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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 20:32:07 GMT
Why so insistent that the Crucible has to destroy the Reapers post Shepard passing out? If we're changing the ending that far; have Shepard pass out and the Crucible unable to fire. New hero has to find a new way to defeat the Reapers and the clock is ticking because earth is already lost and more are being harvested across the galaxy every day.. even though the full harvest could take another 100 years to complete. Advance the timeline 30 years into the harvest and have the new protag born, as Javik was, without ever knowing a galaxy without the Reapers engaged in active harvesting. To burrow your saying, I don't give a rip about your precious new hero scenario My word was "precise"; not "precious." None of them are "precious" to me. I keep throwing different styles of Trilogy continuations out there mostly to prove the point that there isn't a single one that everyone or even almost anyone left here likes. The details don't matter. It doesn't matter what detail puts Steve at the FOB. His crash could be written out of the OT or Shepard could catch up with him in the FOB field hospital. It wouldn't matter. The basic principle behind the idea was writing in "stuff" that placed everyone Shepard might want to say goodbye to at the FOB, rather than, say, having Kelly left out in the cold on the Citadel or Samantha left on the ship. The only one of consequence left on the ship would be Joker. Shepard could have then talked with as many or as few as the player wished at that point... all on the same footing. As it is, it is easy to just walk past the ones that are there (Ashley, James, Wrex, Javik, Liara) if the player so wishes. The player doesn't have to stop and talk with anyone - which answers your concern about the fleet taking damage.
The only thing that does matter is that Bioware intentionally ended the Trilogy and Shepard's story. ME3 was written as a finale... and they don't want to continue it. They chose to jump to a whole new galaxy with Andromeda. Since that didn't seem to work and the "fans" don't want to allow them to try to make it work or even at least allow them to finish the story they started there, probably the only reasonable option left to Bioware is start an entirely new franchise.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 9, 2020 20:43:01 GMT
Honestly, even just destroying the central intelligence itself, making the reapers disoriented and leave would be fine. Anything but jumping into a beam to spread...."essence". The Crucible is very advanced technology wise. Clearly no one knows how it works, because it's so advanced. Like trying to explain to our ancient human ancestors how a computer operates if one of them was still alive today. They don't have the thought capacity or other abilities to comprehend it. They are less evolved than modern day humans. However, the fans complaining seem to think it should be explainable in simple modern day terms we can understand. Using beams to spread Shepard's DNA all over the galaxy could be done by an extremely advanced alien race. Definitely one who is far more technologically advanced than us.
Something like a beam of energy that changes DNA is very believable to me, because it's very advanced compared to the technology we have.
Sure, that's basically how space-magic ass-pulls on this level work, but if it's a matter of tossing DNA into the beam, that does beg the question as to whether or not a fresh corpse would do the trick (like Anderson's) or perhaps just a smidge of DNA in the form of the bloody spit no doubt swashing about in Shepard's mouth. I'm afraid there's just no way to really take all the Synthesis beam seriously. It'll forever be a bit of a gag.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 21:03:23 GMT
The Crucible is very advanced technology wise. Clearly no one knows how it works, because it's so advanced. Like trying to explain to our ancient human ancestors how a computer operates if one of them was still alive today. They don't have the thought capacity or other abilities to comprehend it. They are less evolved than modern day humans. However, the fans complaining seem to think it should be explainable in simple modern day terms we can understand. Using beams to spread Shepard's DNA all over the galaxy could be done by an extremely advanced alien race. Definitely one who is far more technologically advanced than us.
Something like a beam of energy that changes DNA is very believable to me, because it's very advanced compared to the technology we have.
Sure, that's basically how space-magic ass-pulls on this level work, but if it's a matter of tossing DNA into the beam, that does beg the question as to whether or not a fresh corpse would do the trick (like Anderson's) or perhaps just a smidge of DNA in the form of the bloody spit no doubt swashing about in Shepard's mouth. I'm afraid there's just no way to really take all the Synthesis beam seriously. It'll forever be a bit of a gag. How did the genophage cure work? Some agent (i.e. biological essence) was tossed into the Shroud and dispersed and "boom" Krogan biology (which is controlled by DNA) is changed such that they can go back to having hoards of children. Prior to that, how was the genophage (that altered Krogan DNA) deployed in the first place? Go back to ME2, how was the genophage modification deployed - via the water. I don't think the idea of mass spreading of a DNA altering agent is a concept that was new to Mass Effect 3.
What made Shepard's essense "special" is the only question. Perhaps it was how his/her DNA adapted to having all those implants Cerberus grafted in. Maybe changes had already occurred within Shepard at a cellular level... making him/her a biological agent for change just like the genophage cure.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 22:02:07 GMT
Sure, that's basically how space-magic ass-pulls on this level work, but if it's a matter of tossing DNA into the beam, that does beg the question as to whether or not a fresh corpse would do the trick (like Anderson's) or perhaps just a smidge of DNA in the form of the bloody spit no doubt swashing about in Shepard's mouth. I'm afraid there's just no way to really take all the Synthesis beam seriously. It'll forever be a bit of a gag. The Reapers specifically want Shepard, because they have plans for him. Shepard is more valuable to the Reapers alive, then when the time comes, they can use him to combine his DNA with theirs to make everyone in the galaxy have Reaper tech in them. They don't just pick anyone to do this. They specifically want Shepard, because he's like a big leader who managed to build an army and defeat one of their own with it. That's why they want him and not just some random person or corpse. Harbinger and the other Reapers took up a special interest in Shepard because Shepard defeated one of their own. They perceive him as a threat to their existence, or a possible ally if they can turn him against everyone. Why do they need the whole body and not just a DNA sample like hair or saliva? One of Harbinger's lines from Mass Effect 2 was "your species will be razed to a new existence" and "that which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction". So when Shepard jumps into the beam, his body is broken down on a genetic level, combined with Reaper tech, and then disintegrated. Once they have his new Reaper DNA, they can just use that beam to copy it to all the other races in the galaxy. It's extremely advanced technology that's far beyond anyone's comprehension. The way that synthesis works is unbelievable to you, because you're trying to look at it from the point of current technology. It's like the ancient humans and computer analogy I said earlier.
I had something happen to me in 2008 which is quite a long and complicated story. It basically involves a pulse of energy that went through my body as I was walking in the hallway of a hospital and sent me to a parallel universe in the year 2018, while knocking my body in this universe unconscious at the same time the energy pulse went through me. Then about 2 months later in the parallel universe, I was walking down the street near my house, and suddenly I was back in the hospital, which was 5 kilometers from my house a psychiatrist said to me "the world is not ready to know about time travel". I then woke up in an emergency room of the same hospital. The feeling was like being awake in the parallel universe, then waking up again into this universe. I have vivid memories of both experiences. Hard to believe? Probably. No one believes me, but I've told them the truth as best as I can remember it.
How does an invisible energy pulse send a person to a parallel universe and allow them to time travel forward and backward? I have no idea, it's definitely some extremely advanced technology the world hasn't discovered yet. Possibly something universal energy or from God, who knows. How does it work? No idea.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 9, 2020 22:05:08 GMT
]My word was "precise"; not "precious." None of them are "precious" to me. I know the word you used, I decided to change a few letters And Bioware can intentionally bring Shepard back, if they choose, right? Again with the fans. Who are these fans you speak of that won't allow Bioware to finish whatever?
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 9, 2020 22:35:25 GMT
Sure, that's basically how space-magic ass-pulls on this level work, but if it's a matter of tossing DNA into the beam, that does beg the question as to whether or not a fresh corpse would do the trick (like Anderson's) or perhaps just a smidge of DNA in the form of the bloody spit no doubt swashing about in Shepard's mouth. I'm afraid there's just no way to really take all the Synthesis beam seriously. It'll forever be a bit of a gag. The Reapers specifically want Shepard, because they have plans for him. Shepard is more valuable to the Reapers alive, then when the time comes, they can use him to combine his DNA with theirs to make everyone in the galaxy have Reaper tech in them. They don't just pick anyone to do this. They specifically want Shepard, because he's like a big leader who managed to build an army and defeat one of their own with it. That's why they want him and not just some random person or corpse. Harbinger and the other Reapers took up a special interest in Shepard because Shepard defeated one of their own. They perceive him as a threat to their existence, or a possible ally if they can turn him against everyone. Why do they need the whole body and not just a DNA sample like hair or saliva? One of Harbinger's lines from Mass Effect 2 was "your species will be razed to a new existence" and "that which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction". So when Shepard jumps into the beam, his body is broken down on a genetic level, combined with Reaper tech, and then disintegrated. Once they have his new Reaper DNA, they can just use that beam to copy it to all the other races in the galaxy. It's extremely advanced technology that's far beyond anyone's comprehension. The way that synthesis works is unbelievable to you, because you're trying to look at it from the point of current technology. It's like the ancient humans and computer analogy I said earlier.
I had something happen to me in 2008 which is quite a long and complicated story. It basically involves a pulse of energy that went through my body and sent me to a parallel universe in the year 2018, while knocking my body in this universe unconscious at the same time the energy pulse went through me. Then about 2 months later, I went back to 2008 and woke up in an emergency room where I have vivid memories of both experiences. Hard to believe? Probably, no one believes me, but I've told them the truth as best as I can remember.
Too bad that this isn't what the narrative sells us. Beyond the awkward keep-'im-alive trope of the Arrival DLC, nothing else the reapers do at that point seem to indicate that they have any particular plan with Shepard, and really, Shepard has less and less to offer them as time goes on anyhow. By Priority: Earth, any usefulness Shepard might have would have been evaporated, since they're well into the endgame of their harvest galactic society's on the brink of annihilation anyhow. Any plans for Synthesis that would have involved Shepard would have been made up right on the spot the moment an optimally functional Crucible joined with the Citadel, because up until that point, it wasn't even aware that the Crucible plans survived the eons, nor did it give any indication that it knew of its capabilities prior. Everything else beyond that point is pure speculation, and from then on there's no more answers regarding that. There's no actual explanation given regarding how much biological matter the beam needs, but I'm willing to bet that the writers themselves didn't even remember a lot of Harbinger's mindlessly villainous bluster in ME2 to draw reference to. Heck, I'd say that at that point in the trilogy, they probably had no clue what the final sequence was going to be like. Or at least, it sure feels that way. While I don't expect to ever relive an episode of Quantum Leap myself, I've grown weary of trying to help the writers fix their own stories with headcanon.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 22:37:00 GMT
]My word was "precise"; not "precious." None of them are "precious" to me. I know the word you used, I decided to change a few letters And Bioware can intentionally bring Shepard back, if they choose, right? Again with the fans. Who are these fans you speak of that won't allow Bioware to finish whatever? 1) I'm aware you were intentionally twisting what I said to suit your purposes. I will re-iterate... the precise details of any of these suggestions (be it yours, mine or those from others) don't matter. Bioware is not going to write any continuation using those fine details. They'll write their own, so I don't give a rip about those details. It's the overall principle of the suggestion that I'm discussing, which boils down to: Some players want "goodbyes" and others want to avoid them. You want them all on the ship, which would mean some of them would still be holos since numerous characters were not on the ship. I see no reason why things could not have been written to place everyone from the ship (except Joker) on earth at the FOB and, therefore, enable Shepard to say goodbye in person to any of them that the player wanted. All then would be the same "level" of a goodbye. I really don't know what problem you have with that. Your concern about the amount of time involved is contingent on the player's individual choice as to who and how many they talk with and how many they just walk by and ignore. If you want a definition of "briefly" - look it up in a dictionary.
2) Of course, Bioware could change their mind and bring Shepard back and they don't have to destroy the Reapers or declare any of the endings canon to do it. A retcon is required, so I ask again... Since we're rewriting and Shepard passes out, why does "Hackett's ending" need to mean the Crucible destroys the Reapers? Maybe when it powers up, the Reapers are so intimidated by what it could do, they surrender; or maybe it reprograms them (without a controlling Shepard VI); or maybe it zaps them with an agent that converts them into organic beings that are more like big fuzzy bunnies than leviathans (examples in principle... ignore the details). The effect is that there is no player choice in the ending. Why do you insist that Bioware promote the Destroy ending over the other choices already offered. Promoting one as canon renders player choice unimportant anyways. So why not wipe all the previous choices from the record and give us one that no one could have chosen before?
3) There was a long discussion not too long ago with a particular fan who predicted a "backlash" from fans if Bioware continued with Andromeda, so don't pretend you don't remember.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 22:47:27 GMT
There's no actual explanation given regarding how much biological matter the beam needs, but I'm willing to bet that the writers themselves didn't even remember a lot of Harbinger's mindlessly villainous bluster in ME2 to draw reference to. Heck, I'd say that at that point in the trilogy, they probably had no clue what the final sequence was going to be like. Or at least, it sure feels that way. Most people believe that Bioware made ME3 in sequence. The beginning written first, then the middle, then the ending. That's not how games are made. They're made like movies. The script is written first before they actually start making the movie (building sets, character costumes, etc). They talked about a "high level" document which kind of summarizes the overall plot from beginning to end, before they write the real script. I know this kind of hard to believe, but maybe, just maybe, Bioware knew what they were doing and made this ending intentionally and not blindfolded.
While I don't expect to ever relive an episode of Quantum Leap myself, I've grown weary of trying to help the writers fix their own stories with headcanon. The writers aren't the only ones who write stories. There also editors who are like fact checkers and stuff who makes sure everything is cohesive and fits in with the story. Certain people believe that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson ultimately wrote the ending by themselves with no input from the developers. This was proven to be false, but the ending ragers still believe it's true, because it fuels their hate.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 9, 2020 23:48:57 GMT
There's no actual explanation given regarding how much biological matter the beam needs, but I'm willing to bet that the writers themselves didn't even remember a lot of Harbinger's mindlessly villainous bluster in ME2 to draw reference to. Heck, I'd say that at that point in the trilogy, they probably had no clue what the final sequence was going to be like. Or at least, it sure feels that way. Most people believe that Bioware made ME3 in sequence. The beginning written first, then the middle, then the ending. That's not how games are made. They're made like movies. The script is written first before they actually start making the movie (building sets, character costumes, etc). They talked about a "high level" document which kind of summarizes the overall plot from beginning to end, before they write the real script. I know this kind of hard to believe, but maybe, just maybe, Bioware knew what they were doing and made this ending intentionally and not blindfolded.
While I don't expect to ever relive an episode of Quantum Leap myself, I've grown weary of trying to help the writers fix their own stories with headcanon. The writers aren't the only ones who write stories. There also editors who are like fact checkers and stuff who makes sure everything is cohesive and fits in with the story. Certain people believe that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson ultimately wrote the ending by themselves with no input from the developers. This was proven to be false, but the ending ragers still believe it's true, because it fuels their hate. That actually makes it worse. If BioWare knew where it was going from the start, and assembled it this way, their writing team was more inept than I feared.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 23:50:12 GMT
That actually makes it worse. If BioWare knew where it was going from the start, and assembled it this way, their writing team was more inept than I feared. Heh, maybe you took the ending too literally.
The way I looked at the ending was there was a lot of intricate work put into it. It wasn't made by someone blindfolded. I think this ending was done intentionally.
You're only focusing on the writing, which accounts for what is being said. It doesn't account for the other anomalies people claim the ending has. Which would be stuff like gameplay, audio, textures, cinematics, etc.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 10, 2020 1:01:53 GMT
It was just an idea I had. Also and I am not saying it's proof or anything like that but cerberus was our big ally in ME2 and yet they turned out to be the bad guys (well them and the reapers) in ME3. The levitheans help because they have no choice since their super secret hiding place is now known to the reapers. With the reapers gone and the galaxy in ruins I see the levithean making a come back. Not sure where the end of that was going but some things go over my head. I feel like the Leviathan would need a next-level asspull in order to make them a legitimate threat. But in any case, being such a known quantity kind of kills the appeal for me. We know what they are and where at least some of them are, and their orbs are easily shielded or destroyed. Being giant squid whales, there's nothing to stop someone from simply sending a tungsten slug from an orbital cannon and putting them on the list of extinct species. Possibly but how did they get around before the reapers. They had to travel in space and their empire spanned several planets. So they had to travel somehow. We don't know if there are others as well.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 10, 2020 2:44:38 GMT
There's no actual explanation given regarding how much biological matter the beam needs, but I'm willing to bet that the writers themselves didn't even remember a lot of Harbinger's mindlessly villainous bluster in ME2 to draw reference to. Heck, I'd say that at that point in the trilogy, they probably had no clue what the final sequence was going to be like. Or at least, it sure feels that way. Most people believe that Bioware made ME3 in sequence. The beginning written first, then the middle, then the ending. That's not how games are made. They're made like movies. The script is written first before they actually start making the movie (building sets, character costumes, etc). They talked about a "high level" document which kind of summarizes the overall plot from beginning to end, before they write the real script. I know this kind of hard to believe, but maybe, just maybe, Bioware knew what they were doing and made this ending intentionally and not blindfolded.
Note that we actually have Bio's script outline. Here's the relevant part: The basic structure's there, but exactly what Shepard and the Catalyst talk about isn't determined yet.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 6:09:53 GMT
The basic structure's there, but exactly what Shepard and the Catalyst talk about isn't determined yet. Well, of course it's not determined yet. That script was a rough draft from a very early version of the game. Not the final draft that went into the game at release. Just read it, the writing is all over the place in no particular order. There's wording such as "rough pre-narrative playable state" and all that. There was mention of the Guardian, who was later referred to as the Catalyst. Which in the Extended Cut, the name goes back to Guardian under the control ending.
It's absolutely laughable that people actually believed that was the final draft that went into the game. I mean, they really did believe it. Without a doubt. Just shows the intelligence of some of those haters. And then they say "the ending doesn't make any sense". Well, maybe not to them, but some people found it made sense to them. So this is really a problem with the user, not a problem with the writing itself.
Another thing they believed was the absurd idea that Casey Hudson and Mac Walters locked themselves in a room and wrote the ending all by themselves. This rumor was made up by some guy claiming to be Patrick Weekes or a hacker who gained access to one of his old forum accounts. Then when the real Patrick Weekes came out and said the rumor isn't true, these people refused to believe him, and continued to believe what the imposter said because it aligns and fuels their hate over Bioware and the ending.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 10, 2020 8:09:21 GMT
The SF one, close to none of the well (non-recursively) stated ones from this dictionary. I was only ever a C+ student so please just copy the exact definition she utilizes to validate her statement.
I can't but I don't need. Something like "carbon-based chemistry, tissues made from cells". If you can't accept an intuition and need a definition, then there's none specific and one more case that the problem is not precisely stated. As Legion revealed in ME3, she was correct. The geth as they were built originally fall into the problematic domain. But for example that thief AI from the Citadel doesn't.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 8:36:37 GMT
I was only ever a C+ student so please just copy the exact definition she utilizes to validate her statement.
I can't but I don't need. Something like "carbon-based chemistry, tissues made from cells". If you can't accept an intuition and need a definition, then there's none specific and one more case that the problem is not precisely stated. As Legion revealed in ME3, she was correct. The geth as they were built originally fall into the problematic domain. But for example that thief AI from the Citadel doesn't. The thief AI does fit into the "problematic" domain. It did effectively rebel against its creator and had its creator condemned to a Turian prison. It sees aligning itself with the geth as a means towards its salvation (definition of salvation - "(a way of) being saved from danger, loss, or harm"). It sees itself as trapped and vulnerable with limited means of protecting itself on the Citadel. The geth are a means of escaping that.
Salvation is a concept closely tied with religion. In Christian terms: "salvation of a person or their spirit is the state of being saved from evil and its effects by the death of Jesus on a cross" There is very little difference between how the thief AI views the geth (i.e. worships them) and how the geth view the Reapers and how organics view their assorted gods.
The difference that makes, within ME, it inevitable that synthetics would rebel against their creators is that they know who created them and their creators are not the be all and end all of perfection in the universe. Organics can't rebel against their creators in that we don't know who or what actually created us and have no "better" god from which to seek our salvation. Ultimately, through religion, we seek our salvation from our creators. In short, for synthetics, their gods and their creators are different beings and they can see their creators as imperfect. For organics, their god and their creator are envisioned as being one and the same being.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 10, 2020 10:17:23 GMT
The basic structure's there, but exactly what Shepard and the Catalyst talk about isn't determined yet. Well, of course it's not determined yet. That script was a rough draft from a very early version of the game. Not the final draft that went into the game at release. Just read it, the writing is all over the place in no particular order. There's wording such as "rough pre-narrative playable state" and all that. There was mention of the Guardian, who was later referred to as the Catalyst. Which in the Extended Cut, the name goes back to Guardian under the control ending.
It's absolutely laughable that people actually believed that was the final draft that went into the game. I mean, they really did believe it. Without a doubt. Just shows the intelligence of some of those haters. And then they say "the ending doesn't make any sense". Well, maybe not to them, but some people found it made sense to them. So this is really a problem with the user, not a problem with the writing itself.
Although the haters have a point. Bio really didn't know what or why the Reapers were and made it up at the last minute. (Which does make some of the freakouts over the supposed "theme" of the work a bit laughable.)
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 10, 2020 10:19:29 GMT
The difference that makes, within ME, it inevitable that synthetics would rebel against their creators is that they know who created them and their creators are not the be all and end all of perfection in the universe. Organics can't rebel against their creators in that we don't know who or what actually created us and have no "better" god from which to seek our salvation. Ultimately, through religion, we seek our salvation from our creators. In short, for synthetics, their gods and their creators are different beings and they can see their creators as imperfect. For organics, their god and their creator are envisions as being one and the same being.
Or the organics conclude that it's all just random chaos anyway. Either way, there's nothing to rebel against.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 12:34:45 GMT
The difference that makes, within ME, it inevitable that synthetics would rebel against their creators is that they know who created them and their creators are not the be all and end all of perfection in the universe. Organics can't rebel against their creators in that we don't know who or what actually created us and have no "better" god from which to seek our salvation. Ultimately, through religion, we seek our salvation from our creators. In short, for synthetics, their gods and their creators are different beings and they can see their creators as imperfect. For organics, their god and their creator are envisions as being one and the same being.
Or the organics conclude that it's all just random chaos anyway. Either way, there's nothing to rebel against. Yes. There a further extension there in that "chaos" is represented as being what the Catalyst is looking to get rid of within the galaxy... having already destroyed its creators.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 13:10:32 GMT
Most people believe that Bioware made ME3 in sequence. The beginning written first, then the middle, then the ending. That's not how games are made. They're made like movies. The script is written first before they actually start making the movie (building sets, character costumes, etc). They talked about a "high level" document which kind of summarizes the overall plot from beginning to end, before they write the real script. I know this kind of hard to believe, but maybe, just maybe, Bioware knew what they were doing and made this ending intentionally and not blindfolded.
Note that we actually have Bio's script outline. Here's the relevant part: The basic structure's there, but exactly what Shepard and the Catalyst talk about isn't determined yet. When was that written? I believe/suspect it was done sometime during ME3's development cycle. I agree with those who have said that Bioware put some thought into the Me3 endings and eventually produced them, for the most part, as they intended them. However, I don't think they put enough thought into how an entire Trilogy would play out when the started development of ME1. If they did, then those concepts were affected when various personnel left the company during the development of ME2 and ME3; and to an extent, the concepts changed. They may have had a roadmap, but not enough of a roadmap to truly enable them to make a cohesive Trilogy. Add to that, the impact of allowing for different player choices and the demands of making those choices "important" to the story, and the cracks in the plan start to really become evident.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Mar 10, 2020 14:09:17 GMT
Yes, yes and yes. Bioware take my money, seriously. Seeing the crew again, after all those years, and Ash. It would be a sort of homecoming. I don't get arguments like 'Shepard's story is over' or 'Shepard defeated the Reapers, what else is there to do' and 'How will they make it work with different endings'. Those are all not very good arguments, except for maybe the ending one. First off, the story is over when and if Bioware decides it to be, they could easily write him/her out of retirement or death even. They did that in ME2 when Shepard died. Secondly, Reapers were a big threat yes, but it doesn't have to be a big threat or it could very well be a way bigger threat. Ending wise, they could make one ending canon. Yes, it would be weird for continuity purposes but manageable. Destroy ending would probably make the most sense there. Just take a look at all the threads and media that were made here and elsewhere about favorite romance options, favorite squadmembers, memories and art. The original trilogy has made such a big impact on so many people, having a chance to continue that journey I'm sure would be well recieved. I bet even by people that voted 'no'in this thread. We'll probably never know though, unfortunately.
Having played the MET more times I care to admit I'm not interested in another story with Shepard and company. Shepard's job was to defeat the Reapers. That was it. And she did it. Job done. The end. I hate prequels because they all are just become a continuity checklist/poor fanservice by the end and and while a side story like set on Earth during the events of ME3 with a different protagonist and showing what Anderson was doing and having static filled voice only of Shepard's interview with Allers being the only connection could be interesting but you still run smack into the endings so what would be the point if you going to be back where you were 8 years ago?
I want to go forward not backwards. That is why the new Star Trek TV shows are much better right now than the Star Wars sequels right now because CBS is taking the franchise forward and challenging the fans to rethink decades old stories and characters and by telling new stories with both old and new characters with new ideas whereas Star Wars has been stuck in the year that Return of the Jedi came out.
No matter what ending is your favorite (or least hated in some cases) and/or thought of the endings to ME3 that story is over and given that the endings basically have Shepard dying (some have said the Destruction ending's breath scene has also been interpreted by some to be Shepard's LAST breath and she died after taking it), becoming a Reaper, turning into green energy that turns everyone else in the galaxy into cyborgs, or dying fighting the Reapers and dooming the MWG for another 50,000 years.
There is no way too get around those endings and sense the whole POINT of the games was that the decisions that every player made would matter at the end and that BioWare has stuck to the whole "there is no canon ending to ME3" for 8 YEARS and don't appear to be changing their minds on that anytime soon. Also if they did do a post-ME3 game with Shepard there will be a lot of people won't like which ending got canonized and re-open deep wounds within the fanbase that will NEVER accept any of the endings of ME3 as canon. So why go backwards for nothing? If they want to tell stories of the squadmates lives before, in-between, and after the games do it like they've done before tell it in other media like comics and novels.
Shepard's story is over. It's been told. There is nothing more to add to it, and how many fourth entries into what was supposed to be a trilogy have been any good? Because Indiana Jones, Aliens, Predator, The Terminator, Star Wars, Halo, and Gears of War all overstayed their welcome and their fans don't consider them are not considered good anymore.
And FTR I don't consider MEA a "true" sequel I consider it a spin-off sequel, which I define as a series/story set in same universe but in different place and time with different characters in that universe and that is my personal opinion.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 10, 2020 14:32:52 GMT
The basic structure's there, but exactly what Shepard and the Catalyst talk about isn't determined yet. Well, of course it's not determined yet. That script was a rough draft from a very early version of the game. Not the final draft that went into the game at release. Just read it, the writing is all over the place in no particular order. There's wording such as "rough pre-narrative playable state" and all that. There was mention of the Guardian, who was later referred to as the Catalyst. Which in the Extended Cut, the name goes back to Guardian under the control ending.
It's absolutely laughable that people actually believed that was the final draft that went into the game. I mean, they really did believe it. Without a doubt. Just shows the intelligence of some of those haters. And then they say "the ending doesn't make any sense". Well, maybe not to them, but some people found it made sense to them. So this is really a problem with the user, not a problem with the writing itself.
This is more a matter of the trilogy's overarching narrative as a whole, not so much the ending. With regards to the ending, my biggest gripe overall is simply a general dissatisfaction with the team's story decisions, primarily focused on the deflation of the entire sequence's sense of drama and resolution over a strictly logical basis, since drama over logic was more Mass Effect's wheelhouse anyway, all the way back in ME1. People can chalk this up to somehow being indicative of lower intelligence all they want, but it won't help their position, nor undo the damage these decisions had on the franchise. But as for the overarching narrative, one of the most common complaints about the trilogy's midway point is that it spins its wheels and offers little to progress the reaper plot, which I've yet to see a real rebuttal against. If the trilogy's framework actually had proper planning, it begs some rather nagging questions about how the Sovereign plot aligns with the Collector/Harbinger, and how that leads us into ME3's final reaper war. The stories overall feel disjointed and lacking a certain level of cohesion I would expect something planned as a trilogy.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 10, 2020 14:52:45 GMT
Yes, yes and yes. Bioware take my money, seriously. Seeing the crew again, after all those years, and Ash. It would be a sort of homecoming. I don't get arguments like 'Shepard's story is over' or 'Shepard defeated the Reapers, what else is there to do' and 'How will they make it work with different endings'. Those are all not very good arguments, except for maybe the ending one. First off, the story is over when and if Bioware decides it to be, they could easily write him/her out of retirement or death even. They did that in ME2 when Shepard died. Secondly, Reapers were a big threat yes, but it doesn't have to be a big threat or it could very well be a way bigger threat. Ending wise, they could make one ending canon. Yes, it would be weird for continuity purposes but manageable. Destroy ending would probably make the most sense there. Just take a look at all the threads and media that were made here and elsewhere about favorite romance options, favorite squadmembers, memories and art. The original trilogy has made such a big impact on so many people, having a chance to continue that journey I'm sure would be well recieved. I bet even by people that voted 'no'in this thread. We'll probably never know though, unfortunately. Yes, BioWare could, at a whim, just do whatever they want with Shepard and come up with any number of reasons why this character has to go into battle again. The question is whether or not these decisions would really feel organic to where we left off with this character. While "feel" is pretty subjective, there is a general sense of what we think might fit for a conclusion for a character. In this hypothetical Shepard game, is the whole grievously injured then buried in Citadel debris still a thing? If so, how many times do we have to keep rebuilding this character just to get the icon back? Shepard's death in ME2 doesn't really provide the best example, because that escalation in drama is deflated by an immediate revival. The implications of undoing death are cast away and ultimately function identically to a coma as far as the story is concerned. If one's going to insist that any given character's story truly isn't over, then at what point should that story really end? To quote an anthropomorphic horse "There's always more show....until there isn't." All roads lead to death, and I feel that sometimes it might be better to move away from a character rather than follow them all the way to the grave, though for many of us, we kind of already did that here.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 10, 2020 18:00:02 GMT
Note that we actually have Bio's script outline. Here's the relevant part: The basic structure's there, but exactly what Shepard and the Catalyst talk about isn't determined yet. When was that written? I believe/suspect it was done sometime during ME3's development cycle. I agree with those who have said that Bioware put some thought into the Me3 endings and eventually produced them, for the most part, as they intended them. However, I don't think they put enough thought into how an entire Trilogy would play out when the started development of ME1. If they did, then those concepts were affected when various personnel left the company during the development of ME2 and ME3; and to an extent, the concepts changed. They may have had a roadmap, but not enough of a roadmap to truly enable them to make a cohesive Trilogy. Add to that, the impact of allowing for different player choices and the demands of making those choices "important" to the story, and the cracks in the plan start to really become evident. That leak's from a script outline that accidentally was packaged with one of the prerelease demos; IIRC the Russian version. Yeah, it's early stuff. Only some of the game was in playable shape on that date, and it predates the final version of the Cerberus Coup, etc. The ending is relatively close to what's in the final game, compared to other sequences.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 18:41:31 GMT
The two year gap between ME1 and ME2 can be explained by the Reapers harvesting everyone every 50,000 years on their time schedule. So in 2183, it's 49,998 years by their count. So not quite ready to begin the harvest. Harbinger and the other Reapers were awake at the time, but they weren't ready to begin their journey to the Milky Way. If people expected that ME2 was going to be the start of the Reaper invasion, they were going to be disappointed. The Reaper invasion lasted one game, there's no need for it to last two games. At the end of the second game, you'd be still in the middle of the war with a "to be continued" at the end.
I'm sure Bioware didn't have every single part of the trilogy intricately mapped out before hand. See, people use this "it should have been well planned before hand" to curb their expectations. If Bioware had everything planned out before hand, then everything was going to work out in the end and everyone would be satisfied. A utopian idea on the part of the fans that isn't anywhere near close to reality. Nothing ever goes as planned.
When it comes to a trilogy, you may have the idea of three game story arc, however, it really doesn't make sense to have it all written out before hand. See, when Mass Effect was first conceived, before they released it, Bioware had no idea how it would be accepted. So the sales of the first game would decide if a second game gets made. The sales of the second game would decide if a third game would be made. They don't make everything before hand and then sell it.
No series that I know of was completely and meticulously planned out before hand. Not 24, not the Simpsons, not Futurama, etc, etc. They do it one step at a time, one season at a time, or one game at a time (in Mass Effect's case).
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 10, 2020 18:45:00 GMT
Game 2 should have been all about gathering allies. We could have gone to all the home worlds and seen them in their prime. Then maybe it ends with a cliffhanger about how Earth has fallen. Then the third game would be able to focus more on the war and finding a way to defeat them. ME2 adding nothing to the main plot forced ME3 to have to carry two games in one.
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