KrrKs
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KrrKs on Aug 5, 2020 20:28:07 GMT
I've read a great deal about the development issues with Dragon Age Inquisition, and it's pretty clear that the developers had massive problems getting to Frostbyte engine to run an RPG-type game, as it was designed specifically for shooters, and lacked many of the necessary tools. The lack of tactics screen in Inquisition was likely a result of Frostbyte's limitations. Frosty Mod Manager allows only superficial modding of the game, mostly skins and more skins, along with some minor graphical tweaks or changes to spell damage. There are no proper modding tools for either Inquisition of Mass Effect Andromeda. No method of adding new content, or radically changing existing content or mechanics. By contrast DA:O has a huge range of mods available - everything from overhauls of the AI, new NPCs and creatures, right through to entirely new areas and quests. The thing is, neither would have Unreal Engine had tactics screen, it would had to be built too and all the other things to support RPG game, as with Eclipse Engine, but now they had a basis of an excellent visual quality already in the engine unlike the previous gen UE. Sure you might be right about the FMM and Frostbite modding, I havent checked that out much except used the mods. In the end I personally dont want or care to have new NPCs or creatures or areas as usually they are not up to quality etc. just some enhancements to original game behaviour like in Andromeda I use some fixpacks, like in ME1 too. Maybe KrrKs knows more about it?
Uhh, this is a can of worms, I'll try to add my ant perspective
I too heard that there were massive problems with Developing an RPG framework for Frostbite, and this most likely is not exaggerated. But the as Unicephalon pointed out, DA:O (I guess DA2 as well) were made using an old inhouse engine which showed its age already in DAO, honestly. The ME Trilogy games were made with Unreal 3, which had also reached end of life when DAI was started.
So, for Dragon age they had to switch to a new engine anyway, with all the problems such a transition creates. ME could potentially stayed with Unreal 4, but even that transition is not all that easy it seems (see e.g.,: Transferring from UE3 to UE4). So the worst case scenario is creating everything from scratch in all cases. And honestly, EAs idea to use one unified game engine that is maintained and developed by themselves for what they need it to be is a really good one. Each of their studious not only gets the knowledge about how that engine is used, but also how it works, each one adding functionality that can be used by all others. (Site-note: The software-house and project I work for and with tried to introduce something along those lines like ages ago and are enforcing it now. The benefit is real, but such transitions are never easy and we still have massive problems.)
As for 'made for shooters', well yes. Frostbite was made for shooters, Unreal as well. Than they added vehicles and larger and larger maps and nowadays those engines are not at all comparable to what they were when they were first made.
The lack of a real tactics screen and the reduced number of abilities is more likely a design choice than it is an effect of the engine the game runs on. While the same happened to MEA on that engine, the roots in that case are quite clearly the Multiplayer part of ME3. And as my fore poster pointed out, ME doesn't have a tactics screen either.
There are no proper official modding tools for any Mass Effect game and not for DAI, that is true. But as far as I know there are generally no modding tools for any EA game since DAO (The exception being CnC Remastered), and very very few modding tools or helpers for UE games. The one or two that I know are not fully fledged tools (to my understanding), but rather game assets for use in the Unreal map editor. ( One is the SDK for the fan made RenegadeX, the other evades my mind, there is a third still unreleased and unfinished fan made game that was inteded to come with full modding support). Some reasons for this were explained by Ask a Game Dev. That still sucks though. And yeah, that Frostbite is an EA exclusive engine means that there is much less official documentation available for outsiders, which in turn makes developing modding tools even more complicated.
The last few Frosty Tool versions actually allow creating and adding stuff in some limited fashion. (Most actual game and engine logic is still completely hidden or obscure though - at least in case of MEA)
But most mods for Bioware games and the most visible are always visual replacers (Different hair, new armour textures, shiny reshades, and the like). That is not because there are no other options (or at least no primarily), but because most of the fan base, and such most of the modders prefer those kind of mods over fully fledged content mods like EGM or Spectre or mods that simply add new items or features. Sure, actually adding new creatures or NPCs, new storylines, or maps is currently not possible for frostbite games (sadly). But I'm pretty sure that even for DA:O, with all the tools and experience available, the number of visual replacer mods vastly outnumbers the amount of other mods.
And lastly about load times: I don't think those depend on the engine that much. That DAI takes that much longer to load than DAO is simply (mostly) because there is that much more to load. The models have a vastly better qualities, so do the textures. Just look at the installation sizes!
So, TLDR: Frosty is probably hard to work with and extremely hard to mod. That is sadly true for most game engines, especially the ones with frostbites capabilities.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Aug 5, 2020 20:40:19 GMT
The thing is, neither would have Unreal Engine had tactics screen, it would had to be built too and all the other things to support RPG game, as with Eclipse Engine, but now they had a basis of an excellent visual quality already in the engine unlike the previous gen UE. Sure you might be right about the FMM and Frostbite modding, I havent checked that out much except used the mods. In the end I personally dont want or care to have new NPCs or creatures or areas as usually they are not up to quality etc. just some enhancements to original game behaviour like in Andromeda I use some fixpacks, like in ME1 too. Maybe KrrKs knows more about it?
So, for Dragon age they had to switch to a new engine anyway, with all the problems such a transition creates. ME could potentially stayed with Unreal 4, but even that transition is not all that easy it seems (see e.g.,: Transferring from UE3 to UE4). So the worst case scenario is creating everything from scratch in all cases. And honestly, EAs idea to use one unified game engine that is maintained and developed by themselves for what they need it to be is a really good one. Each of their studious not only gets the knowledge about how that engine is used, but also how it works, each one adding functionality that can be used by all others. (Site-note: The software-house and project I work for and with tried to introduce something along those lines like ages ago and are enforcing it now. The benefit is real, but such transitions are never easy and we still have massive problems.)
As for 'made for shooters', well yes. Frostbite was made for shooters, Unreal as well. Than they added vehicles and larger and larger maps and nowadays those engines are not at all comparable to what they were when they were first made.
The lack of a real tactics screen and the reduced number of abilities is more likely a design choice than it is an effect of the engine the game runs on. While the same happened to MEA on that engine, the roots in that case are quite clearly the Multiplayer part of ME3. And as my fore poster pointed out, ME doesn't have a tactics screen either.
And lastly about load times: I don't think those depend on the engine that much. That DAI takes that much longer to load than DAO is simply (mostly) because there is that much more to load. The models have a vastly better qualities, so do the textures. Just look at the installation sizes!
So, TLDR: Frosty is probably hard to work with and extremely hard to mod. That is sadly true for most game engines, especially the ones with frostbites capabilities.
Excellent writing. As one who has dabbled into old UE and some older engines, doing work in gaming industry I just also wanted to say the things "feeling simple, why dont they do it" are not usually that simple things to do.. especially transitioning from engine to engine might take a long long time to achieve parity what was built on top of previous one. Also it seems for every new part of the game series needs to have different UI, I understand this also but.. ah well as I said things are not so simple as they look outside when rageing 
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Post by Cantina on Sept 27, 2020 1:55:31 GMT
- give a voice to the Warden A voiced warden will make like 97% of all die-hard Origins fanboys explode.  With that being said, I would be in for it if it is done well. I would be apart of that 97%.
And a world of no to redoing this game in Frostbite. That engine can bite my hairy ass.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 27, 2020 3:12:56 GMT
A voiced warden will make like 97% of all die-hard Origins fanboys explode.  With that being said, I would be in for it if it is done well. I would be apart of that 97%.
And a world of no to redoing this game in Frostbite. That engine can bite my hairy ass.
I will be in the same camp. A voiced warden like a voiced Revan and Jedi Exile is weird as hell.
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Post by Dukemon on Oct 3, 2020 10:57:57 GMT
Yes, Origins does not need Frostbite. When they rereleasing Origins, they could change the Dark Ritual. The male part of this Ritual could get a Penile Fracture by a new % chance, to give it a bad taste for the Warden that is doing it with Morrigan. Wardens who are in a romance with Morrigan does not get it anyway. That would make this scene more funny. 
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Post by KaiserShep on Oct 4, 2020 5:07:22 GMT
The Warden's dialogue is totally unsuitable for a word for word voiced performance. It's just too short and direct most of the time, and the way dialogue progresses can be quite awkward when you're selecting the same sentence over and over again when you want to backtrack and explore a different discussion in that same instance. A lot of that awkwardness is obscured behind the protag's silence, and it's best just left that way.
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Post by Cantina on Oct 13, 2020 23:44:17 GMT
I would be apart of that 97%.
And a world of no to redoing this game in Frostbite. That engine can bite my hairy ass.
I will be in the same camp. A voiced warden like a voiced Revan and Jedi Exile is weird as hell. Exactly!
I really do not understand the NEED for a character to be voiced. Perhaps because I came from a different generation where video games were starting and for many years there was no character voice.
While Frostbite is a powerful tool it was not made to be used for games of the open zone or even open world type. Which makes sense as to why DAI was just awful. But I digress.
There were two noticeable large problems with the DAI. One, the dialogue would be reused here and there and two, the awful facial expressions. Sometimes the expression would not fit with what was going on and/or said. Other-times the expression was overdone.
As an example: Shortly after your arrival to Skyhold you can speak to Dorian. During this first conversation you can ask Dorian, "Who does the Imperium say started The Blight?" Ugh. I have no idea what it looks like on a male character but on my female character looks like she is mouthing an invisible apple <shivers>. Then when you speak to Varric after his fight with Cassandra, you can ask, "That got a little heated...." and she is doing this weird eye thing while staring at the ceiling.....uh...what?!!
Personally, I felt the expressions in DA2 were done rather well. OK, aside from that weird look Hawke does in the Deep Roads if you take Carver or Bethany with you.
So, again, having my Warden voiced, with piss poor expressions and the bonus of having some of her dialogue repeated....I'll pass.
DAO is the foundation of the DA series. Leave it be.
I don't need pretty graphics to make a game better.
What makes DAO a good game it was made before Bioware sold their souls to EA.
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Post by bolt on Oct 28, 2020 23:52:58 GMT
Fix the memory bleed issue. By the time I get to the Battle of Denerim, the game is chugging like it blew an ignition coil. I also wouldn't say no to restoring the cut origin stories.
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Post by correctamundo on Nov 2, 2020 10:55:21 GMT
Unmute the Warden.  Put a horn on the Qun. And fix the arms of my poor dwarves.
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Post by michaeln7 on Jan 31, 2021 5:10:21 GMT
"IF DAO WERE TO BE REMADE USING FROSTBITE, WHAT CHANGES WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE IN THE GAME?"
Well, the first change would be not remaking it in the Frostbite engine. Yes, it makes beautiful environments, but that's all it was really made for.
If the admissions from the teams are any indication, they had to build everything else from scratch. Leveling, skills, dialogue, choices, companions, combat... All of that they had to basically reinvent the wheel.
It's not that Frostbite is a bad engine, it's that it's a rigid one. Using Frostbite for Inquisition and Andromeda was basically the teams trying to take a train engine and retrofit it for off-road. A train is designed to be used on tracks, a linear path.
I am impressed that they were able to make it work as well as they did, but the problem is that it didn't always work.
I find it telling that my favorite moments in those games were in places where it was more-or-less on rails, because it was able to play to the engine's strengths, or at least minimize its weaknesses.
--------
Perhaps I'm mistaken. I'm not a programmer, but every one I've talked to about this tells me the above common threads, so I'm going to take that as more probable than not.
I think if it's really that simple, then the changes I'd like to see are the pacing of combat. Origins' combat works, but I like DA2 and Inquisition's better.
I'd also like to see auto-leveling of companions when you recruit them to be removed. Keep the option in the player's hands.
Other than that, I don't think there's much that really needs improving. All the stuff I can think of has more to do with RL stuff that I have no say in, so I have no reason to talk about it.
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Post by Sweet FA on Feb 1, 2021 22:05:59 GMT
Minimal. Cosmetic Only. It's a bloody good game that only needs a fresh lick of paint (so to speak). However as a Celt I agree with previous posts that it would be nice if the celtic name pronunciation issue could be corrected, if possible. It's a real cringe moment for anybody with a celtic background.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by TheAntiSocialFatMan on May 3, 2021 23:52:23 GMT
I'd want a lot of the dialogue options taken out. NPCs are more like vending machines, spewing lore at you with a game of 50 questions, most of which end up being superfluous. Pretty sure Alistair told me the Archdemon was a dragon 5 times before the party camp scene where the Warden is shocked to dicover the Archdemon is...A DRAGON!  111!!!1 The game would just flow so much better if 3/4 of the dialogue options were removed entirely. But other than that, I'd just want a few other things, designs and aethetics reworks to be more congruent with the rest of the series, the design of the elves and Elven/Dalish armours, Templars etc as well as making all the bug fixing mods a part of the base game.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2021 16:51:13 GMT
The dialog being superfluous is exactly what illustrates this game was a labor of love by the developers.
The amount of lore in these games is quite something, and it develops from game to game, but.... It is almost all there in DAO already. I am about level 13 right now, still 3 treaties to do (just finished Brecilian Forest) - I have been kind of educated all over again, and of course the context of the latter games adds so much... In my headcanon, Dog pissed on the Fen'Harel statue before we left, because he's a good boy. I named him Budder.
As for topic - no no no no no no. This game should never be remade. The only acceptable path for a remaster of this game is to also remaster the engine.
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Post by ovinnik on Jul 21, 2021 9:01:40 GMT
We're obviously dealing with a never-ever-not-in-a-million-years scenario here, but: Better structured dialogue trees. I can take or leave the dialogue wheel of the later games, but actually knowing which option advances the conversation and which is for enquiries is extremely convenient.
I wouldn't mind a voiced Warden, in theory, though the dialogue would then require an even larger overhaul and the costs would obviously be astronomical. I do reckon that turning the voice off would be a thing regardless.
Official-ish modding support would be nice, in whatever capacity, but Frosty scratches that itch well enough.
Now, some points against. (Other than nostalgia, which is always a factor.)
Huge maps à la DA:I. There, they've turned what would otherwise be a tight narrative into some sort of simulator for aimlessly strolling about. Real life does a good enough job of that; the franchise certainly doesn't need it.
Animations. They're doing motion capture for DA4, and I sincerely hope that will extend to basic walking. And posture. In just about every cutscene in DA:I, any Inquisitor who's not a male human looks ready to run off and join a clan of enterprising gorillas. Can't exactly blame them for wanting to leave it all behind, but it does take away from the "accidental fantasy Jesus" experience. I've no idea why animations have turned out so much worse in Frostbite, as a whole lot of them are recycled anyway.
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Post by ergates on Oct 19, 2021 16:47:47 GMT
'd also like to see auto-leveling of companions when you recruit them to be removed. Keep the option in the player's hands This is why it's so good to have access to quality mods, not just skins or damage tweaks. The PC version of Origins can make use of the Respec Mod, which for me, is an absolutely essential addition to the game and one I'd never want to play without. The default builds for companions are horribly optimised. Some are given crippling over-specialisations, others try to be jacks-of-all-trades. The respec mod allows me to build my companions the way I want to build them, right from scratch and I'd hate to be without it - one more reason why I'd not be very interested in a Frostbite version of the game.
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Post by swag1ord on Nov 13, 2021 2:54:49 GMT
Dunno about Frosty...
bUt I wAnT mY sEr CaUtHrIeN rOmAnCe.
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ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
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Post by mousestalker on Nov 13, 2021 15:35:20 GMT
Dunno about Frosty... bUt I wAnT mY sEr CaUtHrIeN rOmAnCe. Why do you want to romance a corpse? Ew.
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Post by swag1ord on Nov 13, 2021 15:46:17 GMT
Dunno about Frosty... bUt I wAnT mY sEr CaUtHrIeN rOmAnCe. Why do you want to romance a corpse? Ew. Hey, 1st: no kink shaming And secondly, there's a way to not kill her. Unless your canon story is to always kill her twice for 2 Summer Swords 
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Post by andydandymandy on Dec 1, 2021 2:11:00 GMT
Would it be possible to use Unreal 4 to remake it instead of Frostbite?
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Exile Isan
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You must gather your party before venturing forth.
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Post by Exile Isan on Dec 14, 2021 3:22:24 GMT
I'd just want it to look as pretty as DAI does. I just finished a playthrough of DAI and started a playthrough of DA2 and I can't get over how ugly it and DAO look in comparison.
And maybe speed up combat as a mage just a tiny bit.
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 15, 2021 13:44:19 GMT
I rather they not remake the game. Its too easy to overlook what made the game work in its day and then thing that were there and accepted might not be wanted anymore and since its a new release the nostalgia won't allow players to overlook it.
The only thing I want for Dragon Age: Origins is to have a new installer/launcher for Windows. I have encountered problems with that to the point I have stopped trying to play the game. Between issues with Windows Services to authorization of DLC sometimes taking my entire session I have time for I just gave up.
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serza
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
13152
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Post by Serza on Jan 4, 2022 11:14:39 GMT
Well, I finished the base game yesterday, and considering the game was chugging... (technically, it is my PC, the game just has no idea what to do with an R7 5800 and a 3070)
I would optimization for our current-day PCs. Give it prettier graphics.
Don't you DARE touch the story, the characters and the gameplay!
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inherit
The homeostatic problem-solving structure
8860
0
Apr 26, 2022 11:22:31 GMT
8,202
Unicephalon 40-D
An unknown possibly hostile flotilla detected at eight hundred astronomical units from the sun!
4,658
Jun 29, 2017 12:57:11 GMT
June 2017
legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jan 4, 2022 11:24:48 GMT
A lot of people think the graphics were dark and splotchy because of the "darker style". No, they were such because there was no better realtime visual 3D representation back then available (HDR was new and fex. proper Deferred lighting methods were just born. The engine did not have these)
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inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
Sept 30, 2023 2:55:00 GMT
23,637
themikefest
14,542
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
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Post by themikefest on Feb 23, 2023 2:55:25 GMT
I'm currently playing DAO. I would change the sibling to a female if playing as a male noble. The sister is married with a child about to go off to fight for the king while hubby sticks around. At the end, the sister is seen talking to her brother who stopped the blight.
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fairdragon
N3
 
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 774 Likes: 304
inherit
11611
0
Sept 15, 2023 5:41:03 GMT
304
fairdragon
774
Jul 30, 2020 17:14:13 GMT
July 2020
fairdragon
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
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Post by fairdragon on Feb 27, 2023 13:54:10 GMT
As we only can get a remake, because the engine is too old. I want them to ad some things, but i wouldn't buy it if they chance the combat.
I would like to have: - 9 Companions + Dog (mage: Morrigan, Wynne and ?. rough: Leliana, zevran and ?. Warrior: Alistair, Sten and ?.) - 6 romance (Alister/Morrigan straight, Zevran/? bi and Leliana lesbian + new gay) So we need 1 more Character. - improve and differentiate romance cutscenes. - improve camp system - put all DLCs which are not standalone in the game. - put a human not noble origin in the game - consequences where you go first (the other suffer while you help someone else) - enemies should grow with your level (so that what you decide to do first is not too difficult.) - and please give a quick solution for the mage tower (i hate the fate thing).
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