperate to believe that gender doesn't play a role. Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, Pot. You seem to be pretty vehemently attached to the notion that the genatalia one is born with has some kind of deep significance, some ultimate undeniable truth, and you seem extremely threatened by any questioning of that attachment. The whole point of all this stuff about the Qun and the criticism and/or examination of facets of the Qun (Krem) is to turn that 1950's worldview on its head. Both pre and post DAI. You think David Gaider is totally on board with your interpretation of the facts of life and gender? Don't make me laugh. Gee I thought RL politics was forbidden on this forum... Maybe it's just okay when attacking certain posters? (who had NOT brought RL into the debate, just the Qun)
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 2, 2019 17:24:02 GMT
Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, Pot. You seem to be pretty vehemently attached to the notion that the genatalia one is born with has some kind of deep significance, some ultimate undeniable truth, and you seem extremely threatened by any questioning of that attachment. The whole point of all this stuff about the Qun and the criticism and/or examination of facets of the Qun (Krem) is to turn that 1950's worldview on its head. Both pre and post DAI. You think David Gaider is totally on board with your interpretation of the facts of life and gender? Don't make me laugh. Gee I thought RL politics was forbidden on this forum... Maybe it's just okay when attacking certain posters? (who had NOT brought RL into the debate, just the Qun) "I think you guys are the one making up your mind, liyng to yourself, desesperate with power fantasy, desesperate to believe that gender doesn't play a role." So, Syv makes an RL politics comment, and you let that go without comment -- hell, you give it a like. I reply in kind, and you call me out on it? A bit selective, don't you think?
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,882 Likes: 49,344
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,344
Iakus
20,882
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Jun 2, 2019 17:28:17 GMT
Gee I thought RL politics was forbidden on this forum... Maybe it's just okay when attacking certain posters? (who had NOT brought RL into the debate, just the Qun) "I think you guys are the one making up your mind, liyng to yourself, desesperate with power fantasy, desesperate to believe that gender doesn't play a role." So, Syv makes an RL politics comment, and you let that go without comment -- hell, you give it a like. I reply in kind, and you call me out on it? A bit selective, don't you think? He is pointing out Sten's observations, and how illogical it is that the Tamassrans would know from birth a given Qunari's talents. We are talking about the Qunri, not Syv, not me. YOU are the one making this personal. Reported.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 2, 2019 17:32:17 GMT
"I think you guys are the one making up your mind, liyng to yourself, desesperate with power fantasy, desesperate to believe that gender doesn't play a role." So, Syv makes an RL politics comment, and you let that go without comment -- hell, you give it a like. I reply in kind, and you call me out on it? A bit selective, don't you think? He is pointing out Sten's observations, and how illogical it is that the Tamassrans would know from birth a given Qunari's talents. We are talking about the Qunri, not Syv, not me. YOU are the one making this personal. Reported. C'mon now, you can't be that obtuse. He literally said "you guys." He made it personal. And if you read all of his comments in this thread, you'll see they are consistent with making it personal and with grounding his arguments in his personal beliefs about gender and sex. What I wrote is no different in kind or degree than what he wrote -- the context of the Qun is there in my comment as well. So are you reporting his posts too? Don't be such an obvious hypocrite.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,882 Likes: 49,344
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,344
Iakus
20,882
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Jun 2, 2019 17:41:18 GMT
He is pointing out Sten's observations, and how illogical it is that the Tamassrans would know from birth a given Qunari's talents. We are talking about the Qunri, not Syv, not me. YOU are the one making this personal. Reported. C'mon now, you can't be that obtuse. He literally said "you guys." He made it personal. And if you read all of his comments in this thread, you'll see they are consistent with making it personal and with grounding his arguments in his personal beliefs about gender and sex. What I wrote is no different in kind or degree than what he wrote -- the context of the Qun is there in my comment as well. So are you reporting his posts too? Don't be such an obvious hypocrite. Orly? "You guys" = ? Care to change your BS response?
|
|
Polka Dot
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 679 Likes: 1,207
inherit
10957
0
Feb 14, 2019 20:07:41 GMT
1,207
Polka Dot
679
Feb 14, 2019 18:50:29 GMT
February 2019
polkadot
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Polka Dot on Jun 2, 2019 17:53:37 GMT
So now the Tasmarans determinate gender by vocation ? Even more dumb, they have to wait for years and years waiting for the babies to become children, and for the children to learn their place first with the Qun, and finally to test them as young adults before deciding what gender they are thanks to vocation assigned ? Is there some reason why they'd need to define gender prior to vocational assignment? Correct. The Tamrassan assign vocation presumably based on the individual's aptitude, expressed interests and skills and perhaps current needs of the community.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 2, 2019 17:56:48 GMT
Your ability to read selectively is astonishing. What did he say after the you guys part? You don't see anything in the part I quoted that also strikes you as worthy of underlining and highlighting as just maybe being a bit personal and judgmental? Hint: "lying to yourself" and "desperate with power fantasy." That doesn't cross the line for you? Here are some more Syv quotes from this thread, in case your blinders influenced-by-what-you-agree-with missed them: "You guys are blind or what ?" Or, "You are having rose tinted glasses at this point." Or, "You guy sometimes try too hard ... believing like sheeps, despite the evidences in front of their eyes. It's getting old." Or, "But if they remove their rose tinted glasses, if you are intellectually honest"
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,882 Likes: 49,344
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,344
Iakus
20,882
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Jun 2, 2019 18:19:54 GMT
Your ability to read selectively is astonishing. What did he say after the you guys part? You don't see anything in the part I quoted that also strikes you as worthy of underlining and highlighting as just maybe being a bit personal and judgmental? Hint: "lying to yourself" and "desperate with power fantasy." That doesn't cross the line for you? Here are some more Syv quotes from this thread, in case your blinders influenced-by-what-you-agree-with missed them: "You guys are blind or what ?" Or, "You are having rose tinted glasses at this point." Or, "You guy sometimes try too hard ... believing like sheeps, despite the evidences in front of their eyes. It's getting old." Or, "But if they remove their rose tinted glasses, if you are intellectually honest" And those are politically motivated how, exactly? You might have a case for rudeness, but Sofa and his buddies have outright forbidden political talk. Syv has been pointing out how the Qun was presented, with quotes and everything, without injecting his own thoughts into the matter. YOU, however, are accusing him of having "1950s worldview" for daring to point out inconsistencies.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,882 Likes: 49,344
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,344
Iakus
20,882
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Jun 2, 2019 18:20:45 GMT
So now the Tasmarans determinate gender by vocation ? Even more dumb, they have to wait for years and years waiting for the babies to become children, and for the children to learn their place first with the Qun, and finally to test them as young adults before deciding what gender they are thanks to vocation assigned ? Is there some reason why they'd need to define gender prior to vocational assignment? Correct. The Tamrassan assign vocation presumably based on the individual's aptitude, expressed interests and skills and perhaps current needs of the community. And, given the quote, physical traits.
|
|
Syv
N3
Posts: 770 Likes: 2,390
inherit
2079
0
Nov 14, 2016 15:32:17 GMT
2,390
Syv
770
Nov 13, 2016 18:49:33 GMT
November 2016
syv
|
Post by Syv on Jun 2, 2019 18:40:18 GMT
I think you guys are the one making up your mind, liyng to yourself, desesperate with power fantasy, desesperate to believe that gender doesn't play a role. Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, Pot. You seem to be pretty vehemently attached to the notion that the genatalia one is born with has some kind of deep significance, some ultimate undeniable truth, and you seem extremely threatened by any questioning of that attachment. The whole point of all this stuff about the Qun and the criticism and/or examination of facets of the Qun (Krem) is to turn that 1950's worldview on its head. Both pre and post DAI. You think David Gaider is totally on board with your interpretation of the facts of life and gender? Don't make me laugh. thank you for the laugh. Lol. So that's it ? That's all you have to answer to a totally reasonable post based on logic and content and sentences from the game ? That's weak. I'm waiting for you to answer me and give me your arguments why I am wrong. You basically ignored everything just to accuse me of things I don't really care. It's been several pages that your only arguments are " you guys are just making up your mind ", " you guys are unreasonable " whithout arguments from the game behind, except the post I quoted. I do at least that effort unlike you. Give me your reasoning based on the content we have on DAO. Prove I am wrong. We are debating. I am not attached to anything, I have my point on view based on logic. I try to make sense of things. The content only available to a female warden first, the sentences from Sten, the fact that only the female memebers are concerned not the males ones ? it does indicate me I am right. I am waiting for you to tell me why I am wrong, not saying bullshit as a diversion. I am not the one who created the Qunari, I am not the one who wrote Sten.
|
|
Syv
N3
Posts: 770 Likes: 2,390
inherit
2079
0
Nov 14, 2016 15:32:17 GMT
2,390
Syv
770
Nov 13, 2016 18:49:33 GMT
November 2016
syv
|
Post by Syv on Jun 2, 2019 18:44:24 GMT
Your ability to read selectively is astonishing. What did he say after the you guys part? You don't see anything in the part I quoted that also strikes you as worthy of underlining and highlighting as just maybe being a bit personal and judgmental? Hint: "lying to yourself" and "desperate with power fantasy." That doesn't cross the line for you? Here are some more Syv quotes from this thread, in case your blinders influenced-by-what-you-agree-with missed them: "You guys are blind or what ?" Or, "You are having rose tinted glasses at this point." Or, "You guy sometimes try too hard ... believing like sheeps, despite the evidences in front of their eyes. It's getting old." Or, "But if they remove their rose tinted glasses, if you are intellectually honest" And those are politically motivated how, exactly? You might have a case for rudeness, but Sofa and his buddies have outright forbidden political talk. Syv has been pointing out how the Qun was presented, with quotes and everything, without injecting his own thoughts into the matter. YOU, however, are accusing him of having "1950s worldview" for daring to point out inconsistencies. Yeah, thank you. My personal thoughts have absolutely nothing to do with the way the Qunari are portrayed and how I think they were written.
|
|
Polka Dot
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 679 Likes: 1,207
inherit
10957
0
Feb 14, 2019 20:07:41 GMT
1,207
Polka Dot
679
Feb 14, 2019 18:50:29 GMT
February 2019
polkadot
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Polka Dot on Jun 2, 2019 18:50:36 GMT
Lol. So that's it ? That's all you have to answer to a totally reasonable post based on logic and content and sentences from the game ? That's weak. I'm waiting for you to answer me and give me your arguments why I am wrong. People might be more willing to engage you if you weren't so hostile, insulting, and sure of yourself. (I learned a long time ago that it's usually a waste of time to try to discuss anything with anyone whose mind is already made up - and you are very sure of yourself and your "logic"). Other people have pointed out to you that your entire argument is based on assumptions you made yet fail to acknowledge. Starting with this: since Sten associates gender with vocation, how/where did he ever get the idea that Morrigan, Leliana, Wynne, and possibly the warden are women?
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,248
Hanako Ikezawa
22,355
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 2, 2019 18:53:22 GMT
|
|
inherit
1033
0
31,246
colfoley
16,570
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Jun 2, 2019 19:01:05 GMT
I think we all need to keep the words of the great Obi-Wan: "From a certain point of view".
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,882 Likes: 49,344
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,344
Iakus
20,882
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Jun 2, 2019 19:03:41 GMT
Lol. So that's it ? That's all you have to answer to a totally reasonable post based on logic and content and sentences from the game ? That's weak. I'm waiting for you to answer me and give me your arguments why I am wrong. People might be more willing to engage you if you weren't so hostile, insulting, and sure of yourself. (I learned a long time ago that it's usually a waste of time to try to discuss anything with anyone whose mind is already made up - and you are very sure of yourself and your "logic"). Other people have pointed out to you that your entire argument is based on assumptions you made yet fail to acknowledge. Starting with this: since Sten associates gender with vocation, how/where did he ever get the idea that Morrigan, Leliana, Wynne, and possibly the warden are women? Morrigan: Obviously you are no priestess. But shouldn't you be... running a shop, or a farm somewhere, rather than fighting?Leliana : Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting.Wynne : Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.Female Warden: "I don't understand. You look like a woman."
|
|
Little Bengel
N3
Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 954 Likes: 2,626
Member is Online
inherit
3354
0
Member is Online
2,626
Little Bengel
Partying like it's 1999
954
February 2017
geminifreak
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Little Bengel on Jun 2, 2019 19:07:31 GMT
Is there some reason why they'd need to define gender prior to vocational assignment? Correct. The Tamrassan assign vocation presumably based on the individual's aptitude, expressed interests and skills and perhaps current needs of the community. And, given the quote, physical traits. And even then it was implied in Origins that it's not so set in stone as one may think: Sten: Why are you here? Morrigan: Excuse me? Sten: Obviously you are no priestess. But shouldn't you be... running a shop, or a farm somewhere, rather than fighting? Morrigan: You think to tell me my place, Qunari? You are very brave. Sten: It is not done. Morrigan: But it is done. Do not be such a blind fool. Sten: I speak the truth. It is not I who am blind. Morrigan: Look around you, then. you see women throughout this land, fighters and mages both.Sten: That has yet to be proven.Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?Sten: Either.Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know.There's certainly precedent in the DA universe for this kind of thing. And even then, I don't think Origins and Inquisition need to be necessarily anathema to one another in that aspect: - Most of what we learned in Inquisition came mostly from one source: Iron Bull. His title as a member of the Qun just so happens to be Hissrad - the liar. Like I said earlier on another post, his job is to lie and twist the truth, which puts a good portion of the things he says into question, especially regarding the Qun - remember, he's loyal only until you elect to leave the dreadnought to sink. Before then, all the conversations you have with him about the Qun - including the conversation about Krem and the aqun-athlok - cannot be taken as absolute fact, and everything he said on these topics could have been worded exactly to make Qunari society seem more palatable to Thedosian ears, and to ours, given all we've seen in previous games.
- Regarding the actual concept of Aqun-Athlok (and this is where it can get subjective): we don't know how common they are. We don't know by what criteria the Tamassrans (or whoever) decide what makes someone Aqun-Athlok. All we know is that some people are born with one biological gender and, through unknown circumstances, end up 'living as the other gender'. meaning that it's very likely that biologically, men in the Qun are still primarily warriors and women are crafters/administrators, as is stated in Origins. Besides that, I don't think we can really say anything more about it, because we can't know anything more about it. Unless one of us posting in this thread is secretly a Bioware writer in disguise.
And those are my thoughts on the matter. None of Syl's arguments, or yours, have done much to change them.
Beyond this, I'm perfectly willing to ask Weekes for clarification on this matter if I have to. All one needs to do is send him a tweet.
|
|
inherit
1033
0
31,246
colfoley
16,570
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Jun 2, 2019 19:14:36 GMT
And, given the quote, physical traits. And even then it was implied in Origins that it's not so set in stone as one may think: Sten: Why are you here? Morrigan: Excuse me? Sten: Obviously you are no priestess. But shouldn't you be... running a shop, or a farm somewhere, rather than fighting? Morrigan: You think to tell me my place, Qunari? You are very brave. Sten: It is not done. Morrigan: But it is done. Do not be such a blind fool. Sten: I speak the truth. It is not I who am blind. Morrigan: Look around you, then. you see women throughout this land, fighters and mages both.Sten: That has yet to be proven.Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?Sten: Either.Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know.There's certainly precedent in the DA universe for this kind of thing. And even then, I don't think Origins and Inquisition need to be necessarily anathema to one another in that aspect: - Most of what we learned in Inquisition came mostly from one source: Iron Bull. His title as a member of the Qun just so happens to be Hissrad - the liar. Like I said earlier on another post, his job is to lie and twist the truth, which puts a good portion of the things he says into question, especially regarding the Qun - remember, he's loyal only until you elect to leave the dreadnought to sink. Before then, all the conversations you have with him about the Qun - including the conversation about Krem and the aqun-athlok - cannot be taken as absolute fact, and everything he said on these topics could have been worded exactly to make Qunari society seem more palatable to Thedosian ears, and to ours, given all we've seen in previous games.
- Regarding the actual concept of Aqun-Athlok (and this is where it can get subjective): we don't know how common they are. We don't know by what criteria the Tamassrans (or whoever) decide what makes someone Aqun-Athlok. All we know is that some people are born with one biological gender and, through unknown circumstances, end up 'living as the other gender'. meaning that it's very likely that biologically, men in the Qun are still primarily warriors and women are crafters/administrators, as is stated in Origins. Besides that, I don't think we can really say anything more about it, because we can't know anything more about it. Unless one of us posting in this thread is secretly a Bioware writer in disguise.
And those are my thoughts on the matter. None of Syl's arguments, or yours, have done much to change them.
Beyond this, I'm perfectly willing to ask Weekes for clarification on this matter if I have to. All one needs to do is send him a tweet.
even if one of us was a bioware writer we may not *know* either.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,882 Likes: 49,344
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,344
Iakus
20,882
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Jun 2, 2019 19:19:54 GMT
And, given the quote, physical traits. And even then it was implied in Origins that it's not so set in stone as one may think: Sten: Why are you here? Morrigan: Excuse me? Sten: Obviously you are no priestess. But shouldn't you be... running a shop, or a farm somewhere, rather than fighting? Morrigan: You think to tell me my place, Qunari? You are very brave. Sten: It is not done. Morrigan: But it is done. Do not be such a blind fool. Sten: I speak the truth. It is not I who am blind. Morrigan: Look around you, then. you see women throughout this land, fighters and mages both.Sten: That has yet to be proven.Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?Sten: Either.Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know.There's certainly precedent in the DA universe for this kind of thing. And even then, I don't think Origins and Inquisition need to be necessarily anathema to one another in that aspect: - Most of what we learned in Inquisition came mostly from one source: Iron Bull. His title as a member of the Qun just so happens to be Hissrad - the liar. Like I said earlier on another post, his job is to lie and twist the truth, which puts a good portion of the things he says into question, especially regarding the Qun - remember, he's loyal only until you elect to leave the dreadnought to sink. Before then, all the conversations you have with him about the Qun - including the conversation about Krem and the aqun-athlok - cannot be taken as absolute fact, and everything he said on these topics could have been worded exactly to make Qunari society seem more palatable to Thedosian ears, and to ours, given all we've seen in previous games.
- Regarding the actual concept of Aqun-Athlok (and this is where it can get subjective): we don't know how common they are. We don't know by what criteria the Tamassrans (or whoever) decide what makes someone Aqun-Athlok. All we know is that some people are born with one biological gender and, through unknown circumstances, end up 'living as the other gender'. meaning that it's very likely that biologically, men in the Qun are still primarily warriors and women are crafters/administrators, as is stated in Origins. Besides that, I don't think we can really say anything more about it, because we can't know anything more about it. Unless one of us posting in this thread is secretly a Bioware writer in disguise.
And those are my thoughts on the matter. None of Syl's arguments, or yours, have done much to change them.
Beyond this, I'm perfectly willing to ask Weekes for clarification on this matter if I have to. All one needs to do is send him a tweet.
I am clinging to the idea that IB was in fat being a "Hissrad" when it comes to the concept. In large part because he treated it entirely too casually for such a rigid society as the Qun to be as casual about it as he was. Anyway, to your credit, you at least have not implied various "-phobics" to those with perspectives different from yours.
|
|
Syv
N3
Posts: 770 Likes: 2,390
inherit
2079
0
Nov 14, 2016 15:32:17 GMT
2,390
Syv
770
Nov 13, 2016 18:49:33 GMT
November 2016
syv
|
Post by Syv on Jun 2, 2019 19:28:19 GMT
Lol. So that's it ? That's all you have to answer to a totally reasonable post based on logic and content and sentences from the game ? That's weak. I'm waiting for you to answer me and give me your arguments why I am wrong. People might be more willing to engage you if you weren't so hostile, insulting, and sure of yourself. (I learned a long time ago that it's usually a waste of time to try to discuss anything with anyone whose mind is already made up - and you are very sure of yourself and your "logic"). Other people have pointed out to you that your entire argument is based on assumptions you made yet fail to acknowledge. Starting with this: since Sten associates gender with vocation, how/where did he ever get the idea that Morrigan, Leliana, Wynne, and possibly the warden are women? Well, I have done the same as I read for several pages, with people making fun of those that disagree with them, telling how unreasonable they are, making up their mind or they are just making assumptions. So yeah, it wasn't different. I am sure of myself, because I see the content, and I see that your own assumptions don't fit at all to me. And I'm trying to show you why with the content. As long as someone doesn't show me why I am wrong with arguments, reasoning behind, examples and content from the game, which hasn't been done so far, I'm probably not going to change my opinion. Having a ton of posts for several pages just saying " yeah you guys are just making assumption " has never convinced anyone. I don't understand at all your interpretation of Sten, you guys are also making assumptions withtout ever bringing the content and arguments that should go with it. Explain me why gender doesn't matter with Sten, adressing all the inconsistencies I pointed out with that vision and arguments I have made. If anything I feel it's you guys that are making assumptions about Sten, but I do the effort to explain why I feel that way. Which entire argument is based on assumptions ? I show the sentences, the content, I base my own arguments on them; if you disagree, if you have a different interpretation, Explain me why my reasoning is wrong with logical arguments and content, why that doesn't apply, and i'll try to answer. My mind isn't necessarily made up, I am waiting for you to explain with logical arguments, examples, content, why you think you are right, why you think we are wrong. Which hasn't been done at all. I'm not going to change my opinion when the only things I read, "is you guys are making assomptions, you guys are unreasonable, you guys are naive fools " without adressing anything. That's just too easy.
|
|
Polka Dot
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 679 Likes: 1,207
inherit
10957
0
Feb 14, 2019 20:07:41 GMT
1,207
Polka Dot
679
Feb 14, 2019 18:50:29 GMT
February 2019
polkadot
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Polka Dot on Jun 2, 2019 19:33:51 GMT
People might be more willing to engage you if you weren't so hostile, insulting, and sure of yourself. (I learned a long time ago that it's usually a waste of time to try to discuss anything with anyone whose mind is already made up - and you are very sure of yourself and your "logic"). Other people have pointed out to you that your entire argument is based on assumptions you made yet fail to acknowledge. Starting with this: since Sten associates gender with vocation, how/where did he ever get the idea that Morrigan, Leliana, Wynne, and possibly the warden are women? <more of the same> Are you going to answer the question I posed?
|
|
simit
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Chris2k30
PSN: Simit2k30
Posts: 790 Likes: 1,042
inherit
8535
0
1,042
simit
790
May 24, 2017 14:21:26 GMT
May 2017
simit
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Chris2k30
Simit2k30
|
Post by simit on Jun 2, 2019 19:47:20 GMT
Heedache
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,248
Hanako Ikezawa
22,355
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 2, 2019 19:47:47 GMT
Beyond this, I'm perfectly willing to ask Weekes for clarification on this matter if I have to. All one needs to do is send him a tweet. I’m pretty certain they did. Weekes, Gaiden, And maybe a couple other devs said that The Iron Bull was telling the truth about this being a thing that happens in the Qun. It’s not a retcon according to them.
|
|