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Post by Syv on Jun 2, 2019 19:49:08 GMT
Are you going to answer the question I posed? You didn't adress my post, nobody did, it was just ignored, and yet I pointed out all the inconsistencies with your reasoning. I'm still waiting. I'm not certain your question is relevant. Where he got the idea, doesn't matter. What we know is that sten is able to do the difference between a man and a woman based on gender. You don't say you look like a woman, if that is not the case. He shouldn't have been bothered that the warden is female. That totally contradicts this reasoning. It totally invalidates the idea that the gender is determinated by vocation. I have also explained why it was unlikely with my post that you didn't adress. Could you explain why he acts differently with a male warden ? Why the content about women is only available to a female warden ? Why he speaks of such thigns with only female members of the group, not the male ones ?
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Post by Iakus on Jun 2, 2019 19:51:27 GMT
Are you going to answer the question I posed? As I cited above, he clearly sees them all as women, as he questions why they are fighting.
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Post by Syv on Jun 2, 2019 19:54:24 GMT
And, given the quote, physical traits. And even then it was implied in Origins that it's not so set in stone as one may think: Sten: Why are you here? Morrigan: Excuse me? Sten: Obviously you are no priestess. But shouldn't you be... running a shop, or a farm somewhere, rather than fighting? Morrigan: You think to tell me my place, Qunari? You are very brave. Sten: It is not done. Morrigan: But it is done. Do not be such a blind fool. Sten: I speak the truth. It is not I who am blind. Morrigan: Look around you, then. you see women throughout this land, fighters and mages both.Sten: That has yet to be proven.Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?Sten: Either.Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know. You misunderstood the Quote. That conversation doesn't tell that he is unable to do the difference between a male and a female, it tells that something feels not right to him, since normally there is no female warrior and female warriors in the Qunari society. So for him there is necessarily a trick somewhere, he has to investigate, hence why he answers that way. It is linked to his anwers, about Wynn when she asks if Qunari have female warriors and female mages. He said no.Why would they ever wish to be men.
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Post by Syv on Jun 2, 2019 19:59:38 GMT
I am clinging to the idea that IB was in fat being a "Hissrad" when it comes to the concept. In large part because he treated it entirely too casually for such a rigid society as the Qun to be as casual about it as he was. Anyway, to your credit, you at least have not implied various "-phobics" to those with perspectives different from yours. Apparently, when you describe how the Qunari society is, based on your interpretation, it necessarily means that you have the same personal point of view IRL. I have learned something new today. Never changes BSN.
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Post by Polka Dot on Jun 2, 2019 20:18:27 GMT
Are you going to answer the question I posed? You didn't adress my post, nobody did, it was just ignored, and yet I pointed out all the inconsistencies with your reasoning. I'm still waiting. I'm not certain your question is relevant. Where he got the idea, doesn't matter. 1. I haven't shared any of my reasoning. 2. Where he got the idea does matter. I'll ask one more time. Since Sten associates gender with vocation, how/where did he ever get the idea that Morrigan, Leliana, Wynne, and possibly the warden are women?
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Post by Little Bengel on Jun 2, 2019 20:52:06 GMT
Beyond this, I'm perfectly willing to ask Weekes for clarification on this matter if I have to. All one needs to do is send him a tweet. I’m pretty certain they did. Weekes, Gaiden, And maybe a couple other devs said that The Iron Bull was telling the truth about this being a thing that happens in the Qun. It’s not a retcon according to them. That it happens is obvious, but I was thinking more along the lines of how often does it happen, and in what circumstances. Because I think that plays a key role in most complaints people have about this information.
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Post by Little Bengel on Jun 2, 2019 20:57:12 GMT
You misunderstood the Quote. That conversation doesn't tell that he is unable to do the difference between a male and a female, it tells that something feels not right to him, since normally there is no female warrior and female warriors in the Qunari society. So for him there is necessarily a trick somewhere, he has to investigate, hence why he answers that way. It is linked to his anwers, about Wynn when she asks if Qunari have female warriors and female mages. He said no.Why would they ever wish to be men.Makes me wonder what happens when women are born with magic. Although I'd guess any and all mages would be ungendered in the eyes of the Qun and treated only as, as the word goes, 'dangerous things'.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 2, 2019 21:16:54 GMT
You didn't adress my post, nobody did, it was just ignored, and yet I pointed out all the inconsistencies with your reasoning. I'm still waiting. I'm not certain your question is relevant. Where he got the idea, doesn't matter. 1. I haven't shared any of my reasoning. 2. Where he got the idea does matter. I'll ask one more time. Since Sten associates gender with vocation, how/where did he ever get the idea that Morrigan, Leliana, Wynne, and possibly the warden are women? I'm not sure why you keep harping on that. He clearly sees them and refers to them as women, and women who fight. Which is a complete contradiction in his mind. He even tells female Wardens that she "looks like a woman" This has been cited over and over and over again.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 2, 2019 22:21:56 GMT
How one Qunari perceives 'women' and 'men' isn't definitive proof of how the entire society constructs and assigns gender.
Since none of the women debating Sten ever claimed to actually be men, we'll never know how he'd react in that instance, so the whole argument is fucking nonsense.
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Post by melbella on Jun 2, 2019 22:24:25 GMT
Since none of the women debating Sten ever claimed to actually be men, we'll never know how he'd react in that instance, so the whole argument is fucking nonsense. Apparently all the female qunari we fight in Trespasser are actually male. Who knew?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 2, 2019 22:37:48 GMT
Since none of the women debating Sten ever claimed to actually be men, we'll never know how he'd react in that instance, so the whole argument is fucking nonsense. Apparently all the female qunari we fight in Trespasser are actually male. Who knew? Well there's also Tallis, her job involves combat, to pretend otherwise would be absurd. So even without the concept of Aqun-Atlok or whatever it was, it's clear that the Qunari make exceptions when it suits them, and the revelation that they are self-serving hypocrites who break their own rules (just like every other organization in Thedas) could hardly be called a retcon. Sten also states that ALL Qunari would be expected to fight if a situation necessitated it. So his stubbornness on the issue during a BLIGHT, and indeed during most/all non-Darkspawn-related combat is a contradiction WITHIN HIS OWN CHARACTER. Morrigan, Wynne and Leliana are not, in fact, career warriors. They left their ordinary roles to combat the Blight, something that should fit perfectly well within Sten's apparent understanding of gender roles, as he expresses it in DAO.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 4, 2019 15:28:14 GMT
I am not attached to anything, I have my point on view based on logic. Look, I don't mind your insulting tone and dismissive style of argument (though why Iakus isn't reporting you, I still don't understand), I get a chuckle out of it. But please don't use the word "logic" to describe the way you arrive at your opinions. As someone who cherishes rhetorical argument, I find that highly offensive. Here's where this all started: They wanted a transgender among the Qunari, that's the story they wanted to make, and for that to be possible, the Qunari got retconned, as simple as that, because they came to realize that it was not possible with what they got from DAO. I'm just reading the evidences people put in this thread, and it's terribly obvious. I don't even know why there is a debate at this level. There is a whole world between Sten and Bull, to the point that the latter seems like a modern progressive that came out of nowhere, on that specific issue. Of course that the Qunari seem suddenly in a way " more progressive " now than they appeared in DAO. You call the "evidences" of retcon self-evident and obvious. I disagree. There is a completely logical alternative explanation. Two, actually. 1. Sten is not the ultimate authority on Qun doctrine, so any defense based on Sten's statements is at best one Qunari's opinion. We can't definitely say it's a retcon, because we don't know how close or far Sten's statements are from the true truth. As previously established in my other posts about the futility of making rhetorical arguments about DA lore. 2. The Iron Bull was a spy and a liar by profession. Because his job required him to socialize in other cultures outside the Qun, he has multiple perspectives on social norms. He lives with a foot in both worlds. Therefore, when talking about the Qun to outsiders, he can "dumb things down" in a way that people of that culture can understand, even if it inaccurately describes the actual workings of the Qun. Whether intentionally, because too close an understanding of the Qun might make his job more difficult, or unintentionally lost in translation. In other words, The Iron Bull need not represent a "progressive shift in the Qun," but rather, one person's manipulation of the facts to his own professional purposes. The "evidences" for #2 are just as obvious to me as those for retcon are for you. Who is to say who is right?
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Post by Iakus on Jun 4, 2019 16:11:03 GMT
Since none of the women debating Sten ever claimed to actually be men, we'll never know how he'd react in that instance, so the whole argument is fucking nonsense. Apparently all the female qunari we fight in Trespasser are actually male. Who knew? The Ben Hassrath are actually part of the priest cast. They can fight, but are taught differently and do not "live by the blade" as one who is a warrior by vocation. And even within the Ben Hassrath, males and females are segregated by specialization.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 4, 2019 16:14:47 GMT
1. Sten is not the ultimate authority on Qun doctrine, so any defense based on Sten's statements is at best one Qunari's opinion. We can't definitely say it's a retcon, because we don't know how close or far Sten's statements are from the true truth. As previously established in my other posts about the futility of making rhetorical arguments about DA lore. Saying Sten doesn't know what he's talking about regarding the Qunari military and who can join is kinda like saying Mother Giselle doesn't know what she's talking about regarding male and female roles in the Chantry.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 4, 2019 18:15:12 GMT
1. Sten is not the ultimate authority on Qun doctrine, so any defense based on Sten's statements is at best one Qunari's opinion. We can't definitely say it's a retcon, because we don't know how close or far Sten's statements are from the true truth. As previously established in my other posts about the futility of making rhetorical arguments about DA lore. Saying Sten doesn't know what he's talking about regarding the Qunari military and who can join is kinda like saying Mother Giselle doesn't know what she's talking about regarding male and female roles in the Chantry. It's nothing like that at all. First of all, Mother Giselle says next to nothing about male and female roles in the Chantry. Secondly, we don't have nearly enough knowledge about how Qunari are raised and trained in general, let alone Sten in particular. We don't know the particulars of what he was taught in regards to gender or any other subject, or what kind of socialisation opportunities he was given (though it seems safe to say that Qunari aren't given many in general, and probably aren't taught anything that doesn't directly relate to their assigned roles). Furthermore, Sten has no involvement whatsoever in the process of assigning roles to individual Qunari, that job belongs to the Tamassrans, who are part of an entirely different caste. So why would we assume that he has any knowledge about how the choice is made, or what criteria need to be filled? Why would that knowledge be given to him when it has nothing to do with his job? What would be the point? We also don't have any context for how Sten defines a "woman" vs a "man". There is incidental dialogue in DAO where he can't even tell if a statue of Maferath is supposed to depict a male or female. So any information he gives about what a woman can or cannot be/do is, at best, incomplete. Sten also doesn't provide any surrounding context for how the Qunari conceptualise sex and gender, and none of the female party members claim to be men, so we have no idea how he would respond to that situation. Sten specifically says to Leliana "Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting". To Wynne he says "Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.". To Morrigan he says "Obviously you are no priestess. But shouldn't you be... running a shop, or a farm somewhere, rather than fighting?". At no point does he ever mention that the Priest caste happens to also includes spies and interrogators, who use violence regularly in their work. Espionage is also a pretty big part of that 'war' thing Sten says women shouldn't be involved in. So Sten either withheld that information on purpose, or he is ignorant of it. The latter seems more likely because, again, why would he be given that information? Sten also says, to Zevran, that "The tamassrans evaluate everyone and place them where their talents merit." That statement directly conflicts with all his previous assertions about gender. Qunari are either evaluated based on their talents, or they are locked into specific roles due to their biological sex. It cannot be both. The only way for both statements to be true is if female qunari aren't assessed for their talent in martial arts at all, but we know for a fact that they are, because female qunari can be espionage agents, and combat training would be a necessary part of their education. So we know females must be given opportunity to learn and showcase their fighting talent, because they can work in roles that might require it. We know that the Qunari assign roles based on talent, and that assigning them to a role they aren't suited for is considered a "waste". So... Either the Qunari allow for the possibility of female warriors, even if that means labelling them as "men". OR They flout the core philosophy that underpins their entire social structure, and waste good fighters in poorly-suited roles, simply for having the wrong genitals. So which is it?
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Post by Syv on Jun 4, 2019 18:22:22 GMT
See, I prefer this tone, where people give us their arguments, their reasoning, and content, instead of just " you guys are making assumptions or it seems like a lot of unreasonable assumptions " Thanks for that. Okay. For those that still believe that Women in the military are not segregated, that gender isn't involved, I remind them DAII, where the Arishock refuses to fight Female Hawk, because she cannot be considered as a warrior : Fenris : You have granted this woman Basalit-an. By this admission, she now has the right to challenge you. Arishock : If you truly knew the Qun, you would not suggest I battle a woman Fenris :But she is no female, she is an outsider. By your own words. ( so not a Qunari ) Not only he aknowledges Hawks who is yet a warrior, as a female, a woman based on gender, but he is also confirming what Sten already told in DAO. Hawk is a stranger worthy of respect so, he can consider fighting her finally. But apparently Sten is a moron who doesn't know what the heck he is talking about ? Despite being a military specialist and coming from the heart of the Qunari land, born and elevated into the Qun. If you still refuse that women aren't normally segregated, an explanation ?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 4, 2019 18:27:06 GMT
See, I prefer this tone, where people give us their arguments, their reasoning, and content, instead of just " you guys are making assumptions or it seems like a lot of unreasonable assumptions " Thanks for that. Okay. For those that still believe that Women in the military are not segregated, that gender isn't involved, I remind them DAII, where the Arishock refuses to fight Female Hawk, because she cannot be considered as a warrior : Fenris : You have granted this woman Basalit-an. By this admission, she now has the right to challenge you. Arishock : If you truly knew the Qun, you would not suggest I battle a woman Fenris :But she is no female, she is an outsider. By your own words. ( so not a Qunari ) Not only he aknowledges Hawks who is yet a warrior, as a female, a woman based on gender, but he is confirming what Sten already told in DAO. Hawk is a stranger wothy of respect so, he can consider fighting her finally. But apparently Sten is a moron who doesn't know what the heck he is talking about ? Despite being a military specialist and coming from the heart of the Qunari land, born and elevated into the Qun. If you still refuse that women aren't normally segregated, an explanation ? The obvious explanation, I suspect, would be that the Tamassrans reserve the right to change the gender of individuals if and when it suits them, and everyone else just deals with it. Knowing the Qunari, it probably also involves horrific re-education and possibly even surgery. They literally have a potion for the dedicated purpose of brainwashing individuals. This is not a great leap of the imagination.
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Post by Syv on Jun 4, 2019 18:31:25 GMT
Apparently all the female qunari we fight in Trespasser are actually male. Who knew? Well there's also Tallis, her job involves combat, to pretend otherwise would be absurd. So even without the concept of Aqun-Atlok or whatever it was, it's clear that the Qunari make exceptions when it suits them, and the revelation that they are self-serving hypocrites who break their own rules (just like every other organization in Thedas) could hardly be called a retcon. Sten also states that ALL Qunari would be expected to fight if a situation necessitated it. So his stubbornness on the issue during a BLIGHT, and indeed during most/all non-Darkspawn-related combat is a contradiction WITHIN HIS OWN CHARACTER. Morrigan, Wynne and Leliana are not, in fact, career warriors. They left their ordinary roles to combat the Blight, something that should fit perfectly well within Sten's apparent understanding of gender roles, as he expresses it in DAO. No. Tallis is a tool, seen as a tool, Tallis doesn't come from the Qunari society, she isn't a part of the warriors living by the sword. Tallis doesn't go fighting into Qunari lands. Tallis was initially deemed an unsuitable convert , and would have been rendered a mindless laborer if not for the intervention of Salit, a high-ranking Ben-Hassrath agent, who formally requested that the tammasrans turn the girl over to him so he could train her to become a Tallis, "those who solve". Her duties involved travelling to non-Qunari lands, primarily Orlais and Nevarra. There is nothing established, a Salit had an idea, and trained her himself in the secret of everything,, not the society or the military. Since it is in non -Qunari Lands, seen by nowhere, it totally makes sense. They can close their eyes, unlike this idea that it is established that women in the heart of Qunari society and lands are not that segregated, " if they really want it and are skilled " like said Bull with a specific title. It totally desintegrates the idea that women can't fight otherwise, cannot be warriors in the military because of the ideology while a lot of them but skilled are in the heart of the military, in the eyes of all. It was a specific request made by an agent, not a norm. Tallis is not a part of the army, Tallis works in the human Lands with Ben'Hassrath, foreign agents, for the sort of intelligence foreign service, so it doesn't contradict what Sten said. Sten comes from the military, ( no he isn't dumb and he knows what the heck he is talking about ) has only ever witnessed the Qunari land before and was sent as a soldier for the first time in human lands to watch out what is going over there, and all about the blight. There is nothing hard to believe there, because you use the resources of the humans against them, to watch them, on humans lands, the Qunari society isn't involved at heart. Absolutely makes sense out of your lands. That doesn't contradict what Sten has said, while we see that indeed that exceptions can be made. Nobody said there couldn't be some exceptions out there. There are always exceptions. We know that in everything there are exceptions, otherwise we would have reacted already in DAII. Also the Arishock confirms what Sten said with his judgment, as I mentioned with my post above.
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Post by Syv on Jun 4, 2019 18:44:23 GMT
See, I prefer this tone, where people give us their arguments, their reasoning, and content, instead of just " you guys are making assumptions or it seems like a lot of unreasonable assumptions " Thanks for that. Okay. For those that still believe that Women in the military are not segregated, that gender isn't involved, I remind them DAII, where the Arishock refuses to fight Female Hawk, because she cannot be considered as a warrior : Fenris : You have granted this woman Basalit-an. By this admission, she now has the right to challenge you. Arishock : If you truly knew the Qun, you would not suggest I battle a woman Fenris :But she is no female, she is an outsider. By your own words. ( so not a Qunari ) Not only he aknowledges Hawks who is yet a warrior, as a female, a woman based on gender, but he is confirming what Sten already told in DAO. Hawk is a stranger wothy of respect so, he can consider fighting her finally. But apparently Sten is a moron who doesn't know what the heck he is talking about ? Despite being a military specialist and coming from the heart of the Qunari land, born and elevated into the Qun. If you still refuse that women aren't normally segregated, an explanation ? The obvious explanation, I suspect, would be that the Tamassrans reserve the right to change the gender of individuals if and when it suits them, and everyone else just deals with it. Knowing the Qunari, it probably also involves horrific re-education and possibly even surgery. They literally have a potion for the dedicated purpose of brainwashing individuals. This is not a great leap of the imagination. You said in your previous post, we can't know if Qunari determinate gender over difference of biology, we know they can. Hawk is a a human, and yet The Arishock definites her as a woman by seeing her, as much as Sten definited all the female warden and members as such. " you look like a woman " to both morrigan and the female warden. At this point, I can't do anything. The content is there. Meh. He is precisely refusing to fight her because of her gender and yet she is a skilled fighter, worthy of respect. only the fact that she is a Non-Qunari AND worthy of respect ' meaning if she wasn't, he still wouldn't do it otherwise', is able to make him considerate fighting her.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 4, 2019 18:54:03 GMT
We know that in everything there are exceptions Then what, pardon my Qun, is the motherfucking problem? Sten asserts a rule, Iron Bull introduces an exception. He doesn't say that it's common, he doesn't say that it's special or celebrated. He even states outright that a female in the warrior caste would be treated as a male "for all intents and purposes". Meaning that, if Sten were following the rules of the Qun, he would only refer to his fellow soldiers as male anyway, regardless of their biological sex.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 4, 2019 18:56:43 GMT
The obvious explanation, I suspect, would be that the Tamassrans reserve the right to change the gender of individuals if and when it suits them, and everyone else just deals with it. Knowing the Qunari, it probably also involves horrific re-education and possibly even surgery. They literally have a potion for the dedicated purpose of brainwashing individuals. This is not a great leap of the imagination. You said in your previous post, we can't know if Qunari determinate gender over difference of biology, we know they can. Hawk is a a human, and yet The Arishock definites her as a woman by seeing her, as much as Sten definited all the female warden and members as such. " you look like a woman " to both morrigan and the female warden. At this point, I can't do anything. The content is there. Meh. He is precisely refusing to fight her because of her gender and yet she is a skilled fighter, worthy of respect. only the fact that she is a Non-Qunari AND worthy of respect ' meaning if she wasn't, he still wouldn't do it otherwise', is able to make him considerate fighting her. "You look like a woman" is not the same as "You are a woman". Sounds to me like Sten is open to the possibility that a female warden might be a man.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 4, 2019 19:10:25 GMT
Well there's also Tallis, her job involves combat, to pretend otherwise would be absurd. So even without the concept of Aqun-Atlok or whatever it was, it's clear that the Qunari make exceptions when it suits them, and the revelation that they are self-serving hypocrites who break their own rules (just like every other organization in Thedas) could hardly be called a retcon. Sten also states that ALL Qunari would be expected to fight if a situation necessitated it. So his stubbornness on the issue during a BLIGHT, and indeed during most/all non-Darkspawn-related combat is a contradiction WITHIN HIS OWN CHARACTER. Morrigan, Wynne and Leliana are not, in fact, career warriors. They left their ordinary roles to combat the Blight, something that should fit perfectly well within Sten's apparent understanding of gender roles, as he expresses it in DAO. No. Tallis is a tool, seen as a tool, Tallis doesn't come from the Qunari society, she isn't a part of the warriors living by the sword. Tallis doesn't go fighting into Qunari lands. Tallis was initially deemed an unsuitable convert , and would have been rendered a mindless laborer if not for the intervention of Salit, a high-ranking Ben-Hassrath agent, who formally requested that the tammasrans turn the girl over to him so he could train her to become a Tallis, "those who solve". Her duties involved travelling to non-Qunari lands, primarily Orlais and Nevarra. There is nothing established, a Salit had an idea, and trained her himself in the secret of everything,, not the society or the military. Since it is in non -Qunari Lands, seen by nowhere, it totally makes sense. They can close their eyes, unlike this idea that it is established that women in the heart of Qunari society and lands are not that segregated, " if they really want it and are skilled " like said Bull with a specific title. It totally desintegrates the idea that women can't fight otherwise, cannot be warriors in the military because of the ideology while a lot of them but skilled are in the heart of the military, in the eyes of all. It was a specific request made by an agent, not a norm. Tallis is not a part of the army, Tallis works in the human Lands with Ben'Hassrath, foreign agents, for the sort of intelligence foreign service, so it doesn't contradict what Sten said. Sten comes from the military, ( no he isn't dumb and he knows what the heck he is talking about ) has only ever witnessed the Qunari land before and was sent as a soldier for the first time in human lands to watch out what is going over there, and all about the blight. There is nothing hard to believe there, because you use the resources of the humans against them, to watch them, on humans lands, the Qunari society isn't involved at heart. Absolutely makes sense out of your lands. That doesn't contradict what Sten has said, while we see that indeed that exceptions can be made. Nobody said there couldn't be some exceptions out there. There are always exceptions. We know that in everything there are exceptions, otherwise we would have reacted already in DAII. Also the Arishock confirms what Sten said with his judgment, as I mentioned with my post above. Not to mention Tallis is also Ben Hassrath, part of the priest class. She can fight, but it is not her primary function. And in fact, she actively searches for nonviolent solutions to problems.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 4, 2019 19:14:03 GMT
Saying Sten doesn't know what he's talking about regarding the Qunari military and who can join is kinda like saying Mother Giselle doesn't know what she's talking about regarding male and female roles in the Chantry. It's nothing like that at all. First of all, Mother Giselle says next to nothing about male and female roles in the Chantry. Secondly, we don't have nearly enough knowledge about how Qunari are raised and trained in general, let alone Sten in particular. We don't know the particulars of what he was taught in regards to gender or any other subject, or what kind of socialisation opportunities he was given (though it seems safe to say that Qunari aren't given many in general, and probably aren't taught anything that doesn't directly relate to their assigned roles). Furthermore, Sten has no involvement whatsoever in the process of assigning roles to individual Qunari, that job belongs to the Tamassrans, who are part of an entirely different caste. So why would we assume that he has any knowledge about how the choice is made, or what criteria need to be filled? Why would that knowledge be given to him when it has nothing to do with his job? What would be the point? We also don't have any context for how Sten defines a "woman" vs a "man". There is incidental dialogue in DAO where he can't even tell if a statue of Maferath is supposed to depict a male or female. So any information he gives about what a woman can or cannot be/do is, at best, incomplete. Sten also doesn't provide any surrounding context for how the Qunari conceptualise sex and gender, and none of the female party members claim to be men, so we have no idea how he would respond to that situation. Sten specifically says to Leliana "Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting". To Wynne he says "Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.". To Morrigan he says "Obviously you are no priestess. But shouldn't you be... running a shop, or a farm somewhere, rather than fighting?". At no point does he ever mention that the Priest caste happens to also includes spies and interrogators, who use violence regularly in their work. Espionage is also a pretty big part of that 'war' thing Sten says women shouldn't be involved in. So Sten either withheld that information on purpose, or he is ignorant of it. The latter seems more likely because, again, why would he be given that information? Sten also says, to Zevran, that "The tamassrans evaluate everyone and place them where their talents merit." That statement directly conflicts with all his previous assertions about gender. Qunari are either evaluated based on their talents, or they are locked into specific roles due to their biological sex. It cannot be both. The only way for both statements to be true is if female qunari aren't assessed for their talent in martial arts at all, but we know for a fact that they are, because female qunari can be espionage agents, and combat training would be a necessary part of their education. So we know females must be given opportunity to learn and showcase their fighting talent, because they can work in roles that might require it. We know that the Qunari assign roles based on talent, and that assigning them to a role they aren't suited for is considered a "waste". So... Either the Qunari allow for the possibility of female warriors, even if that means labelling them as "men". OR They flout the core philosophy that underpins their entire social structure, and waste good fighters in poorly-suited roles, simply for having the wrong genitals. So which is it? Then replace that name with any other ordained priest in the Chantry, since that was the point. Sten, an officer of the Beresaad, should know what it takes to join the Qunari military. In which case, a warrior with boobs should not have thrown him for such a loop if there were such "exceptions"
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Post by Little Bengel on Jun 4, 2019 19:29:00 GMT
I still stand by the viewpoint that males are primarily warriors and women crafters and administrators (as stated in Origins) except when certain criteria apply that make the Tamassrans declare someone Aqun-Athlok (as stated and implied in Inquisition).
'Cuz like I said, we don't know how common AA's are in Qunari society, and until we do, any further discussion on this topic is completely senseless.
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Post by Syv on Jun 4, 2019 19:46:57 GMT
You said in your previous post, we can't know if Qunari determinate gender over difference of biology, we know they can. Hawk is a a human, and yet The Arishock definites her as a woman by seeing her, as much as Sten definited all the female warden and members as such. " you look like a woman " to both morrigan and the female warden. At this point, I can't do anything. The content is there. Meh. He is precisely refusing to fight her because of her gender and yet she is a skilled fighter, worthy of respect. only the fact that she is a Non-Qunari AND worthy of respect ' meaning if she wasn't, he still wouldn't do it otherwise', is able to make him considerate fighting her. "You look like a woman" is not the same as "You are a woman". Sounds to me like Sten is open to the possibility that a female warden might be a man. Sten said such thing, precisely because she is a warrior and fights, which he has never seen before and is contradicting everything he learnt, hence why he states " I don't understand ", before stating uncertain " you look like a woman " to the warden. ( meaning while he could see that she fights, is a warrior, and a skilled one , and is a warden, she strangely looks like the Qunari women he saw in the Qunari lands where he comes from, with her female attributes, but smaller in size. So something is wrong )
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