KrrKs
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: KrrKs
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krrks
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KrrKs on Aug 5, 2020 20:28:07 GMT
I've read a great deal about the development issues with Dragon Age Inquisition, and it's pretty clear that the developers had massive problems getting to Frostbyte engine to run an RPG-type game, as it was designed specifically for shooters, and lacked many of the necessary tools. The lack of tactics screen in Inquisition was likely a result of Frostbyte's limitations. Frosty Mod Manager allows only superficial modding of the game, mostly skins and more skins, along with some minor graphical tweaks or changes to spell damage. There are no proper modding tools for either Inquisition of Mass Effect Andromeda. No method of adding new content, or radically changing existing content or mechanics. By contrast DA:O has a huge range of mods available - everything from overhauls of the AI, new NPCs and creatures, right through to entirely new areas and quests. The thing is, neither would have Unreal Engine had tactics screen, it would had to be built too and all the other things to support RPG game, as with Eclipse Engine, but now they had a basis of an excellent visual quality already in the engine unlike the previous gen UE. Sure you might be right about the FMM and Frostbite modding, I havent checked that out much except used the mods. In the end I personally dont want or care to have new NPCs or creatures or areas as usually they are not up to quality etc. just some enhancements to original game behaviour like in Andromeda I use some fixpacks, like in ME1 too. Maybe KrrKs knows more about it?
Uhh, this is a can of worms, I'll try to add my ant perspective 
I too heard that there were massive problems with Developing an RPG framework for Frostbite, and this most likely is not exaggerated. But the as Unicephalon pointed out, DA:O (I guess DA2 as well) were made using an old inhouse engine which showed its age already in DAO, honestly. The ME Trilogy games were made with Unreal 3, which had also reached end of life when DAI was started.
So, for Dragon age they had to switch to a new engine anyway, with all the problems such a transition creates. ME could potentially stayed with Unreal 4, but even that transition is not all that easy it seems (see e.g.,: Transferring from UE3 to UE4). So the worst case scenario is creating everything from scratch in all cases. And honestly, EAs idea to use one unified game engine that is maintained and developed by themselves for what they need it to be is a really good one. Each of their studious not only gets the knowledge about how that engine is used, but also how it works, each one adding functionality that can be used by all others. (Site-note: The software-house and project I work for and with tried to introduce something along those lines like ages ago and are enforcing it now. The benefit is real, but such transitions are never easy and we still have massive problems.)
As for 'made for shooters', well yes. Frostbite was made for shooters, Unreal as well. Than they added vehicles and larger and larger maps and nowadays those engines are not at all comparable to what they were when they were first made.
The lack of a real tactics screen and the reduced number of abilities is more likely a design choice than it is an effect of the engine the game runs on. While the same happened to MEA on that engine, the roots in that case are quite clearly the Multiplayer part of ME3. And as my fore poster pointed out, ME doesn't have a tactics screen either.
There are no proper official modding tools for any Mass Effect game and not for DAI, that is true. But as far as I know there are generally no modding tools for any EA game since DAO (The exception being CnC Remastered), and very very few modding tools or helpers for UE games. The one or two that I know are not fully fledged tools (to my understanding), but rather game assets for use in the Unreal map editor. ( One is the SDK for the fan made RenegadeX, the other evades my mind, there is a third still unreleased and unfinished fan made game that was inteded to come with full modding support). Some reasons for this were explained by Ask a Game Dev. That still sucks though. And yeah, that Frostbite is an EA exclusive engine means that there is much less official documentation available for outsiders, which in turn makes developing modding tools even more complicated.
The last few Frosty Tool versions actually allow creating and adding stuff in some limited fashion. (Most actual game and engine logic is still completely hidden or obscure though - at least in case of MEA)
But most mods for Bioware games and the most visible are always visual replacers (Different hair, new armour textures, shiny reshades, and the like). That is not because there are no other options (or at least no primarily), but because most of the fan base, and such most of the modders prefer those kind of mods over fully fledged content mods like EGM or Spectre or mods that simply add new items or features. Sure, actually adding new creatures or NPCs, new storylines, or maps is currently not possible for frostbite games (sadly). But I'm pretty sure that even for DA:O, with all the tools and experience available, the number of visual replacer mods vastly outnumbers the amount of other mods.
And lastly about load times: I don't think those depend on the engine that much. That DAI takes that much longer to load than DAO is simply (mostly) because there is that much more to load. The models have a vastly better qualities, so do the textures. Just look at the installation sizes!
So, TLDR: Frosty is probably hard to work with and extremely hard to mod. That is sadly true for most game engines, especially the ones with frostbites capabilities.
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Unicephalon 40-D
An unknown possibly hostile flotilla detected at eight hundred astronomical units from the sun!
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legendcncd
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 5, 2020 20:40:19 GMT
The thing is, neither would have Unreal Engine had tactics screen, it would had to be built too and all the other things to support RPG game, as with Eclipse Engine, but now they had a basis of an excellent visual quality already in the engine unlike the previous gen UE. Sure you might be right about the FMM and Frostbite modding, I havent checked that out much except used the mods. In the end I personally dont want or care to have new NPCs or creatures or areas as usually they are not up to quality etc. just some enhancements to original game behaviour like in Andromeda I use some fixpacks, like in ME1 too. Maybe KrrKs knows more about it?
So, for Dragon age they had to switch to a new engine anyway, with all the problems such a transition creates. ME could potentially stayed with Unreal 4, but even that transition is not all that easy it seems (see e.g.,: Transferring from UE3 to UE4). So the worst case scenario is creating everything from scratch in all cases. And honestly, EAs idea to use one unified game engine that is maintained and developed by themselves for what they need it to be is a really good one. Each of their studious not only gets the knowledge about how that engine is used, but also how it works, each one adding functionality that can be used by all others. (Site-note: The software-house and project I work for and with tried to introduce something along those lines like ages ago and are enforcing it now. The benefit is real, but such transitions are never easy and we still have massive problems.)
As for 'made for shooters', well yes. Frostbite was made for shooters, Unreal as well. Than they added vehicles and larger and larger maps and nowadays those engines are not at all comparable to what they were when they were first made.
The lack of a real tactics screen and the reduced number of abilities is more likely a design choice than it is an effect of the engine the game runs on. While the same happened to MEA on that engine, the roots in that case are quite clearly the Multiplayer part of ME3. And as my fore poster pointed out, ME doesn't have a tactics screen either.
And lastly about load times: I don't think those depend on the engine that much. That DAI takes that much longer to load than DAO is simply (mostly) because there is that much more to load. The models have a vastly better qualities, so do the textures. Just look at the installation sizes!
So, TLDR: Frosty is probably hard to work with and extremely hard to mod. That is sadly true for most game engines, especially the ones with frostbites capabilities.
Excellent writing. As one who has dabbled into old UE and some older engines, doing work in gaming industry I just also wanted to say the things "feeling simple, why dont they do it" are not usually that simple things to do.. especially transitioning from engine to engine might take a long long time to achieve parity what was built on top of previous one. Also it seems for every new part of the game series needs to have different UI, I understand this also but.. ah well as I said things are not so simple as they look outside when rageing 
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Cantina
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Vive la révolution mages!
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Cantina on Sept 27, 2020 1:55:31 GMT
- give a voice to the Warden A voiced warden will make like 97% of all die-hard Origins fanboys explode.  With that being said, I would be in for it if it is done well. I would be apart of that 97%.
And a world of no to redoing this game in Frostbite. That engine can bite my hairy ass.
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deathscepter
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Post by Phantom on Sept 27, 2020 3:12:56 GMT
A voiced warden will make like 97% of all die-hard Origins fanboys explode. With that being said, I would be in for it if it is done well. I would be apart of that 97%.
And a world of no to redoing this game in Frostbite. That engine can bite my hairy ass.
I will be in the same camp. A voiced warden like a voiced Revan and Jedi Exile is weird as hell.
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Dukemon
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Dukemon11
PSN: dukemon09
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Dukemon on Oct 3, 2020 10:57:57 GMT
Yes, Origins does not need Frostbite. When they rereleasing Origins, they could change the Dark Ritual. The male part of this Ritual could get a Penile Fracture by a new % chance, to give it a bad taste for the Warden that is doing it with Morrigan. Wardens who are in a romance with Morrigan does not get it anyway. That would make this scene more funny. |
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I sense you judge me, yet have no right to.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Oct 4, 2020 5:07:22 GMT
The Warden's dialogue is totally unsuitable for a word for word voiced performance. It's just too short and direct most of the time, and the way dialogue progresses can be quite awkward when you're selecting the same sentence over and over again when you want to backtrack and explore a different discussion in that same instance. A lot of that awkwardness is obscured behind the protag's silence, and it's best just left that way.
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Cantina
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Post by Cantina on Oct 13, 2020 23:44:17 GMT
I would be apart of that 97%.
And a world of no to redoing this game in Frostbite. That engine can bite my hairy ass.
I will be in the same camp. A voiced warden like a voiced Revan and Jedi Exile is weird as hell. Exactly!
I really do not understand the NEED for a character to be voiced. Perhaps because I came from a different generation where video games were starting and for many years there was no character voice.
While Frostbite is a powerful tool it was not made to be used for games of the open zone or even open world type. Which makes sense as to why DAI was just awful. But I digress.
There were two noticeable large problems with the DAI. One, the dialogue would be reused here and there and two, the awful facial expressions. Sometimes the expression would not fit with what was going on and/or said. Other-times the expression was overdone.
As an example: Shortly after your arrival to Skyhold you can speak to Dorian. During this first conversation you can ask Dorian, "Who does the Imperium say started The Blight?" Ugh. I have no idea what it looks like on a male character but on my female character looks like she is mouthing an invisible apple <shivers>. Then when you speak to Varric after his fight with Cassandra, you can ask, "That got a little heated...." and she is doing this weird eye thing while staring at the ceiling.....uh...what?!!
Personally, I felt the expressions in DA2 were done rather well. OK, aside from that weird look Hawke does in the Deep Roads if you take Carver or Bethany with you.
So, again, having my Warden voiced, with piss poor expressions and the bonus of having some of her dialogue repeated....I'll pass.
DAO is the foundation of the DA series. Leave it be.
I don't need pretty graphics to make a game better.
What makes DAO a good game it was made before Bioware sold their souls to EA.
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bolt
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by bolt on Oct 28, 2020 23:52:58 GMT
Fix the memory bleed issue. By the time I get to the Battle of Denerim, the game is chugging like it blew an ignition coil. I also wouldn't say no to restoring the cut origin stories.
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correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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correctamundo
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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A thousand and then some.
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Post by correctamundo on Nov 2, 2020 10:55:21 GMT
Unmute the Warden.  Put a horn on the Qun. And fix the arms of my poor dwarves. |
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michaeln7
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by michaeln7 on Jan 31, 2021 5:10:21 GMT
"IF DAO WERE TO BE REMADE USING FROSTBITE, WHAT CHANGES WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE IN THE GAME?"
Well, the first change would be not remaking it in the Frostbite engine.
Yes, it makes beautiful environments, but that's all it was really made for.
If the admissions from the teams are any indication, they had to build everything else from scratch.
Leveling, skills, dialogue, choices, companions, combat...
All of that they had to basically reinvent the wheel.
It's not that Frostbite is a bad engine, it's that it's a rigid one.
Using Frostbite for Inquisition and Andromeda was basically the teams trying to take a train engine and retrofit it for off-road.
A train is designed to be used on tracks, a linear path.
I am impressed that they were able to make it work as well as they did, but the problem is that it didn't always work.
I find it telling that my favorite moments in those games were in places where it was more-or-less on rails, because it was able to play to the engine's strengths, or at least minimize its weaknesses.
--------
Perhaps I'm mistaken. I'm not a programmer, but every one I've talked to about this tells me the above common threads, so I'm going to take that as more probable than not.
I think if it's really that simple, then the changes I'd like to see are the pacing of combat.
Origins' combat works, but I like DA2 and Inquisition's better.
I'd also like to see auto-leveling of companions when you recruit them to be removed. Keep the option in the player's hands.
Other than that, I don't think there's much that really needs improving.
All the stuff I can think of has more to do with RL stuff that I have no say in, so I have no reason to talk about it.
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standardorbit
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR
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Post by Sweet FA on Feb 1, 2021 22:05:59 GMT
Minimal. Cosmetic Only. It's a bloody good game that only needs a fresh lick of paint (so to speak). However as a Celt I agree with previous posts that it would be nice if the celtic name pronunciation issue could be corrected, if possible. It's a real cringe moment for anybody with a celtic background.
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