Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jun 7, 2019 15:45:59 GMT
Buh I don't wanna be special at all The character pretty much HAS to be special on some level by virtue of being the protagonist.They are in this mess, and must find a way to navigate it. What is left to determine is how they can navigate it, and why it has to be them instead f someone else.
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melbella
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Post by melbella on Jun 7, 2019 15:48:00 GMT
Hawke is special, in my opinion, because he takes action when others don't. He has a problem, or sees a problem, and he takes steps to resolve it. Yes, anyone could have done it, but they didn't, or else the story would be about them. In that case, what is "special" about Hawke is his/her mindset and innate character, not any of the options listed.
Edit: I guess that *could* fall under the ideology category but ideology is more about abstract belief. It's not about being a hard working go-getter getting shit done because nobody else is dumb enough to volunteer.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 7, 2019 17:46:24 GMT
Buh I don't wanna be special at all The character pretty much HAS to be special on some level by virtue of being the protagonist.They are in this mess, and must find a way to navigate it. What is left to determine is how they can navigate it, and why it has to be them instead f someone else. In a way, yes. But I've said this before, I don't want to be the hero that saves the day. I would much prefer help the real heroes achieve their goals and leave me in the shadows when it comes to the history books. While my part in the historic play would be important, there would be some other glory hog who will be lauded as THE hero who defeated the evil and/or made the brave sacrifice. How such a scenario would be possible story and gameplay wise, would of course be more tricky than just placing a protagonist in the world and making them the hero that will put an end to the evil forces. I would much rather be the companion, than the hero of DA4.
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N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jun 7, 2019 18:31:00 GMT
The character pretty much HAS to be special on some level by virtue of being the protagonist.They are in this mess, and must find a way to navigate it. What is left to determine is how they can navigate it, and why it has to be them instead f someone else. In a way, yes. But I've said this before, I don't want to be the hero that saves the day. I would much prefer help the real heroes achieve their goals and leave me in the shadows when it comes to the history books. While my part in the historic play would be important, there would be some other glory hog who will be lauded as THE hero who defeated the evil and/or made the brave sacrifice. How such a scenario would be possible story and gameplay wise, would of course be more tricky than just placing a protagonist in the world and making them the hero that will put an end to the evil forces. I would much rather be the companion, than the hero of DA4. Even then, there has to be something "special" about your character that makes you an asset rather than a liability to keep around.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 7, 2019 18:38:40 GMT
I knew this would happen.
Fine if the word special is causing such a mental hiccup then think of it as 'what makes them uniquely qualified to take stop Solas'. I thought this would've been a bit of a mouthful so I went for 'special'.
And every single protagonist ever has been special in some way.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 7, 2019 19:29:21 GMT
I think I may have missed something. But was it not pretty much set up and confirmed that the Inquisitor just happened to be the victim of: "Wrong place wrong time" ? The whole "Andraste chose the Inquisitor!" thing was kinda thrown out the water, was it not? Why do people point to the Inquisitor as a "chosen one" type of thing? Anywho. What should be special about the DA4 protagonist. Hard to answer, I would love for Bioware to go back to what 'Origins' did, and decide your origin based on race and maybe chosen class. Could they get something special down along the way? Probably. Considering a new protagonist not in any way related to the Inquisitor... how about we take a Fenris template. Give some new, cool markings to the protagonist... and an additional customization option where you decide how the marking should look, of course chosen from already made options, but you know what i mean. This could go along with different "Origins" as well, but like in Dragon Age: Origins, it all ends in the same path, as a slave to some Danarius like magister, you eventually break free perhaps with the help from another mage, and throughout the escape you see lots of hellish things done by magisters and good things done by magisters giving you the opportunity to choose how your character will react to magisters of Tevinter from here on out. Because the Inquisitor gets the Mark, which is the only thing that can seal the Breach and save the world. It doesn’t matter that the Ink got it by accident, because getting it made them the sole savior. In a way, it’s even more hackneyed and lazy that they got it by accident.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 7, 2019 19:35:23 GMT
And every single protagonist ever has been special in some way. Which is a pretty good indicator of formulaic and cliche. I think it is not only possible to write a good story about Average Joe that literally has nothing going for them, I think it’s an excellent way for a writer to examine what really makes a protagonist a protagonist. Is it who you are, or what you do?
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Post by colfoley on Jun 7, 2019 19:38:40 GMT
And every single protagonist ever has been special in some way. Which is a pretty good indicator of formulaic and cliche. I think it is not only possible to write a good story about Average Joe that literally has nothing going for them, I think it’s an excellent way for a writer to examine what really makes a protagonist a protagonist. Is it who you are, or what you do? which makes them special/ unique for that narrative.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jun 7, 2019 19:43:36 GMT
And every single protagonist ever has been special in some way. Which is a pretty good indicator of formulaic and cliche. I think it is not only possible to write a good story about Average Joe that literally has nothing going for them, I think it’s an excellent way for a writer to examine what really makes a protagonist a protagonist. Is it who you are, or what you do? A protagonist needs something going for them or the story is going to be either real short or real boring. Or both. They don't have to be a Destined One of Prophecy, or the Bearer of the Macguffin, or the Last Heir to the Lost Magic. But they DO need some special quality that allows them to survive and succeed where others fail. Perhaps they are an "Average Joe" to start with. But there needs to be something about them which makes them suited for this story. The Warden in DAO, for example, survived the Joining Ritual, and thus became one of the very few available who could actually kill an archdemon.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Jun 8, 2019 3:32:53 GMT
This whole conversation has me thinking of an elderly woman walking up to Solas, bopping him across the head with a rolling pin, and telling him, "You stop turning people to stone right now young man"
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jun 8, 2019 12:48:13 GMT
I knew this would happen. Fine if the word special is causing such a mental hiccup then think of it as 'what makes them uniquely qualified to take stop Solas'. I thought this would've been a bit of a mouthful so I went for 'special'. And every single protagonist ever has been special in some way. Why does the protagonist even have to be the one to stop Solas? The protagonist does not have to be the most powerful godlike entity in the story, he can be the henchman, a hired helper, or find himself in the situation where he or she can greatly aid the main hero etc. The most interesting and entertaining books (fantasy but also real life war journals) I read feature protagonists who are only a small cog in a much bigger system and not part of the big-wigs, that makes them more relateable and more interesting. The protagonist can be a perfectly normal high-level mercenary. I think playing a high-level mercenary in a story where lots of people like you fight a godlike entity that is about to mend a dimension full of spirits and demons with the real world is very interesting. You don't have to be the chosen one to make this one hell of a story. Heck, I read the journal of a soldier of the 30 year war (1618-1648), back in the renaissance age, boy that was a thrilling story. And he was no general, he was no elite soldier, in fact he was just one of the few literate foot soldiers of that time. And exactly that made it so relateable and interesting.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 8, 2019 17:10:24 GMT
I've opted for ideology but it could also be a matter of training. I basically want to be a slave who leads a successful rebellion to liberate the oppressed people across the north (I'd particularly like to be a native of Seheron). This means they are opposed to both the current set up in the Tevinter Imperium and the Qun. So the life they have led not only makes them a good leader but also gives them the moral authority to be able call out Solas on his bullshit about wanting to save the elven people (ideally I would like to play an elf), when he just left them high and dry after destroying their society so their "freedom" quickly turned sour and they fell prey to whoever decided to call the shots from then on. My rebel leader intends sticking with the hard job of building a new society that is resilient enough not to revert back to the old ways and where no race considers themselves superior to any other.
Whether that means they could "talk Solas down" is debatable since I doubt he can be dissuaded from his plan; if the Inquisitor couldn't convince him, why would my total stranger be better suited to do so? More likely the Inquisitor would need to talk my PC down from simply killing Solas since they would have no reason to think they should try to redeem him.
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formerfiend
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by formerfiend on Jun 8, 2019 17:27:11 GMT
The protagonist needs to be the one to stop Solas because if I don't get to kill that damned elf then I'm not buying the game. If they want to go another route with it, then that's fine, I'll sit this one out and maybe pick up DA5.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 8, 2019 18:36:48 GMT
I knew this would happen. Fine if the word special is causing such a mental hiccup then think of it as 'what makes them uniquely qualified to take stop Solas'. I thought this would've been a bit of a mouthful so I went for 'special'. And every single protagonist ever has been special in some way. Why does the protagonist even have to be the one to stop Solas? The protagonist does not have to be the most powerful godlike entity in the story, he can be the henchman, a hired helper, or find himself in the situation where he or she can greatly aid the main hero etc. The most interesting and entertaining books (fantasy but also real life war journals) I read feature protagonists who are only a small cog in a much bigger system and not part of the big-wigs, that makes them more relateable and more interesting. The protagonist can be a perfectly normal high-level mercenary. I think playing a high-level mercenary in a story where lots of people like you fight a godlike entity that is about to mend a dimension full of spirits and demons with the real world is very interesting. You don't have to be the chosen one to make this one hell of a story. Heck, I read the journal of a soldier of the 30 year war (1618-1648), back in the renaissance age, boy that was a thrilling story. And he was no general, he was no elite soldier, in fact he was just one of the few literate foot soldiers of that time. And exactly that made it so relateable and interesting. An excellent point. In more then one way actually. But I've never said that 'special' has to mean 'chosen one'.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jun 9, 2019 3:05:10 GMT
Training. Training is how people become useful in a crisis. Some have the initiative or intuition or toughness to do okay without, but most people don't, and even the ones who do are liable to make catastrophic mistakes, and training is how you really get there.
One of the things I really detested in Andromeda was the fact that the main character was utterly unqualified for their job, but the game treated it as a challenge to rise to rather than an insanely reckless and irresponsible promotion that put millions of lives in jeopardy. Same to a lesser extent with the Inquisitor becoming Inquisitor. If our character is going to have some large responsibility, which I'm not entirely sure they should, then they should have relevant training that makes them a logical choice on some level.
That said, I don't trust Bioware to write any story that grounded and do it well, or for them to trust the fandom to accept skills and cunning and experience rather than chosen oneism in our protagonists, or an underdog story rather than an epic hero's journey.
They kind of tried in DA2, and it didn't take at all. So they went back to the glowing hands and Pathfinder cyborg fuckery, and we'll definitely have some new stupid-sounding magical doodad for NPCs to heap unearned credit and praise on us over in 4.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Post by melbella on Jun 9, 2019 3:24:31 GMT
One of the things I really detested in Andromeda was the fact that the main character was utterly unqualified for their job, but the game treated it as a challenge to rise to rather than an insanely reckless and irresponsible promotion that put millions of lives in jeopardy. Bolded section: That was kind of the point, certainly at the beginning of the game. In fact, most of the people 'in charge' were unqualified. Tann ring a bell? As for Ryder, s/he was not so unqualified by the end of the story.
Who were these millions in jeopardy, considering the Initiative only had 100K people on the arks in the first place?
Regardless, training can only take a person so far. When something happens so far outside the realm of that training, it puts everyone on a level playing field. Cassandra would be the 'most qualified' to lead the Inquisition, yet she really had no clue what to do other than hit combat dummies to vent her frustration. How exactly did all her training help?
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Post by colfoley on Jun 9, 2019 3:52:06 GMT
Training. Training is how people become useful in a crisis. Some have the initiative or intuition or toughness to do okay without, but most people don't, and even the ones who do are liable to make catastrophic mistakes, and training is how you really get there. One of the things I really detested in Andromeda was the fact that the main character was utterly unqualified for their job, but the game treated it as a challenge to rise to rather than an insanely reckless and irresponsible promotion that put millions of lives in jeopardy. Same to a lesser extent with the Inquisitor becoming Inquisitor. If our character is going to have some large responsibility, which I'm not entirely sure they should, then they should have relevant training that makes them a logical choice on some level. That said, I don't trust Bioware to write any story that grounded and do it well, or for them to trust the fandom to accept skills and cunning and experience rather than chosen oneism in our protagonists, or an underdog story rather than an epic hero's journey. They kind of tried in DA2, and it didn't take at all. So they went back to the glowing hands and Pathfinder cyborg fuckery, and we'll definitely have some new stupid-sounding magical doodad for NPCs to heap unearned credit and praise on us over in 4. I am curious as to see why you don't truse BioWare to give us the kind of character you want when they are the norm for BioWare's style of writing and not the exception. Granted you can say that recent characters of theirs represents a trend going in the wrong direction, and you might be right...but if we just play a 'Spy' for 4 that sounds just like a return to the norm. The Warden-Training and Circumstance- Nothing really made the Warden that special aside from surviving the Joining ritual and having the ability to sense Darkspawn. Hawke- Training and Circumstance- Was a trained soldier in Cailan's army, was trained by one of two criminals at the beginning of DA 2, and used that experience to become Champion. Shepard-Training and Circumstance- Was an Systems Alliance Marine, Special Forces, and thus qualified for Spectre training (though more on this in a bit) And even the Inquisitor had some circumstances involved in their ascension...as others pointed out the Inquisitor was just in the wrong place at the right time which was the only reason they got the Anchor. Yes they were a chosen one but they still had a rather interesting twist...similar to Harry Potter. As far as Ryder is concerned though personally I found it a breath of fresh air to be a character who had to work their way up from the roots and wasn't automatically respected and handed everything for little reason. *coughShepardcough*. It was interesting, if a bit hamfisted perhaps, to go from a crew that practically walked out of a meeting to you, to actually waiting later on and it was refreshing to play a character...especially a BioWare character...that had to constantly prove themselves.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 9, 2019 5:23:23 GMT
I've opted for ideology but it could also be a matter of training. I basically want to be a slave who leads a successful rebellion to liberate the oppressed people across the north (I'd particularly like to be a native of Seheron). This means they are opposed to both the current set up in the Tevinter Imperium and the Qun. So the life they have led not only makes them a good leader but also gives them the moral authority to be able call out Solas on his bullshit about wanting to save the elven people (ideally I would like to play an elf), when he just left them high and dry after destroying their society so their "freedom" quickly turned sour and they fell prey to whoever decided to call the shots from then on. My rebel leader intends sticking with the hard job of building a new society that is resilient enough not to revert back to the old ways and where no race considers themselves superior to any other. Whether that means they could "talk Solas down" is debatable since I doubt he can be dissuaded from his plan; if the Inquisitor couldn't convince him, why would my total stranger be better suited to do so? More likely the Inquisitor would need to talk my PC down from simply killing Solas since they would have no reason to think they should try to redeem him. I chose idealogy for much the same reason. Liberating slaves and eventually leading a rebellion? Appealing. Confronting Solas, who freed slaves only to abandon them and now slaughter their descendents, with aforementioned slave rebellion leader? Double appealing.
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Post by Fredward on Jun 9, 2019 6:56:45 GMT
I mean I picked some cuz I didn't want to keep clicking the [see results] button but meh. I suppose to some degree any story is gonna feature someone special because at the very least you need circumstances that qualify telling a story about them and that'd be kinda weird if you didn't have someone(s) who engaged with those circumstances/who were willing to meet them. Aggressively pedestrian isn't a genre. I think.
So best specialness would be [circumstance: willingness/capacity to meet them] then I'd also be okay with competence, but not preternatural competence. ie they need a Fade expert and your character happens to be one, though that's probably too specific, the idea goes though. I don't like bloodlines (specifically the kind that provides power, legitimacy for something MIGHT be okay but the legitimacy can't be total), artifacts, magic or chosen one (this person is literally the ONLY ONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD that can save us is awful).
I'm worried/expecting the devs to say "Well, since Hawke wasn't a chosen one and DA2 didn't do so well and DAI did great and the Inquisitor was it's obvious players love the power fantasy of being the chosen one way too much for us not to do it." If that winds up being the case what I liked about the Inquisitor was that their specialness, while a fusion of the one I hate the most, wasn't just a boon. The arm hurt and would've killed them eventually. That makes me feel a bit better, that there is a cost to the leverage being the Chosen One grants. Some kind of psychological drawback might be interesting, you get to see/understand more but people consider you (and maybe you are) an occasionally unreliable narrator. Being a Dreamer would be great cuz special + vulnerable to Fade influence but alas non mages and dorfs.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 9, 2019 9:04:55 GMT
Is it too late to change my answer to 'dick size'?
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on Jun 9, 2019 11:52:54 GMT
Is it too late to change my answer to 'dick size'? Well, Rockstar did put a lot of emphasis on horse-balls that shrinks in the cold in their recent title Red Dead Redemption 2, and that was fairly succesful. Bioware... EA... I am sure you can see what you have to do!
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Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
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Post by Beerfish on Jun 9, 2019 12:15:39 GMT
Our protag is going to be a seeker agent.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jun 9, 2019 13:20:12 GMT
Bolded section: That was kind of the point, certainly at the beginning of the game. In fact, most of the people 'in charge' were unqualified. Tann ring a bell? 1) As for Ryder, s/he was not so unqualified by the end of the story. 2) Who were these millions in jeopardy, considering the Initiative only had 100K people on the arks in the first place? 3) Regardless, training can only take a person so far. When something happens so far outside the realm of that training, it puts everyone on a level playing field. Cassandra would be the 'most qualified' to lead the Inquisition, yet she really had no clue what to do other than hit combat dummies to vent her frustration. How exactly did all her training help? 1) Uhm. No. Like, not in the slightest. A few months of combat experience and some quirky adventures do not a qualified intergalactic representative make. 2) You may remember that Pathfinders are in charge of first contact. 3) Have you played DAI recently? Cassandra is the one doing all the heavy lifting. She's literally the one who organizes the Inquisition, calls in and keeps the three main administrators in line and she does it right thanks to her vast training and experience, even aside from giving up pounds of her own flesh to protect one of their key assets in the field. The Herald only inherits the organization when it's already set up in a swanky fortress with lots of connections and powerful benefactors, and Cassandra is still there keeping it running. She's ten times better qualified for the job of Inquisitor than the PC, and if you support her as religious leader for all of Southern Thedas she does that right as well, again thanks to her training and experience. When something happens outside the realm of training, the most exceptionally talented of the trained people are the ones most likely to have the solution. Some random guy off the street won't be able to contribute much... unless he happens to have training and experience that applies even better. There's no level playing field in a crisis. Just the people who have been conditioned to take responsibility and make themselves useful in sensible ways, and the people stumbling around with no idea what to do or look for because nothing has prepared them for having to make calls with serious consequences, or given them the confidence or qualification to be able to do so. I am curious as to see why you don't truse BioWare to give us the kind of character you want when they are the norm for BioWare's style of writing and not the exception. Granted you can say that recent characters of theirs represents a trend going in the wrong direction, and you might be right...but if we just play a 'Spy' for 4 that sounds just like a return to the norm. The Warden-Training and Circumstance- Nothing really made the Warden that special aside from surviving the Joining ritual and having the ability to sense Darkspawn. Hawke- Training and Circumstance- Was a trained soldier in Cailan's army, was trained by one of two criminals at the beginning of DA 2, and used that experience to become Champion. Shepard-Training and Circumstance- Was an Systems Alliance Marine, Special Forces, and thus qualified for Spectre training (though more on this in a bit) And even the Inquisitor had some circumstances involved in their ascension...as others pointed out the Inquisitor was just in the wrong place at the right time which was the only reason they got the Anchor. Yes they were a chosen one but they still had a rather interesting twist...similar to Harry Potter. As far as Ryder is concerned though personally I found it a breath of fresh air to be a character who had to work their way up from the roots and wasn't automatically respected and handed everything for little reason. *coughShepardcough*. It was interesting, if a bit hamfisted perhaps, to go from a crew that practically walked out of a meeting to you, to actually waiting later on and it was refreshing to play a character...especially a BioWare character...that had to constantly prove themselves. You mean to say that it was the exception until 2011, when they had a huge backlash for not making the main character epic and special and world-saving enough among other things. Even putting the protagonist's specific status aside, the way they write most NPCs to eventually be disgustingly worshipful of him/her these days makes me want to throw up at how naked an attempt to appease the more childish and validation-starved fans it is. As you say, it's not inconceivable that they're going to go back on that development. But I certainly wouldn't bet money on it. I didn't find Ryder refreshing in the slightest in that sense. Playing an overgrown teenager who gets credit for saving the galaxy using no personal judgement or earned skills whatsoever felt pretty meaningless. It could have been written in such a way that you're a kid who needs to fight tooth and claw for any recognition, but it isn't. Shepard, on the other hand, is a grown man or woman who has spent over a decade going through the most grueling training known to man and building a career and a reputation based on their actual skills and decisionmaking that qualifies them as well as anyone for what happens. My only reservation about them is that they're still a bit young to have achieved all that. I thoroughly enjoy playing a character who is respected for things they actually did and which actually deserve respect, and like playing up Shepard's military nature in role-playing for that exact reason.
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formerfiend
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: Former_Fiend
Posts: 547 Likes: 955
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formerfiend
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by formerfiend on Jun 9, 2019 14:58:39 GMT
Our protag is going to be a seeker agent. I cannot put into words how not okay with that I am.
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Beerfish
N7
Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
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https://bsn.boards.net/user/314/personal
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Beerfish on Jun 9, 2019 15:16:41 GMT
Our protag is going to be a seeker agent. I cannot put into words how not okay with that I am. My reason for saying that is at the end of DAI in one of the endings they made a bit of a comment about the seekers having to be rebuilt in secret or something along those lines.
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