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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 8, 2019 15:40:47 GMT
He's kind of already doing this. Especially the "when your enemies pursue you vanish" part. He doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would stray from the "tried and trusted" way of doing things. Well he has deviated in one important aspect and that is telling a potential opponent what he intends doing. I'm pretty sure he didn't inform the Evanuris what he planned to do in advance. That definitely came under the heading of "strike quickly whilst they are weak/distracted". We know from the Dalish that the gods were shut away during a truce during a war between different factions and if they were right that it was Fen'Harel who engineered it, probably his argument did centre around the fact that they needed to recover their respective strengths. According to the version by Merrill, he even offered to show each side a new weapon that would swing the war in their favour. I certainly think the Dalish were right that getting the Evanuris into the correct place to spring his trap did involve some sort of trickery even if it was the illusion that they might actually capture Fen'Harel. Keeping each of his groups of followers on a need to know basis is likely a tried and test formula to ensure that if captured they cannot reveal too much of what the rest of his group are doing. So even if we run into a cell of Fen'Harel supporters it is unlikely they would be able to reveal much of his over-arching plan. Of course, when you dig down into his conversation with the Inquisitor it is clear that he didn't give too much away and when challenged with the question "why does this world have to die?" actually evades answering it with the response he doesn't want to give them too many clues lest they work it out for themselves (which I always felt was simply the writers saying "spoilers"). Nevertheless, even telling them as much as he did does seem odd behaviour for someone who always seems to keep as much to himself as possible.
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Post by smudjygirl on Sept 8, 2019 16:43:30 GMT
He's kind of already doing this. Especially the "when your enemies pursue you vanish" part. He doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would stray from the "tried and trusted" way of doing things. Well he has deviated in one important aspect and that is telling a potential opponent what he intends doing. I'm pretty sure he didn't inform the Evanuris what he planned to do in advance. That definitely came under the heading of "strike quickly whilst they are weak/distracted". We know from the Dalish that the gods were shut away during a truce during a war between different factions and if they were right that it was Fen'Harel who engineered it, probably his argument did centre around the fact that they needed to recover their respective strengths. According to the version by Merrill, he even offered to show each side a new weapon that would swing the war in their favour. I certainly think the Dalish were right that getting the Evanuris into the correct place to spring his trap did involve some sort of trickery even if it was the illusion that they might actually capture Fen'Harel. Keeping each of his groups of followers on a need to know basis is likely a tried and test formula to ensure that if captured they cannot reveal too much of what the rest of his group are doing. So even if we run into a cell of Fen'Harel supporters it is unlikely they would be able to reveal much of his over-arching plan. Of course, when you dig down into his conversation with the Inquisitor it is clear that he didn't give too much away and when challenged with the question "why does this world have to die?" actually evades answering it with the response he doesn't want to give them too many clues lest they work it out for themselves (which I always felt was simply the writers saying "spoilers"). Nevertheless, even telling them as much as he did does seem odd behaviour for someone who always seems to keep as much to himself as possible. That kind of only counts if the Inquisitor comes back, though. Even with the Inquisitor as an ally, it still plays into the "indirectly do things until you get an opportunity". And it seems that other than Mythal he wouldn't have respected any of the Evanuris to give them the benefit of information. Well, for the Inquisitor I think it is respect to those he likes and arrogance to those he hates. I imagine the Evanuris were at an equal playing field, which no Inquisitor is after the Mark is removed, and no other person in Thedas is at his level save Flemeth or possibly Morrigan. Basically I don't think his reveal of information is too outside his methodology if it appeals to his loyalty or his vanity.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 8, 2019 19:27:11 GMT
Basically I don't think his reveal of information is too outside his methodology if it appeals to his loyalty or his vanity. When it comes to his plans I really don't think he is that shallow that he would tell a hostile Inquisitor simply out of smug bravado and so far as loyalty is concerned, well salving his conscience seems nearer the mark but really I can't see him taking the time to talk with either sort of Inquisitor if it did not directly benefit his own agenda. Now he makes it clear that the Inquisition is riddled with agents, both his own and the Qun. He probably knows that the future of the Inquisition is under discussion so revealing this fact is likely to increase the chances it will be either reduced in size or disbanded altogether, which is something that would be beneficial to him as their network of contacts and powerbase was pretty widespread, which would have made it more likely they would be in a position to interfere with his plans. He also states to a hostile Inquisitor that he foiled the plans of the Qun because they offend him by their mere existence but of course stopping their conquest of the south would make the chances greater of them renewing hostilities against Tevinter, which again probably fed into his schemes because I'm pretty sure they involve items that he suspects are to be found there and his agents will find it easier to carry out their mission if the majority of people have their attention focussed elsewhere. So these two aspects did make it more understandable why he acted as he did.
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Post by smudjygirl on Sept 8, 2019 20:03:42 GMT
Basically I don't think his reveal of information is too outside his methodology if it appeals to his loyalty or his vanity. When it comes to his plans I really don't think he is that shallow that he would tell a hostile Inquisitor simply out of smug bravado and so far as loyalty is concerned, well salving his conscience seems nearer the mark but really I can't see him taking the time to talk with either sort of Inquisitor if it did not directly benefit his own agenda. Now he makes it clear that the Inquisition is riddled with agents, both his own and the Qun. He probably knows that the future of the Inquisition is under discussion so revealing this fact is likely to increase the chances it will be either reduced in size or disbanded altogether, which is something that would be beneficial to him as their network of contacts and powerbase was pretty widespread, which would have made it more likely they would be in a position to interfere with his plans. He also states to a hostile Inquisitor that he foiled the plans of the Qun because they offend him by their mere existence but of course stopping their conquest of the south would make the chances greater of them renewing hostilities against Tevinter, which again probably fed into his schemes because I'm pretty sure they involve items that he suspects are to be found there and his agents will find it easier to carry out their mission if the majority of people have their attention focussed elsewhere. So these two aspects did make it more understandable why he acted as he did. I don't know, he's always revealing little bits to the Inquisitor regardless of whether he likes them or not, or whether the Inquisitor or we players understand. I disagree on one aspect here, though. Even he says the Inquisition as it stood was susceptible to infiltration, like he managed to to. Disbanding would probably make it harder on his part, as he can't get to know what they're doing as easily as if the Inquisition is kept as is. And he is something of a narcissist, which is made worse if you've proved him right in his beliefs. I do think, in that situation, he would tell you things just to be petty. That's mostly differences in how we see his character, though. agree he did it to benefit himself, but there many ways he could have benefited from it. Even if it's just the chance to rub it in your face. I suppose if he was going to see you anyway he may as well. That being said, because I think we'll most likely be a new PC everything that was said there is just meta-knowledge going forward pretty much irrelevant for how it benefits Solas or not. In mynot so knowledgeable opinion, anyway.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 9, 2019 0:34:14 GMT
I get the feeling that he told the inquisitor what he did to get them to do something. Like he's manipulating them by giving them particular, limited information so that they'll do something he needs for his plan to work.
Cause he could of just told the inquisitor your welcome for revealing the qunari, confirmed or denied being fen harel, and then peaced out. No need to tell the inquisitor about the world burning in the raw chaos and this world must die for his etc. But he did tell them so he must want them to know, if whatever he anticipates the inquisitor doing in response to that isn't a part of the plan then telling them would be a pointless risk of that plan.
Perhaps there's something he needs that has special protection from him or beings like him that he thinks the inquisitor can get to, and will because they're trying to stop him, thus giving him access/an easier target to take it from. Perhaps its more about what someone else will do when warned, and he needs the warning to come from someone trustworthy like the inquisitor for it to work. Perhaps its just so that any forces against him will ally under the inquisitors banner, someone he knows and can predict, ensuring his opposition comes from one direction as opposed to the far more difficult to defend against multiple directions with unknown leadership?
I could see this being the case regardless of whether the Herald returns or we get a new pc. It's just if we play the herald then we'll presumably find out we're being manipulated and turn it around, whereas with a new pc the herald is probably being successfully manipulated/distracted/anticipated (or atleast wants it to appear that way) thus affording the new pc the opportunity to come at him sideways.
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Post by sandwichtern on Sept 12, 2019 9:51:02 GMT
Firstly: I know dragons are beings of magic and because of that one shouldn't try to draw comparisons to any real world species. That said, after what we learned about the qunari in DAI, I've been been wondering if dragons follow a non-genetic sex-determination system. By that I specifically mean that a dragon's sex would be determined environmental factors it experiences later in life. In our world, there are many species of fish that change sex over the course of their lifespan, the phenomenon is called sequential hermaphrodism. What I'm thinking is that all or most dragonlings are initially male (like clownfish, the orange-white fish in the movie Finding Nemo) but become female when they either grow the largest and dominant one in their group or even reach certain size. All the high dragons are female, after all. I figured that if the qunari were engineered using the blood of creatures whose biology operates very differently compared to humans, you could also expect the qunari to possess very different view on these sort of matters.
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Post by nopersdeviv on Sept 15, 2019 13:27:45 GMT
Firstly: I know dragons are beings of magic and because of that one shouldn't try to draw comparisons to any real world species. That said, after what we learned about the qunari in DAI, I've been been wondering if dragons follow a non-genetic sex-determination system. By that I specifically mean that a dragon's sex would be determined environmental factors it experiences later in life. In our world, there are many species of fish that change sex over the course of their lifespan, the phenomenon is called sequential hermaphrodism. What I'm thinking is that all or most dragonlings are initially male (like clownfish, the orange-white fish in the movie Finding Nemo) but become female when they either grow the largest and dominant one in their group or even reach certain size. All the high dragons are female, after all. I figured that if the qunari were engineered using the blood of creatures whose biology operates very differently compared to humans, you could also expect the qunari to possess very different view on these sort of matters. I thought the males were wingless drakes and it's the females that have the wings and are the high dragons...maybe I'm wrong but I thought it was briefly touched on somewhere, I just can't remember where. Anyway, that's what I've been going by.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 16, 2019 8:14:56 GMT
I thought the males were wingless drakes and it's the females that have the wings and are the high dragons...maybe I'm wrong but I thought it was briefly touched on somewhere, I just can't remember where. Anyway, that's what I've been going by.
This was the lore in DAO and World of Thedas and there really seems no reason for them to change it. Thus every winged dragon we have encountered has been a female. On the whole we are less likely to encounter the drakes as they spend the entire lives close to the lair where the young are raised. This is why we did encounter them in DAO in the caves where the Disciples of Andraste were based as they were guarding the eggs.
I suppose there might be the possibility of a drake changing gender if there was a shortage of female dragons with which to mate but there is no evidence of it thus far either in game or any of the books. Flemeth and her daughter Yavana went to great lengths to protect the surviving hibernating dragons which would suggest that if they were all killed the race would die out, although it does beg the question, "what about the drakes?" So if the lore regarding dragons was to change at all, I would think it likely would opt for asexual reproduction whereby the dragon fertilises her own eggs, thus removing the need for any male input.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Sept 16, 2019 15:08:28 GMT
^ it's worth noting that the Archdemons/Old Gods do have both genders Dumat and Urthemiel were male for example, with Razikale being the only female
according to the wikia there also used to be an eight Old God who's name and gender have been stricken from history (which was apparently represented with the in-game constellation Draconis)
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Post by sandwichtern on Sept 16, 2019 18:17:28 GMT
Firstly: I know dragons are beings of magic and because of that one shouldn't try to draw comparisons to any real world species. That said, after what we learned about the qunari in DAI, I've been been wondering if dragons follow a non-genetic sex-determination system. By that I specifically mean that a dragon's sex would be determined environmental factors it experiences later in life. In our world, there are many species of fish that change sex over the course of their lifespan, the phenomenon is called sequential hermaphrodism. What I'm thinking is that all or most dragonlings are initially male (like clownfish, the orange-white fish in the movie Finding Nemo) but become female when they either grow the largest and dominant one in their group or even reach certain size. All the high dragons are female, after all. I figured that if the qunari were engineered using the blood of creatures whose biology operates very differently compared to humans, you could also expect the qunari to possess very different view on these sort of matters. I thought the males were wingless drakes and it's the females that have the wings and are the high dragons...maybe I'm wrong but I thought it was briefly touched on somewhere, I just can't remember where. Anyway, that's what I've been going by. Yeah, I know that the simplest way (and probably the way the writers actually meant us to) interpret the lore is that a mother dragon lays a group of eggs and some of them are from the beginning males and some of them are females. I guess I choose to go with this because nothing in the game actively discourages me to interpret the codex facts this way. I just find it a bit unimaginative for dragons to settle for that old method, when we know that, for example, whether a reptile or a turtle egg hatches a baby boy or girl can depend on the temperature of the sand the egg was left to be incubated. To clarify for the replies below nopersdeviv, I'm not actually speculating whether the mother dragon chose copulate with a male dragon in order have their eggs or if they even needed sex for eggs to happen (and I frankly don't care how the eggs came to be). It's I just choose to believe that all the little baby dragonlings we come across are initially male and when they get to the point of being drake-sized (and since we don't see any drake-sized female dragons) this is the actual turning point in which the 'whether this dragon will stay a male or grow up to be a female' occurs. The less dominant males stay the same but the leading male(s) of the group go(es) through a metamorphosis to become a female and starts to develop wings and grow in size. In my theory the change doesn't happen because the imbalance of genders, it's just how they are. I hope I'm not making a total mess of explaining my thought process. 🙃 Edit: if the story of scaly beasts changing sex sounds familiar, you've probably seen something similar in Jurassic Park. Though in the movie the dinosaurs did it to be able to procreate. *** So, to change the topic of the conversation, do you think we absolutely need the blood of an archdemon to concoct the joining potion? I've been wondering if one could make do using the blood of an ancient darkspawn like the one we meet in the deep roads in DA:O. What do you think is the necessary factor we need from a blighted dragon's blood? Is it the inherent magic or simply its potency? If we simply need the blood to have the biggest possible concentration of blight in it, I think the blood of a centuries old darkspawn should also fit the bill. If it's the dragon blood, l guess the first Grey Wardens could have managed to get their first portions from nicking the archdemon as killing it permanently required a Grey Warden. 🤔 Or alternatively, do you think the 'archdemon in a body of a dragon' was killed at the very beginning of the First Blight and the following decades were spent hunting the bodysurfing 'archdemon in a body of a darkspawn' version?
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 16, 2019 18:44:34 GMT
^ it's worth noting that the Archdemons/Old Gods do have both genders Dumat and Urthemiel were male for example, with Razikale being the only female This probably doesn't indicate much about ordinary dragons since it seems highly likely that the Old Gods were not merely dragons but the shape-shifted form of other beings or their split soul vessel, or at the very least possessed by a spirit called from the Fade (as with Hakkon). Also the gender of the Old God may have more to do with the perception of their worshippers than their actual gender since at least two of them changed gender over time. Zazikel started off as the goddess of freedom and Andoral the goddess of unity, yet they are later described as the god of chaos and god of slaves respectively, so their gender would appear to have changed with their perceived area of patronage. It may also have reflected a change to a male dominated society in the Imperium.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 16, 2019 19:02:03 GMT
So, to change the topic of the conversation, do you think we absolutely need the blood of an archdemon to concoct the joining potion? I've been wondering if one could make do using the blood of an ancient darkspawn like the one we meet in the deep roads in DA:O. What do you think is the necessary factor we need from a blighted dragon's blood? Is it the inherent magic or simply its potency? If we simply need the blood to have the biggest possible concentration of blight in it, I think the blood of a centuries old darkspawn should also fit the bill. Well of course in DAO we were told it only required the blood of darkspawn plus some magical input. It wasn't until the Last Flight that it was revealed it also required a drop of arch-demon blood as well. This is why I felt that carrying out the Joining made no sense between Blights because not only is there a high wastage among the recruits but they have only a finite amount of arch-demon blood, so why waste it when it isn't necessary? However, it might account for why the Architect needed warden blood to break the control of the arch-demon's song over the darkspawn because of the presence of the previous arch-demon. However, it is odd that whatever is in the blood allows the wardens to hear the arch-demon and yet blocks the connection when given to darkspawn. What actually makes the arch-demon element essential is probably something even the writers haven't really thought through, just that it is. Or alternatively, do you think the 'archdemon in a body of a dragon' was killed at the very beginning of the First Blight and the following decades were spent hunting the bodysurfing 'archdemon in a body of a darkspawn' version? Clearly at whatever point they discovered the secret of the Joining (it is suggested in the Core Rule Book it came from elves in their ranks which could be significant), the corpse of the vacated arch-demon dragon would presumably still carry its signature in its blood, so that would be their source. In the Darkspawn Chronicles once the arch-demon has body hopped, it transforms its new host's body into that of a dragon. A similar thing happens with Corypheus body hops to the nearest warden but he can control the transformation to a time that is convenient to him. This suggests that it is a form of shapeshifting that is taking place.
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Post by sandwichtern on Sept 16, 2019 19:19:06 GMT
Nice, I hadn't heard the 'fight poison with poison' theory before. Thanks for sharing. So the blood of one archdemon could cancel the song of the other. 🤔
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 17, 2019 8:56:46 GMT
So, to change the topic of the conversation, do you think we absolutely need the blood of an archdemon to concoct the joining potion? I've been wondering if one could make do using the blood of an ancient darkspawn like the one we meet in the deep roads in DA:O. What do you think is the necessary factor we need from a blighted dragon's blood? Is it the inherent magic or simply its potency? If we simply need the blood to have the biggest possible concentration of blight in it, I think the blood of a centuries old darkspawn should also fit the bill. Well of course in DAO we were told it only required the blood of darkspawn plus some magical input. It wasn't until the Last Flight that it was revealed it also required a drop of arch-demon blood as well. This is why I felt that carrying out the Joining made no sense between Blights because not only is there a high wastage among the recruits but they have only a finite amount of arch-demon blood, so why waste it when it isn't necessary? However, it might account for why the Architect needed warden blood to break the control of the arch-demon's song over the darkspawn because of the presence of the previous arch-demon. However, it is odd that whatever is in the blood allows the wardens to hear the arch-demon and yet blocks the connection when given to darkspawn. What actually makes the arch-demon element essential is probably something even the writers haven't really thought through, just that it is. Or alternatively, do you think the 'archdemon in a body of a dragon' was killed at the very beginning of the First Blight and the following decades were spent hunting the bodysurfing 'archdemon in a body of a darkspawn' version? Clearly at whatever point they discovered the secret of the Joining (it is suggested in the Core Rule Book it came from elves in their ranks which could be significant), the corpse of the vacated arch-demon dragon would presumably still carry its signature in its blood, so that would be their source. In the Darkspawn Chronicles once the arch-demon has body hopped, it transforms its new host's body into that of a dragon. A similar thing happens with Corypheus body hops to the nearest warden but he can control the transformation to a time that is convenient to him. This suggests that it is a form of shapeshifting that is taking place. Well dragons do have a higher resistance to the blight. That may be what delays the wardens becoming ghouls for a couple of decades, that the tainted blood is Dragon blood aswell. Archdemons might just be the only tainted Dragons they can find. Though that still doesn't explain why the archdemon blood stops the song from reaching the darkspawn but not the wardens. Maybe it's about the darkspawn, creatures born tainted, being exposed to the blood of someone who wasn't. But then why not just use anyone rather then the difficult to capture Grey warden? Unless the architect just hadn't tried that yet, though he seems like a thorough chap. Maybe the taint in Grey Wardens makes their blood compatible over a normal persons? Eh i dunno. I feel like the difference in effect must some how come down to the darkspawn being a separate tainted magical species.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 23, 2019 4:46:53 GMT
You know what... the Fade is kinda like our Internet in some ways, and in times of Elvenhan it was utilized in a way more conscious manner. And we know just how much weird stuff there is on the Internet. How many times were you on youtube or tik-tok or browsed tumblr or deviantArt or twitter or whatevs and sat there for a moment, dumbfounded, wondering " WTF I just watched"? I have to wonder just how much weird stuff Solas may have seen and how much him being stuck in the Fade and encountering all the weird stuff over the years is what's made him lose confidence in people? Also - would ancient elves create something like silly or weird vids or wrote fanfiction? Or made stuff like Fade movies? What if some of them were not of best quality? What if a brave soul from modern Thedas has decided to venture deep into the Fade and found what they thought was an important memory of events from distant past, but it was in fact an ancient elvhen equivalent of "Sharknado" or "Borat"? Also - if I was an ancient elf I'd totally troll future generations by planting some weird stuff in the Fade
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 23, 2019 9:22:03 GMT
Also - if I was an ancient elf I'd totally troll future generations by planting some weird stuff in the Fade Hmm, I don't know, would they know they were planting visions for the future? I could see demons doing that and Solas admits that even honest spirits can see events from different perspectives, so it is not entirely clear what the true version of events might be. If it was possible to see two versions of Ostagar depending on the spirits you consulted, at least when it comes to the motivations of certain individuals, then it is likely to be the same for events in the distant past as well. What I do wonder is how he discovered exactly who was responsible for the death of Mythal? If he didn't catch them in the act but only came on her corpse after the event and then consulted with spirits at the site, who is to say he got the right version of events? He says that all the Evanuris were collectively responsible and did it out of ambition for greater power but he could be wrong about that. What if some of them were tricked into the murder by others? What if not all of them were responsible at all but he just got a muddled version of events from the spirits? If the mosaic called the Arch-demon ((because it shows a powerful dragon being killed) is actually about the death of Mythal, then it is suggested that the dragon/Mythal knew that the ones committing the deed were not really responsible but instead a figure standing at a distance as though not involved who "faked" striking at it. You see what strikes me is how few elves apparently knew that Mythal had been murdered. Abelas, as her high priest, was aware but it is not clear even he knew who was responsible, only that Fen'Harel wasn't. Now if it had been more widely know among the elves, why didn't their stories mention it? Given how the majority remembered a version of history where Fen'Harel was the bad guy, why wasn't her murder placed at his door as well? Except, of course, it was passed down that the Evanuris trusted him right up until the moment he locked them away, which we know was not true. Furthermore his followers would have known it as well. So why was the version of history received by the later generations one which seemed to reflect the situation before Mythal's murder, when Solas was still trusted by her and presumably by the others as well? I keep returning to that story of the Betrayal of Fen'Harel told us by the Dalish. I do not believe they could have got events so wrong as in many respects they got so much right. Fen'Harel did shut away the gods but his motivations were simply different from the one's attributed to him. The story says he imprisoned two sets of gods and it was never clear in Trespasser if the term Evanuris applied to just the Creators or the Forgotten Ones as well. We know from JoH that one of the Forgotten Ones, Gelduran, clearly did not accept the Creators claim to godhood or authority over him, so it is plausible, given Solas' view of the gods, that the Forgotten Ones would see him as an ally. We also know from the story that Fen'Harel engineered a truce between the two factions during a major war, during which he enacted his plan against them. Solas confirmed that he moved when he did to prevent the Evanuris from destroying the world and a major war between two factions of ancient elves with god-like powers would likely threaten the fabric of reality, so that part of the story may be true as well. What is odd is that the victors are usually the ones who control which version of history is handed down to posterity, yet given the motivations and identity attributed to Fen'Harel, it would seem it was the followers of the Creators who ultimately won the war, even though Fen'Harel had succeeded in removing their leaders. It is their version of history that was passed down to the Dalish. It would seem that later elves did not possess the power to consult with spirits of the Fade about what happened because otherwise you would think somewhere along the line they would have learned the different version of events.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 25, 2019 20:27:51 GMT
You know what... the Fade is kinda like our Internet in some ways, and in times of Elvenhan it was utilized in a way more conscious manner. [...] Also - would ancient elves create something like silly or weird vids or wrote fanfiction? Or made stuff like Fade movies? What if some of them were not of best quality? [...] Well I'm not sure if it is fanfiction per se....but we do have the " Birds of Fancy" in Trespasser. Even if it is instead a memory of a real event or a dreamed fantasy, it is still humorus to think that the elves were willing to mark this memory regardless. And while not exactly like what you are describing, we know that the demon Shah Wyrd from DAO is essentially 'distraction made flesh' that was made from powerful minds within the fade. And if the Watchguard of the Reaching notes are any indication, these powerful minds were deep deep in the fade, and were either near or inside the black city (*cough* evanuris and/or wispMythal *cough*).
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 26, 2019 0:07:51 GMT
You know what... the Fade is kinda like our Internet in some ways, and in times of Elvenhan it was utilized in a way more conscious manner. [...] Also - would ancient elves create something like silly or weird vids or wrote fanfiction? Or made stuff like Fade movies? What if some of them were not of best quality? [...] Well I'm not sure if it is fanfiction per se....but we do have the " Birds of Fancy" in Trespasser. Even if it is instead a memory of a real event or a dreamed fantasy, it is still humorus to think that the elves were willing to mark this memory regardless. And while not exactly like what you are describing, we know that the demon Shah Wyrd from DAO is essentially 'distraction made flesh' that was made from powerful minds within the fade. And if the Watchguard of the Reaching notes are any indication, these powerful minds were deep deep in the fade, and were either near or inside the black city (*cough* evanuris and/or wispMythal *cough*). The Birds Of Fancy is usually interpreted a memory of ancient elvhen/Fade sex. The pair even got caught and someone indignantly advised them to get a room However, we do know that one of the spirits seems to have written a fanfiction of Varric's book (and Cole says in vanilla DAI that spirits also replay/create scenes from his books in the Fade - Iguess from memories of readers?) Anyway - it's not controversial or even new to say that the Fade is full of made-up stuff and none of it should be taken at face-value. And it's also not just Chantry talk. We know that Solas is also cautious about whether is something true true or figment of the Fade. However, he notes that the Fade is hardly different than history books of modern Thedosians* - which is fair. Not even supposedly objective history books are usually entirely free of author's bias or limitations. Any record - and subsequently a memory in the Fade - may be trying to portray events their way or pushing an agenda or muddying facts for some ulterior motives, etc. Thus, reason and logic (and likely an extensive knowledge of the field) is necessary to separate fact from fiction. Although... in a world where willpower is a palpable force on the world it's probable that wills strong enough are actually able to bend reality to their wishes (which is what Solas may be after). Question remains to what extent it can be done, especially in the world as it is now. *(what I like about this comment is that it both works as in-universe exposition as well as a wink from DA writers telling us how to approach Thedas's lore, given that it is virtually all written from biased in-world perspectives).
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Post by colfoley on Sept 26, 2019 2:32:08 GMT
Speaking of in Fade theories, sort of, I have been thinking about the theory that was bumping around how Elves are basically spirits or evolved spirits or sundered spirits...in relation to Cole.
During Coles quest we get a huge moral conversation on what to do with him. Solas keep him how he is...Varric make him more human (complex).
In relation to all these conversations its occurred to me on just how adamant Solas was and connecting that to the rest of his philosophy. And what if this is why he is so set on how people should follow their nature and why he was so concerned about Cole is because he views the 'evolutuon' from spirit to Elf as a bad thing. Bringing nothing but suffering.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Sept 26, 2019 9:28:12 GMT
Speaking of in Fade theories, sort of, I have been thinking about the theory that was bumping around how Elves are basically spirits or evolved spirits or sundered spirits...in relation to Cole. During Coles quest we get a huge moral conversation on what to do with him. Solas keep him how he is...Varric make him more human (complex). In relation to all these conversations its occurred to me on just how adamant Solas was and connecting that to the rest of his philosophy. And what if this is why he is so set on how people should follow their nature and why he was so concerned about Cole is because he views the 'evolutuon' from spirit to Elf as a bad thing. Bringing nothing but suffering. I personally tend to make Cole more human, as Varric suggests during the quest, he already is more then a spirit Solas wants to strip him back to the base Compassion spirit Cole was when he first left the Fade
I like the moral of the quest, and always wonder which is the correct path in it having him learn and grow (Varric) having him return to his basis and return to how he was before (Solas)
while I can see Solas' view on it, it also makes me think about the conversation one can have with Abelas if the Inquisitor is an elf themselves as I recall it boils down to something like "look around you, your world no longer exists"
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Post by annia on Sept 27, 2019 16:26:36 GMT
I get the feeling that he told the inquisitor what he did to get them to do something. Like he's manipulating them by giving them particular, limited information so that they'll do something he needs for his plan to work. Cause he could of just told the inquisitor your welcome for revealing the qunari, confirmed or denied being fen harel, and then peaced out. No need to tell the inquisitor about the world burning in the raw chaos and this world must die for his etc. But he did tell them so he must want them to know, if whatever he anticipates the inquisitor doing in response to that isn't a part of the plan then telling them would be a pointless risk of that plan. Perhaps there's something he needs that has special protection from him or beings like him that he thinks the inquisitor can get to, and will because they're trying to stop him, thus giving him access/an easier target to take it from. Perhaps its more about what someone else will do when warned, and he needs the warning to come from someone trustworthy like the inquisitor for it to work. Perhaps its just so that any forces against him will ally under the inquisitors banner, someone he knows and can predict, ensuring his opposition comes from one direction as opposed to the far more difficult to defend against multiple directions with unknown leadership? I could see this being the case regardless of whether the Herald returns or we get a new pc. It's just if we play the herald then we'll presumably find out we're being manipulated and turn it around, whereas with a new pc the herald is probably being successfully manipulated/distracted/anticipated (or atleast wants it to appear that way) thus affording the new pc the opportunity to come at him sideways. I'm so glad I'm not the only one to think so. It seemed to me that he went into a lot of trouble to make sure that the inquisitor managed to find him on that particular day and I don't doubt for a second that being the trickster that he is, he had planned what he was going to say in advance. Revealing that he was going to destroy the world wouldn't benefit him unless he needed the inquisitor to try to stop him.
My head cannon is that Solas knows that taking down the veil might not cause nearly as large a devastation than he is letting us understand (hard to be certain since its never been done, though...), but he is telling the inquisitor that it will, because the inquisitor needs a creditable threat if (s)he is going to unite the world under his/her banner once more. Once Solas takes down the veil, he is letting out all sorts of nastiness from the Black City and without an army of the people wanting to stop him, they might be able to get a far too strong a foothold in the real world before they can be defeated. Just like in the Hobbit, the two armies are going to unite to fight a common enemy, which the blighted creatures in the black city certainly are.
The reason I think so is Sandal's Prophesy: One day the magic will come back, all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The Shadows will part and the sky will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see.
To me that seems to indicate that Solas is definitely going to manage to take down the veil, no question about it. I just don't think that the magic coming back will as devastating as most of the fanbase seems to think, because the ancestors of everyone alive in Thedas right now used to already live there before the veil. At least unless you believe that humans have some kind of otherworldly origins, or you believe that Thedas used to be the only continent that had magic pre-veil. Large majority of people today shouldn't be all that much more incompatible with magic than they were back then. The main reason why people have had so much trouble with spirits and demons after the veil went up is the fact that they have been desperate to get back to the real world. Once the veil is gone, they wont have the same motivation to possess people anymore.
Mages will become much more common and the trained mages will be in high demand in teaching them how not to destroy everything around them since mages will have much more power at their disposal as well. The veil going down will solve the mage problem, since mages will be so common that they will be impossible to imprison, as they will probably form the majority. We know that all Elvhen used to be mages and elves have been breeding with humans ever since they came into contact. I'd guess there are probably more humans who have elvhen blood than there are pure blooded humans these days. The humans might have had mages of their own as well.
So Solas is letting the inquisitor know his "plans" because the real plan is to get as many peopleas possible there to fight the Blight that will be released from the Black City and people aren't just going to show up because he asks nicely. He is simply taking advantage of the fact that his reputation is not the best right now, so people are definitely going to believe he is up to no good. I think the timing supports that as well: as soon as the inquisition started to lose its power because the people no longer saw the need for their excistence, since the threat that they had been formed to oppose was gone, Solas presented himself as a new one. The inquisitor had already proven that (s)he had what it takes to get people to rally behind him/her, but needed a new cause.
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Post by annia on Sept 27, 2019 16:54:47 GMT
We also know that Blood Magic can purify things infected with the Blight (Merrill's Eluvian shard and Isseya's eggs), so that could probably play into why Tevinter (the Blood Magic capital) is better off compared to the Anderfels. Also, we don't actually know where Andruil's lands used to be. You know, the ones that got eaten by plague pre-veil. Might have been in Anderfels. Perhaps Anderfels is so bad off because the land hadn't completely recovered from the original blight when the first recorded blight happened.
I imagine that some Evanuris would have tried to protect their centers of power against blight magic, but the ones that were using it probably didn't. I'm not trying to say that Tevinter mages didn't use blood magic to clean their country after the blights. I'm pretty sure they did.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 27, 2019 20:04:22 GMT
We also know that Blood Magic can purify things infected with the Blight (Merrill's Eluvian shard and Isseya's eggs), so that could probably play into why Tevinter (the Blood Magic capital) is better off compared to the Anderfels. Also, we don't actually know where Andruil's lands used to be. You know, the ones that got eaten by plague pre-veil. Might have been in Anderfels. Perhaps Anderfels is so bad off because the land hadn't completely recovered from the original blight when the first recorded blight happened.
I imagine that some Evanuris would have tried to protect their centers of power against blight magic, but the ones that were using it probably didn't. I'm not trying to say that Tevinter mages didn't use blood magic to clean their country after the blights. I'm pretty sure they did.
My bet would be on Tirashan. There's too much weird stuff going on there, plus the whole cult of Masked Andraste, a supposed HUNTRESS-aspect of Andraste whose cult's symbol is A BOW, for me reeks of either influences or even direct links to Andruil. I'm willing to bet a golden nug that Tirashan was either her domain or a domain she deeply desired/desires. If I were to link Anderfels (or The Donarks neighboring it) to any Evanuris it would likely be Falon'Din.
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Post by annia on Sept 27, 2019 20:25:29 GMT
Also, we don't actually know where Andruil's lands used to be. You know, the ones that got eaten by plague pre-veil. Might have been in Anderfels. Perhaps Anderfels is so bad off because the land hadn't completely recovered from the original blight when the first recorded blight happened.
I imagine that some Evanuris would have tried to protect their centers of power against blight magic, but the ones that were using it probably didn't. I'm not trying to say that Tevinter mages didn't use blood magic to clean their country after the blights. I'm pretty sure they did.
My bet would be on Tirashan. There's too much weird stuff going on there, plus the whole cult of Masked Andraste, a supposed HUNTRESS-aspect of Andraste whose cult's symbol is A BOW, for me reeks of either influences or even direct links to Andruil. I'm willing to bet a golden nug that Tirashan was either her domain or a domain she deeply desired/desires. If I were to link Anderfels (or The Donarks neighboring it) to any Evanuris it would likely be Falon'Din. And since there are enough hints in the lore that Falon'Din was into all kinds of hinky magic that others avoided, I can't even dislike that suggestion.
I have to admit that I can't even remember ever hearing any details about Tirashan, but I can't fault your logic there, even though a pretty, dense forest doesn't really provide hints of a previous forgotten blight, but I guess it would be pretty much a pipe dream that the land would not have recovered by now... Here's to hoping that we'll actually get to explore it in DA4.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 27, 2019 22:48:55 GMT
My bet would be on Tirashan. There's too much weird stuff going on there, plus the whole cult of Masked Andraste, a supposed HUNTRESS-aspect of Andraste whose cult's symbol is A BOW, for me reeks of either influences or even direct links to Andruil. I'm willing to bet a golden nug that Tirashan was either her domain or a domain she deeply desired/desires. If I were to link Anderfels (or The Donarks neighboring it) to any Evanuris it would likely be Falon'Din. And since there are enough hints in the lore that Falon'Din was into all kinds of hinky magic that others avoided, I can't even dislike that suggestion.
I have to admit that I can't even remember ever hearing any details about Tirashan, but I can't fault your logic there, even though a pretty, dense forest doesn't really provide hints of a previous forgotten blight, but I guess it would be pretty much a pipe dream that the land would not have recovered by now... Here's to hoping that we'll actually get to explore it in DA4.
The information about Masked Andraste comes from The Last Court, in case you haven't played it. It's available via Dragon Age Keep - I recommend at least one playthrough; there's nothing monumentally revelatory there, but there are still enough juicy bits for lore-junkies and speculators to extract, like the whole looks-suspiciously-like-Andruil Andraste cult Anyway - the record does mention that after Mythal deals with Andruil peace has returned. Whether it means that the plague that ate her lands was dealt with too remains an unknown, but then again Tirashan is indeed a dangerous, mysterious forest till this day (which is underlined heavily in TLC too) and we don't really know all the nuances of that magical system or how the Blight works or relates to all of it to say what exact side-effects it can have on a pre-Veil lands. Anyway, I think that either the Veil or not of enough time passing makes the Blight more difficult to purge from modern lands, however I do recall banter on Western Approach in which Solas is astonished that he sees life coming back to the region and doing so after relatively recent corruption. So there are processes of recovery even in Veiled world the speed or even mere existence of which surprise even folks like Solas. One can imagine that a place so overgrown with forest (where forests or even plants overall seem to be significantly tied to elves and even more so to Elvenhan) may be more resilient to Blight or are better at regeneration.
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