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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 21, 2019 17:52:11 GMT
ODST was also released far later than Halo CE, an original XBOX game, an era where the gaming audience grew exponentially, in regards to the audience gaming use to have. You have to adjust sales for their time. And yes, 343 studios are having their own troubles because of how they mismanaged the franchise and the fanbase, very much like Bioware has, but people still turned up for the Chief, because they love the Chief and that's why 343 went back to him, because he sells copies. Glad you admit you were wrong with Reach, this proving your whole argument wrong. |
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 21, 2019 17:53:12 GMT
You're speculating and I simply disagree with your estimates. I think putting Shepard into a mediocre game would ultimately drive more people away from the franchise than it would encourage people to come back. The moment word got around that Shepard isn't the "same' as he/she was in the OT and that gets spun instantly into "Shepard isn't as good as he/she was in the OT"; the sales potential of such a game just dies. If they bring Shepard back without "fixing" ME3, you also piss off those fans who want him back expressly as a vehicle to convince Bioware to fix ME3 in the very specific way they want it fixed. In the meantime, you've also driven away the people who have been saying they don't want Shepard back AND the people who are merely looking forward to some continuation and eventual closure on the ME:A story. You're risking the entire fanbase on one character... one for whom the fanbase has extremely high and essentially unrealistic expectations about. Of the separate "factions" of this fractured fanbase, the easiest ones to please are the ones who merely want a continuation of Andromeda. There is essentially no expectation that such a continuation would give us the exact same personality of Ryder or any of the other characters in the game. The plot of the story could go anywhere. Nothing really has to be retconned beyond what has already been done and IS already canon within the MEU.
I'm speculating that bringing Shepard back would most likely do more harm than good. Since we're talking about speculation and future events, neither one can say for sure what will happen... but my crystal ball is every bit as valid as yours. All we can do is agree to disagree and wait to see what Bioware actually does and then wait to see how whatever they do do is received by the game playing public (note - I deliberately did not say "fans" here because the majority of the game playing public 5 years from now are likely not the current "fans" of Mass Effect).
Yes but it would bring back those old fans. Also the game would have to be good. Yes some people will complain but people ALWAYS complain to some degree. The thing that matters is if MOST people like the game and it sells well. The problem is that the numbers just don't work. ME3 brought back something under 70% of ME2 fans, apparently. Without the new players who found ME3 to be, if not the best place to start, then at least adequate, ME3 would have lost money. ME5 won't get even that percentage, no matter how many zots are thrown into fanservice. Edit: and that's true even if we handwave away all the problems which casuse ME:A to be set in Andromeda in the first place.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 21, 2019 17:56:15 GMT
ODST was also released far later than Halo CE, an original XBOX game, an era where the gaming audience grew exponentially, in regards to the audience gaming use to have. You have to adjust sales for their time. And yes, 343 studios are having their own troubles because of how they mismanaged the franchise and the fanbase, very much like Bioware has, but people still turned up for the Chief, because they love the Chief and that's why 343 went back to him, because he sells copies. Glad you admit you were wrong with Reach, this proving your whole argument wrong. it doesn't really prove his argument wrong.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 21, 2019 17:57:21 GMT
Yep. He goes to darkspace and finds out that the Reapers really were destroyed, and there wasn't anything out there except maybe a few Reaper corpses which are just like the ones littering the Milky Way. But maybe that is deliberate. The Reapers out there wouldn't know how repeatable the Crucible firing was, just that it killed all the Reapers in the Milky Way. Which would force them to adopt a very different strategy in their effort to repeat the cycle. Or maybe enough of them are left in Dark Space to leave the impression that these are the last ones, while the rest try to infiltrate the galaxy and cause slight upheavals here and then, seemingly innocuous, but ultimately calculated, while Shepard is preoccupied in dark space with the dummy force. Or perhaps its a serious force, in a divide and conquer type of strategy, i.e. left behind to draw Shepard out and kill him there, while the rest of the galaxy is caught with their pants down and Shepardless. |
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 21, 2019 18:01:07 GMT
*shrugs* Remember, I only like this idea if it's pointless. Trying to make it work is out-of-scope for me.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 21, 2019 18:02:54 GMT
Glad you admit you were wrong with Reach, this proving your whole argument wrong. Glad you deal in absolutes. There are always outliers, Andromeda wasn't and because of that Andromeda 2 won't be, either. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 21, 2019 18:04:05 GMT
Glad you admit you were wrong with Reach, this proving your whole argument wrong. it doesn't really prove his argument wrong. Sure it does. A game in a series that doesn’t have the main character of other games, even as iconic as Master Chief, can do very well to the point of being more successful than most of the games that star said iconic character. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 21, 2019 18:12:44 GMT
Glad you admit you were wrong with Reach, this proving your whole argument wrong. Glad you deal in absolutes. There are always outliers, Andromeda wasn't and because of that Andromeda 2 won't be, either. That’s rich coming from the person saying BioWare has to do this one exact thing in order to succeed. |
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 21, 2019 18:22:17 GMT
That’s rich coming from the person saying BioWare has to do this one exact thing in order to succeed. I'm not saying it is impossible, I am saying that the chance of success for what you are proposing is that outlier. It is highly improbable, to near impossible for Bioware, in their current state, to pull off what you are suggesting. While what I am pushing for does not guarantee success, it has a higher possibility, simply because it avoids most of the ire that Andromeda 2's name provokes, for starters and because more people are likely to turn up for Shepard than the Ryder twins, simply because of attachment and recognition, if not out of curiosity to see what the fuss is all about. As the Macho Man, Randy Savage, once said  |
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 21, 2019 18:36:47 GMT
As you may have noticed, you'\re not actually managing to sell people on this idea. If anything, you're making it sound worse the more you keep going, since it's pretty clear that you either can't or won't engage with anyone who doesn't share your premises. You just keep repeating the same rhetoric.
It'd probably help if the thing you were pushing for didn't just happen so be the sort of continuation that you personally, and desperately, want.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 21, 2019 19:14:59 GMT
You just keep repeating the same rhetoric. If someone presents a compelling enough case, or makes a worthwhile argument to the opposite, I will concede, but nobody is. People here saying no, simply because they don't agree is not a valid point to any of the points I've made. Counter argue with me. It'd probably help if the thing you were pushing for didn't just happen so be the sort of continuation that you personally, and desperately, want. I wasn't here for Andromeda, nor Anthem. It's only when Bioware released a 50-something metacritic average game that I decided this was enough. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. I'd be fine with things continuing the way they had. But now we're talking survival or corporate suicide. And again, don't go with what I want, propose an alternative, make something that works. I think I've argued enough why Andromeda 2 it. What do you do? |
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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 22, 2019 2:57:28 GMT
I am gonna be honest. For some reason I get the feeling people think I am bashing andromeda somehow. Well I am not. It had alot of flaws but I liked it. Not as much as the trilogy but I did like it. Now the reason I say this is because I will admit that if the next game is andromeda 2 I will still buy it. Assuming they don't go MMO or something like that but they keep the style of single player like it was in the previous games otherwise I won't buy it. Also I am actually hoping that they bring back ryder in the next andromeda game. Now that said I don't think andromeda 2 will bring the excitment level that a shepard game would and thus might mean the end of the mass effect series. I don't want the mass effect series to end and I expect most people here don't which is why I want the next game to sell.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 22, 2019 2:57:59 GMT
As you may have noticed, you'\re not actually managing to sell people on this idea. If anything, you're making it sound worse the more you keep going, since it's pretty clear that you either can't or won't engage with anyone who doesn't share your premises. You just keep repeating the same rhetoric. It'd probably help if the thing you were pushing for didn't just happen so be the sort of continuation that you personally, and desperately, want. Wait? What "just" happened?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 22, 2019 11:24:13 GMT
Also I am actually hoping that they bring back ryder in the next andromeda game. Now that said I don't think andromeda 2 will bring the excitment level that a shepard game would and thus might mean the end of the mass effect series. I don't want the mass effect series to end and I expect most people here don't which is why I want the next game to sell. This is my entire point. People don't seem to care. They want Andromeda 2, even if that means the death of ME, or even the death of Bioware. Their point is they don't care, they just want what they want, even if it hurts them in the long run, as well as the short run. Which is baffling. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 11:59:04 GMT
I am gonna be honest. For some reason I get the feeling people think I am bashing andromeda somehow. Well I am not. It had alot of flaws but I liked it. Not as much as the trilogy but I did like it. Now the reason I say this is because I will admit that if the next game is andromeda 2 I will still buy it. Assuming they don't go MMO or something like that but they keep the style of single player like it was in the previous games otherwise I won't buy it. Also I am actually hoping that they bring back ryder in the next andromeda game. Now that said I don't think andromeda 2 will bring the excitment level that a shepard game would and thus might mean the end of the mass effect series. I don't want the mass effect series to end and I expect most people here don't which is why I want the next game to sell. I understand that... and have always understood that. It's where a lot of people here are at. As I said, I simply disagree with your estimates of the amount of cache Shepard would have at this stage of the franchise and others here are, iMO, vastly exaggerating how an ME:A sequel would drive fans away from the franchise in order to support their personal lobby (which they have been at for years and years) to get ME3 "fixed." They can't seem to be willing to accept that ME3 was an intentional finale to Shepard's story. The finale was poorly executed... just like a ton of other finales in movies. Because the finale of GoT was botched, doesn't mean they should bring back all those characters, including the now dead ones, in a direct sequel continuation of the series; and that it exactly what they want Bioware to do... with the added disadvantage of bringing it back demanding that they literally spit in the face of a number of decisions they allowed their audience to make during the course of the games... and they allowed us to make those decisions because THAT was precisely the cache the franchise had that engaged us in the first place. It was all about being our own individual Shepard and story... not about handing us a "movie" with the singular character and story based on a collective opinion poll of the audience as a whole.
For the purposes of speculative discussion... let's take a journey back in time to 2012 and explore how different things might have been had ME3's finale been a truly satisfying one in which Shepard just dies saving the galaxy (no choice in the matter). There would not have been the clamor to bring him back. Exploration into another galaxy would have been met with enthusiasm... the franchise expanding into new and exciting space. People would have happily left hte 99% of the unexplored Milky Way behind, knowing it was safe because Shepard saved it. We'd now just be boldly going where no one had gone before.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 22, 2019 12:19:39 GMT
As I said, I simply disagree with your estimates of the amount of cache Shepard would have at this stage of the franchise and others here are That point, though, is demonstrably true. Flagship characters have more pull than sequel characters, as a rule. While there are exceptions, they are just that; exceptions and tend to be tied to better entries in their respective franchises, which Andromeda was also demonstrably not. vastly exaggerating how an ME:A sequel would drive fans away from the franchise in order to support their personal lobby (which they have been at for years and years) to get ME3 "fixed." I'm saying that to drive a success, both critical and financial at this point, Bioware has a far better chance to pull that off with a character like Shepard, who is fondly remembered, rather than Ryder, who is not that fondly remembered, or an entirely new guy who they wouldn't give two shits about, or aren't interested to get to know, because of current Bioware's situation. They can't seem to be willing to accept that ME3 was an intentional finale to Shepard's story. This is not about that. But you seem to ignore that point, to promote your narrative. The finale was poorly executed... just like a ton of other finales in movies True, but in Bioware's case, they handled that terribly. Because the finale of GoT was botched, doesn't mean they should bring back all those characters It's far more difficult to do that with GoT. But have you caught up on D&D's situation? Their Star Wars deal fell out and are now trying to get a job with Netflix. I don't think anyone wants them, after GoT, because they don't want another Season 8 debacle on their hands, because the companies don't trust them. Of course D&D got their money, they are successful in that aspect at least, they can retire if they want and not give a damn. Can you say the same for the 300+ people working for Bioware? and that it exactly what they want Bioware to do... with the added disadvantage of bringing it back demanding ... "snip" ... not about handing us a "movie" with the singular character and story based on a collective opinion poll of the audience as a whole. No more difficult than making any other game. You are willing to sacrifice everything that Bioware can offer you, in order to not even get what you want. |
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 22, 2019 12:44:38 GMT
Why not make it so Shepard wakes up, realises it was just a dream and then goes to work at his janitor job around the corner?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 15:05:36 GMT
Why not make it so Shepard wakes up, realises it was just a dream and then goes to work at his janitor job around the corner? Why not, then... answer your own question? Bioware hasn't done this because, at this point, it's not what Bioware wants to do. Do you think it's their best course of action... to write off the entire MET as just some sort of ironic dream? Maybe Shepard can even wake up aboard the Hyperion... having, in reality, just wanting to get out of the galaxy after whichever traum he/she suffered before joining the Alliance. Maybe he/she only ever dreamed of being a spectre but simply wasn't a good enough soldier to even be considered one... maybe he/she even washed out of the N7 program and decided to leave the galaxy in disgust. If you're going to wash away all the event of the OT, why not wash away the old Shepard as well?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 22, 2019 15:13:49 GMT
Maybe Shepard can even wake up aboard the Hyperion... having, in reality, just wanting to get out of the galaxy after whichever traum he/she suffered before joining the Alliance Ah, deconstruction of the Mythos. Yeah, no, that's not going to fly well with people. I think they should do it. |
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Post by themikefest on Aug 22, 2019 15:31:56 GMT
Why not make it so Shepard wakes up, realises it was just a dream and then goes to work at his janitor job around the corner? I would prefer a farmer. Shepard is looking up in the sky at a plane flying across the sky and daydreams about the trilogy when all of sudden the cow wags its tail in Shepard's face. He/she shakes her/his head for a moment, then gets back to milking the cow.
Another is MEA was only a dream that Shepard had while trapped under the rubble. When pulled out, she/he says what-the-**** did I dream about.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 22, 2019 15:34:40 GMT
Why not make it so Shepard wakes up, realises it was just a dream and then goes to work at his janitor job around the corner? I would prefer a farmer. Shepard is looking up in the sky at a plane flying across the sky and daydreams about the trilogy when all of sudden the cow wags its tail in Shepard's face. He/she shakes her/his head for a moment, then gets back to milking the cow.
Another is MEA was only a dream that Shepard had while trapped until the rubble. Whern pulled out, she/her says what-the-**** did I dream about.
No, no. I want a game where Shepard is shown to be just a day-dreaming kid that then gets killed by Ryder. It will be glorious.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 16:01:12 GMT
Maybe Shepard can even wake up aboard the Hyperion... having, in reality, just wanting to get out of the galaxy after whichever traum he/she suffered before joining the Alliance Ah, deconstruction of the Mythos. Yeah, no, that's not going to fly well with people. I think they should do it. My point is that the mythos of Shepard is embedded in the events of Trilogy... in the individual choices we made throughout it that constructed him/her. The mythos of Shepard is different for each one of us. Your mental construction of who Shepard was is not inherently better than mine. The same with the mythos of his/her crew. Again, by forcing the choices made into singular "right ones" (i.e. the ones that actually happened per canon) deconstructs the mythos anyway. You're counting on that singular mythos that Bioware constructs will match the one you have in your head based on how you constructed him/her based on what choices you prefer to make. If they do something different, I firmly believe YOU will be disappointed and unhappy... and still not really a fan of where Bioware is taking the ME franchise.
You don't want to see the gamble in the route proposing, but it IS there just the same as continuing with Andromeda. I simply disagree with your estimates of either the number of fans who would be lured back (and stay back) as fans by the mere resurrection of a Shepard (particularly when he/she fails to match their mental image of who he/she is at this moment) and I positively disagree with your exaggerated estimates of the numbers of fans who would be driven away by the mere mention on Andromeda in a sequel game. Presales might lag a little in both cases based on Bioware's current reputation, but if that sequel is good game, all will be quickly forgiven and forgotten. Old fans who are even halfway open-minded at this stage would come back. Old fans so jaded that they can't be open-minded enough to even investigate how that game really turns out aren't coming back regardless... and new fans simply will be judging everything fresh anyways.
We disagree on the numbers. There is nothing left for us to discuss. We both will just have to wait to see what Bioware does and how that game (if it even ever happens) gets received.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 22, 2019 16:11:43 GMT
Ah, deconstruction of the Mythos. Yeah, no, that's not going to fly well with people. I think they should do it. My point is that the mythos of Shepard is embedded in the events of Trilogy... in the individual choices we made throughout it that constructed him/her. The mythos of Shepard is different for each one of us. Your mental construction of who Shepard was is not inherently better than mine. The same with the mythos of his/her crew. Again, by forcing the choices made into singular "right ones" (i.e. the ones that actually happened per canon) deconstructs the mythos anyway. You're counting on that singular mythos that Bioware constructs will match the one you have in your head based on how you constructed him/her based on what choices you prefer to make. If they do something different, I firmly believe YOU will be disappointed an unhappy... and still not really a fan of where Bioware is taking the ME franchise. You don't want to see the gamble in the route proposing, but it IS there just the same as continuing with Andromeda. I simply disagree with your estimates of either the number of fans who would be lured back (and stay back) as fans by the mere resurrection of a Shepard (particularly when he/she fails to match their mental image of who he/she is at this moment) and I positively disagree with your exaggerated estimates of the numbers of fans who would be driven away by the mere mention on Andromeda in a sequel game. Presales might lag a little in both cases based on Bioware's current reputation, but if that sequel is good game, all will be quickly forgiven and forgotten. Old fans who are even halfway open-minded at this stage would come back. Old fans so jaded that they can't be open-minded enough to even investigate how that game really turns out aren't coming back regardless... and new fans simply will be judging everything fresh anyways.
We disagree on the numbers. There is nothing left for us to discuss. We both will just have to wait to see what Bioware does and how that game (if it even ever happens) gets received.
I have no interest to read what you wrote, but if you want to wash yourself off the OT, you better flip the bird to those fans entirely, in order to be rid of them. It's the only way. I have no problem with it. In fact, I think they should do it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 16:35:37 GMT
Why not make it so Shepard wakes up, realises it was just a dream and then goes to work at his janitor job around the corner? I would prefer a farmer. Shepard is looking up in the sky at a plane flying across the sky and daydreams about the trilogy when all of sudden the cow wags its tail in Shepard's face. He/she shakes her/his head for a moment, then gets back to milking the cow.
Another is MEA was only a dream that Shepard had while trapped under the rubble. When pulled out, she/he says what-the-**** did I dream about.
So, new Shepard is farmer who dreamed about joining the Alliance and screwed up his/her mission (be it Torfan, Acuze, or even Elysium, since were changing everything drastically anyways). He/she is a PITA soldier with a lippy attitude and a penchant for punching people or shooting them before talking to them. We have no paragon dialogue choices because of their (Bioware's) Shepard's background. Alec Ryder became the first human spectre for his service with Grissom. Anderson washed out of the Alliance when Saren tried to frame him and Saren was sent packing by a council that didn't want such an anti-human figure as part of the spectres. No one figures out the Reaper threat until they show up in Vancouver... and the story goes forward from there. If it's a mediocre game, will it sell to all or even most old Bioware fans driven away by how things went down at the end of ME3? I doubt it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 17:16:09 GMT
My point is that the mythos of Shepard is embedded in the events of Trilogy... in the individual choices we made throughout it that constructed him/her. The mythos of Shepard is different for each one of us. Your mental construction of who Shepard was is not inherently better than mine. The same with the mythos of his/her crew. Again, by forcing the choices made into singular "right ones" (i.e. the ones that actually happened per canon) deconstructs the mythos anyway. You're counting on that singular mythos that Bioware constructs will match the one you have in your head based on how you constructed him/her based on what choices you prefer to make. If they do something different, I firmly believe YOU will be disappointed an unhappy... and still not really a fan of where Bioware is taking the ME franchise. You don't want to see the gamble in the route proposing, but it IS there just the same as continuing with Andromeda. I simply disagree with your estimates of either the number of fans who would be lured back (and stay back) as fans by the mere resurrection of a Shepard (particularly when he/she fails to match their mental image of who he/she is at this moment) and I positively disagree with your exaggerated estimates of the numbers of fans who would be driven away by the mere mention on Andromeda in a sequel game. Presales might lag a little in both cases based on Bioware's current reputation, but if that sequel is good game, all will be quickly forgiven and forgotten. Old fans who are even halfway open-minded at this stage would come back. Old fans so jaded that they can't be open-minded enough to even investigate how that game really turns out aren't coming back regardless... and new fans simply will be judging everything fresh anyways.
We disagree on the numbers. There is nothing left for us to discuss. We both will just have to wait to see what Bioware does and how that game (if it even ever happens) gets received.
I have no interest to read what you wrote, but if you want to wash yourself off the OT, you better flip the bird to those fans entirely, in order to be rid of them. It's the only way. I have no problem with it. In fact, I think they should do it. Here's one rewrite just for you:
ME3 is based on Shepard lying in bed on Normandy SR-2 musing about what could happen if he/she decides to go back through the Omega 4 relay after turning the Collector base over to his boss TIM. He decides it's not worth it, so he just decides to take the ship, with TIM's blessing, and explore the Milky Way on behalf of Cerberus. As far as the Trilogy is concerned the Reaper Threat never materializes. They are forever locked in darkspace by the events of ME1, which the Alliance and the Council deny ever happened anyways. Shepard is just believed dead by all and fades into distant memory because he/she "didn't focus test right." So, the games becomes just exploring a whole host of ME1-like planets discovering species not advanced enough for the Reapers to have considered harvesting in the first place.
ETA: Of course, being a Cerberus operative and a fugitive, Shepard could never go back to the Citadel or anywhere inside Council space. The game would take place entirely beyond the Omega 4 relay.
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