Sanunes
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
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sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 9, 2019 20:29:12 GMT
I really don't care what direction BioWare decides to go, except for trying to appease people instead of making a good story. Andromeda to me was BioWare trying to appease people by focusing on what they consider the best aspects of Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3 and stumbling on the overall product because they were focused more the three elements instead of the final product. How are you going to move products if you don't appease your customers? Like trying to sell yogurt that causes butt hole inflammation. As good as your yogurt is, nobody wants butt hole inflammation. I mean, okay, chances are some people will, but those people aren't enough to sustain your yogurt business. The problem is, even if you change your product, how many people will return to taste your next yogurt? What if the new yogurt, instead of butt hole inflammation, causes urine infection? You probably didn't develop your next yogurt with that in mind, but maybe it will? And how can you sell it to people with assurances that it won't cause anything this time? Or what if they found a different yogurt that they are satisfied with, in the meantime? Now I know what you're going to say; "food analogy". Fine, change yogurt for a weed whacker that kills your grass, after trimming it or causes parasite infestations. I don't care. It's all interchangeable and it's not the point. The point is customer satisfaction and trust between the customer and the company and now both of these are at an all time low for Bioware. In my business, when our image is hurt in a similar way, I have to, figuratively, perform oral favours to restore our image and relationship. This is standard practice for all companies across the board. EA and their studios stubbornly refuse to do anything of the sort, receive backlash and then hope through whatever other means to fix their image. Currently, DICE is hurting with Battlefield V development crumbling in a way similar to Anthem's, though far later in their roadmap than Anthem did. Battlefield V is currently in a steady decline, as evident by the game's subreddit and various media outlets reporting on it. And this is on top of Battlefront 2's debacle. Bioware faced similar uproar back when ME3 was released and has fallen to worse times in recent years. Do you think people will be lining up for the next Bioware title, after all this, without figuratively performing oral favours to the fanbase? And how do you do that? By giving them the same thing that failed them last time? No, they're going to think "urine infection". You'll need to give them something that has pull, you need a hook. The only hook they have is Shepard. They can choose not to do that, but they will not benefit from it. I don't care if someone uses analogy. Instead of food I am going to use something more BioWare related. Mass Effect: Andromeda how many people online were clamoring for things like "open world", "exploration of Mass Effect 1", "characters of Mass Effect 2", or "combat of Mass Effect 3". BioWare listened to that feedback and as you said made a bad game. People don't know what they want and frankly listening to all the garbage online with people that claim they know what BioWare should and should not do and for each of those issues there are groups of people advocating for both sides of the argument. No matter what BioWare does in those regards they lose. The funny thing is if you look at the more recent games aside from Anthem I have seen more player feedback influence those games and people keep claiming they are on a decline, but the ones people cherish are the ones where BioWare made the game they want to. There might have been light influences, but they didn't give the impression of catering to a crowd of people that claim they know what will make the game better. Edit: Just thinking back BioWare also did something that seems to cater to the internet wishlists too with Dragon Age: Inquisition with how the game was fundamentally designed when at one point they were trying to sell the idea of that you could beat the game in 20 hours or 100 hours. Back then people were always claiming how they needed a game to be over 100 hours in length so it was a worthwhile purchase. Now if you played the game the 100 hour way if felt lifeless and boring, but the game was a lot more enjoyable for me if you did the 20 hour path where you stuck to the critical mission path. So they tried to design a game with two fundamental opposing ideals to justify what seemed to be a popular opinion on what a game should be.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2019 0:52:58 GMT
You're wrong there - I actually prefer a bullshit-free death for Shepard. A worthy one. I rather think Destroy is a popular ending because it's less silly than blue and much less silly than green. That one is full it. No one said you had to choose control or synthesis. You weren't guaranteed a worthy death.
As stated earlier in the game, some die in battle, some die in their sleep, and some die for no reason at all.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 10, 2019 6:31:39 GMT
You're wrong there - I actually prefer a bullshit-free death for Shepard. A worthy one. I rather think Destroy is a popular ending because it's less silly than blue and much less silly than green. That one is full it. No one said you had to choose control or synthesis. You weren't guaranteed a worthy death.
As stated earlier in the game, some die in battle, some die in their sleep, and some die for no reason at all.
Ye, and that is the problem. I can have ordinary things every day. That's not what I play a game for.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 10, 2019 11:34:53 GMT
people online were clamoring for things like "open world", "exploration of Mass Effect 1" The exploration part wasn't bad, but they botched the "open world" implementation, because they wasted way too many years trying to make a system that wouldn't work. So a bad implementation of an otherwise good system isn't on the fanbase. "characters of Mass Effect 2" Suffice to say that none of the characters where up to the standard of ME2. ME2's crew was, by large consensus, the most well received crew in any game in the franchise. Which caused a lot of problems, when ME3 launched and players found out that they were all, for the most part, sidelined. Again, that Bioware tried and failed isn't on the players for wanting something that they liked, back. As a fellow user in another discussion board told me "Andromeda's writing feels like an AI approximation of sentient interaction". Don't blame the fanbase for Bioware's shortcomings. The funny thing is if you look at the more recent games aside from Anthem I have seen more player feedback influence those games and people keep claiming they are on a decline, but the ones people cherish are the ones where BioWare made the game they want to Would you say that about Dragon Age 2? ME3? Dragon Age 2 sold less than Origins, for Bioware doing what they wanted to and ME3 caused ... well, we all know that story. Again, bad implementation of in game mechanics are not the fault of the fanbase. If there are other studios that do a better job at combining these mechanics, people will not buy Bioware games. There is such a thing as customer dissatisfaction and you can choose to ignore it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it isn't damaging to your company. Do you think people should buy whatever, even if they don't like it? Just thinking back BioWare also did something that seems to cater to the internet wishlists too with Dragon Age: Inquisition with how the game was fundamentally designed when at one point they were trying to sell the idea of that you could beat the game in 20 hours or 100 hours. Back then people were always claiming how they needed a game to be over 100 hours in length so it was a worthwhile purchase. Now if you played the game the 100 hour way if felt lifeless and boring, but the game was a lot more enjoyable for me if you did the 20 hour path where you stuck to the critical mission path. So they tried to design a game with two fundamental opposing ideals to justify what seemed to be a popular opinion on what a game should be. I gotta say, though, it wasn't a bad idea. Assassins Creed Odyssey does a fantastic job at that. It has its main story, it has side activities and side quests and I've spent over 200 hours in a single playthrough and done multiple playthroughs by now, which equates to several hundred hours of gameplay. On a single game. And for Inquisition, I gave up around the 30 hour mark and didn't want to star the game ever again. So the execution of something may leave a lot to be desired, from title to title. Again, it is not the fanbase's fault for wanting something, but it is the developer's problem to implement it correctly. So far, the only thing you've proven is that Bioware is doing a terrible job at things other studios have already figured out. Doesn't look like the fanbase's problem for wanting things, when other developers can provide them with that. It is Bioware's problem to remain relative and competitive in the market to retain that fanbase. If they can't do it, then they should look for an other way to remain relevant. Like lowering the prices of their games, or stop being so arrogant about their products, especially when they fail to meet people's expectations. Or make a game that - Isn't open world - Has no long time player engagement - No dialogues/dialogue options - No side activities/quests - No replayability Doesn't seem like a game with anything a triple A developer would make in 2019, let alone 2020, if they can't deliver on any of these fronts. So why would I pre-order this game for $60? Why would anyone pre-order this game for $60? It doesn't seem to have any of the things a gamer is looking for today. Seems like a very niche title, to me.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Just a flip of the coin.
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sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 11, 2019 5:57:37 GMT
people online were clamoring for things like "open world", "exploration of Mass Effect 1" The exploration part wasn't bad, but they botched the "open world" implementation, because they wasted way too many years trying to make a system that wouldn't work. So a bad implementation of an otherwise good system isn't on the fanbase. "characters of Mass Effect 2" Suffice to say that none of the characters where up to the standard of ME2. ME2's crew was, by large consensus, the most well received crew in any game in the franchise. Which caused a lot of problems, when ME3 launched and players found out that they were all, for the most part, sidelined. Again, that Bioware tried and failed isn't on the players for wanting something that they liked, back. As a fellow user in another discussion board told me "Andromeda's writing feels like an AI approximation of sentient interaction". Don't blame the fanbase for Bioware's shortcomings. The funny thing is if you look at the more recent games aside from Anthem I have seen more player feedback influence those games and people keep claiming they are on a decline, but the ones people cherish are the ones where BioWare made the game they want to Would you say that about Dragon Age 2? ME3? Dragon Age 2 sold less than Origins, for Bioware doing what they wanted to and ME3 caused ... well, we all know that story. Again, bad implementation of in game mechanics are not the fault of the fanbase. If there are other studios that do a better job at combining these mechanics, people will not buy Bioware games. There is such a thing as customer dissatisfaction and you can choose to ignore it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it isn't damaging to your company. Do you think people should buy whatever, even if they don't like it? Just thinking back BioWare also did something that seems to cater to the internet wishlists too with Dragon Age: Inquisition with how the game was fundamentally designed when at one point they were trying to sell the idea of that you could beat the game in 20 hours or 100 hours. Back then people were always claiming how they needed a game to be over 100 hours in length so it was a worthwhile purchase. Now if you played the game the 100 hour way if felt lifeless and boring, but the game was a lot more enjoyable for me if you did the 20 hour path where you stuck to the critical mission path. So they tried to design a game with two fundamental opposing ideals to justify what seemed to be a popular opinion on what a game should be. I gotta say, though, it wasn't a bad idea. Assassins Creed Odyssey does a fantastic job at that. It has its main story, it has side activities and side quests and I've spent over 200 hours in a single playthrough and done multiple playthroughs by now, which equates to several hundred hours of gameplay. On a single game. And for Inquisition, I gave up around the 30 hour mark and didn't want to star the game ever again. So the execution of something may leave a lot to be desired, from title to title. Again, it is not the fanbase's fault for wanting something, but it is the developer's problem to implement it correctly. So far, the only thing you've proven is that Bioware is doing a terrible job at things other studios have already figured out. Doesn't look like the fanbase's problem for wanting things, when other developers can provide them with that. It is Bioware's problem to remain relative and competitive in the market to retain that fanbase. If they can't do it, then they should look for an other way to remain relevant. Like lowering the prices of their games, or stop being so arrogant about their products, especially when they fail to meet people's expectations. Or make a game that - Isn't open world - Has no long time player engagement - No dialogues/dialogue options - No side activities/quests - No replayability Doesn't seem like a game with anything a triple A developer would make in 2019, let alone 2020, if they can't deliver on any of these fronts. So why would I pre-order this game for $60? Why would anyone pre-order this game for $60? It doesn't seem to have any of the things a gamer is looking for today. Seems like a very niche title, to me. The thing about the characters with Andromeda is that yse they might have felt that way, but its still that BioWare didn't focus on that writing because they were trying to juggle all the other aspects of the game. Go back to Mass Effect 2 and they didn't have the exploration and the combat was a lot more bland for there was such as small variance for weapons, armor, and skills. Which were all improved in Mass Effect 3, but the characters suffered in Mass Effect 3 because at least in my opinion every returning character had to have an alternate because of the backlash when BioWare said not all characters would return. Originally it was said they were only going to have a handful of characters return from Mass Effect 2 due to everyone being able to die, but after non-stop pleading/requests to have everyone's personal favorite character return it was announced all characters would return. I personally enjoyed Dragon Age 2 aside from the "sameness" that the dungeons and Kirkwall gave me, I have about the same amount of time in Dragon Age 2 that I do with Dragon Age: Inquisition. The different things they did with the game still felt like it was all there by design and not just added because there were a lot of requests to fit a certain role. Even if there were people talking about what they would have liked to see changed and tweaks were made because of that. Just because a game sold less copies doesn't mean it is less profitable either, for Dragon Age: Origins was in development for six to seven years and Dragon Age 2 suffered under EA (this is probably one of the very few instances I put the majority of blame on EA) for a rushed schedule. It isn't a bad idea to have a game that can have a variable length, but with BioWare people focus on the story and I think that approach doesn't work in a BioWare game for it feels like you have the "A" content and then the "B" content. To me its having the content and systems fit the narrative of the game and not just placing different things into the game simply because it was requested. I am not blaming the fans for wanting something added to the game and that isn't where my problem is. Its BioWare just throwing out the baby with the bathwater and putting everything requested into the game. One of the reasons why I think Mass Effect 3 did as well as it did was because of how close it was to Mass Effect 2 so people went into the game having an idea what to expect. Using a movie analogy with the MCU I think that is why movies do so well in that shared universe because people have been able to know what to expect in those movies, but something like Spider-Man or the X-Men movies are similar to what BioWare does because they pretty much start everything new each attempt. For instance with Andromeda if they just focused on making combat similar to prior Mass Effect games such keeping the classes and not having the bloated crafting system while focusing on the character content I think that would have been a better approach. The problem came where so many things that were either fan favorites or things that people have been wanting to see for such a long time were all thrown into a single game it was just bound for problems. Then they could have made that game well and then expanded what they were doing while keeping the basis of Andromeda the same and added deeper exploration in the next game. The problem is a lot of those things that you listed still fall into Andromeda and a lesser extent towards the complaints against Inquisition. For I can see what you are listed can be used against Andromeda and Inquisition so what is the point of implementing what people are wanting if they are upset about those things maybe in a different way and on top of that upset that they feel BioWare abandoned its roots? For how many people are currently saying the way BioWare is currently releasing their games isn't worth the $60 price tag? -Not open world can translate to boring empty world. -No long time player engagement can be the people that stopped playing the game after 30 hours. -No dialogues/dialogue options could also be the bad dialogue like you said felt written by AI. -No side activities/quests sounds pretty close to the "worthless MMO fetch quest" complaints. -No replayability again people stopped playing before finishing the game a first time. Its all about making a balanced game and not just throwing everything under the sun that people want to see in the game. I think Mass Effect 3 evolved nicely from Mass Effect 2 because they heard the complaints, but instead of throwing out the systems they tweaked what was there. I still think even with Mass Effect 3 they listened too much when it came to returning characters for a lot of the "lesser" returns were only there because BioWare wanted to give everyone their favorite to return. So characters like Jack or Grunt I doubt were originally going to return and it wound have been the crew and probably Miranda were the ones to return. Just to boil it down for unfortunately I ramble when responding to broken up responses. Its not the fans fault, but BioWare is giving me the impressions that listens too closely to what fans want. If you want to use a more modern example it would be the same as CDPR giving in and putting third person view back into the game because that seems to be the most common fault people have with Cyberpunk right now. I am pretty sure it can be found from other developers ignoring what people are requesting frequently because they want to make their game feel cohesive. BioWare can make adjustments to make the game better, but just adding features because they are requested I think is a bad idea it needs to fit into the story they are trying to tell not just being there because its a wanted feature. Its like Dragon Age: Inquisition on the PS3/360 BioWare got flak for the quality of game, but they kept that because they originally announced the games for those consoles. Now do I think we might have gotten a game closer to what was previewed before that if they cut support for those games. So what should have BioWare done and its a no-win situation for they picked do something for the players by keeping it on the older consoles or do they develop for the new consoles and have all the features they wanted. My being selfish I rather they have a better experience by ignoring what they thought players would like and released it for the newer consoles and given enough warning that it wouldn't be on the older hardware. Now I know people probably preferred that BioWare released the game on the older hardware and I am pretty sure there are people that would have wanted both.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 11, 2019 16:23:05 GMT
The exploration part wasn't bad, but they botched the "open world" implementation, because they wasted way too many years trying to make a system that wouldn't work. So a bad implementation of an otherwise good system isn't on the fanbase. Suffice to say that none of the characters where up to the standard of ME2. ME2's crew was, by large consensus, the most well received crew in any game in the franchise. Which caused a lot of problems, when ME3 launched and players found out that they were all, for the most part, sidelined. Again, that Bioware tried and failed isn't on the players for wanting something that they liked, back. As a fellow user in another discussion board told me "Andromeda's writing feels like an AI approximation of sentient interaction". Don't blame the fanbase for Bioware's shortcomings. Would you say that about Dragon Age 2? ME3? Dragon Age 2 sold less than Origins, for Bioware doing what they wanted to and ME3 caused ... well, we all know that story. Again, bad implementation of in game mechanics are not the fault of the fanbase. If there are other studios that do a better job at combining these mechanics, people will not buy Bioware games. There is such a thing as customer dissatisfaction and you can choose to ignore it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it isn't damaging to your company. Do you think people should buy whatever, even if they don't like it? I gotta say, though, it wasn't a bad idea. Assassins Creed Odyssey does a fantastic job at that. It has its main story, it has side activities and side quests and I've spent over 200 hours in a single playthrough and done multiple playthroughs by now, which equates to several hundred hours of gameplay. On a single game. And for Inquisition, I gave up around the 30 hour mark and didn't want to star the game ever again. So the execution of something may leave a lot to be desired, from title to title. Again, it is not the fanbase's fault for wanting something, but it is the developer's problem to implement it correctly. So far, the only thing you've proven is that Bioware is doing a terrible job at things other studios have already figured out. Doesn't look like the fanbase's problem for wanting things, when other developers can provide them with that. It is Bioware's problem to remain relative and competitive in the market to retain that fanbase. If they can't do it, then they should look for an other way to remain relevant. Like lowering the prices of their games, or stop being so arrogant about their products, especially when they fail to meet people's expectations. Or make a game that - Isn't open world - Has no long time player engagement - No dialogues/dialogue options - No side activities/quests - No replayability Doesn't seem like a game with anything a triple A developer would make in 2019, let alone 2020, if they can't deliver on any of these fronts. So why would I pre-order this game for $60? Why would anyone pre-order this game for $60? It doesn't seem to have any of the things a gamer is looking for today. Seems like a very niche title, to me. The thing about the characters with Andromeda is that yse they might have felt that way, but its still that BioWare didn't focus on that writing because they were trying to juggle all the other aspects of the game. Go back to Mass Effect 2 and they didn't have the exploration and the combat was a lot more bland for there was such as small variance for weapons, armor, and skills. Which were all improved in Mass Effect 3, but the characters suffered in Mass Effect 3 because at least in my opinion every returning character had to have an alternate because of the backlash when BioWare said not all characters would return. Originally it was said they were only going to have a handful of characters return from Mass Effect 2 due to everyone being able to die, but after non-stop pleading/requests to have everyone's personal favorite character return it was announced all characters would return. I personally enjoyed Dragon Age 2 aside from the "sameness" that the dungeons and Kirkwall gave me, I have about the same amount of time in Dragon Age 2 that I do with Dragon Age: Inquisition. The different things they did with the game still felt like it was all there by design and not just added because there were a lot of requests to fit a certain role. Even if there were people talking about what they would have liked to see changed and tweaks were made because of that. Just because a game sold less copies doesn't mean it is less profitable either, for Dragon Age: Origins was in development for six to seven years and Dragon Age 2 suffered under EA (this is probably one of the very few instances I put the majority of blame on EA) for a rushed schedule. It isn't a bad idea to have a game that can have a variable length, but with BioWare people focus on the story and I think that approach doesn't work in a BioWare game for it feels like you have the "A" content and then the "B" content. To me its having the content and systems fit the narrative of the game and not just placing different things into the game simply because it was requested. I am not blaming the fans for wanting something added to the game and that isn't where my problem is. Its BioWare just throwing out the baby with the bathwater and putting everything requested into the game. One of the reasons why I think Mass Effect 3 did as well as it did was because of how close it was to Mass Effect 2 so people went into the game having an idea what to expect. Using a movie analogy with the MCU I think that is why movies do so well in that shared universe because people have been able to know what to expect in those movies, but something like Spider-Man or the X-Men movies are similar to what BioWare does because they pretty much start everything new each attempt. For instance with Andromeda if they just focused on making combat similar to prior Mass Effect games such keeping the classes and not having the bloated crafting system while focusing on the character content I think that would have been a better approach. The problem came where so many things that were either fan favorites or things that people have been wanting to see for such a long time were all thrown into a single game it was just bound for problems. Then they could have made that game well and then expanded what they were doing while keeping the basis of Andromeda the same and added deeper exploration in the next game. The problem is a lot of those things that you listed still fall into Andromeda and a lesser extent towards the complaints against Inquisition. For I can see what you are listed can be used against Andromeda and Inquisition so what is the point of implementing what people are wanting if they are upset about those things maybe in a different way and on top of that upset that they feel BioWare abandoned its roots? For how many people are currently saying the way BioWare is currently releasing their games isn't worth the $60 price tag? -Not open world can translate to boring empty world. -No long time player engagement can be the people that stopped playing the game after 30 hours. -No dialogues/dialogue options could also be the bad dialogue like you said felt written by AI. -No side activities/quests sounds pretty close to the "worthless MMO fetch quest" complaints. -No replayability again people stopped playing before finishing the game a first time. Its all about making a balanced game and not just throwing everything under the sun that people want to see in the game. I think Mass Effect 3 evolved nicely from Mass Effect 2 because they heard the complaints, but instead of throwing out the systems they tweaked what was there. I still think even with Mass Effect 3 they listened too much when it came to returning characters for a lot of the "lesser" returns were only there because BioWare wanted to give everyone their favorite to return. So characters like Jack or Grunt I doubt were originally going to return and it wound have been the crew and probably Miranda were the ones to return. Just to boil it down for unfortunately I ramble when responding to broken up responses. Its not the fans fault, but BioWare is giving me the impressions that listens too closely to what fans want. If you want to use a more modern example it would be the same as CDPR giving in and putting third person view back into the game because that seems to be the most common fault people have with Cyberpunk right now. I am pretty sure it can be found from other developers ignoring what people are requesting frequently because they want to make their game feel cohesive. BioWare can make adjustments to make the game better, but just adding features because they are requested I think is a bad idea it needs to fit into the story they are trying to tell not just being there because its a wanted feature. Its like Dragon Age: Inquisition on the PS3/360 BioWare got flak for the quality of game, but they kept that because they originally announced the games for those consoles. Now do I think we might have gotten a game closer to what was previewed before that if they cut support for those games. So what should have BioWare done and its a no-win situation for they picked do something for the players by keeping it on the older consoles or do they develop for the new consoles and have all the features they wanted. My being selfish I rather they have a better experience by ignoring what they thought players would like and released it for the newer consoles and given enough warning that it wouldn't be on the older hardware. Now I know people probably preferred that BioWare released the game on the older hardware and I am pretty sure there are people that would have wanted both. I agree that some of the characters in ME3 felt tacked on but overall I felt it was handled well. Andromeda well everyone here knows I liked it and felt it overall was handled well. The open world can use a bit of tweaking however.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 11, 2019 16:40:30 GMT
Listening to fans is a double edge sword. We have good and bad ideas. Bioware should take the fan's ideas that make sense for their story.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 18:48:42 GMT
They should take everything the fans say with a grain of salt.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 11, 2019 19:38:12 GMT
I agree that some of the characters in ME3 felt tacked on but overall I felt it was handled well. Andromeda well everyone here knows I liked it and felt it overall was handled well. The open world can use a bit of tweaking however. My biggest problem with ME3's characters is the unknown sacrifices they made to have all the characters return for I think all of them had an alternate created if they died in Mass Effect 2. How much of the design for the returning characters lost some of their more unique style or were written in a way they could fit into a box that could be replaced by a new character. For a lot of them felt a lot different between The Citadel DLC and the main game.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 21:35:54 GMT
I agree that some of the characters in ME3 felt tacked on but overall I felt it was handled well. Andromeda well everyone here knows I liked it and felt it overall was handled well. The open world can use a bit of tweaking however. My biggest problem with ME3's characters is the unknown sacrifices they made to have all the characters return for I think all of them had an alternate created if they died in Mass Effect 2. How much of the design for the returning characters lost some of their more unique style or were written in a way they could fit into a box that could be replaced by a new character. For a lot of them felt a lot different between The Citadel DLC and the main game. I actually don't think there were alternates literally created for all of them. For example, if Miranda died then Oriana (who was a ME2 character already) takes on the role of letting Shepard know what's going on, but no one takes Miranda's place and Shepard faces Henry Lawson directly. Most notably, if Thane is already dead, then Bailey is the one who gets the message out about the Citadel coup and Shepard has to deal with Leng himself/herself with the consequence that the Salarian councillor dies.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 11, 2019 21:38:48 GMT
I agree that some of the characters in ME3 felt tacked on but overall I felt it was handled well. Andromeda well everyone here knows I liked it and felt it overall was handled well. The open world can use a bit of tweaking however. My biggest problem with ME3's characters is the unknown sacrifices they made to have all the characters return for I think all of them had an alternate created if they died in Mass Effect 2. How much of the design for the returning characters lost some of their more unique style or were written in a way they could fit into a box that could be replaced by a new character. For a lot of them felt a lot different between The Citadel DLC and the main game. They should have cut the number of companions in half for ME2, and save some of them for ME3. That many killable characters only added to ME3's problems.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 11, 2019 21:44:17 GMT
My biggest problem with ME3's characters is the unknown sacrifices they made to have all the characters return for I think all of them had an alternate created if they died in Mass Effect 2. How much of the design for the returning characters lost some of their more unique style or were written in a way they could fit into a box that could be replaced by a new character. For a lot of them felt a lot different between The Citadel DLC and the main game. I actually don't think there were alternates literally created for all of them. For example, if Miranda died then Oriana (who was a ME2 character already) takes on the role of letting Shepard know what's going on, but no one takes Miranda's place and Shepard faces Henry Lawson directly. Most notably, if Thane is already dead, then Bailey is the one who gets the message out about the Citadel coup and Shepard has to deal with Leng himself/herself with the consequence that the Salarian councillor dies. Well I can see where this can work. Also Keep in mind that I preferred that Henry Lawson to have much bigger role than he had in ME3 as an over-arching Villain. A Earlier fight that has Shepard vs Kai Leng that shows not implied that Kai Leng as a legit assassin/rival to Shepard. In Short that Someone that can and has the skill to defeat Shepard without plot armor, that should have been Kai Leng. And for the pure humor, having Shepard to out phantom Kai Leng.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 22:02:25 GMT
I actually don't think there were alternates literally created for all of them. For example, if Miranda died then Oriana (who was a ME2 character already) takes on the role of letting Shepard know what's going on, but no one takes Miranda's place and Shepard faces Henry Lawson directly. Most notably, if Thane is already dead, then Bailey is the one who gets the message out about the Citadel coup and Shepard has to deal with Leng himself/herself with the consequence that the Salarian councillor dies. Well I can see where this can work. Also Keep in mind that I preferred that Henry Lawson to have much bigger role than he had in ME3 as an over-arching Villain. A Earlier fight that has Shepard vs Kai Leng that shows not implied that Kai Leng as a legit assassin/rival to Shepard. In Short that Someone that can and has the skill to defeat Shepard without plot armor, that should have been Kai Leng. And for the pure humor, having Shepard to out phantom Kai Leng. Sorry, you've lost me. This is the way it actually was in ME3. They made contingencies for any of the characters who could have died, but they just didn't write in a replacement for every one of them. The quest changed and there were consequences for the ME1 or ME2 character not being there, but the new characters retained their roles within the quests. Jacob, for example, was not replaced by Bryn in that Bryn still played her role with Jacob there. If Jacob was gone, Shepard had to work to convince her to be let inside the facility. Only one that I can think of got a straight up replacement. If Legion was dead, the Geth VI took on his role. If Legion was there, there was no Geth VI in the game.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 11, 2019 22:05:09 GMT
I actually don't think there were alternates literally created for all of them. For example, if Miranda died then Oriana (who was a ME2 character already) takes on the role of letting Shepard know what's going on, but no one takes Miranda's place and Shepard faces Henry Lawson directly. I would be curious how Oriana knew Shepard's email onboard the SR2 especially if Shepard never helped her sister on loyalty mission. I will say one good thing, and Phantom would like, if he doesn't know already, depending on the dialogue choices, Henry Lawson can live. True, if Kirrahe didn't survive ME1. Otherwise Kirrahe will die protecting the councilor.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 22:12:54 GMT
I actually don't think there were alternates literally created for all of them. For example, if Miranda died then Oriana (who was a ME2 character already) takes on the role of letting Shepard know what's going on, but no one takes Miranda's place and Shepard faces Henry Lawson directly. I would be curious how Oriana knew Shepard's email onboard the SR2 especially if Shepard never helped her sister on loyalty mission. I will say one good thing, and Phantom would like, if he doesn't know already, depending on the dialogue choices, Henry Lawson can live. True, if Kirrahe didn't survive ME1. Otherwise Kirrahe will die protecting the councilor. Yes, I forgot about Kirrahe living... goes to show that my Renegades who let Thane die in ME2 generally also let Kirrahe die in ME1.
Oriana pulled Shepard's email from Facebook for all I care. It's too small a detail to worry about, IMO.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Sept 12, 2019 1:49:30 GMT
My biggest problem with ME3's characters is the unknown sacrifices they made to have all the characters return for I think all of them had an alternate created if they died in Mass Effect 2. How much of the design for the returning characters lost some of their more unique style or were written in a way they could fit into a box that could be replaced by a new character. For a lot of them felt a lot different between The Citadel DLC and the main game. They should have cut the number of companions in half for ME2, and save some of them for ME3. That many killable characters only added to ME3's problems. Yeah I will admit that they should have had less squade mates in ME2. I don't know who I would have cut but it would have been easier to use in ME3. Mordin for example would have been better off staying on board as a scientist. Yeah he was stg but he was recruited for his scientific talent. having him stay on board would have cut one variable from ME3. I loved zaeed and kasumi but I think they should have skipped the dlc character in ME2 because they had so many. If they had kept those three out and maybe cut out another one then they could have made ME3 do alot better in terms of ME2 characters.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 12, 2019 1:53:58 GMT
Since Oriana has a proven ability to hack Miranda's mail, she can contact Shepard as easily as Miranda did. Or is it canon that they have no contact if Shepard doesn't connect them in ME2?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 12, 2019 12:30:21 GMT
The thing about the characters with Andromeda is that yse they might have felt that way, but its still that BioWare didn't focus on that writing because they were trying to juggle all the other aspects of the game That is not an excuse. They had 5 years to not produce a single memorable line of dialogue or a memorable character. At least one that doesn't boil down to "I wanna fug de FemTur" or something to that accord. Originally it was said they were only going to have a handful of characters return from Mass Effect 2 due to everyone being able to die, but after non-stop pleading/requests to have everyone's personal favorite character return it was announced all characters would return. ME2's crew was the most well received cast of characters Bioware had produced in a while. The closest I would compare them to, in terms of reception, would be the BG2 companions. Even the Minimum Viable implementation they did of them in ME3 wasn't enough to make it up to the fans, but that's what happens when you settle on an 18 month development period. That was EA's fault. There was no way they could have realistically developed a satisfying product in such a short time, one that I had argued with a mr. Schumacher, if I recall his name correctly, way back when, on the BSN and was told it was plenty of time. It wasn't Dragon Age 2 suffered under EA (this is probably one of the very few instances I put the majority of blame on EA) for a rushed schedule. I agree on that and I do believe there was some intense corporate meddling in the development of DA2. I just didn't like it and didn't like Inquisition, either. And that's fine, not everything Bioware does has to be to my liking, but DA2 wasn't that well received by the public in general and it was mirrored in its sales. I am not blaming the fans for wanting something added to the game and that isn't where my problem is. Its BioWare just throwing out the baby with the bathwater and putting everything requested into the game. One of the reasons why I think Mass Effect 3 did as well as it did was because of how close it was to Mass Effect 2 so people went into the game having an idea what to expect. Using a movie analogy with the MCU I think that is why movies do so well in that shared universe because people have been able to know what to expect in those movies, but something like Spider-Man or the X-Men movies are similar to what BioWare does because they pretty much start everything new each attempt. That's also true, you don't have to reinvent the wheel with each new game. But ME:A wanted to do what ME1 did and do it better. Theoretically, that would be a fantastic game, if they had managed to pull it off, but for various reasons, they were unable to do that and subsequently, ME:A was, arguably, in some ways, a lesser game to ME1. For instance with Andromeda if they just focused on making combat similar to prior Mass Effect games such keeping the classes and not having the bloated crafting system while focusing on the character content I think that would have been a better approach. The problem came where so many things that were either fan favorites or things that people have been wanting to see for such a long time were all thrown into a single game it was just bound for problems. Then they could have made that game well and then expanded what they were doing while keeping the basis of Andromeda the same and added deeper exploration in the next game. I have made no argument against slowly growing a game, over the course of sequels and expansions. I've actually argued in favour of a title doing something similar to that, by first building hub worlds with side activities and completely forgoing the open world(s), for starters. But that still doesn't mean that the competition won't come up with a title that does all those things that Bioware will leave out, in addition to the things that Bioware will realize and do all of them, potentially, better. Which would make Bioware's game a good filler title, between other, better games, but people will be reserved to buy it for $60 release, especially when they can buy that Bioware title for $30, three months later. it would be the same as CDPR giving in and putting third person view back into the game because that seems to be the most common fault people have with Cyberpunk right now I have a problem with First Person perspective. I get queasy. And I do know that a lot of people that play RPGs have that same problem and is one of the reasons they don't play FPSs in the first place. I can't even watch other people playing it. So it is a legitimate complaint. I will probably not be able to play Cyberpunk, at all. At least, not in a way that won't have me take prolonged breaks from the game every 15 minutes. Also, ME3's non-EC ending is also a problem for colour blind people j/k My biggest problem with ME3's characters is the unknown sacrifices they made to have all the characters return for I think all of them had an alternate created if they died in Mass Effect 2. How much of the design for the returning characters lost some of their more unique style or were written in a way they could fit into a box that could be replaced by a new character. For a lot of them felt a lot different between The Citadel DLC and the main game. They were mostly shoe-horned into things they wouldn't have been in, in the first place. Jack, for example, has no place being an Alliance instructor and it is evident how much of an after thought she was. I'm pretty certain that the ME2 squadmates were just inserted into content that was already made and had no content made for them. Which is why people were so up in arms. I think you overestimate the amount of work Bioware put into them.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 12, 2019 13:53:34 GMT
The problem with "doing what ME1 did but doing it better" is that ME1's design vision wasn't all that coherent in the first place. Exploration isn't Shepard's job, and the reasons for diverting the Normandy to those empty systems ranged from flimsy to non-existent. The exploration wasn't for anything except to check of a box on the List of Things Space Games Need to Have.
(Honestly, I though ME2 got this right. Normandy needs stuff for upgrades, and you're searching for it. If you bump into something while you're doing that, it's a bonus)
I'm not sure how to solve this problem. Plot and RP issues aside, the two issues I hear cited most often are that there isn't enough interesting stuff to do, and that Ryder never goes anyplace where somebody hasn't gone before, either exiles or angara. How do you fix both of these?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 12, 2019 13:59:24 GMT
Exploration isn't Shepard's job, and the reasons for diverting the Normandy to those empty systems ranged from flimsy to non-existent. The exploration wasn't for anything except to check of a box on the List of Things Space Games Need to Have. It was fun and ultimately ME1 was a better game for it. If I wanted an on-rails shooter, because heaven forbid I want to immerse myself in the universe, I would be playing CoD. I'm not sure how to solve this problem. Plot and RP issues aside, the two issues I hear cited most often are that there isn't enough interesting stuff to do, and that Ryder never goes anyplace where somebody hasn't gone before, either exiles or angara. How do you fix both of these? How do other games handle the issue? Why does it work for them?
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 12, 2019 14:49:34 GMT
In most RPGs, exploring never-inhabited wilderness isn't what the characters are supposed to be doing, and they don't do it. (If it's a wilderness now, you're after the ruins or whatnot.) This is only a thing for space games, and not even all that many of them.
Starflight did essentially what ME2 did -- the ship needs to be upgraded and your organization can't afford to do it, so you need to hunt up resources to do it yourself. (In practice, following plot leads is more efficient than just exploring the galaxy.) Non-RPG games have adopted this as the central gameplay loop.
Concerning ME1, this is one of those personal taste things. I've given up on the UNCs altogether. They're not very interesting and make no RP sense, and since I'm in the genre to RP, I'd probably blow them off even if they were better.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 12, 2019 15:13:48 GMT
They were mostly shoe-horned into things they wouldn't have been in, in the first place. Jack, for example, has no place being an Alliance instructor and it is evident how much of an after thought she was. I'm pretty certain that the ME2 squadmates were just inserted into content that was already made and had no content made for them. Which is why people were so up in arms. I think you overestimate the amount of work Bioware put into them. Bio put about as much work into them as made sense, unless we're talking about some fantasy budget. (I know you like to propose those, but it's not useful to think about things which EA would never have approved.) Your idea about how the squadmates were written in seems to be nonsense for several of them. Henry Lawson doesn't make much sense as an opponent unless Miranda's in mind for that sequence, and it's hard to imagine a genophage plot without Mordin showing up, or an Ardat-Yakshi monastery without Samara. I'd also bet money that you've got Jack's involvement backwards. This is exactly the sort of character development Bio likes to do; Grissom Academy exists to show off new, improved Jack. You just don't see it because you don't like it. Note that Bio's early plot outline leaked, and missions featuring the ME2 squadmates always had them, although some elements were quite different -- "Background: The Illusive Man offers to give Miranda's father the location of both his daughters, Miranda and Oriana, if the father supports the Illusive Man in this war by setting up, and running, a special facility to herd refugees from other planets to be handed over to the Reapers. The father agrees." Having said that, some squadmates were slotted in kind of randomly, yeah. For instance, Zaeed's original appearance was cut, probably when the whole Omega sequence didn't make it to the base game: Similarly, the whole thing with Udina was radically rewritten, and Kasumi's involvement was cut.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 12, 2019 15:16:15 GMT
Hey, is there a way to embed files into posts here? I figure I should just upload the damn outline rather than talking about it. I guess I can always use Dropbox or some such.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 12, 2019 15:48:32 GMT
Bio put about as much work into them as made sense, unless we're talking about some fantasy budget. (I know you like to propose those, but it's not useful to think about things which EA would never have approved.) Like I said before, it is all about the payoff. If the payoff is avoiding debacles like the one that Bioware DID face with ME, then I would wager the end result to be worth it. The thing is EA and Bioware decided it wasn't worth it, rolled the dice on that one and they lost. You may disagree on that, but I think I've proven otherwise. This is exactly the sort of character development Bio likes to do; Grissom Academy exists to show off new, improved Jack. You just don't see it because you don't like it Jack was supposed to be a squadmate, hence the make over, but was dropped in favour of Tali, after Weekes' insistence. It's chronicled either in the Last Hours of Mass Effect or in the Art of Mass Effect 3 book, I forget which. So no, that's definitely not how you say it is. Even more evident is how she shows up, if she was alive, but not rescued from Grissom; she is a random Phantom with just Jack in her name. I'll accept your disagreement, but like I said, Minumum Viable. That's going to be a recurring theme from Bioware for years to come. And again, it's cool if you're okay with that, but as I've already stated, there are other studios that don't take the Minimum Viable route and have benefited from that, in terms of both market reception and fame. Bioware, on the other hand, has regressed because of that.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 12, 2019 15:58:41 GMT
(Honestly, I though ME2 got this right. Normandy needs stuff for upgrades, and you're searching for it. If you bump into something while you're doing that, it's a bonus) Sure, the Normandy needs upgrades. So instead of actually upgrading the Normandy, TIM leaves it to Shepard to mine the minerals, smelt them, and ask the crew "anyone know what we can do with this stuff?" Seriously, up until ME3 I strongly suspected TIM set Shepard up to fail.
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