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Post by annia on Dec 26, 2019 19:22:17 GMT
Ah....pardon? Back up for me, because I was under the impression we were talking about if the codex entries found in the Vir Dirthara and while they may be a truth, they were neccesarily the truth and that the interpretations of reading can potentially slightly vary given what we know of the nature of the library itself? I wasn't aware the existence of legit slavery in Arlathan was even in this particular debate. I thought the series made it clear that there were classes among the elves and that later entries (particularly Trespasser) all but broadcast that there were slaves--or at least slave class equivalents--in the time of Arlathan.Such was my assumption as well! But this larger discussion stemmed from a few folks in Schmooples Den questioning whether the institution of slavery has indeed existed in Arlathan or whether it was something more...er... benign?, like willing servitude or devotion to one's god - which in itself stemmed from a discussion of how accurate the Dalish folklore is if compared to true sequence of events (especially given its pro-Evanuris bent). Solas was pretty clear that slaves were a thing, when he talked about vallaslins to Lavellan. I admit that it is a somewhat interesting point to wonder when real slavery became a thing in Elvhenan. I always asumed that they somehow compelled dwarves to mine lyrium for them. Access to lyrium lead to developments that greatly increased the power of the Evanuris, eventually leading to their godlike status. Once they started to war among themselves, they needed a way to guarantee the loyalty of their servants and followers, which would have provided motivation to enforce their will upon them in a more magical way. The vallaslin prevented other members of the pantheon from stealing their slaves, so once someone started to use them, the others couldn't not follow suit. I assume that the change from being expected to devote your life to your god and being magically compelled to servitude was a quite rapid one, because of this. The people who were bound might even have asumed that it was a temporary war time act and did not try to fight it.
It is implied that Solas was originally a spirit, who took a body during a war period, to serve as one of Mythal's generals. He used to carry a Mythal's vallaslin and was therefore basically a slave, but managed to remove the vallaslin, therefore managing to regain his freedom.
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Post by annia on Dec 26, 2019 19:53:18 GMT
I don't think it'll be as simple as "Happy Titan = Blue Lyrium, Angry Titan = Red Lyrium." We know that the Titans shape The Stone, and The Stone has an impurity called "The Gangue" which is specifically called a "corruption" just as the Blight/Taint is. I imagine that the Titans infused Lyrium with the Gangue using their form of magic, turning it into Red Lyrium and weaponizing for use against the Evanuris. Related to the Titans need to reconnect, I think it's possible that the Dwarves' Stone Sense is essentially the Titans calling out to them, or at least some echo of their former connection. I also want to amend what I said about the relationship between Titans and Darkspawn, after thinking about it more. I do agree that there is probably some subconscious link between the two which is why the Darkspawn don't go near the Titans. I think the darkspawn are connected to a blighted Titan and that Titan recognises its fellow Titans, or the other titans manage to repell their compatriots attention somehow. I don't think the darkspawn themselves have any kind of link to the regural Titans.
In the Last Flight, the warden lady (whose name I can't remember) accidentally created the griffin blight that killed them off by using blood magic. In trespasser there was that text that said something like "What the Evanuris have created may doom us all." This lead me to suspect that the blight was actually created by the Evanuris, maybe as an attempt to drive the Titans mad or remove their capacity for logical thought. Clearly this backfired on them, leaving them in rather desperate straights. This might have even been the "shield made of void" that Andruil created.
We know that Andruil's lands were devoured by a sickness that I always assumed was the blight.
Solas also feels quite helpless before it and fears it; an unsolved disaster that he doesn't have any way to do anything about. This leads me to conclude that Blight was probably the reason why the veil was created; the problem they were fighting against when he was last active. Some of the Evanuris probably experimented with blight magic themselves and were corrupted by it, becoming a part of the problem. It is possible that the other Evanuris actually helped in its creation. They just weren't perhaps told that they would be trapped on the other side of the veil as well. Maybe that wasn't even the original plan, but shit happens. But once things started to go wrong with the plan, Solas was angry enough with them because of Mythal's death that he wouldn't stop just to let the uncorrupted Evanuris out. He certainly expected to have the power to take the veil down later. My guess is he expected to have help. With everyone else locked up his only option was the Orb, which had absorbed magic over countless ages. It is hard to say whether they realized beforehand what the veil would do to the world.
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Post by annia on Dec 26, 2019 20:21:26 GMT
So the elves, specifically Mythal, seem to be responsible for destroying many titans and severing their connection with the dwarven race on a conscious level, although the Descent showed that not all were affected but these were at a lower level than the normal Deep Roads. It is in the Descent that we discover that lyrium is the blood of titans. Now originally we were told that lyrium is a mineral mined from rock, so I assume this means the stuff the dwarves mine is crystalised blood from dead titans that looks like a blue/green mineral, whereas the lyrium from living titans is a silvery liquid.
Trespasser also showed that Mythal and her side-kick Fen'Harel seemed to be overseers of lyrium mining on behalf of the elves. I've long felt that the red lyrium idol in DA2 reminded me of Flemeth and the latest trailer seems to confirm this connection with Mythal and Fen'Harel. The idols ears are apparently rounded like a human's though. Which does not completley discount the theory but I think there is more going on with its imagery per se..more the idea that there seems to be a lot of repeating imagery in Dragon Age. This is more of a thematic/ meta/ in world perspective theory...but your post makes me think that it might be kind of funny if the Dwarves are the ones that end up being super environmentally consious...at least out of the ancient races. Elves are typically portrayed as the ones who are the 'tree huggers' of the races where Dwarves are super industrious/ technical and humans are often in the middle. And in Dragon Age humans are still portrayed as this way but Morrigan claims that humans trample over everything and destroys everything 'mystical' in the world. And while she was thinking that the Elves were superior in this regard and part of the mystical past she wants to perserve/ restore in the face of human greed this post indicates that the Elves were just as greedy and just as destructive to the natural order as humanity and it was the Dwarves who are somehow closer to the Earth, or at least the buiders of the Earth. Of course if you look at the relationship between the Dwarves and Titans via the Sha Brytol I kind of get the feeling that the Titans weren't exactly benign either and the Dwarves were basically mindless...ants. Not an exisistence I would want. Of course at the end of the day one of the things which has always confused me about DA was the ancient timeline or what I at least think is an inconsistency. Based on what we know it seems kind of *obvious* that the Elves were mining Lyrium which led them into conflict with the Dwarves. This is the war that Solas was probably talking about and the war which likely led...somehow...to the formation of Red Lyrium. But...why? Why would the Elves want to mine Lyrium when the Veil hadn't been formed and the Fade and the World were the same? I mean it would make much more sense to me if they wanted to mine Lyrium AFTER Solas created the Veil in order to try and recapture their Empire...but the timeline does not support that. Unless (and I literally just thought of this) that Lyrium was mined specifically by Solas's (and probaby Mythal's) rebels as weapons in the first place because we 'know' that even in a pre Veil world there were some Eves that were more equa then others (I've personally always thought these were the dreamers ike Feynreal, the ability to control the Fade in a Pre Veil world would've been devestating) and that the mining of Lyrium was the only way to even the scales...which then ironically bought them into conflict with the Dwarven gods. lol wouldn't it just be hilarious if we found out Solas is the one who *acidentally* started the war between the Elves and Dwarves in the first place? (This post was a lot longer and more rambly then I intended, my appologies) Valta's writings make clear that the Sha'Brytol aren't actually properly connected to their Titan like she is. They have some kind of process that they undertake to try to imitate the ancient way of being that probably only fragmentary information still survives on. It is worth mentioning that dwarves that were connected to a Titan used to be taller and might have been different to modern day dwarves in other ways as well. Modern dwarves have rounded ears. It is possible that the Lyrium statue depicts one of the dwarven ancestors, not an actual human. Is this a sufficently crazy idea to be featured on this thread?
Like Kieran said: "But you can't be taller, not without the Titans."
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 26, 2019 23:44:50 GMT
Such was my assumption as well! But this larger discussion stemmed from a few folks in Schmooples Den questioning whether the institution of slavery has indeed existed in Arlathan or whether it was something more...er... benign?, like willing servitude or devotion to one's god - which in itself stemmed from a discussion of how accurate the Dalish folklore is if compared to true sequence of events (especially given its pro-Evanuris bent). Solas was pretty clear that slaves were a thing, when he talked about vallaslins to Lavellan. I admit that it is a somewhat interesting point to wonder when real slavery became a thing in Elvhenan. I always asumed that they somehow compelled dwarves to mine lyrium for them. Access to lyrium lead to developments that greatly increased the power of the Evanuris, eventually leading to their godlike status. Once they started to war among themselves, they needed a way to guarantee the loyalty of their servants and followers, which would have provided motivation to enforce their will upon them in a more magical way. The vallaslin prevented other members of the pantheon from stealing their slaves, so once someone started to use them, the others couldn't not follow suit. I assume that the change from being expected to devote your life to your god and being magically compelled to servitude was a quite rapid one, because of this. The people who were bound might even have asumed that it was a temporary war time act and did not try to fight it.
It is implied that Solas was originally a spirit, who took a body during a war period, to serve as one of Mythal's generals. He used to carry a Mythal's vallaslin and was therefore basically a slave, but managed to remove the vallaslin, therefore managing to regain his freedom.
Yes, Solas was pretty clear about that, but the opposing argument was made under the assumption that Solas shouldn't be believed - that he's either lied, or embellished his side of the story in order to look more sympathetic or his actions more justifiable. I think there's enough materials and hints unrelated to Solas that totally points at slavery being a thing in Elvenhan tho. I think I agree that lyrium/Titans played an important part in Evanuris' road to power and then subsequent domination/wars between themselves. I'm just not sure that this was just about lyrium - we still don't know what that 'something else' was that Inky mentioned while commenting on rune we find on Solas's mural in Deep Roads in Trespasser. Anyway, I personally think that vallaslins played some sort of role that was different compared to what it eventually devolved into. Mythal's Temple Sentinels suggest that it was a marking for priests and willing servants. It was very likely magical in nature - maybe something that not only served as identifier of which god one follows, but perhaps a symbol of protection. It's hardly a new concept where a given deity or bloodline protect people from something sinister, by pledging loyalty to them or wearing distinct markings/sigils associated with them. However, I don't think that the markings may have prevented others from stealing slaves - Solas does mention in ToM that Falon'Din began wars to amass more worshipers and that Mythal eventually rallied the gods once he began threatening her lands and people. Anyway - I'm not sure if, at a time Solas was serving Mythal, the service to gods or their markings were yet slavery, although who knows when exactly things devolved to becoming that.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 26, 2019 23:57:43 GMT
Valta's writings make clear that the Sha'Brytol aren't actually properly connected to their Titan like she is. They have some kind of process that they undertake to try to imitate the ancient way of being that probably only fragmentary information still survives on. It is worth mentioning that dwarves that were connected to a Titan used to be taller and might have been different to modern day dwarves in other ways as well. Modern dwarves have rounded ears. It is possible that the Lyrium statue depicts one of the dwarven ancestors, not an actual human. Is this a sufficently crazy idea to be featured on this thread? Like Kieran said: "But you can't be taller, not without the Titans." Well, we do know from pages of Valta's journal that, after being re-connected to Titan, she began changing. For all we know she may as well be tall as a mountain now ;P It does intrigue me when she mentions that the dwarven race 'broke in two' - some people suggest that it's supposed to be about dwarves from Kal'Sharok and Orzammar, being two remaining dwarven enclaves of those still living underground - but that doesn't make sense to me, as she is definitely speaking about something that has happened way earlier, during times that were lost to history, before Titans fell, so likely sometime before or during the apparent dwarven-elvhen war. The elf taken underground by Qunari in order to study remains of Elvhen presence in Deep Roads suggests that elves of Arlathan may have driven the dwarves underground. It's that character's personal suggestion, but it may not be far off mark. I recall that Cole makes a cryptic comment in Deep Roads, in which he says that "their ancient shapers were mountains drawn of all their wills, walking their memories into valleys of the world". Valleys aren't located underground.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 27, 2019 15:34:26 GMT
However, I don't think that the markings may have prevented others from stealing slaves - Solas does mention in ToM that Falon'Din began wars to amass more worshipers and that Mythal eventually rallied the gods once he began threatening her lands and people. It occurred to me that if Falon'Din had always been the god of the dead then among immortal people his role was somewhat redundant unless they died from something other than old age. Basically that meant either an unfortunate accident, disease (according to Gisharel something that was not known initially among the People) or violent death through murder or war. So it did make sense that he would deliberately cause strife among the gods and start wars, which in turn would lead to more dead souls, effectively his worshipers. It also seems evident from the memories in the Library that Mythal did her best to avert this, which is why Falon'Din initially avoided the lands under her control and why he strikes me as the number one suspect in causing her death.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 27, 2019 15:53:32 GMT
However, I don't think that the markings may have prevented others from stealing slaves - Solas does mention in ToM that Falon'Din began wars to amass more worshipers and that Mythal eventually rallied the gods once he began threatening her lands and people. It occurred to me that if Falon'Din had always been the god of the dead then among immortal people his role was somewhat redundant unless they died from something other than old age. Basically that meant either an unfortunate accident, disease (according to Gisharel something that was not known initially among the People) or violent death through murder or war. So it did make sense that he would deliberately cause strife among the gods and start wars, which in turn would lead to more dead souls, effectively his worshipers. It also seems evident from the memories in the Library that Mythal did her best to avert this, which is why Falon'Din initially avoided the lands under her control and why he strikes me as the number one suspect in causing her death. We do know that the concepts of death and mortality were present in Elvenhan. We know Fen'Harel calls himself a mortal and calls Evanuris 'mortals powerful in magic', even if he admits that the First of his People don't die easily. We just don't know what really death entailed in times of elves - is being forgotten death? Is having memory wiped death? In a sense they are and the concept may have held more meaning in a culture where metaphors and symbols are literal in many ways. Also - we have hints and clues suggesting that reincarnation in Thedas is a thing. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was an important part in long lives of elves. If such was the case, then Falon'Din may have played a tremendously important role, being one who was either involved or maybe even in control of the process of migration of spirits/souls to places where they can be reborn and then maybe back to world of living again. Annnnnd, if this whole process perhaps released the elvhen from bounds of particular gods, one would think Falon'Din would be in a position to snatch newly reborn elves for himself.
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Post by xerrai on Dec 28, 2019 20:47:50 GMT
We also need to consider if "death" can also be applied to those in Uthenera. At least in a metaphorical sense. By all accounts, elders in uthenera are dead to the world and only really 'live' in the fade--traveling its paths and exploring its depths.
I wouldn't be surprised if before Falon'Din, it wouldn't be unheard of for elders in uthenera to simply get lost in the fade while they slept even though thier body was in pristine condition. But then Falon'Din came as a "master scryer" and "guide" that could potentially find these lost souls and ensure they remained safe in the fade's ever-changing paths. So basically what midnight tea said with elves 'forgetting'/'losing' themselves and being able to 'die' that way.
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Post by xerrai on Dec 28, 2019 21:46:57 GMT
Also is now a good time to bring up Dirthamen? Because while we have stories of Falon'Din's deeds, we almost never hear about his twin even though we know the two were very close. Even by Evanuris standards. Like its literally one of thier defining traits. We don't even know what Dirthamen really did in Elvhenan aside from the reasonable assumption that he "collected/kept secrets" for the empire. Presumably either as a spy, researcher or some form of secret police. Or all three. But given his closeness with Falon'Din, I don't think its unreasonable to assume Dirthamen's duties intertwined or assisted Falon'Din's duties. My theory? Dirthamen used his followers as a sort of "memory repository" for the deliberate purpose of either keeping knowledge hidden from others who may find it in the fade or as a means of 'anchoring' knowledge Falon'Din may need at some point for his duties. Making sure the information wasn't unintentionally muddled by fear, deceit and the like (mostly). I say this because of the Lost Temple of Dirthamen in DAI. Granted i'm not sure if it was his main place of worship or just one of them, but I do believe the lingering records of its followers can be indicative on what Dirthamen and his followers hoarded knowledge for. Namely, they don't share knowledge with peers or even the privileged--they kept it secret from everyone. Everyone except themselves, Dirthamen and the shadows. "We few whisper here where shadow dwells. Some words remain unuttered. Truths are pushed down, down Where they shall never arise again." But how was this applicable in ancient times? One hand it could simply be a means of regulating information so information is forgotten by the populace (I believe there is a chamber in the temple named after it?). Simple narrative control and regulation. But I think it could also be applied to what could be found--or not found--in the fade. We know that even back then a concept of a " deep fade" existed, and I am willing to bet money that this meant memory and knowledge of sorts could be found there because it is reflecting thing happening on the physical plane. Memories of magical arts, whispers of past deeds and so on. And that would mean unless it was deliberately hidden or forgotten, this knowledge could potentially be uncovered by anyone who knew how to navigate the fade. So how does one hide something from a place that is literally known to reflect everything in the physical realm that it relies on? Well, you tie it to someone or something that has dominion of the fade's darkest parts and who conveniently has a 'twin soul' that seems to be associated with the darkest parts of the physical realm. "Falon'Din's Reflection" binds knowledge to physical vessels (be it a place or followers) that then gets sent to the darkest fade where "Dirthamen's Shadow" is then able to forget or use the knowledge as he deems fit and vice versa. They are two sides of the same coin that holds influence over the lost and the forgotten.
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Post by yogsothoth on Dec 28, 2019 23:45:27 GMT
I don't think it'll be as simple as "Happy Titan = Blue Lyrium, Angry Titan = Red Lyrium." We know that the Titans shape The Stone, and The Stone has an impurity called "The Gangue" which is specifically called a "corruption" just as the Blight/Taint is. I imagine that the Titans infused Lyrium with the Gangue using their form of magic, turning it into Red Lyrium and weaponizing for use against the Evanuris. Related to the Titans need to reconnect, I think it's possible that the Dwarves' Stone Sense is essentially the Titans calling out to them, or at least some echo of their former connection. I also want to amend what I said about the relationship between Titans and Darkspawn, after thinking about it more. I do agree that there is probably some subconscious link between the two which is why the Darkspawn don't go near the Titans. In trespasser there was that text that said something like "What the Evanuris have created may doom us all." This lead me to suspect that the blight was actually created by the Evanuris, maybe as an attempt to drive the Titans mad or remove their capacity for logical thought. Clearly this backfired on them, leaving them in rather desperate straights. This might have even been the "shield made of void" that Andruil created.
The line is "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all." There's no mention of the Evanuris creating it.
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Post by annia on Dec 31, 2019 13:01:37 GMT
In trespasser there was that text that said something like "What the Evanuris have created may doom us all." This lead me to suspect that the blight was actually created by the Evanuris, maybe as an attempt to drive the Titans mad or remove their capacity for logical thought. Clearly this backfired on them, leaving them in rather desperate straights. This might have even been the "shield made of void" that Andruil created.
The line is "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all." There's no mention of the Evanuris creating it. Hmm, You're right. The actual line isn't nearly as specific, quite vague in fact. It leaves entirely open what culpability the writer assigns to the Evanuris in the situation.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 31, 2019 14:48:25 GMT
In trespasser there was that text that said something like "What the Evanuris have created may doom us all." This lead me to suspect that the blight was actually created by the Evanuris, maybe as an attempt to drive the Titans mad or remove their capacity for logical thought. Clearly this backfired on them, leaving them in rather desperate straights. This might have even been the "shield made of void" that Andruil created.
The line is "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all." There's no mention of the Evanuris creating it. That strikes me as very similar to what Corypheus and his fellow High Priests did. Maybe rather than being the originators of the Darkspawn, the Evanuris were just an earlier iteration of power mad leaders trying to poke around whatever is or was being used to contain the blight (the Golden City/the Void).
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 10, 2020 16:30:29 GMT
The line is "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all." There's no mention of the Evanuris creating it. That strikes me as very similar to what Corypheus and his fellow High Priests did. Maybe rather than being the originators of the Darkspawn, the Evanuris were just an earlier iteration of power mad leaders trying to poke around wherever is or was being used to contain the blight (the Golden City/the Void).
I find it quite likely. I've theorized for a while that the Blight - or possibly Void or whatever may be behind them - may be something primordial and it's possible that it wants to gain access to Thedas by appealing to vanity and greed of powerful people (so I guess little different than hungry demons trying to get on the other side of the Veil by manipulating people and exploiting their weaknesses).
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jan 10, 2020 17:39:56 GMT
That strikes me as very similar to what Corypheus and his fellow High Priests did. Maybe rather than being the originators of the Darkspawn, the Evanuris were just an earlier iteration of power mad leaders trying to poke around wherever is or was being used to contain the blight (the Golden City/the Void).
I find it quite likely. I've theorized for a while that the Blight - or possibly Void or whatever may be behind them - may be something primordial and it's possible that it wants to gain access to Thedas by appealing to vanity and greed of powerful people (so I guess little different than hungry demons trying to get on the other side of the Veil by manipulating people and exploiting their weaknesses). More of a hunch than a theory, but I believe Mythal and Elgarn'nan's origin story is an allegory for the origins of the taint as well. When Elgar'nan threw the Sun down into the Abyss, he likely f***** up the world just as Solas did when he created the Veil. I've mentioned it before in this thread, but the "world was covered in darkness" and "nothing could grow" sounds taint-like to me. Mythal then had to intervene to protect the very fabric of the world. It seems to me that Mythal is essential to keeping the taint at bay. I mean, it is mentioned that Flemeth's magic kept the dark spawn away from her hut in the Kokari Wilds - sort of an off-hand comment by Morrigan, but noteworthy. We also see Corypheus be straight-up obliterated while trying to enter the Temple of Mythal. I think that has everything to do with him being tainted, and nothing to do with him triggering a trap by trespassing.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 10, 2020 18:42:13 GMT
More of a hunch than a theory, but I believe Mythal and Elgarn'nan's origin story is an allegory for the origins of the taint as well. When Elgar'nan threw the Sun down into the Abyss, he likely f***** up the world just as Solas did when he created the Veil. I've mentioned it before in this thread, but the "world was covered in darkness" and "nothing could grow" sounds taint-like to me. This is a valid idea for the meaning of the myth, particularly if you think of the Sun as a Titan. After all it says that the Sun destroyed many things that the Earth mother had created for the pleasure of Elgar'nan and the prayer to him in the Temple of Mythal asks him to "throw down those who destroy our work". In the myth during the fight it says that the blood shed by the Sun created the stars, so its blood was silver, again linking to lyrium, the blood of Titans, which is silver in its raw liquid form. I also wonder if the first elves came about through some interaction between spirits of the Fade and a Titan, or more possibly lyrium, which is why Elgar'nan was called the first born of the Sun and thus why the myth states that he was effectively attacking his own father.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 10, 2020 18:55:08 GMT
More of a hunch than a theory, but I believe Mythal and Elgarn'nan's origin story is an allegory for the origins of the taint as well. When Elgar'nan threw the Sun down into the Abyss, he likely f***** up the world just as Solas did when he created the Veil. I've mentioned it before in this thread, but the "world was covered in darkness" and "nothing could grow" sounds taint-like to me. This is a valid idea for the meaning of the myth, particularly if you think of the Sun as a Titan. After all it says that the Sun destroyed many things that the Earth mother had created for the pleasure of Elgar'nan and the prayer to him in the Temple of Mythal asks him to "throw down those who destroy our work". In the myth during the fight it says that the blood shed by the Sun created the stars, so its blood was silver, again linking to lyrium, the blood of Titans, which is silver in its raw liquid form. I also wonder if the first elves came about through some interaction between spirits of the Fade and a Titan, or more possibly lyrium, which is why Elgar'nan was called the first born of the Sun and thus why the myth states that he was effectively attacking his own father. Hmmm... where does in the lore says that the stars are silver? I don't recall anything like that. Anyway, I think there's some connection between Sun to beings like Titans or Stone/Earth, however I think they're more like of two sides of the same coin. The Sun and the like (so, the First of the People) are like Titans, but from the Fade's side. Though it could be that they were all one and the same at some point, before they became sort of the opposites of one another and Earth/Stone began representing realm of the physical and associated with earth and water and underground, while Fade represents spiritual/world of ideas and is oft associated with fire, air and sky. I do have to wonder if this is what may have been referenced by Valta when she's said on one of the pages of her journal that her race broke in two (because I sure as hell don't buy at all that this is about two remaining cities of Orzammar and Kal-Sharok. That doesn't even make sense.)
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jan 10, 2020 19:07:00 GMT
More of a hunch than a theory, but I believe Mythal and Elgarn'nan's origin story is an allegory for the origins of the taint as well. When Elgar'nan threw the Sun down into the Abyss, he likely f***** up the world just as Solas did when he created the Veil. I've mentioned it before in this thread, but the "world was covered in darkness" and "nothing could grow" sounds taint-like to me. This is a valid idea for the meaning of the myth, particularly if you think of the Sun as a Titan. After all it says that the Sun destroyed many things that the Earth mother had created for the pleasure of Elgar'nan and the prayer to him in the Temple of Mythal asks him to "throw down those who destroy our work". In the myth during the fight it says that the blood shed by the Sun created the stars, so its blood was silver, again linking to lyrium, the blood of Titans, which is silver in its raw liquid form. I also wonder if the first elves came about through some interaction between spirits of the Fade and a Titan, or more possibly lyrium, which is why Elgar'nan was called the first born of the Sun and thus why the myth states that he was effectively attacking his own father. I do believe that was how elves first came to be. Fade (Mind) + Titan (Body) = Sentient beings. Since Lyrium bridges the gap between the Fade and the physical world, I wonder if it's vital in the process of connecting the two to create said beings? Also, Valta's codex entry... the Titans want Valta to "understand" why they are separated from the Dwarves. That's an interesting choice of words. What is there to understand? It makes me believe the circumstances are complicated. Maybe the Titans separated themselves from the Dwarves to save them, much like how Solas created the veil to save his own people?
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 10, 2020 19:24:03 GMT
This is a valid idea for the meaning of the myth, particularly if you think of the Sun as a Titan. After all it says that the Sun destroyed many things that the Earth mother had created for the pleasure of Elgar'nan and the prayer to him in the Temple of Mythal asks him to "throw down those who destroy our work". In the myth during the fight it says that the blood shed by the Sun created the stars, so its blood was silver, again linking to lyrium, the blood of Titans, which is silver in its raw liquid form. I also wonder if the first elves came about through some interaction between spirits of the Fade and a Titan, or more possibly lyrium, which is why Elgar'nan was called the first born of the Sun and thus why the myth states that he was effectively attacking his own father. I do believe that was how elves first came to be. Fade (Mind) + Titan (Body) = Sentient beings. Since Lyrium bridges the gap between the Fade and the physical world, I wonder if it's vital in the process of connecting the two to create said beings? But there are sentient beings existing in the Fade. I think what may have came out of that union were sentient beings with physical body.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 11, 2020 14:00:52 GMT
I must admit I always imagined that referred to the dwarves we encounter in the Descent, who are still linked in some way to the Titan, and the rest of the race with which we are familiar. Although it would seem the Descent dwarves were not considered dwarves by the Titan as it needed Valta to calm it so that would seem to contradict my assumption. But there are sentient beings existing in the Fade. I think what may have came out of that union were sentient beings with physical body. Whilst some things from DAO may not have been persisted with, I do wonder if there is some clue as to the origins of the original "First of the People" in the existence of the Lady of the Forest. She was meant to have been called forth from the land, not the Fade, so at one time it is possible there were many similar spirits that had a much stronger connection to the physical world than the spiritual and eventually took on a tangible physical form. However, if they wished to return to the Fade they had to abandon this form (as the Forbidden Ones are accused of doing).
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 11, 2020 14:06:27 GMT
Hmmm... where does in the lore says that the stars are silver? I don't recall anything like that. "Eventually Elgar'nan threw the sun down from the sky and buried him in a deep abyss created by the land's sorrow. With the sun gone, the world was covered in shadow, and all that remained in the sky were the reminders of Elgar'nan's battle with his father—drops of the sun's lifeblood, which twinkled and shimmered in the darkness." Okay so it doesn't actually say they were coloured silver but when you look up at the sky at night how do the stars appeared to you?
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 11, 2020 15:29:10 GMT
Hmmm... where does in the lore says that the stars are silver? I don't recall anything like that. "Eventually Elgar'nan threw the sun down from the sky and buried him in a deep abyss created by the land's sorrow. With the sun gone, the world was covered in shadow, and all that remained in the sky were the reminders of Elgar'nan's battle with his father—drops of the sun's lifeblood, which twinkled and shimmered in the darkness." Okay so it doesn't actually say they were coloured silver but when you look up at the sky at night how do the stars appeared to you? There's nothing I can see that even suggests any reference to silver I mean, for me this is either a bit of flair added to the myth or something that isn't supposed to be taken literally - like, there *are* remnants of the battle in the Fade/Void that may be likened to stars and future generations have confused it for actual stars. I mean... I'm not sure we can go as far as to believe that Elgar'nan has fought the sun - like: the celestial body? I *could* see things go in that direction, but somehow I have my doubts that the physical sun and Sun mentioned in myths are exactly one and the same. Although, one could argue that the myth suggests that ancient elves had enough of an astronomical knowledge to know that sun and stars are basically the same thing.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 11, 2020 16:55:42 GMT
I must admit I always imagined that referred to the dwarves we encounter in the Descent, who are still linked in some way to the Titan, and the rest of the race with which we are familiar. Although it would seem the Descent dwarves were not considered dwarves by the Titan as it needed Valta to calm it so that would seem to contradict my assumption. Valta decisively says that the Titan doesn't really care about Sha-Brytol. They appear to be twisted descendants of modern dwarves who have found the Titan at some point (I assume they are either descendants of thaig featured in this legend or of those who ventured from Heidrun thaig and calmed the Titan the first time it happened) and formed a cult around it, but never really understood the Titan or were accepted by it in return. So it can't be them. I mean, never mind that I always understood Valta mentioning something that has happened a long time ago - way farther into past than first expedition from Heidrun thaig and probably even way before the existence of Primeval Thaig. I think Lady Of The Forest may have been a very powerful spirit like Nightmare or maybe Hakkon (which... we still don't know what it was, only that it returned to the Fade). I mean, there appear to be A LOT of pretty powerful, yet half-forgotten beings in Thedas - problem we have now is that we don't yet know all there is about Thedas and its past and what has caused some beings to have power to manifest in this world (like Cole and... Lady of the Forest?) while some appear to be stuck in the Fade and seek entrance through elaborate schemes (Nightmare), while some others appear to have incarnated as dragons (Hakkon) and apparently go through process of rebirthing (venturing to Fade and back). However, I think we have to keep in mind that - as much as Fade and land seem separate - there's still an undercurrent of an effort to portray them as two parts of a bigger whole. Sentience appears to originate in the Fade, as a place of all things spiritual, but at the same time we hear Cole saying that without living, physical beings and their active input of ideas and emotions there would be nothing in the Fade. Btw. I think the myths featuring or mentioning Sun and Earth are driving at that. I think ultimately they may be a distant echo of how this world works - that life is something that can exist if both realms work/exist together in relative harmony. But something has happened that's upset the sense of balance between the two (or they may be in some sort of esoteric 'creative conflict', so to speak) and ultimately a lot of problems in current world stem from either trying to separate the two, or one to try and dominate another (like Evanuris dominated the Earth??).
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 13, 2020 19:06:47 GMT
There's nothing I can see that even suggests any reference to silver Twinkling and shimmering suggest something silver to me. I mean, for me this is either a bit of flair added to the myth or something that isn't supposed to be taken literally - like, there *are* remnants of the battle in the Fade/Void that may be likened to stars and future generations have confused it for actual stars. I mean... I'm not sure we can go as far as to believe that Elgar'nan has fought the sun - like: the celestial body That's my whole point. The myth suggests that Elgar'nan did battle the actual sun which doesn't really make much sense but if it was actually a Titan and the "sun" is in some way symbolic of it, then the whole "life blood" thing does seem to suggest lyrium. Remember the Fade is equated with the sky and lyrium is the one thing found both there and in the material world, so it is possible that the lyrium in the Fade was scattered there during the battle. Then for some reason the myth replaces Titan with the Sun. Probably when the later elves were trying to revive their folklore and some memories and stories got muddled. May be one of them even discovered an old mural depicting the battle with, for example, Elgar'nan holding aloft an orb of power which the elf mistook as a depiction of the sun. I must admit I'm still puzzled why when the Fade was merging with the earth in Hushed Whispers that it was the normal sky which disappeared first. Likewise the "hole in the sky" is a literal gap in the normal sky, suggesting that cosmology in the Thedas universe is not the same as our own.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 13, 2020 19:26:55 GMT
while some others appear to have incarnated as dragons (Hakkon) and apparently go through process of rebirthing (venturing to Fade and back). Hakkon was explained easily enough. The original spirit was called into the dragon by the Hakkonites of the Divine Age. Whether the spirit requested a dragon form or the Avvar chose it as an extremely powerful avatar for their god, we were told that essentially the spirit was trapped in that form until we could "liberate" it to return to the Fade. It was whilst playing Jaws of Hakkon that I recalled the Lady of the Forest. Both the Avvar belief system and the origins of the Lady show that spirits are a lot more complex that we were previously led to believe by the Chantry dogma. Sentience appears to originate in the Fade, as a place of all things spiritual, but at the same time we hear Cole saying that without living, physical beings and their active input of ideas and emotions there would be nothing in the Fade. Sort of a "chicken and egg" situation here. Whilst what Andraste taught may not be entirely correct, nevertheless she allegedly was told that the Fade came first and then the material world. There were spirits there but they didn't have motivation to do anything until they had the physical world to study and draw upon. So I think that is what Cole was talking about. Then again, at one time there was no barrier between the two and the memories in the Vir Dirthara show spirits interacting as teachers of the elves, not simply reacting to their emotions and ideas. This is why I feel that raising the Veil not only destroyed elven civilisation but also fundamentally changed the nature of the spirits that were now shut away in the Fade; no longer able to interact directly, they could only react to emotions they sensed. Meanwhile, there were spirits like the Lady of the Forest that were trapped the other side of the Veil through their close connection with the land.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 14, 2020 2:05:35 GMT
There's nothing I can see that even suggests any reference to silver Twinkling and shimmering suggest something silver to me. I don't think I've heard of stars likened to silver very often, specifically because silver doesn't shimmer or twinkle. Jewels and crystals do, which is why stars are not uncommonly likened to them, while the moon is way more often thought of as silver - thanks to its subtle, steady glow. But the 'stars' - the small remnants of the sun - may as well be entirely symbolic, or given that the Sun appears to be a being of the Fade, they may be completely incorporeal (unlike lyrium, which appears to be a concentrated Fade in physical form). And in that regard I have a perfect contender for such remnants - spirits. Or souls. It's not uncommon to link stars with spirits or souls. In fact, it's a concept common enough to have TV Tropes page and is at least as old as ancient Greece - in fact, the TV Tropes page helpfully mentions Plato's Cosmology, in which it's asserted that every soul has a companion star and that souls return to that star after death. Reminds you of something? I'd say that, given how oftentimes the idea of the Fade and how this world is built reminds me of Plato's writings that it's plausible that this is where it may be going, on symbolic front at least. Keep in mind that the future we see in Redcliffe is very specific and the fact that it looks the way it does because something very wrong happened to it, which was a Blighted madman just punched a hole through it and made it shatter in ways probably he may not fully understand. Also, the Veil is shattered, but at the same time it appears that the remains of it cling to the ground, because otherwise how would rifts be possible? How much the world suffering makes the sky look how it does is a question too. But that's not what I want to focus on, but this: On one hand - we already know that that universe is not the same as our own, because we don't have anything resembling the Fade or any evidence of the existence of magic or of other dimensions (that are somehow connected with our world). On the other - that doesn't yet make the Fade something that is present all throughout that universe. After all, our own sky and air is only 480 km thick (and we find most of it within 16 km) and after that there's just the uninhabitable void of space. And we don't know whether the Fade doesn't do the same - but the fact that it is so often likened to air and sky suggests that it might. Also - Cole's comment on Hissing Wasters on stars (about their light being far away and some of them being gone) suggests them not being that different from ours. On the OTHER other hand - the Fade is a magical construct, so it may as well be a local phenomenon, but at the same time be infinite within itself. The fact that distant stars are nothing more special for the rest universe also doesn't necessarily make them less special for that planet and its inhabitants - I mean, never mind that people used basic astronomy to survive and travel and so on, but the existence of the Fade (which is a force that is reactive to emotions and power) can imbue special meaning into something, even if it has little to no meaning just 20 km above Thedas. Hmmmmm.... now I have to wonder if perhaps the Titans are something that 'anchor' the Fade to that planet, that would otherwise be barren?
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