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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 12, 2019 15:25:02 GMT
I find the way Ubisoft has been turning things around the last 3 years to be quite fascinating. This post sums up well where things were 3 years ago: ...I'LL SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU. Seen The Division? Rainbow Six? Far Cry? Assassin's Creed? The first is a broken mess - more than six months after release, the game is dead and plain worthless. The second is balanced based on a whim - who's crying more, seems like. The third is basically just a copy paste scenario - a few things change, but you get the same old shit in a new look. The fourth is basically beating a dead horse - and I hope I don't need to remind you that the golden age of AC ended with Revelations. Need more? What's so interesting is that everything in the post above was justified. Yet Ubisoft does appear to be successfully redeeming themselves in a large part through it's actions since the low point of AC Unity. How instrumental was the threatened Vivendi takeover? Did being forced to be popular and successful put customers back at the heart of the business? What was the trick? Is their model of redemption one that other studios could emulate?
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 12, 2019 15:44:27 GMT
I agree it's been an interesting turnaround for them. But I haven't been following the company close enough to guess what might have driven this. Change in leadership? Policies? Both?
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Post by azarhal on Jun 12, 2019 15:51:55 GMT
How instrumental was the threatened Vivendi takeover? Yes and no. Ubisoft seems to have opened up to risks (changing recipe in their franchises + more new IPs) to scare off Vivendi. Although, the drop in sales of the AC series and a few others things probably made them realize they had to change the recipe too. I think we happened is more related to internal changes they started in 2011 that only really come to conclusion in 2016. They moved to DevOps with microservices architectures and that including a lots of new systems, technologies, procedures, etc to learn. During that period, development teams that should be working on making games were busy doing supports/development on/for the DevOps stuff. How I know that? Some of my coworkers participate at a conference given by Ubisoft and other companies on the subject (we got the exact same issues they did with it too).
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Post by Serza on Jun 12, 2019 17:36:39 GMT
I'm an angry little motherfucker, aren't I.
While there are improvements, EA is still SOMEHOW more impressive to me. How much of a wow is that these days? My jaw sure dropped.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 12, 2019 19:37:45 GMT
I don't know much about ubisoft in the past since I only ever played Rainbow 6 3....until two years ago. Since then me and my wife bought Far Cry 4, 5, Primal, Odyssey, and GR: Wildlands...which is also pretty much everything we've bought since Andromeda came out.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 12, 2019 19:52:21 GMT
I'm an angry little motherfucker, aren't I. While there are improvements, EA is still SOMEHOW more impressive to me. How much of a wow is that these days? My jaw sure dropped. Wait, what? I guess it depends on priorities. I am not an EA basher. I actually think they published some of the best games out there. But where I would agree with the OP that Ubi is getting better and better with their stuff since 2016, EA is doing the opposite, trying to force Frostbite, GaaS/MP and their silly monetizing strategies on all their games left and right. Honestly, apart from Titanfall 2, which I bought for 10 bucks on sale for the campaign, EA didn't release a single game in the past 2-3 years that I even considered buying after reading up on it. From ME:Andromeda, through Battlefront 2 and Middle Earth:Shadow of War (with their lootbox disasters) through Battlefield V with it's weird update policy all the way to Anthem, it's been one disappointment after another.
They need a serious turn-around.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 12, 2019 19:56:40 GMT
I'm an angry little motherfucker, aren't I. While there are improvements, EA is still SOMEHOW more impressive to me. How much of a wow is that these days? My jaw sure dropped. Wait, what? I guess it depends on priorities. I am not an EA basher. I actually think they published some of the best games out there. But where I would agree with the OP that Ubi is getting better and better with their stuff since 2016, EA is doing the opposite, trying to force Frostbite, GaaS/MP and their silly monetizing strategies on all their games left and right. Honestly, apart from Titanfall 2, which I bought for 10 bucks on sale for the campaign, EA didn't release a single game in the past 2-3 years that I even considered buying after reading up on it. They need a serious turn-around.
If I understand stand GaaS right then Ubisoft is the one pushing it and the ones that seem to be the forerunners of it. Both the new Ghost Recon games, Far Cry, even Odyssey.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 12, 2019 20:00:16 GMT
EA didn't release a single game in the past 2-3 years that I even considered buying after reading up on it. From ME:Andromeda, through Battlefront 2 and Middle Earth:Shadow of War (with their lootbox disasters) through Battlefield V with it's weird update policy all the way to Anthem, it's been one disappointment after another.
They need a serious turn-around.
EA has nothing to do with Middle Earth:Shadow of War, that's a WB game.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 12, 2019 20:02:34 GMT
If I understand stand GaaS right then Ubisoft is the one pushing it and the ones that seem to be the forerunners of it. Both the new Ghost Recon games, Far Cry, even Odyssey. But Ubisoft is doing it in a fairly decent way that works for the customers and doesn't provoke outcries. They manage to generate high quality content for their games and put that out over a year or two (see AC: Origins and Odyssey for example and the Division 2 stuff they showed at E3 also looks promising). They even managed to rescue games that were not well received at launch by pathcing them up and improving content (The Division 1 being the prime example but also For Honor).
They seem to have found a strategy to do it that is perceived as fair, whereas EA's forays into GaaS provoked one shitstorm after another (see my edit for examples above).
I am not trying to say here that GaaS has to be horrible per se, I am saying EA has been handling it badly over the last 3 years.
EA has nothing to do with Middle Earth:Shadow of War, that's a WB game. Oh, sorry, you are correct. Not sure why I lumped that one in with EA. Strike that then, let's substitute their yearly sports games and their lootboxes instead, shall we?
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Post by colfoley on Jun 12, 2019 20:12:20 GMT
If I understand stand GaaS right then Ubisoft is the one pushing it and the ones that seem to be the forerunners of it. Both the new Ghost Recon games, Far Cry, even Odyssey. But Ubisoft is doing it in a fairly decent way that works for the customers and doesn't provoke outcries. They manage to generate high quality content for their games and put that out over a year or two (see AC: Origins and Odyssey for example and the Division 2 stuff they showed at E3 also looks promising). They even managed to rescue games that were not well received at launch by pathcing them up and improving content (The Division 1 being the prime example but also For Honor).
They seem to have found a strategy to do it that is perceived as fair, whereas EA's forays into GaaS provoked one shitstorm after another (see my edit for examples above).
I am not trying to say here that GaaS has to be horrible per se, I am saying EA has been handling it badly over the last 3 years.
EA has nothing to do with Middle Earth:Shadow of War, that's a WB game. Oh, sorry, you are correct. Not sure why I lumped that one in with EA. Strike that then, let's substitute their yearly sports games and their lootboxes instead, shall we? Andromeda wasn't a GaaS. I think this has more to do with gamer bias then any actual difference in quality content. EA and Ubi have very similar models. One is praised for it and one is...not. Perhaps EA is still new at it which explains some of their issues but on the other hand BF 2 has improved since launch via patching and updates which is a hallmark of GaaS.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 12, 2019 21:54:51 GMT
That’s why I started the whole thing by saying that it’s a matter of priorities. That said, given the reactions the EA and Ubi games received in the past 3 years, I’d say I am not the only one with that kind of bias.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Jun 16, 2019 23:38:31 GMT
They've staged a remarkable comeback since Unity bombed. You get the sense Yves and all the big team leads sat down and asked some real hard questions about how to go forward. They've resurrected AC, massively grew the For Honor and Division player bases, maintained Steep and now they have a brand new IP coming next year. They still aren't winning any awards for innovation, but for such a huge company to course correct so effectively is impressive.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 19, 2019 16:38:02 GMT
They still aren't winning any awards for innovation, Definitely not. But the gameplay they do provide just ... flows well. I really like to play Ubi games when I come how from work and don't really want to think too much, just go with the game flow. Most Ubi games do that sort of thing pretty well. Currently playing AC: Rogue and it almost puts me in a trance state each night.
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Post by Serza on Jun 20, 2019 21:47:51 GMT
I'm an angry little motherfucker, aren't I. While there are improvements, EA is still SOMEHOW more impressive to me. How much of a wow is that these days? My jaw sure dropped. Wait, what? I guess it depends on priorities. I am not an EA basher. I actually think they published some of the best games out there. But where I would agree with the OP that Ubi is getting better and better with their stuff since 2016, EA is doing the opposite, trying to force Frostbite, GaaS/MP and their silly monetizing strategies on all their games left and right. Honestly, apart from Titanfall 2, which I bought for 10 bucks on sale for the campaign, EA didn't release a single game in the past 2-3 years that I even considered buying after reading up on it. From ME:Andromeda, through Battlefront 2 and Middle Earth:Shadow of War (with their lootbox disasters) through Battlefield V with it's weird update policy all the way to Anthem, it's been one disappointment after another.
They need a serious turn-around.
Yeah, so I just realized I didn't actually answer. There's a reason it was a jawdropper, but Assassin's Creed is dead and turned into a hack-and-slash that barely resembles the original games. Division was a huge burn with post-launch support (seriously Dark Zone was unplayable due to exploits and glitches everywhere that they didn't seem to give a fuck about - but cosmetic DLCs? Oh yeah, they had those!) and I don't see Div2 having any mindblowing improvements over the predecessor. It's what spawned the "Remember: No Ubisoft" mentality with me. Ghost Recon? Also dead. It used to be a semi-realistic tactical shooter, not a third person power trip with story and voice acting surpassed by many porn movies. What else. Watch Dogs? Yeah, the first kinda blew and the second wasn't even a blip on my radar. I've actually run out of Ubisoft titles, which is interesting.
I used to love Assassin's Creed and Ghost Recon was right up my alley, but take a wild guess what happened. They're no longer like the roots of their respective series. Which (along with what I consider not-quite-so-good-execution) made me ignore their stuff. Meanwhile I had a few very interesting games in that time. Consider the timeline:
GRAW2 (the last Ghost Recon adhering to the roots) - 2007 Medal of Honor 2010 (a very solidly executed FPS from the Tier One unit environment, similar to original GR) - 2010
Medal of Honor: Warfighter (superb story and acceptable multiplayer with interesting twists on the FPS MP) - 2012
GR Phantoms (F2P Multiplayer mess) - 2014 GR Wildlands (Completely abandoned the roots of the series) - 2017 Then there's a few Battlefields somewhere in there, but Ubisoft no longer knows how to make decent FPS games.
Silent Hunter series? Five is a joke compared to Wolves of the Pacific. Assassin's Creed is dead, Jim. Lock-On: Modern Air Combat (LOMAC)? Mhm. Eagle Dynamics went away from Ubisoft and started to sell everything themselves. Now we have DCS World. Thank God for that. Il-2 Sturmovik series? No longer owned by Ubisoft, thankfully. It would end up another War Thunder. Rainbow Six: Became a fast paced 5v5 competitive Counter-Strike clone - far cry from the slow, realistic and tactical shooters of old (Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield was exceptional) Brothers in Arms series: very good semi-realistic shooter. The ultimate/penultimate game stuck in development hell for years now (while Hell's Highway straight up references Battle of the Bulge in the ending). OH YEAH, they tried to bastardize BiA as well. Need I remind you of "Furious 4"?
Oh, we get a new Far Cry every now and then. Copy paste jobs. They've been sitting on a few fairly good air combat arcade series, too. Where did Blazing Angels go? And HAWX? Turning off Fly-by-wire was a neat feature that had a basis in reality. Splinter Cell? All we got is a... cameo? By Sam Fisher in Wildlands. From what I heard, an absolute nightmare of an execution. Blacklist was a so-so game. And just like that you got lucky because I ran out of games that are in my area of interest and I don't think grilling Steep or The Crew is fair.
What did EA's divisions give in that time? (They actually published all the old Jane's sims. I'm actually amazed.)
Well, other than some Dragon Age and Mass Effect, there's Medal of Honor (Legendary series, if you disagree GTFO, not up for discussion), some quite decent Battlefields (since we're spreading back to early 2000s then yes, legendary Battlefields even), you got The Sims which at least show the ability to stay true to the series. Mirror's Edge? Also nicely executed games, even if Catalyst might not have been the best followup.
EA is guilty of sitting on series and never releasing another. Ubisoft is guilty of taking series and perverting them into something completely different, and when they do make something new, it's usually abysmal in execution. So yeah, even EA is more impressive to me than Ubisoft.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 21, 2019 18:58:49 GMT
Serza : I can't really speak to the other titles (not big on R6, Ghost Recon, SIlent Hunter and the like) but as far as AC is concerned, I think you might be looking at the older games through some pretty thick nostalgia glasses. I've been replaying the entire series, starting with AC1 throughout the past year or so (I am now at Rogue, usually write my thoughts on the games in the "Nothing is true..." thread). And in comparison to what the series does today, the early iterations, AC1 especially was very bare bones and they were also very repetitive. AC2 was a huge step forward and the story and pacing in the Ezio trilogy was great but come on, the gameplay was extremely simplistic with the counter-kills and stealth was much more of a game of chance (or just a matter of get as high up as possible, with very little variety). The next iteration (AC3 - Rogue) improved a little with mire different enemy types and more ranged weapons but still, you can basically play them in your sleep. Also having played Origina and Odyssey in the same time period, I find those vastly improved in the gameplay, giving us much more options in combat, more thought through stealth mechanics and honestly, hack and slash without proper timing and evasion is sure to get you killed on anything but the lowest difficulty levels, especially against multiple or strong enemies (as opposed to the earlier ACs, where you could just walk into any fight unless it was simply forbidden by the mission). Don't get me wrong, I like the older AC games just fine and had a lot of fun replaying them but sying that the series went from some sort of sophisticated gameplay wonder to a "hack & slash" is wrong IMO. So yea, on that note at least, I strongly disagree.
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Post by Serza on Jun 22, 2019 9:05:53 GMT
Yeah, those are good observations. What I'm talking about, however, is the change in how gameplay works in... slightly different terms.
Assassinations no longer seem to guarantee kills unless you specifically build for that. Enemies are much greater damagesponges. Stealth (so prominent in earlier games) seems to have taken the second place in favor of hack-and-slash, because you will be made sooner or later when you try to assassinate someone and don't one-hit-kill them.
Essentially what changed is that Assassin's Creed would now be better described as Brawler's Creed.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 24, 2019 4:21:49 GMT
Redeeming themselves?
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 25, 2019 2:26:43 GMT
Yeah, those are good observations. What I'm talking about, however, is the change in how gameplay works in... slightly different terms. Assassinations no longer seem to guarantee kills unless you specifically build for that. Enemies are much greater damagesponges. Stealth (so prominent in earlier games) seems to have taken the second place in favor of hack-and-slash, because you will be made sooner or later when you try to assassinate someone and don't one-hit-kill them. Essentially what changed is that Assassin's Creed would now be better described as Brawler's Creed. Oh, I see. Hmmmm, It is true, you have to build for assassination but if you do, you can pretty much still assassinate everything except very special enemies (such as the the mercenaries in Odyssey, which I will grant you were a bit of a pain). However, I would argue that this makes the gameplay (including stealth) more tactical actually. I have cleared many outposts in AC:O and Od without alerting anyone and doing so is IMO not easy but a hugely rewarding experience (until it gets repetitive but all ACs had that issue). You hide in the bushes, scout and tag enemies and plan your aproach and timing really well. If you mess up, especially on higher difficulties, you really get into trouble.
I get that the RPG elements are not everyone's cup of tea. For my part, I think they improved things considerably.
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Post by SofaJockey on Oct 24, 2019 20:21:23 GMT
Perhaps with Breakpoint, the redemption is tarnished.
Several game launches delayed.
Watch this space...
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Post by colfoley on Oct 24, 2019 20:56:19 GMT
Perhaps with Breakpoint, the redemption is tarnished. Several game launches delayed. Watch this space... really? Interesting.
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Post by correctamundo on Oct 25, 2019 8:00:23 GMT
Perhaps with Breakpoint, the redemption is tarnished. Several game launches delayed. Watch this space... Yeah, for me, I'd say that Breakpoint should have been worked on some more. Still I'm having a blast playing it but there sure are some annoying bugs.
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Post by saandrig on Oct 25, 2019 11:47:22 GMT
Perhaps with Breakpoint, the redemption is tarnished. Several game launches delayed. Watch this space... Ubisoft is know for trying to turn things around with it's live service games. Maybe they are concentrating the teams on fixing Breakpoint, which may explain the delay in everything else. Or they just figured they need more time to polish the games, remove predatory MTX and win back some good will with better releases.
"AC Next" is not said to be delayed, but the game is not even officially announced yet, so Ubisoft may have delayed it too, but doesn't need to point it out.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 25, 2019 18:32:28 GMT
The term predatory microtransaction should probably go away until people have a better grasp what they are talking about.
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Post by SofaJockey on Oct 25, 2019 20:10:14 GMT
Or they just figured they need more time to polish the games, remove predatory MTX and win back some good will with better releases. We have no idea whether the delayed games would have included 'predatory' MTX's. Neither Breakpoint, not The Division 2 contained them.
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Post by correctamundo on Oct 25, 2019 21:20:54 GMT
Predatory mtx in Breakpoint? Good to see that at least someone uncritically swallows just about any clickbait out there.
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