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Post by flyingsquirrel on Sept 16, 2019 13:40:11 GMT
I've just finished with the Winter Palace on my current (and only second ever) playthrough, and I have to say that I found what I assume was an attempt at a twisting and complicated conspiracy plot to be kind of a mess in terms of gameplay. I don't know if the fandom generally holds it in high regard, but I have a feeling I'd have missed something important if I wasn't using a walkthrough.
First of all, I like to have some motivation for picking up random items beyond just "because it's a video game." If something is in somebody's private residence - and if they aren't using their private residence as an HQ for mass murder (e.g. most of the merc strongholds in ME2) - I generally leave it alone. So why am I going around picking up all these random halla statues? What do I want them for if I didn't know they were needed to open doors in the palace? And come to think of it, who designed this security system in the first place such that any randomly nosy person can hack it?
Second, while it avoids the problem of the Orzammar conspiracy plot in DAO, which makes it impossible to actually figure out who's lying and expose them, it still relies on opening a bunch of random doors and on the characters drawing conclusions that, at the very least, aren't immediately apparent to the player. I'd never have found Celene's locket (or picked up enough statues to open the door to where it's hiding) if the walkthrough hadn't told me that it was important, and while the player can hear the soldier in Celene's room calling out, the characters don't seem to acknowledge it at all, and apparently there's no option other than to ignore it if you don't have enough halla statues - in a game where your warriors are strong enough to kick their way through solid rock. Then when I go to talk to Briala, one of my dialogue options is to accuse her of having both Gaspard's and Celene's ambassadors murdered, and she seems to admit it. But while I'd found a lot of dead bodies, I don't recall seeing anything that clearly identfied two of them as ambassadors or to Briala as having ordered their deaths.
Third, while I ended up taking the "all of you are at fault" option and making Celene, Gaspard, and Briala agree to a truce, my own reasoning had more to do with Celene having apparently ordered an elven alienage purged than with the alleged incriminating evidence against her, namely that she'd set a trap for Gaspard. But frankly, that seems like pretty small stuff compared with all the blood on Gaspard's and Briala's hands. Personally, I tend to agree with Cassandra about the Orlesian nobles' "game" - it's pretty repulsive and I'd rather have nothing to do with it. If this were a Witcher game where your character doesn't have much political clout, I could understand why I'm relatively powerless here, but the Inquisitor seems like (s)he should be able to do something more than just negotiate a backroom deal, and I gather that being blunt about what's going on and getting thrown out is a game-over state.
Which brings me to the "court approval" dynamic, which I appreciate in theory but I don't think it actually works that well. Given all the scheming going on, drawing suspicion by disappearing for a period of time seems like it should be a more black-and-white thing - either you're gone long enough that somebody's personal guard grabs you and demands answers, or it goes largely unnoticed. Instead you kinda sorta draw suspicion but can counterbalance it by dancing with Florianne or otherwise schmoozing. Also, does nobody overhear all the fighting and killing going on just around the corner from the ballroom and vestibule?
I realize that investigations in video games are a difficult thing to pull off, in that there's a fine balance between too much player guidance (in which case you don't feel like you're actually investigating) and not enough (in which case you can just end up lost). The Winter Palace seems to aim for giving you a fair amount of freedom, but with some arbitrary "cutoff points" that can easily force you into making a decision with incomplete information and/or incomplete understanding of what your character has actually discovered.
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Gileadan
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Agent 46
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Sept 16, 2019 13:49:31 GMT
The Winter Palace is full of nonsense.
As you said, who'd lock their doors with random items and then scatter those around so anyone with enough time and curiosity can collect them? A truly important door would simply have a bunch of trusted, competent guards in front of it.
The court approval mechanic also makes no sense at all. It seems to assume that the entire court is some sort of hive mind with a single shared perception that immediately takes notice when none of its drones can see you. It should work the exact opposite way around - the court should get more suspicious if you are seen in restricted places.
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Blaze
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Post by Blaze on Sept 16, 2019 17:28:35 GMT
it's an orlesian party, of course it's a mess. As you said, who'd lock their doors with random items and then scatter those around so anyone with enough time and curiosity can collect them? the same kind of people who turn, murder, backstabbing, political scandal and such into a game. the same kind of people who think it's fancy to eat a ham that taste of despair. the same kind of people who think being obnoxios is a virtue. in one word: orlesians.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 17, 2019 14:24:05 GMT
It's not like CRPG players can't be relied on to loot random stuff. But yeah, that probably should have been explained to the player when encountering a locked door rather than when picking up the first statue. Or in Leliana's briefing, even.
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Post by Iddy on Sept 17, 2019 16:35:55 GMT
I hate how the quest tries to mislead us into thinking that Briala and Celene had a normal breakup like any couple and bringing them back together is a beautiful thing.
Or how that elf accusingly says "She slept with the empress who burned the alienage", as if Briala were only pretending to care about elves. Anyone who's read the book knows that's not true.
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 17, 2019 20:20:48 GMT
that elf accusingly says "She slept with the empress who burned the alienage", as if Briala were only pretending to care about elves. Anyone who's read the book knows that's not true. Yeah, but random elves don't know that. They see that Briala and Celene were lovers, Celene torched the alienage, Briala was (literally and metaphorically) in bed with Celene. People love their assumptions and it's an easy one to make if you're a no-name elf in Thedas who doesn't have meta knowledge about your Empress's lover's motivations.
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∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 23, 2019 19:02:23 GMT
who designed this security system in the first place such that any randomly nosy person can hack it? Empress Celene herself apparently. Her father liked collecting Halla statues and when she inherited his collection she repurposed them as door keys. Why? I have no idea.
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Post by Blaze on Sept 23, 2019 19:54:19 GMT
who designed this security system in the first place such that any randomly nosy person can hack it? Empress Celene herself apparently. Her father liked collecting Halla statues and when she inherited his collection she repurposed them as door keys. Why? I have no idea. you know why. it's part of their calture to turn everything into a game and celene is a master of the game. did i mentioned the word orlesian?
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 23, 2019 20:02:25 GMT
Her father liked collecting Halla statues and when she inherited his collection she repurposed them as door keys. Why? I have no idea. Well since Briala was with her from the beginning of her reign it was probably her idea as she was Celene's acknowledged spymaster. At that time Briala still had a romanticised view of the Dalish, so it probably appealed to her to use the halla statues for guarding her lover's interests. I found it more annoying that some statues were deliberately placed where you would not obviously look (in the rafters of the kitchen?) and then they made it almost impossible to reach, particularly if you were trying to hurry. I'd also wasted one of the statues on a door that had nothing behind it of particular interest. Then to make good the deficit I had to ignore the noise from the courtyard in order to go down some stairs, retrieve the halla at the bottom and then return back, again ignoring the courtyard, in order to break into Celene's room with the guy trussed up on the bed. You are right, OP, without meta-knowledge my first run I ended up with only one option at the end (not the one I wanted) simply because I had missed gathering certain items and then speaking with the relevant people that allowed me alternatives. Then in a subsequent run I blackmailed Gaspard into being Briala's puppet but for the life of me I don't know why that was possible. Even allowing for the premise at the time, Briala was just one elf with no other friends in the Court, so surely easy to remove? I'm pretty sure that after Trespasser her days were definitely numbered.
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Post by Sonya on Dec 10, 2019 14:33:14 GMT
I just hate this plot quest: deal with those backstabbing, game-to-the-death, plot-making idiots makes me angry as I think the whole Orlais culture of such backstabbing and simple killing is crap. I hate Orlais and everything connected to them (Viv is OK though). And the result of the quest? You know they 3 are guilty, but you just have to lie to make peace btw C+ B e.g. to get that fancy (and very useful) hat + power amulet. I feel unclean, dirty after that quest. BUT one thing makes no sense: you exspose F. and tell in front of everyone that F. is responsable for doing this or that. BUT then in private talk with 3 of them you make peace C+ B and lie that G. did this ot that. BUT just a minute ago you told that F. did that. And that "B. helped me" (I hate that Briala and lie again: she did nothing at all but played Orlais games as others). You can't even convince to spare G. So how can that be reasonable? Tell one thing and a minute later vica versa. If you pick other rulers it's the same: you lie all the time and have no choice here. F"ucking stupid Orlais.
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Post by Iddy on Dec 10, 2019 14:44:35 GMT
That is acknowledged in the epilogue: Inquisitor is an elf with LOW Court Approval
They hesitate only because they fear the alliance between Briala and the elven Inquisitor. The icy reception awaiting the Inquisition at court is telling, however. It seems only a matter of time. Inquisitor is an elf with HIGH Court Approval
They hesitate only because they fear the alliance between Briala and the elven Inquisitor. And perhaps also because they yet respect the Inquisition. For now, the Empire remains at peace. Inquisitor NOT an elf and has LOW Court Approval
They hesitate only because they fear Briala's alliance with the Inquisition. Even so, many prefer that Orlais bow to no one - not even heroes. It is only a matter of time. Inquisitor NOT an elf and has HIGH Court Approval
They hesitate only because their respect for the Inquisition remains strong. So the Empire remains locked within an uneasy peace--though it seems only a matter of time.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by ergates on Jan 2, 2020 9:43:44 GMT
Well I loathe the whole court approval mechanic. Not only does it make no sense for the reasons mentioned by other posters, but it's a sodding timer! I HATE timers in video games, timed events, race against the clock mechanics.. all that kind of thing. I like to take my time and explore everywhere and hate anything that forces me to rush.
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House Targaryen
N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 3, 2020 18:40:34 GMT
Agreed on timers. Its number two on my list on what I hate about games, puzzles is number one.
You get negative court approval for being in places you're not suppose to. One aren't you sneaking around to begin with? Two if you're in a place you're not suppose to be, I'm sure the imperial guards will kick you out of the palace or throw you in a dungeon.
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N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Jan 4, 2020 0:05:05 GMT
if you're in a place you're not suppose to be, I'm sure the imperial guards will kick you out of the palace or throw you in a dungeon. Nah, they're too busy ogling the elven servants to notice anything actually wrong. You know, like assassins everywhere.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 4, 2020 8:22:43 GMT
I HATE timers in video games, timed events, race against the clock mechanics.. all that kind of thing. I like to take my time and explore everywhere and hate anything that forces me to rush. Isn't this awfully limiting for an RPG? If you can never be in a rush, then neither can your PC.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by ergates on Jan 7, 2020 16:16:31 GMT
I HATE timers in video games, timed events, race against the clock mechanics.. all that kind of thing. I like to take my time and explore everywhere and hate anything that forces me to rush. Isn't this awfully limiting for an RPG? If you can never be in a rush, then neither can your PC. If I want my PC to rush, they would rush. Skipping optional content, racing through the main story as fast as possible. The choice is there if I wanted it. I don't need artificial time constraints or arbitrary timers that force me to play quickly for the sake of adding fake tension. It might work in very specific cases - diffusing a bomb etc. but putting whole campaigns on a timer so that I can never explore, never dally over details, or stop just to admire the view is no fun whatsoever as far as I'm concerned. Ultimately it may be an RPG, but it's still a game; and getting the balance right between realism and fun is important.... which is why space travel in games doesn't take several days in realtime.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 10, 2020 23:16:50 GMT
What about real tension and real constraints? Or should the PC just never be faced with those?
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N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Jan 11, 2020 1:09:56 GMT
What about real tension and real constraints? Or should the PC just never be faced with those?
In a wannabe open world RPG? Probably not. In a mission based shooter like ME3, sure.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 11, 2020 4:40:52 GMT
OK, but that just means that OW is bad for RP.. I'm also not clear why a discrete area and mission has to have the same design constraints as the rest of the game -- the Winter Palace isn't an OW area in any sense.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Jan 11, 2020 16:47:15 GMT
the Winter Palace isn't an OW area in any sense. But you are encouraged to explore, and then punished for doing so. That's what people don't like.
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