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Post by cypherj on Sept 3, 2019 11:18:10 GMT
The Mhairi death was very well done. It just shows if things are done correctly, deaths can have impact even if they're not one of the main character. I really thought she was going to be a party member for the game. She had an approval scale and everything, never saw it coming. Obviously the Kaiden/Ashley death was powerful. The thing of late is that some of the deaths in games weren't set up well so they feel flat. Your sibling in DA2 for example. Even Alec in ME:A. Neither was setup the way Mhairi's was, and she was just some random character you met. I don't mind deaths, main character or otherwise, I just don't want them thrown in for the sake of killing someone in the attempt to make something darker. Mhari's death wasn't set up really other then the fact we *knew* it was going to happen because she was a redshirt and it is a rather horrible way to go. Alec's death was much better done (imo)
See, it was the opposite for me. I had no idea she was going to die. She wasn't just some random recruit thrown in like the ones in DA:O. She was fully playable. You could change gear, she had dialogue, she even had an approval/disapproval meter. Your sibling at the beginning of DA2 was an example of a redshirt.
Alec, on the other hand, I knew was going to die, because how else would you become Pathfinder? It was the reason why they put the other sibling in a coma. Then the way it happened. You damage your helmet falling and repair it, then you damage your helmet again and can't. I mean, the Ryders must have gotten their equipment from Acme, first the cryopod and then the helmet. No emergency measures for a cracked helmet? Shields can protect you in battle, but not a cover a hole in the visor until help arrives. I didn't think it was well done at all, or unforeseeable. I would have rather had him die holding off the Kett while you escaped being a badass N7.
There's another thread about prologue or just thrown immediately into the action. Both DA2 and ME:A would have been better served to have one. Let you get to know your family before they started killing them off or putting them in comas.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 3, 2019 16:18:51 GMT
I thought the helmet thing worked OK. A patched helmet shouldn't be as good as new, so watching it bust for good on the second hit didn't strike me as odd.
As for Alec, there's a reason everybody was calling him DuncaN7 prior to release.
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Post by cypherj on Sept 3, 2019 19:36:22 GMT
I thought the helmet thing worked OK. A patched helmet shouldn't be as good as new, so watching it bust for good on the second hit didn't strike me as odd. As for Alec, there's a reason everybody was calling him DuncaN7 prior to release.
I honestly don't really have an issue with him dying, but done well it was not. For the story they were trying to tell I would have probably gone a different way entirely, but that's neither here nor there.
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Post by Beerfish on Sept 3, 2019 20:27:18 GMT
No but tough choice optional ones (see Morodin) are good.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 4, 2019 4:07:51 GMT
If I wanted "real world" shit, whatever that means. I wouldn't be playing a fantasy video game.
And if I spend $100 on a fantasy video game, I damn well expect them to maximise the amount of content I can access in one playthrough.
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Post by x19dude95 on Sept 4, 2019 13:40:28 GMT
Oh DA2 with the most unavoidable deaths... So you agree.
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Post by x19dude95 on Sept 4, 2019 13:41:14 GMT
Is the question DA-specific? This is more of a ME thing. Bit of both tbh
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Post by x19dude95 on Sept 4, 2019 14:31:31 GMT
It depends on whether I feel the death is contrived or not. To explain: The Kaiden/Ashley choice felt contrived to me. You can only save one and there was no way to avoid the situation arising. I dislike that sort of thing because it makes me feel emotionally manipulated so my reaction is not as genuine as it might be. It was a similar situation with your mother in DA2. It actually didn't matter what you did or how quickly you got there, your mother always dies. I never understood how she was even able to talk with us at the end since I thought the whole point was that the guy had only wanted one bit of her to use to make up the whole, so surely she had died long before we got there. By contrast the potential deaths of crew members at the end of ME2 during the suicide mission was entirely down to the choices I had made both to upgrade my ship and who I chose to undertake certain roles. As it happened, I got it right first time without any meta-knowledge but I definitely picked up on the fact that I could have got it wrong. I was understandably elated that I didn't. Similarly, the choices you have at the end of DAO. I knew as soon as Riorden said that a warden must sacrifice themselves to kill the arch-demon that he wasn't going to make it and so it would be a choice between me and Alistair. Then Morrigan makes her tempting offer and when I turned her down I did it in full knowledge that it would likely me the death of my PC. So every step fighting across Denerim seemed to be one step closer to my demise, only for Alistair to talk me out of it. That ending put me through the emotional wringer but it didn't feel contrived and so my response was genuine. DAI didn't really have any instances of your choices really impacting on your squad members apart from Hawke/warden character, which was another case of it feeling contrived to me since the amount of time spent arguing over who should stay we could all have followed the others out of the Fade. Our choices could make squad members leave but nothing could potentially get them killed until Trespasser and Iron Bull, which is something that should have been obvious would be the outcome eventually of our decision back in the main game. There was also Blackwall but whilst you could decide whether he lived or died, it was not something you had control over in your previous actions. I'd always thought that upgrading Skyhold or not was going to be significant to whether my entire inner circle survived the final encounter with Corypheus, so it was extremely disappointing to discover it was nothing more than cosmetic. The Suicide Mission only works on the first playthough. Than I feel like I'm playing god. I want more crap to be out of my control like real life if bioware wants a deep story.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 4, 2019 15:37:00 GMT
Alec, on the other hand, I knew was going to die, because how else would you become Pathfinder? That could be easily explained. When seeing Alec, he's limping badly. I would guess either his hip is broken or some serious upper leg injury, enough that he would not continue his role as pathfinder in the immediate future. Once back on the Hyperion, he decides to pass the sam to Harper, but for some reason it doesn't work. It's decided to give the sam to his kid. Throughout the game, after each mission, little Ryder talks to dad who gives his kid some advice about how his kid could have handled the mission differently and what to avoid the next time he/she runs into a similar situation. The reason was lame. Why didn't they open the pod at the same time as when opening the pod for the Ryder the player is playing? They did just as Wile E. Coyote got his equipment from the them to try and catch the roadrunner. The helmet was of poor design. Alot of the top part of the head was unprotected versus the helmet Shepard and others are seen wearing in the trilogy. Obviously the Initiative didn't do any testing for the helmet. Remember what Legion said during his loyalty mission? Windows are a structural weakness. The same can be applied for the helmet. Anyways. Have a like for mentioning ACME.
Someone brought up Ashley/Kaidan from ME1 about the Virmire choice. The death of A/K was unnecessary. If all squadmates are recruited, then have the other two squadmates get A/K while Shepard gets A/K. If not, have the two guards on the SR1 get A/K. Another option is to have one of the salarians stay behind with the bomb since it was their idea in the first place.
I do agree that it sucked that Mhairi died. I liked her character. Too bad it wasn't Anders that died instead.
A couple deaths didn't make sense to me. One being the sibling at the beginning of DA2. Would it have been that hard for both to be in the whole game? The other is mother Hawke. What reason was it for her to be killed? Was it to show the player how bad mages are? If that's the case, just look at Merrill and Anders. One is a stupid elf who made a deal with a demon, and the other thought that nothing bad would happen by merging with a spirit.
I have no problem with characters dying in a game, it's the lead up to that death I have a problem with. Look at ME3. Some of the characters died for the feels, but the lead up to their deaths were lame.
I know most of what I said applies to ME, but if characters die in the next DA game, I like for their deaths to make sense or at least make them believable instead of having them die just to have someone die.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 4, 2019 22:27:28 GMT
The Suicide Mission only works on the first playthough. Than I feel like I'm playing god. I want more crap to be out of my control like real life if bioware wants a deep story. I have a couple of house rules for it. First, Reaper IFF has to be done the moment it becomes available. Second, any deaths during the HTL segment are randomized. Much less predictable -- of course, you can still get everybody loyal if you don't mind having the Normandy crew turned into Reaper chow.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 4, 2019 22:30:46 GMT
Oh DA2 with the most unavoidable deaths... So you agree. By most do you mean a whopping one? And no, I could not disagree with you more about this topic.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 9, 2019 18:23:10 GMT
I don't agree with unavoidable deaths. Unless there is a narrative, a very strong narrative behind them. As every character has potential, you don't want them dead, necessarily, not until that potential is spent. Or realized in a fulfilling narrative way. Unless you, the player, doesn't want to deal with that character's bullshit. In which case you should be free to tell them to fuck off. Or kill them yourself.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Sept 10, 2019 3:05:07 GMT
Yes but only if they serve a greater narrative purpose, or if they are heavily built up beforehand.
The Kaidan/Ashley decision is one of my favorites.
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Post by rahavan on Sept 10, 2019 4:51:30 GMT
Personally no on deaths. I like kitten an rainbow endings I don't come to BW games for gritty dark rpgs (well modern BW). I will say though unavoidable deaths are 100% better than avoidable deaths in series games. I don't want the wasted resources factoring in possibly dead characters.
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Post by Hier0phant on Sept 11, 2019 15:08:17 GMT
No. Depending on when the death occurs it could potentially destroy party setups or leave me with an unlikable alternative.
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Post by Steelcan on Sept 11, 2019 16:52:20 GMT
I don't think BioWare should be shy about it. We don't NEED tons of companion deaths, but they can be well done.
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 11, 2019 17:36:10 GMT
I don't think BioWare should be shy about it. We don't NEED tons of companion deaths, but they can be well done. When it will be an effective direction for the story, I say go for it.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Sept 12, 2019 2:04:31 GMT
Well it depends to be honest. If it's a single game where the choices won't effect any other games in the future then sure. I do whatever I can to keep people alive but alot of people like that choice.
On the other hand if you are making a series it gets really really hard to have a game where every character can die and have it continue into the next game if you want to have those characters (that survived) show up again. We saw this in ME3 especially. The mix of ALOT of squademates and the potential for any mixture of them dying or all surviving makes it hard to have them show up again in any meaningfull way.
So if it's a stand alone game then yes it should be an option. If it's a series like most of bioware games are then you should limit the potential deaths. Kinda like ME1 did.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 12, 2019 12:05:43 GMT
No. Depending on when the death occurs it could potentially destroy party setups or leave me with an unlikable alternative. On the flip side, I’ve definitely benefited from this in the past. Sometimes the character who leaves/dies was deadweight in combat, and forcing me not to use them helped me realize that there were more effective, more fun party comps. There are certain combat archetypes that are very good at masking how much they’re dragging the party down, particularly healers. RPGs often make the healer the flightiest of the bunch, and IMO that’s a good tradition. Often, the only way to knock the player out of that rut is to force the healer out of rotation. And if they really want a guaranteed healer, they can always play one themselves.
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Post by ergates on Sept 12, 2019 12:29:26 GMT
No not at all, because that's a form of railroading - events happening in a roleplay scenario that our character has no agency over, cannot prevent, and no corresponding action that they take matters.
Far too much of that in other Bioware games, and usually just used either for a cheap emotional punch (DA:2) or as a contrived 'difficult choice' (Mass Effect, DA:I).
What they should actually do is create more scenarios in which a companion can potentially die, if the player makes, or fails to make certain choices, or take certain actions, because that's how a true RPG works - giving us, the player, the power to change or shape the world they inhabit.
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Post by Hier0phant on Sept 12, 2019 14:46:51 GMT
No. Depending on when the death occurs it could potentially destroy party setups or leave me with an unlikable alternative. On the flip side, I’ve definitely benefited from this in the past. Sometimes the character who leaves/dies was deadweight in combat, and forcing me not to use them helped me realize that there were more effective, more fun party comps. There are certain combat archetypes that are very good at masking how much they’re dragging the party down, particularly healers. RPGs often make the healer the flightiest of the bunch, and IMO that’s a good tradition. Often, the only way to knock the player out of that rut is to force the healer out of rotation. And if they really want a guaranteed healer, they can always play one themselves. I understand your sentiment but i worry about the potential removal of a non redundant companion who's abilities were integral to my PC's playstyle in terms of aggro, debuffs, combos etc. and prefers to keep all options available regarding companion accessibility.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 12, 2019 15:07:57 GMT
I understand your sentiment but i worry about the potential removal of a non redundant companion who's abilities were integral to my PC's playstyle in terms of aggro, debuffs, combos etc. and prefers to keep all options available regarding companion accessibility. Which is why a wide array of teammates, that are/remain alive is essential. And while adapting to the game's limitations adds another layer of difficulty, that difficulty can become frustrating to the point of making the game unplayable, which is punishing a player for something he isn't responsible for, i.e. removal of player agency. Which is another reason why I like ME2 that much. So many squadmates, so much diversity, it was liberating and refreshing from a gameplay standpoint as well as a narrative one.
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Post by Hier0phant on Sept 13, 2019 1:05:05 GMT
I understand your sentiment but i worry about the potential removal of a non redundant companion who's abilities were integral to my PC's playstyle in terms of aggro, debuffs, combos etc. and prefers to keep all options available regarding companion accessibility. Which is why a wide array of teammates, that are/remain alive is essential. And while adapting to the game's limitations adds another layer of difficulty, that difficulty can become frustrating to the point of making the game unplayable, which is punishing a player for something he isn't responsible for, i.e. removal of player agency. Which is another reason why I like ME2 that much. So many squadmates, so much diversity, it was liberating and refreshing from a gameplay standpoint as well as a narrative one. I played ME2 blind, and later discovered that the suicide mission's success, and squamates' fates were tied to my past decisions and loved it for that reason alone. If a companion's fate were determined by the player's past choices like the previously mentioned i wouldn't mind.
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Post by cypherj on Sept 13, 2019 11:27:04 GMT
Which is why a wide array of teammates, that are/remain alive is essential. And while adapting to the game's limitations adds another layer of difficulty, that difficulty can become frustrating to the point of making the game unplayable, which is punishing a player for something he isn't responsible for, i.e. removal of player agency. Which is another reason why I like ME2 that much. So many squadmates, so much diversity, it was liberating and refreshing from a gameplay standpoint as well as a narrative one. I played ME2 blind, and later discovered that the suicide mission's success, and squamates' fates were tied to my past decisions and loved it for that reason alone. If a companion's fate were determined by the player's past choices like the previously mentioned i wouldn't mind.
Well, technically if you didn't upgrade the Normandy you would have squadmates die. So that would have been a previous decision.
I didn't have anyone die on my first playthrough, so the suicide mission didn't really blow me away like it did for other people. I didn't know people could die until someone told me, and then future playthroughs really didn't have that umph because you knew what to do, and you basically had to play the game a certain way to make people die.
I don't think there should be tons of unavoidable deaths, but I think if done well they do add to the game. That's why I thought the one at the beginning of Awakenings was well done. For the rest of the game if I met someone and brought them to do the joining I was sitting there hoping they survived because it was no longer a guarantee. Mass effect you could have Wrex and Kaiden/or Ashley die. In DA:O if you defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes, you're more than likely going to have to kill a companion unless you read a guide and only brought people who would not mind.
I think the uncertainty adds something. It's one of the things that draws people to stuff Game of Thrones and the Walking Dead. Nobody is safe, anyone can die at anytime. One of the things I liked about 24.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 13, 2019 11:58:07 GMT
I played ME2 blind, and later discovered that the suicide mission's success, and squamates' fates were tied to my past decisions and loved it for that reason alone. If a companion's fate were determined by the player's past choices like the previously mentioned i wouldn't mind.
Well, technically if you didn't upgrade the Normandy you would have squadmates die. So that would have been a previous decision.
I didn't have anyone die on my first playthrough, so the suicide mission didn't really blow me away like it did for other people. I didn't know people could die until someone told me, and then future playthroughs really didn't have that umph because you knew what to do, and you basically had to play the game a certain way to make people die.
I don't think there should be tons of unavoidable deaths, but I think if done well they do add to the game. That's why I thought the one at the beginning of Awakenings was well done. For the rest of the game if I met someone and brought them to do the joining I was sitting there hoping they survived because it was no longer a guarantee. Mass effect you could have Wrex and Kaiden/or Ashley die. In DA:O if you defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes, you're more than likely going to have to kill a companion unless you read a guide and only brought people who would not mind.
I think the uncertainty adds something. It's one of the things that draws people to stuff Game of Thrones and the Walking Dead. Nobody is safe, anyone can die at anytime. One of the things I liked about 24.
Actually a lot of the characters I expected to survive GoT did.
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