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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 2, 2021 19:33:21 GMT
Why would Razikale manipulate people to breach the gates of Minrathous, a city that is the center of her cult in Tevinter? Something odd was going on with the Old God worship even before First Blight. You will recall the memory of Corypheus' slave where he says that his master was troubled by a decline in the faithful. Previously, we had been told the Old God worship only declined as a consequence of the First Blight, Dumat rising to attack Tevinter and the other gods falling silent/failing to help. Even so, Old God worship was meant to still have been strong enough among the Altus that Hessarian had to purge them with blood in order to establish his religion of Maker worship, although historians do wonder if this was just an excuse to be rid of his political rivals. Nevertheless, something doesn't add up in what we were told in those memories. Also, assuming the Canticle of Silence did have some element of truth to it, Dumat did seem to have been the main instigator of the venture to the Golden City. Then the high priests of the other gods went along with it because they didn't want to miss out on whatever glory and power might be gained. So it is entirely possible that Razikale (if an alter ego of Mythal) did not approve of what they did but certainly not the consequence, which was to unleash the Blight on the world. One thing we know about Flemeth is that she opposed the Blight and in trying to capture the Old God soul, claimed to be undertaking a rescue mission. Even if ultimately her aim was to acquire its power, she certainly did not want it to be lost to the Void. So if Mythal has been spending the millennia restoring her power, she would also want to ensure that the world was worth returning to. If the priesthood of Razikale had become corrupt, why wouldn't Mythal turn on them and seek to replace them? Minrathous is no ordinary city. It has never fallen to an enemy force and this seems due to the magic with which it was built. It's situation, on an island linked to the mainland by a single bridge/causeway makes it seem very like the Temple of Mythal. Mythal has a strong association with water; she was said to have been born from the sea of the earth's tears. Her priesthood passed on their memories through a well. Lake Calenhad was said to have been associated with Razikale by the mages of Tevinter. Kinloch Hold had long been known as a place where the Veil was thin and strong magic could be performed. It is entirely possible that first the Avvar and then the Vints established a structure over another one of Mythal's temples. Of course, all these bits of lore could be just coincidence and the writers have just been making stuff up as they go along without seeing how it appears to go together. Or they could have been feeding us deliberate red herrings. If not, then there are a lot of similarities between Mythal/Lady of the Skies/Razikale. Also, let us not forget that Mythal is strongly associated with dragons and Flemeth and her daughter Yavanna went to great lengths to preserve them when they started to be persecuted instead of worshiped. Is it mere coincidence that the Old Gods took dragon form? Finally, it should be remembered that Razikale has not yet arisen so if the Old God dragons are not corrupted until the darkspawn/their high priest breaks through, it is possible that she could be our ally in the future. Perhaps we just have to get to her first.
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Post by azarhal on Nov 2, 2021 21:34:34 GMT
Why would Razikale manipulate people to breach the gates of Minrathous, a city that is the center of her cult in Tevinter? Something odd was going on with the Old God worship even before First Blight. You will recall the memory of Corypheus' slave where he says that his master was troubled by a decline in the faithful. Previously, we had been told the Old God worship only declined as a consequence of the First Blight, Dumat rising to attack Tevinter and the other gods falling silent/failing to help. Even so, Old God worship was meant to still have been strong enough among the Altus that Hessarian had to purge them with blood in order to establish his religion of Maker worship, although historians do wonder if this was just an excuse to be rid of his political rivals. Nevertheless, something doesn't add up in what we were told in those memories. Also, assuming the Canticle of Silence did have some element of truth to it, Dumat did seem to have been the main instigator of the venture to the Golden City. Then the high priests of the other gods went along with it because they didn't want to miss out on whatever glory and power might be gained. So it is entirely possible that Razikale (if an alter ego of Mythal) did not approve of what they did but certainly not the consequence, which was to unleash the Blight on the world. One thing we know about Flemeth is that she opposed the Blight and in trying to capture the Old God soul, claimed to be undertaking a rescue mission. Even if ultimately her aim was to acquire its power, she certainly did not want it to be lost to the Void. So if Mythal has been spending the millennia restoring her power, she would also want to ensure that the world was worth returning to. If the priesthood of Razikale had become corrupt, why wouldn't Mythal turn on them and seek to replace them? Minrathous is no ordinary city. It has never fallen to an enemy force and this seems due to the magic with which it was built. It's situation, on an island linked to the mainland by a single bridge/causeway makes it seem very like the Temple of Mythal. Mythal has a strong association with water; she was said to have been born from the sea of the earth's tears. Her priesthood passed on their memories through a well. Lake Calenhad was said to have been associated with Razikale by the mages of Tevinter. Kinloch Hold had long been known as a place where the Veil was thin and strong magic could be performed. It is entirely possible that first the Avvar and then the Vints established a structure over another one of Mythal's temples. I actually think that DAI hints at the Old Gods being silent long before the Magisters breached the Fade. The Chantry blaming the Old Gods whispering is a given thought, it's all part of the anti-Tevinter propaganda. I always found that interesting, but I don't see a link with Andraste's behavior toward Minrathous hundred of years later. In fact, Andraste's behavior toward Minrathous is just plain strange in general. She wanted to be there and she got there, just not with an army. Maybe she actually had the same vision as Drakon did. That might explain a few tings. If not, then there are a lot of similarities between Mythal/Lady of the Skies/Razikale. I personally don't see any association between Mythal and Razikale/Lady in the Skies. The later are all about sacrifice, tears, mysteries and Visus (the Augur of Razikale has the symbol on her/his robe in the Invasion mosaic). While Mythal is associated to motherhood, justice/vengeance and dragons. The Razikale = Mythal really doesn't fit to me. I even read some stuff today (post-DAI stuff) that Razikale is associated with owls now too, which fit well with the Lady of the Skies (who is depicted as an owl). Which might meant that Tenebrium being associated to Lusacan is wrong and that's Razikale... Or Lusacan and Razikale as the same thing going as Falon'Din and Andruil: mixed symbolism (both being linked to owls and spears for the Elven ones...and more owls for Lusacan and Razikale). Also, let us not forget that Mythal is strongly associated with dragons and Flemeth and her daughter Yavanna went to great lengths to preserve them when they started to be persecuted instead of worshiped. Is it mere coincidence that the Old Gods took dragon form? Finally, it should be remembered that Razikale has not yet arisen so if the Old God dragons are not corrupted until the darkspawn/their high priest breaks through, it is possible that she could be our ally in the future. Perhaps we just have to get to her first. They started to call the dragons to protected them after the 4th Blight in the Exalted age. That was long after people stopped worshipping dragons. And there is something super suspicious about that story because the Pentaghasts had way more reasons to start killing all the dragons after the 3rd Blight than the 4th one.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 3, 2021 9:06:54 GMT
They started to call the dragons to protected them after the 4th Blight in the Exalted age. Not sure where you got this information from. Certainly World of Thedas says that the Pentaghast's hunted dragons nearly to extinction by the beginning of the Steel Age but that would be dragons generally, whereas Flemeth and Yavanna seemed focused on protecting the Great Dragons and we didn't even know that this sort of dragon existed until the comic series. Whilst the text mentions the point at which they nearly hunted dragons to extinction, the Pentaghasts had been a leading dynastic family since the Glory Age and it is likely their pre-occupation with dragons began then. Dragons are highly symbolic being associated not only with the Old Gods but Tevinter generally, so killing them off would be making a political statement as well as earning the gratitude of the masses for making the countryside safer. In the comic The Silent Grove, Yavanna says people started to protect the dragons after the fall of the Tevinter Imperium, by which I assume she means when Andraste's Exalted March drove them out of the southern states because, technically, whilst the Imperium is a lot smaller than it was at the height of its power, it has never actually fallen. The Guardian of the Ashes said he was bound to his task until the Imperium fell and that is why he was still there because it hadn't. Presumably, the dragons they sought to protect were the Great Dragons. Who those people were is not stated but it is entirely possible they were vestiges of the Old God priesthood and were encouraged to do so through their dreams. As I say above, with dragons being associated with the Old Gods, it is hardly surprising that they started to be persecuted instead of venerated. I dare say even Hessarian thought killing dragons made an effective symbolic statement to further his political aims. So I've always assumed that the Great Dragons were encouraged to go into magical sleep (uthenera?) even before the establishment of the Chantry in the south. I actually think that DAI hints at the Old Gods being silent long before the Magisters breached the Fade. The Chantry blaming the Old Gods whispering is a given thought, it's all part of the anti-Tevinter propaganda. I would agree with this. That is what I took from both the memories in the Fade and the quest of the priesthood of Razikale in Jaws of Hakon. However, whether the Old Gods fell silent immediately before or after the start of the First Blight, the question remains, why? Did they fall silent in order to encourage the venture to the Golden City? Yet, Corypheus did still seem to be in contact with someone in the Fade who encouraged him. Was that Dumat or someone impersonating Dumat? If they only fell silent after the assault on the Golden City, why did they? Was reaching the Golden City always the collective aim of the Old Gods and they had nurtured the powers of the Tevinter mages until they were in a position to accomplish this? I find this unlikely as they Old Gods had not always worked together and there did seem an element of rivalry between the various priesthoods. Yet, if it was only Dumat who was behind the assault, why did the other gods fail to intervene when Dumat rose and attacked the Imperium? This is why I wonder if the Old Gods knew that breaking the seal on their prison could only be accomplished from the Golden City but hadn't factored in that doing so would also unleash the Blight, which corrupted them immediately, sending them insane so they no longer communicated with the faithful. So it isn't the darkspawn breaking through that does this; that simply breaks their slumber and opens a way to the surface. Once again, though, there has been a lot of contradictory information given to us about this. Whilst the excuse can be given we were simply reading Chantry propaganda, at some point this stops being adequate to explain the anomalies. Someone, somewhere knows the truth. Solas certainly does, although he chose not to impart what he knew. Very frustrating if it turns out the reason for his insistence on proceeding with his plan is to save the world from the Blight. In fact, Andraste's behavior toward Minrathous is just plain strange in general. She wanted to be there and she got there, just not with an army. This is something I've wondered about. Did Andraste know she would be betrayed but allowed it to happen. In DAO her mother's shade claims to have had a premonition of her daughter's fate. There is a quote from Andraste 7 that says: Let the blade pass through the flesh, Let my blood touch the ground, Let my cries touch their hearts. Let mine be the last sacrifice. This is written as though Andraste said these words as a prayer and it was her intent that her death would achieve her aim of freeing the people of the Old God worship, which of course it did. So was this just subsequent followers attributing this to her or did she believe her death had a purpose? In the Canticle of Shartan, they agree to advanced together to Minrathous, tear down the unassailable gates and set all slaves free. Whilst neither achieved this by force of arms, both of them did breach the gates; Andraste as a prisoner and Shartan with a hundred of his followers who attempted to free her in front of the gathered multitude. Shartan must have known it would never succeed but may be freeing Andraste wasn't the point of it. A group of slaves defying the Imperium and willing to sacrifice their lives for the sake of the Champion of Freedom, would have had a profound impact on those watching, but particularly the slaves. We are told that around this time slave revolts erupted across the Imperium, all allegedly led by Shartan. No doubt, he was the inspiration and became their rallying cry. Which is why in the end Hessarian was forced to concede and permit the slaves to go free. Of course, it didn't last and slavery continued to this day in the Imperium but at the time Maferath's deal with Hessarian freed the south as a whole, whilst Andraste and Shartan's sacrifice freed many slaves, most of whom in those days were elves. So in a symbolic way they did breach the gates of Minrathous and set the slaves free. I personally don't see any association between Mythal and Razikale/Lady in the Skies. The later are all about sacrifice, tears, mysteries and Visus (the Augur of Razikale has the symbol on her/his robe in the Invasion mosaic). While Mythal is associated to motherhood, justice/vengeance and dragons. I feel more of an association between Mythal and the Lady of the Skies than I do Razikale. However, it is odd that the priesthood of Razikale should have sought answers so far south beyond the official bounds of the Imperium. Why did they think they would have more success there than anywhere else in the Imperium? That does suggest a tentative association between Razikale and one of the Avvar gods. If you disregard gender, then she could be associated with Sigfrost, the Great Bear, who is guardian of wisdom. The bear is also the sacred animal of Dirthamen, god of secrets and knowledge, which would be another way of saying mysteries. The Lady of the Skies is also said to have been responsible for lifting up the realm of the gods out of the reach of mortals, which sounds like another way of saying she raised the Veil between the Fade and the Waking World, but Solas claims that was him. So why did the Avvar attribute it to the Lady? It would also seem they had a residual racial memory of a time before this occurred. You are also right in saying that the Lady of the Skies has an association with the afterlife, that would point to a link with Falon'Din. It is also curious that the Jaws of Hakkon spoke the original members conversing with Hakkon himself, who opened their eyes that they might see the elfstones (shards). When we find the cave beneath the fortress, there is a codex there from Gelduran, a Forgotten One. So did he provide the guidance in the name of Hakkon? This is why I say there are a lot of hints in the lore of links between the various pantheons but a lot of contradictions too. I hope that eventually we will get some sort of revelation about what is the truth as the excuse of the unreliable narrator/differing memories is beginning to wear a bit thin with me, particularly where something so reality changing as the Veil occurred. If, as now seems likely, both humans and dwarves were around to witness this as well as the elves, why does no one remember it? (Well the Avvar do but only as a legend of the gods). I wonder if the Veil had the effect of inflicting collective amnesia on the inhabitants of the Waking World, except the elves remember some things very accurately from before that time, whilst completely forgetting other details, so it would seem that rather than a single event, somebody has been altering the memories of the races, presumably to suit their agenda. The question is, who?
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Post by azarhal on Nov 3, 2021 13:50:22 GMT
They started to call the dragons to protected them after the 4th Blight in the Exalted age. Not sure where you got this information from. Certainly World of Thedas says that the Pentaghast's hunted dragons nearly to extinction by the beginning of the Steel Age but that would be dragons generally, whereas Flemeth and Yavanna seemed focused on protecting the Great Dragons and we didn't even know that this sort of dragon existed until the comic series. Whilst the text mentions the point at which they nearly hunted dragons to extinction, the Pentaghasts had been a leading dynastic family since the Glory Age and it is likely their pre-occupation with dragons began then. Dragons are highly symbolic being associated not only with the Old Gods but Tevinter generally, so killing them off would be making a political statement as well as earning the gratitude of the masses for making the countryside safer. I remember reading something about the dragon extinction being the result of people hating on dragons more post-4th Blight. I'll have to do some digging to find the exact entry for it thought. But the spell used to put them in stasis used King Calenhad's blood, he was born in the Exalted Age (5:10). Stories about Yavana in-lore are all post-Exalted age too. Like I said, the whole thing is super suspicious. It's quite possible there wasn't more dragons being killed than normal during that time and the extinction was fake. It's just caused by Yavana calling/hiding them, not by mass slaughter. Flemeth just wanted her "Dragon age". That and the timeframe of the dragon extinction and their return fit nicely into the gap between the 4th and 5th Blight, give or take a few years. I actually think that DAI hints at the Old Gods being silent long before the Magisters breached the Fade. The Chantry blaming the Old Gods whispering is a given thought, it's all part of the anti-Tevinter propaganda. I would agree with this. That is what I took from both the memories in the Fade and the quest of the priesthood of Razikale in Jaws of Hakon. However, whether the Old Gods fell silent immediately before or after the start of the First Blight, the question remains, why? Did they fall silent in order to encourage the venture to the Golden City? Yet, Corypheus did still seem to be in contact with someone in the Fade who encouraged him. Was that Dumat or someone impersonating Dumat? If they only fell silent after the assault on the Golden City, why did they? Was reaching the Golden City always the collective aim of the Old Gods and they had nurtured the powers of the Tevinter mages until they were in a position to accomplish this? I find this unlikely as they Old Gods had not always worked together and there did seem an element of rivalry between the various priesthoods. Yet, if it was only Dumat who was behind the assault, why did the other gods fail to intervene when Dumat rose and attacked the Imperium? This is why I wonder if the Old Gods knew that breaking the seal on their prison could only be accomplished from the Golden City but hadn't factored in that doing so would also unleash the Blight, which corrupted them immediately, sending them insane so they no longer communicated with the faithful. So it isn't the darkspawn breaking through that does this; that simply breaks their slumber and opens a way to the surface. Once again, though, there has been a lot of contradictory information given to us about this. Whilst the excuse can be given we were simply reading Chantry propaganda, at some point this stops being adequate to explain the anomalies. Someone, somewhere knows the truth. Solas certainly does, although he chose not to impart what he knew. Very frustrating if it turns out the reason for his insistence on proceeding with his plan is to save the world from the Blight. It's not even clear if Corypheus could tell if the voice(s) he heard in his dreams was from Dumat. Someone did send Corypheus the "idea" to break the Golden City, maybe just like someone lead him to a Foci pre-DAI. It wasn't necessarily the same someone. There was rivalry between the priesthoods and I think it run way deeper than just " my god is better than yours". Pre-Imperium unification each regions had their own Old God patron(s) and the "queen/king" of that region was a high priest(ess) for that Old God. Tevinter was Razikale. The Neronemians followed Dumat, Lusacan and Zazikel with Dumat in lead. There is no info on Toth/Andoral that I can find, but they probably had their own kingdom(s) pre-unification too. There is also Threnodies 6 that mention a Planescene King who switched to worship a female Old God (so Razikale) to fight off a Neromenian king (who followed Dumat). So Razikale worship moved south before the Imperium via converting leaders. While the other cults seems to have only force spread via the Empire invading areas. In any cases, Razikale's worship spread all over even before the Imperium was created. We also have another case of a dragon talking/whispering to his followers and then going silent: Hakkon. Jaws of Hakkon has some very interesting codex entries ( some insane conspiracy too). There is one that talks about the shards and mention that when Hakkon was around and could be heard (i.e. before being put in stasis), his followers could see them without using an ocularum. That's quite the power-up just by having your spirit-god around. And there are similarities between dragon-Hakkon and the old gods: - Hakkon was power-hungry/angry once inside the dragon body, it seems he's not that bad when not put into a dragon body - Hakkon was silent while under the stasis spell (in his prison), just like the old gods in their prison - Hakkon speak and whispers to his followers and grant them powers (like the old gods did) Maybe the old gods were not originally dragons. Like the Avvar, maybe the Neronemians put spirits into animals bodies and worshipped those, but when they started to believe the greatest kings/heroes were reincarnated into dragons, they started to put spirits into dragon bodies and that lead to the creation of the Old Gods. Then those dragons were put into stasis like Hakkon was because they were near mad and people knew where their prison was. Once in stasis, they became silent. Once silent, the Old Gods worship dwindled. It's possible putting them in stasis took years instead of being an instant spell to considering what we know of their prison causing numbness (mentioned in WoT v2). That would mean communication became slower until silence was reached. And at this point, we have a gap in knowledge to lead to the 1st Blight. Why a gap in knowledge? Because the 1st Blight had a darkspawns horde already when darkspawns are born and that didn't happen in 5 minutes despite the Chantry claims (I'm exagerating, but the Chantry claims Magisters 1st Darkspawn, but you need broodmothers for the horde that came with the 1st Blight). Darkspawns were already underground and something happened when the Magister breached the Golden City that caused that horde to organise and hunt down Dumat. Maybe what the Magister Siderals tried to accomplish was freeing the Old Gods from their stasis so people could see they existed and came back to worship them. They were told they would find the power to do so in the Golden City...and they did and they are freeing the old gods. It's just all twisted. It's possible that Razikale and/or Lusacan aren't in their prison anymore too. Especially Razikale, who had worshippers all over, making it way easier to access her prison and free her in other ways. Edit: I had to check sources because it's been a while, but I can confirm that Hakkon was trapped used by magic found in the Temple of Razikale. So those Razikale followers were studying stasis/temporal magic...which might have been what was used to trap the Old Gods (note that the circle in Minrathous was a Razikale temple and is enchanted against the ravage of time too...as does Kinloch Hold). I'm starting to wonder if Razikale's worship didn't start in the South (as a fork of the Lady of the Skies cult) and moved North to create Tevinter/Minrathous now.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 3, 2021 19:23:32 GMT
Because the 1st Blight had a darkspawns horde already when darkspawns are born and that didn't happen in 5 minutes despite the Chantry claims (I'm exagerating, but the Chantry claims Magisters 1st Darkspawn, but you need broodmothers for the horde that came with the 1st Blight). Darkspawns were already underground and something happened when the Magister breached the Golden City that caused that horde to organise and hunt down Dumat. The Chantry version has always been questioned by the dwarves, who after all were the first to experience the effects of the Blight. Apparently the Grey Wardens also questioned the Chantry version of the Magisters being the first darkspawn because the Blight followed on too closely after Corypheus' expedition, so it is a distinct possibility that the darkspawn horde were already down there somewhere sealed in and the Magisters merely broke the seal (because what they did to the gates of the city was mirrored down below). If, the Golden City was the home of the Evanuris and the capital city of the empire, maybe the Veil split it in two, leaving one half in the Fade and the other in the Deep Roads. There is also a curious line in Maryden's song "Mercy for the Elves". She sang "Arlathan fell deep beneath the ocean floor". Now that was the first time I had ever heard it suggested that Arlathan sank beneath the sea. The city in the forest was allegedly sunk beneath the earth but that may well have not been the real Arlathan but merely an outlying suburb or simply the section dedicated to Andruil (as, according to Tevinter Nights, Arlathan Forest was her domain). I have wondered if the Nocen Sea was created when Arlathan sank because it is an odd shape and even if you slot Seheron into the north, that still leaves a large area of ocean with nothing to account for it. Anyway, considering Mythal (and other elven gods) seem to have had a great deal to do with the Deep Roads in ancient times, Ghilan'nain was conducting experiments that produced monsters and Andruil went hunting in the Void (which could have been the term for the ultra deep Deep Roads) and returned with plague, it isn't too much of a stretch to think that one of them was responsible for the Blight but initially the Veil successfully locked it away. I had to check sources because it's been a while, but I can confirm that Hakkon was trapped used by magic found in the Temple of Razikale. By this I assume you mean trapped in the body of the dragon, although I thought the Avvar knew how to accomplish this without outside assistance. It was Ameridan who trapped him so he could no longer speak to his faithful. The Hakkonites only speculated that he accomplished this through the magic in the old Tevinter fortress, although I suppose this is a possibility. We never get to ask him how he achieved the feat. It does seem extraordinary that a Dalish mage should have had that level of skill and the only other examples we have seen of the time stasis spell was in the Western Approach as used by Tevinter mages, so maybe the Hakkonites were right. Ameridan did have a familiar spirit; it is mentioned in his memories, so was it this spirit that guided him or other spirits that inhabited the ruins? I'm starting to wonder if Razikale's worship didn't start in the South (as a fork of the Lady of the Skies cult) and moved North to create Tevinter/Minrathous now. Black Magic Ritual's speculations included this idea. We have questioned why the priesthood of Razikale would have sought answers in the south if there was no prior connection. Of course, we do not know the precise origins of the Alamarri, from whom the Avvar were an offshoot. Were they an offshoot of the Neromenians or did they have a different origin entirely? We know they started off west of the Frostback Mountains and then crossed it to escape the Shadow Goddess (confirmed by Solas). Could they have come from further west still? Maybe they are related to the Voshai. As you say, originally there was a goddess that assisted the Planescene against the Neromenians. There is also that legend we find in Mark of the Assassin about the Lady of the Skies saving a clan from north of the Waking Sea from the encroaching Imperial forces. Anyway, as I've already speculated, if the Lady and Razikale are connected in some way, then it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that she didn't approve of the later actions of the Imperium and wished to free her city, Minrathous, which was originally an independent kingdom until Darinius united the three kingdoms under his rule. If nothing else, considering the goddess who helped the Planescene did so on the condition that they rejected worship of the Maker, if this was Razikale then she can't have been best pleased when Hessarian made Maker worship the official religion of the Imperium. Why did she go silent on her priesthood in ancient times though?
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Post by azarhal on Nov 3, 2021 20:06:49 GMT
I had to check sources because it's been a while, but I can confirm that Hakkon was trapped used by magic found in the Temple of Razikale. By this I assume you mean trapped in the body of the dragon, although I thought the Avvar knew how to accomplish this without outside assistance. It was Ameridan who trapped him so he could no longer speak to his faithful. The Hakkonites only speculated that he accomplished this through the magic in the old Tevinter fortress, although I suppose this is a possibility. We never get to ask him how he achieved the feat. It does seem extraordinary that a Dalish mage should have had that level of skill and the only other examples we have seen of the time stasis spell was in the Western Approach as used by Tevinter mages, so maybe the Hakkonites were right. Ameridan did have a familiar spirit; it is mentioned in his memories, so was it this spirit that guided him or other spirits that inhabited the ruins? I meant Hakkon the dragon trapped in the stasis spells by Ameridan. The Western Approach Still Ruins time stasis spells was executed via the staff of an Avvar Augur (why was it there???). There is also a cave with an altar dedicated to Razikale in the Western Approach. I loaded up DAI last night despite not playing for months and my character was on that map and discovered that place not long after. A weird coincidence, I wasn't looking for it . Alexius started his study of time magic in Minrathous Circle of Magi too (Razikale's former temple which is impervious to the ravage of time) There is a lots of events/lore that link Razikale to time/stasis magic in some way. Why did she go silent on her priesthood in ancient times though? Same as the others: she was imprisoned because she was corrupted/crazy? She might still be. Or she never really was looking for worshipers, everything were alliance of conveniences for some other goals. There is a chance she was the shadow goddess who made the Avvar cross over to Ferelden and the Lady of the Skies who talked to Trydda to make her clan cross over. Saying that, it's not like trapping/binding dragon didn't happen at other times. We can free one that was bound to the throne inside Orzammar castle in DAO. Actually, if killing dragons is bad for the world (as Yavana's claims) then maybe it was quite common in the past to freeze/bind them to something instead of killing them. People forgot it was bad and stopped doing it this way. God catch about the Wyvern Clan and the Chanty stories...and more Razikale = Lady of the Skies.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 4, 2021 8:49:29 GMT
There is a chance she was the shadow goddess who made the Avvar cross over to Ferelden Well if you take Solas at his word (and at this stage I take nothing he said as the complete truth), the Shadow Goddess was just a misunderstood, lonely spirit. The Alamarri/Avvar were familiar enough with spirits that they wouldn't be spooked that easily, so there was more to them fleeing the Shadow Goddess than Solas either knows or lets on. The human scholars believe they were escaping a natural disaster and it is possible that it was a combination of the two. In order words the Shadow Goddess caused some natural disaster, such as plague or famine or climate change, and this was why they said they were fleeing the spirit rather than the adverse event itself. Since their legends indicate they were around to see the effects of the Veil, could it be they fled the Shadow Goddess when the Veil initially cut them off from their patron spirits? Could the Shadow Goddess have been a spirit of the land, like the Lady of the Forest, so she was unaffected by the Veil? I am just curious as to where the Alamarri originated. Presumably when they crossed the Frostbacks it was from what is now known as the Dales. This means they could have migrated down from the north and had their origins in the Neromenians but equally they could have come from further west. Whilst the Neromenians may have been the first human group to have arrived on mainland Thedas, that doesn't mean they were necessarily the only humans to have done so and others could have arrived from a totally different starting point in subsequent centuries. This is why I wonder if the Alamarri were an offshoot of the Voshai. They would seem to be versed in magic as later trade was almost exclusively done to acquire lyrium. They were clearly seafarers, like the Neromenians, so they could have arrived totally independently of the latter on the western seaboard of the continent and then gradually made their way eastwards. It might also explain the origin of other tribes, such as the Planasene, the Ciriane and the Ingrish, all of whom seem to have been in constant conflict with the Neromenians and had different gods and traditions from them, bearing in mind that initially the Neromenians seem to have been favoured by Dumat, together with Toth and Lusacan, so it was other gods/goddesses that assisted their enemies. I'm hoping we discover more about the origins of the humans next game but these hints at other civilisations beyond Thedas does also give scope for future games of exploration.
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Post by azarhal on Nov 4, 2021 13:50:33 GMT
There is a chance she was the shadow goddess who made the Avvar cross over to Ferelden Well if you take Solas at his word (and at this stage I take nothing he said as the complete truth), the Shadow Goddess was just a misunderstood, lonely spirit. The Alamarri/Avvar were familiar enough with spirits that they wouldn't be spooked that easily, so there was more to them fleeing the Shadow Goddess than Solas either knows or lets on. The human scholars believe they were escaping a natural disaster and it is possible that it was a combination of the two. In order words the Shadow Goddess caused some natural disaster, such as plague or famine or climate change, and this was why they said they were fleeing the spirit rather than the adverse event itself. Since their legends indicate they were around to see the effects of the Veil, could it be they fled the Shadow Goddess when the Veil initially cut them off from their patron spirits? Could the Shadow Goddess have been a spirit of the land, like the Lady of the Forest, so she was unaffected by the Veil? I am just curious as to where the Alamarri originated. Presumably when they crossed the Frostbacks it was from what is now known as the Dales. This means they could have migrated down from the north and had their origins in the Neromenians but equally they could have come from further west. Whilst the Neromenians may have been the first human group to have arrived on mainland Thedas, that doesn't mean they were necessarily the only humans to have done so and others could have arrived from a totally different starting point in subsequent centuries. This is why I wonder if the Alamarri were an offshoot of the Voshai. They would seem to be versed in magic as later trade was almost exclusively done to acquire lyrium. They were clearly seafarers, like the Neromenians, so they could have arrived totally independently of the latter on the western seaboard of the continent and then gradually made their way eastwards. It might also explain the origin of other tribes, such as the Planasene, the Ciriane and the Ingrish, all of whom seem to have been in constant conflict with the Neromenians and had different gods and traditions from them, bearing in mind that initially the Neromenians seem to have been favoured by Dumat, together with Toth and Lusacan, so it was other gods/goddesses that assisted their enemies. I'm hoping we discover more about the origins of the humans next game but these hints at other civilisations beyond Thedas does also give scope for future games of exploration. I agree that the Almarri wouldn't be confused by a lonely misunderstood spirit going by how much they interact with them. They would probably have tried to help her actually. So there as to be more to the story, but I'm not sure why Solas would try to hide anything there. The story doesn't feel tied to old elven stuff or something he did. Also, my the idea behind Razikale = Shadow Goddess is because she's referred to as O Shadow Which Obscures the Path Ahead in Jaws of Hakkon inscriptions. She's associated a lot with darkness/shadow in JoH actually, which make it weird with that being Lusacan's "portfolio". I'll come back to that later... Where they come from? It's a good question. I personally think they are all split from the same place as originally they were all spirit-animists with some kind of hero-worship. Multi-wave migrations is a thing in Earth history, often split by centuries. So why not on Thedas. It also feels like the "split" was mostly related to worship. The lore suggest they came North and went South, but the worship changed basically every steps of the way with the most Southern one (i.e. Almarri and then Avvar/Chasind) keeping the closest to the original beliefs. Whatever the original place was East/North/South is more complicated, they used boats (or magic) which ever direction they came from. Neromenians went to only worship dragons. Then split into different kingdoms focused on different Old Gods. It is possible the history books are wrong thought and the other 2 kingdoms were not technically Neromenians (came later or first even). It's the Neromenians social-group who united the Imperium and as we know " victory is written by the victor"... Planasenes were farmers, but Nevarrans are big on heroes, mostly dragon-hunters (an anti-Neromenians/Imperium thing I suspect). They are very close to spirits too, but use the dead as host and their belief is a bit different from the others as it's about displacement and not "reincarnation". The practice is said to be influenced by a Tevinter mage and it started with the 1st king Caspar, but that was mid/late Second age. The Chantry would have stopped that right away, especially with Orlais taking over Nevarra city not long after. Also, Tevinter Nights excursion into the Grand Necropolis tells me the Chantry would have exalted that place the minute they heard about it. There was some retcon in Tevinter Nights about the Mortalitasis and Nevarra and I wouldn't be surprised if more was changed in DA4. Alamarri split into sub-groups once in Ferelden, but that seems mostly based on where they went to live. They were the least affected by the Imperium and Chantry and probably the closest to the original beliefs of humans. Now back to the Razikale and darkness. It's interesting that they call Razikale the one responsible for hiding "the path" and asking her for guidance at the same time. It seems to suggest that Razikale was giving guidance originally (hence Augur) before her silence/lessened interactions. At that point, they started to claim she was hiding the path from them instead. Thinking about it, Solas claims blood magic impact your ability to interact with the Fade. Some fans says it's hogwash because of all the blood magic used to summons demons. But maybe he meant that blood magic has a negative impact when you want to interact with none-demon/none-twisted spirits. Could it be what happened: the Magisters used blood magic more and more and it impacted their "communication line"? It might also have caused some twisting and madness among the priesthood... And another comment about Lusacan being a "shadow" and Razikale also referred as one and/or darkness. It feels a lot like Andruil and Falon'Din. There are some elements in the lore that could suggest Falon'Din served Andruil originally (as her -owl- messenger) and then became his own god. Maybe it's the same thing for Lusacan, he was serving Razikale before becoming his own god. Like Lusacan was Razikale's shadow. I tried to find some lore about Lusacan and there isn't a lot around. Or more crazy thoughts: Falon'Din and Lusacan are Envy and just took Andruil/Razikale's stuff from them. Falon'Din was apparently very vain and into being adulated according to Solas. Kinda sound like Envy to me.
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Post by magenpie on Nov 4, 2021 13:50:50 GMT
Is Red Lyrium in fact the biggest threat of all, and the real reason Solas went all stupid is because even he was affected/influenced by it?
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Post by xerrai on Nov 4, 2021 15:48:36 GMT
Is Red Lyrium in fact the biggest threat of all, and the real reason Solas went all stupid is because even he was affected/influenced by it? That is certainly is one of the more popular theories on this forum except for the Solas being influenced by it bit. If anything, we have more signs pointing that the evanuris were likely affected by it (or at least the taint), thus propelling Solas into such drastic action. The games haven't made it explicit yet, but theories connecting the ancient elves to the blight --with some even saying they created it-- have been made as early as DAO, and have continued to be made in each game when new bits of information become available to us. The only thing most of us seem to agree on is that the taint almost definitely existed in ancient times, certainly old enough for the elves to deal with it at one point. But from there theories range wildly regarding its actual origin. Was it an artificial bioweapon that went out of control? Was it the stone's naturally occurring corruption? Or was it a disease born from a murdered titan? Or was it a form of corruption from the ever-mysterious Abyss? Whatever it is, Solas apparently feels that he knows enough about it to form a solid opinion on it. That opinion being that its dangerous, that anyone who tries to control it is a fool, and that it corrupts everything it touches. And its not like he's wrong, but this is one of the few things where he is quite open about his negative stance. Its probably right up there with Qunari in his list of things he hates.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 4, 2021 19:01:42 GMT
Its probably right up there with Qunari in his list of things he hates. I do wonder if the reason the other gods were able to overcome Mythal was through using red lyrium. Either that or the reason they killed her is that she was preventing them from using it. Solas says it was their lust for power that made them murder her. Since they already seemed ultra powerful, it would have to be something significant to make them kill for it. Also, there was that version of Fen'Harel's entrapment that Merrill told. In her version of the story it wasn't simply that he persuaded the two factions of gods to return to their base whilst he negotiated a truce. Instead she says he told them he knew the location of an ultimate weapon that would win the war for them. Then when they headed off to the location, he sprang his trap. Knowing what we now do about the Evanuris and how they viewed Fen'Harel, that does seem plausible because whilst they wouldn't trust him ordinarily, he might well have come up with just the right sort of temptation to lure them into his trap. I've long felt the urgency of performing his latest plan had something to do with either the seal on their prison breaking down or the spread of red lyrium. I could never understand why a being that had slumbered for millennia would be in such a hurry to use his orb that he would risk handing it over to another, even if he thought it would ultimately kill them. Why not simply wait a bit longer to recover his own strength? Also, what was the reason he awoke when he did? Did the timer on his orb go ding? Or was it something in the Waking World that so concerned him, he came out of Uthenera before he was at full strength? What was Felassan's original mission? Was he simply on a fact finding quest to discover how things were going on in the world? Or was it always to get the eluvians working again? Is the reason Solas awoke because Felassan had betrayed him and given the control of the network to Briala? Then why didn't he immediately take them back? If the lyrium idol means so much to Solas, why did he delay on recovering that? Even if he missed its initial discovery from the Fade, surely he must have heard about Meredith's exploits, after he awoke from Uthenera if not before. Yet, as with eluvians, he didn't concern himself with recovering it for several years and then messed up due to trying to keep his involvement secret. Still, if we ever catch up with him again, my main question would be: "What do you know about red lyrium and the origins of the Blight?" Secondary question: "How did they kill Mythal?"
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 4, 2021 19:22:12 GMT
And another comment about Lusacan being a "shadow" and Razikale also referred as one and/or darkness. It feels a lot like Andruil and Falon'Din. There are some elements in the lore that could suggest Falon'Din served Andruil originally (as her -owl- messenger) and then became his own god. Maybe it's the same thing for Lusacan, he was serving Razikale before becoming his own god. Like Lusacan was Razikale's shadow. I tried to find some lore about Lusacan and there isn't a lot around Well, of course, it could be there is a similar relationship between Razikale and Lusacan as there was between Dirthamen and Falon'Din. The codex from the Temple of Mythal says: Dirthamen and Falon'Din were "t win souls" with no family connection. Their bond was not romantic, beyond even the strongest friendship. The oldest elven stories never even name them directly, referring to Falon'Din as "Dirthamen’s shadow," and Dirthamen as "Falon'Din's reflection." May be this was the case initially with Razikale and Lusacan but they came to some sort of understanding later. Or perhaps Razikale grew out of Lusacan in some way. The main thing I've taken from the limited lore about Lusacan is that he seems very similar to Falon'Din. Falon'Din is said to be the god of the dead but this always seemed odd to me if all the elves were originally immortal, so did not die a natural death. According to Dalish legends they only suffered disease fairly late on in their history, so the only way they died originally would have been through accident, war or murder. Then with what Solas says about him, it seems to me the reason he became known as the God of the Dead is because he went around killing people and stirring up trouble so that different factions would kill each other. It seems like he wanted to start a war with Elgar'nan, which would have resulted in a lot of bloodshed, but Mythal intervened and suggested they used champions instead. However, the most interesting aspect of Falon'Din for me was the assertion that he was the one " Who mastered the dark that lies. Whose shadows hunger." Also, that: "F alon’Din had no fear of the night and would walk where the People could not live." I wonder if for night it should read "void" as this is somewhere that the People could not live. In which case, I wonder if it was he who encouraged Andruil to go hunting there. Did he trick her by carrying something sacred to her (a deer) into the Void to make her believe the Forgotten Ones had taken it, so she would wish to exact revenge? (The origin of the story among the Dalish about him carrying a dying deer into the Fade). Then, of course, she returned bringing the plague with her that caused death and corruption of her land.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 4, 2021 20:35:15 GMT
And another comment about Lusacan being a "shadow" and Razikale also referred as one and/or darkness. It feels a lot like Andruil and Falon'Din. There are some elements in the lore that could suggest Falon'Din served Andruil originally (as her -owl- messenger) and then became his own god. Maybe it's the same thing for Lusacan, he was serving Razikale before becoming his own god. Like Lusacan was Razikale's shadow. I tried to find some lore about Lusacan and there isn't a lot around Well, of course, it could be there is a similar relationship between Razikale and Lusacan as there was between Dirthamen and Falon'Din. The codex from the Temple of Mythal says: Dirthamen and Falon'Din were "t win souls" with no family connection. Their bond was not romantic, beyond even the strongest friendship. The oldest elven stories never even name them directly, referring to Falon'Din as "Dirthamen’s shadow," and Dirthamen as "Falon'Din's reflection." May be this was the case initially with Razikale and Lusacan but they came to some sort of understanding later. Or perhaps Razikale grew out of Lusacan in some way. The main thing I've taken from the limited lore about Lusacan is that he seems very similar to Falon'Din. Falon'Din is said to be the god of the dead but this always seemed odd to me if all the elves were originally immortal, so did not die a natural death. According to Dalish legends they only suffered disease fairly late on in their history, so the only way they died originally would have been through accident, war or murder. Then with what Solas says about him, it seems to me the reason he became known as the God of the Dead is because he went around killing people and stirring up trouble so that different factions would kill each other. It seems like he wanted to start a war with Elgar'nan, which would have resulted in a lot of bloodshed, but Mythal intervened and suggested they used champions instead. However, the most interesting aspect of Falon'Din for me was the assertion that he was the one " Who mastered the dark that lies. Whose shadows hunger." Also, that: "F alon’Din had no fear of the night and would walk where the People could not live." I wonder if for night it should read "void" as this is somewhere that the People could not live. In which case, I wonder if it was he who encouraged Andruil to go hunting there. Did he trick her by carrying something sacred to her (a deer) into the Void to make her believe the Forgotten Ones had taken it, so she would wish to exact revenge? (The origin of the story among the Dalish about him carrying a dying deer into the Fade). Then, of course, she returned bringing the plague with her that caused death and corruption of her land. Ancient Elven History was just game of thrones writ large wasn't it? Seems to be a lot more complicated then one really initially believes but if this checks out then Falon'Din should probably be regarded as the villain of Dalish lore.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Nov 4, 2021 23:31:49 GMT
You know, I've been looking at The Maker recently and I've noticed similar comparisons between him and the First Warden. Like considering the following: - Both have always been referred to as men. - Neither have been ever named. - We've never met either (yet) However, going through the novels I've noticed something interesting in how others speak of the First Warden. We know the chantry is largely deistic considering the Maker has turned his back creation, but look at these paragraphs from books when characters talk about the First Warden. (From Last Flight.) "I doubt the First Warden knows himself. Most likely he’ll wait to see what the Chantry says, and then what it does. He’ll want to assess any possible schisms between the Chantry and the templars, and within the templars. And he’ll want to wait and see how the mages’ rebellion plays out. Only then, I suspect, will the First Warden take any definite stand. He’s a cautious man.” “A cowardly man, more like,” Valya said bitterly.
Or “Try to,” Sekah said. “They might be our comrades-in-arms soon. If we’re lucky. If the Maker gives Diguier the sign he’s looking for, and the First Warden doesn’t decide to pick a side in this conflict after all.” Valya hesitated. “How do we make that happen?” “The Maker’s ways are his own. There’s nothing we can do about that. But as for the First Warden…”Or from the codex entry The nominal leader of our order is the First Warden, but you can expect little assistance or guidance so far from the Anderfels. Even those close to Weisshaupt learn to suffer alone. The murmurs are true—the First Warden is often embroiled in the politics of the Anderfels and has little opportunity to consider worldly matters. I would like to believe it is a matter of survival, not of political self-interest.It sounds like he has a hands off approach, just like the Maker in the Chantry. Coincidence? I don't think so I don't necessarily think the First Warden is 100% the Maker and has just being hanging out in the Anderfels all this time, but I wonder if the First Warden was the basis in how chantry depicted the maker in it's art. I'm sure I have the timelines screwed up here, but Drakon and Orlais saved the Wardens asses back in the day when it was under siege. So impressed were they with Drakon that the later converted to the Chantry, before the Anderfels fell into the Orlesian empire. Maybe as this point the First Warden was used as the basis design wise for the Maker?
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Post by azarhal on Nov 4, 2021 23:32:37 GMT
And another comment about Lusacan being a "shadow" and Razikale also referred as one and/or darkness. It feels a lot like Andruil and Falon'Din. There are some elements in the lore that could suggest Falon'Din served Andruil originally (as her -owl- messenger) and then became his own god. Maybe it's the same thing for Lusacan, he was serving Razikale before becoming his own god. Like Lusacan was Razikale's shadow. I tried to find some lore about Lusacan and there isn't a lot around Well, of course, it could be there is a similar relationship between Razikale and Lusacan as there was between Dirthamen and Falon'Din. The codex from the Temple of Mythal says: Dirthamen and Falon'Din were "t win souls" with no family connection. Their bond was not romantic, beyond even the strongest friendship. The oldest elven stories never even name them directly, referring to Falon'Din as "Dirthamen’s shadow," and Dirthamen as "Falon'Din's reflection." May be this was the case initially with Razikale and Lusacan but they came to some sort of understanding later. Or perhaps Razikale grew out of Lusacan in some way. The main thing I've taken from the limited lore about Lusacan is that he seems very similar to Falon'Din. Falon'Din is said to be the god of the dead but this always seemed odd to me if all the elves were originally immortal, so did not die a natural death. According to Dalish legends they only suffered disease fairly late on in their history, so the only way they died originally would have been through accident, war or murder. Then with what Solas says about him, it seems to me the reason he became known as the God of the Dead is because he went around killing people and stirring up trouble so that different factions would kill each other. It seems like he wanted to start a war with Elgar'nan, which would have resulted in a lot of bloodshed, but Mythal intervened and suggested they used champions instead. However, the most interesting aspect of Falon'Din for me was the assertion that he was the one " Who mastered the dark that lies. Whose shadows hunger." Also, that: "F alon’Din had no fear of the night and would walk where the People could not live." I wonder if for night it should read "void" as this is somewhere that the People could not live. In which case, I wonder if it was he who encouraged Andruil to go hunting there. Did he trick her by carrying something sacred to her (a deer) into the Void to make her believe the Forgotten Ones had taken it, so she would wish to exact revenge? (The origin of the story among the Dalish about him carrying a dying deer into the Fade). Then, of course, she returned bringing the plague with her that caused death and corruption of her land. Not family connection? So Mythal/Elgar'nan didn't have them as kids (with Andruil, Silaise)? I never believed that part of the Dalish myth anyway. Too many contradictions. " Whose shadows hunger", Falon'Din was so Envy. I find it strange that Falon'Din would have been praised for being able to go into the Void, while Andruil was negatively seen for doing the same even before she got mad or her land was plagued...but if Falon'Din manipulated her to go there. Poor Andruil. Ancient Elven History was just game of thrones writ large wasn't it? Seems to be a lot more complicated then one really initially believes but if this checks out then Falon'Din should probably be regarded as the villain of Dalish lore. Sumerian/Greek/Egyptian mythology did it first. It's basically how every polytheist religions is written. People loves for dramatic stories with romance, backstabbing, manipulation, Daddy/Mommy's issues and Big Bad isn't recent.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Nov 5, 2021 3:27:27 GMT
Is Red Lyrium in fact the biggest threat of all, and the real reason Solas went all stupid is because even he was affected/influenced by it? I have a theory myself that every major enemy you meet in DAI (Erimond, Florianne, Samson, Calpernia) was being influenced by red lyrium in some way, and that's because of their close proximity to it via Cory. I mean, obviously Samson was being influenced. But the way that Erimond and Florianne acted was similar to Meredith. They all had a means to and end, and their means was just batshit crazy and would have never succeeded. I don't think they were juicing on the stuff (maybe Erimond since he can somehow call on the Red Lyrium Dragon), but being in close proximity to the red lyrium growing on Cory's body may have affected them. Calpernia had a much stronger will, so I don't think she was affected as much. So to answer your first question, definitely. Mind you, Mary Kirby has pointed out that Red Lyrium is her favorite villain. As for Solas... I'm not sure. There's a lot of questions that need to be answered. He certainly - and strangely - seemed to be involved with it at some point. Note that Andruil went mad when she entered the Abyss to hunt The Forgotten Ones, but for some reason, Solas could walk amongst them. I will say that demons do not seem to be affected by red lyrium. In fact, judging by Ishmael the Forbidden One, demons can somehow manipulate it and handle it safely. If Solas is truly a walking Pride Demon, that could explain why he is attempting to mess with the stuff come DA4, at least if the TDWR mural is any indication. Hosting Mythal might also play into it, as there seems to be a connection between her and red lyrium. I don't think Solas has or will succumb to Red Lyrium. But like I said, there's a lot of questions left unanswered. If the lyrium idol means so much to Solas, why did he delay on recovering that? Even if he missed its initial discovery from the Fade, surely he must have heard about Meredith's exploits, after he awoke from Uthenera if not before. Yet, as with eluvians, he didn't concern himself with recovering it for several years and then messed up due to trying to keep his involvement secret. Solas fumbled this so bad it's almost perplexing. We know he has been keeping watch on the idol and is heavily invested in it and whoever's hands it is in thanks to it being let loose - but like, why didn't he just leave it in Meredith's body in the first place and grabbed it when he absolutely needed it? Who else would have known it was in there? If Solas needed it, he could have grabbed it EASILY. Now Charter knows it connects to Solas and that he wants it. And now so does The Inquisition. So much for keeping it a secret. This is why I almost believe that whoever was talking to that elf in their dreams was not Solas or his elf crew, but possibly an enemy of his - maybe The Executors? Which is why Solas people had to intervene so quickly and send his people to recover it. Otherwise, Solas just looks like a fool... AGAIN.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 5, 2021 8:33:43 GMT
This is why I almost believe that whoever was talking to that elf in their dreams was not Solas or his elf crew, but possibly an enemy of his - maybe The Executors? Which is why Solas people had to intervene so quickly and send his people to recover it. Otherwise, Solas just looks like a fool... AGAIN. Someone else speaking to that elf would explain it. It is not as though Solas is the only person who can do this. According to the Dalish (and confirmed by Felassan through him rubbishing it) all the ancient dreamers could speak to their followers from Uthenera. I seem to recall Tevinter maintained the same about ancient human dreamers or at least they were able to attack their enemies through the Fade. Also we know Feynriel was able to influence the minds of people in the Freemarches when he was up in Minrathous. So essentially anyone who is a Dreamer has the potential to do this but the really ancient ones, like Solas, are particularly adept at it. If that one in Masked Empire hadn't been killed by his own servants, Felassan said that he could have helped them, though he never specified in what way. Still, it seems highly likely that Solas wasn't the only ancient dreamer to have survived to the present or the Temple of Mythal was the only surviving ancient elven site and the others would likely be opposed to him. It also may be significant that the elf spoken to was Dalish. Solas seems to have nothing but contempt for the Dalish and it would be odd for him to use one of them for such an important task. However, since the Dalish venerate the other elven gods, it would make sense for an ancient dreamer follower of one of them to contact a Dalish. Still Solas' followers, if that is what they were, called him "brother", which would be unlikely if he was working for their enemies and asked the Dread Wolf to guide his soul to peace, which is definitely not something one of his enemies would say. As for the Executors being involved, originally it seemed they might be a human faction representing those "across the sea" but twice now there seem to be hints that they are linked in some way to the ancient elves. The symbols and smell of the sea in Horror of Hormack would seem to connect them to the activities of the goddess depicted in the murals, likely Ghilan'nain. Then the picture accompanying Ruins of Reality has the figures adorned with symbols that look very much how the Executors symbol is described in the War Table Missions and the statue, that is recovered after following the journal that strangely started to write itself, is again linked to Ghilan'nain. So it seems a good bet that the Executors are behind a lot of strange events that have started to occur and thus your suggestion they might also have communicated with the Dalish elf in order to attempt the recovery of the idol seems a reasonable one. (Maybe Solas followers knew he had been manipulated and that is why they felt sympathy for him). We know they are in opposition to Solas and that he is wary enough of them that he silenced their agent before they could divulge any useful information and warned Charter of the danger they posed. Was that a genuine warning or does he just not want the Inquisition working with them? I have to admit that I'm hoping we won't be disappointed with the Executors and they will prove to be an interesting addition to the factions around in DA4. They definitely use human agents so either that is just expediency or they aren't just exclusively made up of ancient elves. Alternatively, I suppose they could be a faction from a very ancient human civilisation. I got the impression though that their agent in Tevinter Nights probably wasn't one of the known races.
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Post by magenpie on Nov 5, 2021 9:32:10 GMT
dadithinkimgay - yes it just occured to me that Red Lyrium seems to prey on a person's deepest desires or fears, rather than putting new notions into their heads. Obviously Solas/Fen isn't exactly a 'person', but if god-type (ish) beings are indeed affected by Red Lyrium, the consequences would be devastating, and would result in the kind of plan he's set on. I don't think he's the origin of it though. I think, in his own irritatingly aloof way, he's far too compassionate and interested in living beings, even if elves and spirits are his faves. He is fascinated and emotionally moved by the world, so deciding to scrap it entirely for wonders lost seems a bit weird. I wondered whether the Levellan romance is there to show the moment where Red Lyrium takes it's hold on him? Red Lyrium sets his resolve because any diversion or questioning of his path is a weakness, and those things only serve to show him how he must make 'the hard choices'. Just like Meredith.
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Post by azarhal on Nov 5, 2021 15:30:48 GMT
I'm not sure I would say Red Lyrium is influencing people or it's not doing it more than Blue Lyrium does.
Blue Lyrium also cause people to hear/see things and going by the hints given about the Chantry Templar "retirement home", Red Lyrium might not be worst than it (ignoring the Taint part). It's just that Red Lyrium usage is uncontrolled. People are using it in great quantity and it seems unprocessed(?) in some cases.
Actually, Red Lyrium might have been created when someone tried to turn Blue Lyrium into something that is usable unprocessed and speed up its growing rate and potency for certain spells. The Taint being the ingredient that made it possible.
As for it not affecting demons, it seems that like the Taint, Lyrium only affect living things, but spirits can hear it.
Also, there is Green/Yellow Lyrium. That variety is mentioned in Horror in Hormak in Tevinter Nights, but we have the glowing rocks in the Hissing Waste and at the start of DAI at the Temple that was probably our "first exposure" to it.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 5, 2021 20:17:22 GMT
I'm not sure I would say Red Lyrium is influencing people or it's not doing it more than Blue Lyrium does. Blue Lyrium also cause people to hear/see things and going by the hints given about the Chantry Templar "retirement home", Red Lyrium might not be worst than it (ignoring the Taint part). It's just that Red Lyrium usage is uncontrolled. People are using it in great quantity and it seems unprocessed(?) in some cases. Actually, Red Lyrium might have been created when someone tried to turn Blue Lyrium into something that is usable unprocessed and speed up its growing rate and potency for certain spells. The Taint being the ingredient that made it possible. As for it not affecting demons, it seems that like the Taint, Lyrium only affect living things, but spirits can hear it. Also, there is Green/Yellow Lyrium. That variety is mentioned in Horror in Hormak in Tevinter Nights, but we have the glowing rocks in the Hissing Waste and at the start of DAI at the Temple that was probably our "first exposure" to it. Piggybacking off of one of my earliest theories it would be interesting if all these Lyrium types are some sort of 'mood ring' for the Titans. Now I can only speculate on what every single type of Lyrium would signify from an emotional standpoint but it seems obvious that red lyrium would tie into an angry Titan. But, for me what this means practically is that whatever form that Lyrium takes...and your post reminded me that I actually got this from reading up some of the stuff and effects of blue lyrium is that lyrium represents a 'hollowing out of the persons will' and replacing it with something else. We know that Dwarves, or at least its implied, that they had a hive mind connection to the Titans during prehistoric times and we also know...as you said...that anyone taking it hears some kind of voices. So this implies to me, for the purposes of theory crafting, that essentially a 'blue lyrium' titan, a calm one can influence any life forms with blue lyrium and a red lyrium titan can influence someone using red lyrium...but also since the Titans seem to be in hibernation...this means that any awake creatures tied to one of these substances sort of can preempt it. Corypheus could influence anyone with red lyrium/ blight (and we know there is some sort of connection there) but not anyone with blue Lyrium. Of course red lyrium could just be blighted lyrium and I am way off the mark but that does not explain the existance of the other types.
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Post by azarhal on Nov 5, 2021 23:50:30 GMT
I'm not sure I would say Red Lyrium is influencing people or it's not doing it more than Blue Lyrium does. Blue Lyrium also cause people to hear/see things and going by the hints given about the Chantry Templar "retirement home", Red Lyrium might not be worst than it (ignoring the Taint part). It's just that Red Lyrium usage is uncontrolled. People are using it in great quantity and it seems unprocessed(?) in some cases. Actually, Red Lyrium might have been created when someone tried to turn Blue Lyrium into something that is usable unprocessed and speed up its growing rate and potency for certain spells. The Taint being the ingredient that made it possible. As for it not affecting demons, it seems that like the Taint, Lyrium only affect living things, but spirits can hear it. Also, there is Green/Yellow Lyrium. That variety is mentioned in Horror in Hormak in Tevinter Nights, but we have the glowing rocks in the Hissing Waste and at the start of DAI at the Temple that was probably our "first exposure" to it. Piggybacking off of one of my earliest theories it would be interesting if all these Lyrium types are some sort of 'mood ring' for the Titans. Now I can only speculate on what every single type of Lyrium would signify from an emotional standpoint but it seems obvious that red lyrium would tie into an angry Titan. But, for me what this means practically is that whatever form that Lyrium takes...and your post reminded me that I actually got this from reading up some of the stuff and effects of blue lyrium is that lyrium represents a 'hollowing out of the persons will' and replacing it with something else. We know that Dwarves, or at least its implied, that they had a hive mind connection to the Titans during prehistoric times and we also know...as you said...that anyone taking it hears some kind of voices. So this implies to me, for the purposes of theory crafting, that essentially a 'blue lyrium' titan, a calm one can influence any life forms with blue lyrium and a red lyrium titan can influence someone using red lyrium...but also since the Titans seem to be in hibernation...this means that any awake creatures tied to one of these substances sort of can preempt it. Corypheus could influence anyone with red lyrium/ blight (and we know there is some sort of connection there) but not anyone with blue Lyrium. Of course red lyrium could just be blighted lyrium and I am way off the mark but that does not explain the existance of the other types. Red Lyrium is blighted and Cole does say it is " angry" (well " less angry" when cold). We just don't know the source. Considering how it grows on/in people (everywhere really), it might not be actual "Titan's blood". So it's red because it's fake. Like the old Star Wars lore that Sith used red crystal in their lightsabers because they were synthetic. I'm pretty sure Corypheus used the Taint to influence/communicate. It's already connecting blighted creatures together (it's why Warden can sense darkspawns and get those dreams). It's like the Taint allow for an hivemind between tainted creatures based on proximity (the Archdemon having a greater reach than others) and some strong individuals can take over (like Corypheus, the Architect or an Archdemon). Interesting parallel: Darkspawns = ancient dwarves Archdemon = Titan (song included) Taint (contains) = whatever connects the dwarves to the Titan Red (fake) Lyrium = Blue Lyrium It's like someone created a fake version of the Titan/dwarves, but they lost control of it and it turned into the T-virus. That doesn't explain Green/Yellow Lyrium, although, Yellow was around those brine pools and part of whatever magic was going on there. *shivers*
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Post by colfoley on Nov 6, 2021 0:11:54 GMT
Piggybacking off of one of my earliest theories it would be interesting if all these Lyrium types are some sort of 'mood ring' for the Titans. Now I can only speculate on what every single type of Lyrium would signify from an emotional standpoint but it seems obvious that red lyrium would tie into an angry Titan. But, for me what this means practically is that whatever form that Lyrium takes...and your post reminded me that I actually got this from reading up some of the stuff and effects of blue lyrium is that lyrium represents a 'hollowing out of the persons will' and replacing it with something else. We know that Dwarves, or at least its implied, that they had a hive mind connection to the Titans during prehistoric times and we also know...as you said...that anyone taking it hears some kind of voices. So this implies to me, for the purposes of theory crafting, that essentially a 'blue lyrium' titan, a calm one can influence any life forms with blue lyrium and a red lyrium titan can influence someone using red lyrium...but also since the Titans seem to be in hibernation...this means that any awake creatures tied to one of these substances sort of can preempt it. Corypheus could influence anyone with red lyrium/ blight (and we know there is some sort of connection there) but not anyone with blue Lyrium. Of course red lyrium could just be blighted lyrium and I am way off the mark but that does not explain the existance of the other types. Red Lyrium is blighted and Cole does say it is " angry" (well " less angry" when cold). We just don't know the source. Considering how it grows on/in people (everywhere really), it might not be actual "Titan's blood". So it's red because it's fake. Like the old Star Wars lore that Sith used red crystal in their lightsabers because they were synthetic. I'm pretty sure Corypheus used the Taint to influence/communicate. It's already connecting blighted creatures together (it's why Warden can sense darkspawns and get those dreams). It's like the Taint allow for an hivemind between tainted creatures based on proximity (the Archdemon having a greater reach than others) and some strong individuals can take over (like Corypheus, the Architect or an Archdemon). Interesting parallel: Darkspawns = ancient dwarves Archdemon = Titan (song included) Taint (contains) = whatever connects the dwarves to the Titan Red (fake) Lyrium = Blue Lyrium It's like someone created a fake version of the Titan/dwarves, but they lost control of it and it turned into the T-virus. That doesn't explain Green/Yellow Lyrium, although, Yellow was around those brine pools and part of whatever magic was going on there. *shivers* Its an explanation per se but it still opens up a whole alternative source for the explanation on the phemnon. Lyrium is this magical substance from which all others spawn and then you have Elves running experiments which created Red Lyrium and then other Elves were running experiments which created Yellow and these various Elven groups were just running experiments on it which produced different effects. Maybe yellow lyrium makes things like genetic manipulation easier. Hell maybe that is the difference each stage of lyrium is not created by emotion but can effect them or manipulate different aspects of life. Still the only issue I have with this interpretation is that Andruil went into 'the Void' and came back corrupted and insane. Many people...I think...and certainly myself...wonders if this was the discovery of the Blight/ Red Lyrium which suggests that it was around first. Though I just realized to (one of the things which makes theorizing so fun ) is that one of the Elves could have easily been like 'well I wonder what happens if you mix 'Void/ Blight' and Lyrium )
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 6, 2021 12:31:35 GMT
A few thoughts on red lyrium versus other types:
Blue lyrium seems to be the original substance and is connected in some way with the creation of the Material World. So whilst we are told lyrium is the blood of the titans, maybe this is simply because they are the original primeval earth creatures, so it pre-dates them but is also part of them. In the Chant the Maker is called the Wellspring of Creation; the Chantry claim lyrium is the voice of the Maker and the area within the titan in the Descent is called the Wellsrping. Blue lyrium definitely connects with the Fade. This is why it helps mages to channel magic. We were originally told that lyrium was a mineral but this would seem to be the dried out/solid version of the pure liquid; a bit like dried out blood. Anyway it does seem to be connected with the source of life, at least in the Waking World.
Red lyrium is also an organic substance. The idea that it is a synthesised/fake version of lyrium is interesting but for now I prefer to stick with the idea that it is corrupted regular lyrium. The question is which came first, the Blight or the red lyrium. Solas makes an interesting observation the first time we visit the Temple of Sacred Ashes, which is often missed. When Cassandra and Varric are debating how red lyrium came to be there, Solas suggests that maybe the magic used in the explosion corrupted it. Given how evasive Solas is normally, when he says something like that, I tend to assume he is actually stating fact but pretending it is just speculation. The Temple was built over a mountain full of lyrium according to Oghran. So, red lyrium is lyrium corrupted by magic. This could either be the magic used to defeat the titans or the magic of the Void (or both). Red lyrium would seem to draw its power from something other than the Fade. According to Last Flight, blight magic also draws its power from somewhere other than the Fade, as does blood magic. Solas also claimed he did not use blood magic because it interfered with his connection to the Fade. We have never been told exactly how blood magic obtains its power other than it is not from the Fade. However, PW suggested that sacrifice is an important part of it. So it is not the life force of blood itself which powers the magic but the surrender of some part of the life force (or all of it) makes the bargain that allows the Void magic to flow. In the Last Flight Calien also says that it is a "blind bargain" because you never have total control over the results.
Green/yellow lyrium is also likely the result of magic corrupting lyrium but in a different way.
When the Magisters used a monstrous blood sacrifice combined with large amounts of lyrium to open the way to the Golden City, maybe they corrupted not only the lyrium they used but that also infected the lyrium from which the City was constructed. Although, Corypheus says the reverse and that the City was already corrupt, so if what he said was true, then likely it was the City which corrupted everything that came into contact with it, including the lyrium used in their ritual.
Blue lyrium is connected with the Wellspring and the source of all life Red lyrium is connected with the Void and the source of corruption, disease and death.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 9, 2021 9:21:14 GMT
I'm sure I have the timelines screwed up here, but Drakon and Orlais saved the Wardens asses back in the day when it was under siege. So impressed were they with Drakon that the later converted to the Chantry, before the Anderfels fell into the Orlesian empire. The Anderfels became part of the Orlesian empire because Drakon invaded them to save their assess. However, they later kicked out Orlais whilst the 2nd Blight was still active. So I think they took Drakon at his word that he had divine assistance, which is why they converted to the Maker, following the lead of the Grey Wardens. Thus they believed they owed their salvation to the Maker rather than Orlais and had no reason to stay under their control once Drakon (his chosen one) was dead. " Whose shadows hunger", Falon'Din was so Envy. I find it strange that Falon'Din would have been praised for being able to go into the Void, while Andruil was negatively seen for doing the same even before she got mad or her land was plagued...but if Falon'Din manipulated her to go there. Poor Andruil. The difference is that the codex praising him was attached to an item associated with his priesthood, so would have been written by one of his supporters. Whereas the codex criticising Andruil was in the Temple of Mythal, so would have been written from the perspective of her priesthood, who knew that Mythal had been forced to sort out the mess and deal with her. I still think the references to Falon'Din and Lusacan suggest some sort off connection between the two. Maybe Lusacan was an ancient elf dedicated to Falon-Din, who was in Uthenera (so there was a reason they were sleeping) and spoke to anyone who would listen through the Fade. They were imprisoned in their chamber by the raising of the Veil but survived because they had achieved the perfection of the ultimate state where they drew their sustenance totally from the Fade for their survival. This could have been true of all the Old Gods. Breaking into the Golden City simultaneously broke the seal on their chamber, so they sang in order that their followers could find them. However, at some point, may be after the Golden City assault, instead of drawing sustenance from the Fade, they started drawing it fro the Void, sending them insane and so they no longer answered the prayers of their followers and their song attracted the darkspawn instead. Despite what Solas says, there has to be some sort of link between the ancient elves and the Old Gods, or why would Mythal be so interested in their survival? She specifically says the Old God soul was "snatched from the jaws of darkness," and if I am right about night/darkness meaning the Void, then she was trying to save them from it, just as she did Andruil. Remember Corypheus claims they "discovered the darkness" and let it permeate their being, so he equates darkness with the blight and thus blight magic, which I feel draws its power from the Void. Further references to Falon'Din/Lusacan and their possible connection with the blight: Falon'Din: "Who mastered the dark that lies.....Whose wings of death surround him thick as night." "Falon'Din had no fear of the night and walked where the People could not live." Lusacan: "Lusacan calls to you. He lives where it is darkest and waits for the day when he will rise. Drink of his blood and know the power in darkness; either fear the night or wield it". Note if Lusacan has not yet risen, how can they drink his blood? Unless, of course, they are referring to red lyrium, which is related to ordinary lyrium that we have been told is blood. So is Lusacan connected to a titan in some way? Or did he just claim that red lyrium was his blood? Also his high priest is called the "Watchman of the Night."
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Post by azarhal on Nov 9, 2021 18:26:58 GMT
Despite what Solas says, there has to be some sort of link between the ancient elves and the Old Gods, or why would Mythal be so interested in their survival? I like the theory that they are part of the magical locks on the doors behind which the Enuvaris are locked. That would means there is a few of those door seals that have been weakened now. Mythal is very "protect the dragons at all cost" so her wanting to save them doesn't sound that special to me once I learned of that aspect. There is actually an interesting contrast between Solas and Mythal when it comes to the Wardens, Blight and Archdemons. She wanted the Blight stopped, she knows the Wardens are required and she knew how they went about it so she had a ritual to deal with it. Solas is just pissed about everything... I actually do wonder if Mythal approves of Solas's action. She complained about the world being betrayed in DAO, but the only betrayal related to the World I can see is Solas putting the Veil up.
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