Cantina
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Post by Cantina on Oct 21, 2016 21:30:25 GMT
I don’t know if this has been brought up before, if it has apologies in advance.
Here I am playing DAI (again) and being at the war table I am reminded of this huge annoyance I have with it.
As most of us are aware when it comes the war table the time length is the general complaint. I however want to toss another and far more annoying part about the war table- the perk section.
For starters: I find it rather odd that Cullen gets the Under World Knowledge while Lilly gets the Mage Knowledge. Should these not be flipped?
Then you have those dialogue perks that just don’t make any damn sense depending on your character. I am playing a mage noble, yet I can invest two points into the Noble and Mage categories. Huh? Should my character not be well versed in such matters that these perks are already unlocked?
Or how about playing a dwarf and the you need to invest a point into the Underworld Knowledge. Again should this not be unlocked?
So let’s back- up here.
If I am playing a Mage Noble those two perks are automatically unlocked. Since my character probably does not know everything about Thedas (as the other classes) and Underworld Knowledge I would then have to invest points into those if I so choose.
Since the game NPC reacted to whatever your playing should these War Table perks also follow suit?
Thoughts?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 21, 2016 22:02:57 GMT
Ugh, don't get me started on this topic ...
Totally agree. Choice of an origin/race/career should automatically bestow 1 or more dialogue knowledge perks on you. It's completely idiotic the way it is.
Even better would be a dialogue perk system that worked separately from all the other perks, so you aren't forced between choosing f-me Nobility Knowledge and having 12 healing potions instead of 8. Instead, pair the dialogue perks in a separate system, such that you are forced to choose one before each major stage in the main quest, but both are useful. For example, before WEWH, you get to choose either Nobility Knowledge or, I dunno, Elven Servant Knowledge or something like that. The first gives you access to The Dowager without needing high Court Approval, the second gives you access to the elven servants and a dialogue option that short-cuts to the Servant's Quarters stage, saving you from playing Hunt The Wumpus with hidden clues. Something like that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2016 22:09:10 GMT
I don't mind having to unlock the perks. Not all mages are scholars interested in the ins and outs of the Fade. Magic is a talent, not a personality trait after all. Maybe your mage was the jock type, preferring to just feel out how to effectively aim a fireball, instead of reading about it. Not all nobles are interested in the noble lifestyle. If you want to play that bratty noble, who would run away from etiquette classes to hang out with the commoners and is now paying the prize, you can. Maybe their families did not educate them purposefully, since they were to be given to the Chantry in the future. Not all Carta dwarves are business dwarves. Some are just plain brutes, muscles sent on missions to punch things, not ask questions. In their war table quest I think it's insinuated that the ones that sent them there knew that things would most likely go sour and thus you might want to play a dwarf that was sent there because they didn't have the connections to say no, or that some one in the family was getting rid of a less useful asset.
So I feel being able to select exactly what dialog perks my character has is just another asset in role playing that character. And besides, all of these characters do get occasional "freebies" connected to their origins.For example, I think all Cadashes can recruit Tanner, even if they have no dialog perks. I think seizing Sarnia is open to all non mage Trevelyans, no matter what perks they have. And I'm pretty sure there are a couple of magey options mages can pick without having the arcane perk.
That being said, I wouldn't mind having one dialog perk for free at the beginning. So if you preferred your noble to have knowledge of the court at the start you could, or you might give them underworld ties or increased interest in magic. But that would probably require more perks. Which would be nice, like in Shadowrun, where your charisma can give you connections with one or two factions. So maybe ties to the orlesian, ferelden or kirkwall nobility, or connection with the crows, carta or mercenary gangs.
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Post by witchcocktor on Oct 21, 2016 22:51:49 GMT
I honestly can't link the war table perks into my roleplaying or story-telling. They just feel so insignificant and honestly, quite a nuisance. Most of the time I don't even remember that influence is a thing in DA:I.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 21, 2016 23:03:48 GMT
So I feel being able to select exactly what dialog perks my character has is just another asset in role playing that character. But you can't! That's another pet peeve. On a blind run, or even your 2nd or 3rd run without memorizing the Wikia quest walkthroughs, there's absolutely no way to judge the relative merits of "Nobility Knowledge" and 12 healing potions. I can't enhance my roleplaying, because I have no clue what the payoff is going to be ahead of time. If they had adopted the slightly/significantly weighting language they came up with after Trespasser, and told you that "Nobility Knowledge significantly enhances your dialogue options when attending either the Fereldan or Orlesian Court", or something like that, then it would be a choice worth considering. They don't even have to mention WEWH, just the circumstances that a player would readily recognize.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 21, 2016 23:21:12 GMT
Ugh, don't get me started on this topic ... Totally agree. Choice of an origin/race/career should automatically bestow 1 or more dialogue knowledge perks on you. It's completely idiotic the way it is. Even better would be a dialogue perk system that worked separately from all the other perks, so you aren't forced between choosing f-me Nobility Knowledge and having 12 healing potions instead of 8. Instead, pair the dialogue perks in a separate system, such that you are forced to choose one before each major stage in the main quest, but both are useful. For example, before WEWH, you get to choose either Nobility Knowledge or, I dunno, Elven Servant Knowledge or something like that. The first gives you access to The Dowager without needing high Court Approval, the second gives you access to the elven servants and a dialogue option that short-cuts to the Servant's Quarters stage, saving you from playing Hunt The Wumpus with hidden clues. Something like that. There already are race specific dialogue options. My Qunquisitor was able to give IB a greeting in Qunlat when they first met (he told me not to do that, as it weirds out the Chargers) There are class ones too, though they are more rare. But I do recall a warrior-specific dialogue option with Grand Duke Gaspard during WEWH
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2016 23:37:08 GMT
So I feel being able to select exactly what dialog perks my character has is just another asset in role playing that character. But you can't! That's another pet peeve. On a blind run, or even your 2nd or 3rd run without memorizing the Wikia quest walkthroughs, there's absolutely no way to judge the relative merits of "Nobility Knowledge" and 12 healing potions. I can't enhance my roleplaying, because I have no clue what the payoff is going to be ahead of time. If they had adopted the slightly/significantly weighting language they came up with after Trespasser, and told you that "Nobility Knowledge significantly enhances your dialogue options when attending either the Fereldan or Orlesian Court", or something like that, then it would be a choice worth considering. They don't even have to mention WEWH, just the circumstances that a player would readily recognize. I felt the perk descriptions were pretty clear: Detailed study of politics, rhetoric, and those who wield them to best effect. Opens up new dialogue options related to nobles and politics.
So you'd assume the payoff would come in new dialog options later on when talking to the nobility. Of course you can't calculate when that will be or how much it will benefit you, but I prefer that, since it's like a little surprise gift. Like hey! Here's a new option you can have because you picked this! And I feel like the question whether you need more healing potions or not is pretty simple, how many healing potions are you using currently and do you feel one or two more might have turned the tide in a hard battle? As if for the question, which should you pick, I kind of feel like it depends on the player. Which is more important to you, the potential of skipping a fight with diplomacy or that extra edge in the combat later on. But that's just my opinion. I felt the game was pretty clear with what you were getting, but I can see how you might feel otherwise. (Old post in spoiler, hopefully this one is a bit less bitchy.) Was the description of the perks changed after Trespasser? At least looking at a video before the release date, the description of the nobility perk says: Detailed study of politics, rhetoric, and those who wield them to best effect. Opens up new dialogue options related to nobles and politics. Same with the other three. So you'd assume you'd get payoff later in the game when talking to nobles. It feels pretty clear to me.
And while you are playing you should get the feel whether you're burning through healing potions in fights and need more to survive, or if you are doing fine with the number you have on hand. You should also be able to gauge whether you like tossing bombs/using tonics and would like to do so more, or are fine with the options you have at the moment.
As for the payoff, when I play for the first time I'm not looking to max everything out. First run is for mistakes to be made, so I pick something that sounds like my character should be able to do. If the payoff is nice, that's good. If it's bad, well I'll know better on later runs. And I also like being surprised by how a choice benefits me in the first run, like hey I saved that dude and now he's helping me! Or hey I picked that perk and now it's paying off! I wonder what would have happened if I didn't have it! I can see how this might bother some, and I feel for them, but it's just not an issue for me.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 22, 2016 1:07:33 GMT
I felt the perk descriptions were pretty clear: Detailed study of politics, rhetoric, and those who wield them to best effect. Opens up new dialogue options related to nobles and politics.
So you'd assume the payoff would come in new dialog options later on when talking to the nobility. Of course you can't calculate when that will be or how much it will benefit you, but I prefer that, since it's like a little surprise gift. Like hey! Here's a new option you can have because you picked this! For the sake of level-setting, did you ever buy a dialogue perk after the best payoff in the game, which you only discover after you finish your run, by reading about it or seeing a video? Because I did. And I felt cheated. Thus my peevishness about this. The reverse can happen too. My first run, I spent my very first Perk point on Arcane Knowledge (being a mage), and got nothing for it for I don't know how long. Again, cheated. So I can't agree that they are well described, if it amounts to dumb luck if you happen to pick the right one at the right time. Or, you sacrifice gameplay altogether and just get all 4 dialogue perks ASAP. 8 vs 12 healing potions is just an example. The problem, IMO, is more general: players should't be forced to choose between gameplay buffs and content. That's a major no-no in my book. And I'm not talking about challenge level. I know that "Casual" often equates to "My main interest is story/roleplaying". IMO, that is a false dichotomy. One should be able to enjoy all the content and optimize their gameplay under maximum challenge. Why should people who want to git gud at combat be penalized for content, or vice versa? BTW, I didn't think either version of your post was bitchy. You are making a lot of good points and I enjoy reading a different perspective. I rage against bad game design, not against people who don't agree with me. And I did warn everyone not to get me started on this topic ...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 1:40:11 GMT
For the sake of level-setting, did you ever buy a dialogue perk after the best payoff in the game, which you only discover after you finish your run, by reading about it or seeing a video? Because I did. And I felt cheated. Thus my peevishness about this. So I can't agree that they are well described, if it amounts to dumb luck if you happen to pick the right one at the right time. Or, you sacrifice gameplay altogether and just get all 4 dialogue perks ASAP. 8 vs 12 healing potions is just an example. The problem, IMO, is more general: players should't be forced to choose between gameplay buffs and content. That's a major no-no in my book. And I'm not talking about challenge level. I know that "Casual" often equates to "My main interest is story/roleplaying". IMO, that is a false dichotomy. One should be able to enjoy all the content and optimize their gameplay under maximum challenge. Why should people who want to git gud at combat be penalized for content, or vice versa? BTW, I didn't think either version of your post was bitchy. You are making a lot of good points and I enjoy reading a different perspective. I rage against bad game design, not against people who don't agree with me. Never had the perk thing happen to me. Can't even remember when the perk actually gave that worthwhile of a reward. I do generally get the dialog perks first, since I enjoy more dialog and am willing to suffer a bit combat wise in return. So probably different values on gameplay for me. I get not wanting to choose between dialog content and edge in combat, but I never felt Inquisition was very penalizing in that regard. Influence is fairly easy to come by and the combat perks don't give you that much of an edge. So I get what the problem is, I'm just not terribly bothered by it. Hopefully the next game has a system that works better. And it's good the old post didn't come off as jerkish as I thought. Did edit this one to make it shorter and less rambly.
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Cantina
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Post by Cantina on Oct 22, 2016 8:36:03 GMT
I will not disagree there are some valued points on both side but that does not mean I do not have a counter to the whole, “It makes sense they are the way they are.” And since I will not clog my post and highlight all of Kipper’s comments, I will however try to address them all in one fell swoop.
And please don’t assume I am being rude, hun. My words sometimes come off as “strong” but they are not meant to be such. Just simple conversation.
You say it goes against your role playing. I for one am a role player myself and do not see what you see. Yes, there are origin dialogue options already unlocked, however this only further cements the idiocy of having to invest points into these options despite you being of said origin.
I for one play a mage noble, I can unlock preexisting knowledge of my origin already; but to unlock further options in the area my character is already well versed in I have to use perks? What I am saying is: I find it strange that your character is given these options already freely but then if you want to broaden such topics you need to use your perk points. That’s like, I don’t know, a person being a chef and being well trained in a dish, yet in order to make this dish for the restaurant you need to learn how to do it even though you already know how to do it.
Let’s pull an example straight from the game… Be warned the following will contain spoilers.
Take Gereon Alexius’s trial. If my character invests in the mage perk my character will say the following:
“Your magic was theoretically impossible, Alexius. I could use people like you. Your sentence is to serve under guard on all things magical for the Inquisition.”
Since my character was a Circle Mage she (I) should not need to invest a point in the mage perk just to be able to get this option.
You could then say, “I role play my character to be a complete dumbass even though they are a Mage.”
You could try and do such a path but it would not work. The Circle Mage has to be well versed in magic and how to handle it otherwise The First Enchanter will not allow he or she to go through their Harrowing (among other reasons). The game lore says the mage went through their Harrowing and with flying colors.
Thus a Circle Mage having no knowledge that time magic could not be possible or possible seems highly unlikely. This even applies to Qunari or Elven Mages. I doubt their teachers were incompetent who just taught these people how to use a fireball to start a campfire and how to shine their staves with a dry rag (DAO joke. Love you Oghren).
It’s true that not all Mages are well versed in such areas. But considering what dialogue options the mage perk does unlock it seems it falls into the realm of common magic knowledge that your character should be well educated in.
Then you pick apart the Noble Perk but I have already explained this above. If the person is already well versed in such Noble knowledge the perk seems redundant to use a perk point on.
On to the Underworld.
Carta are smugglers. Smugglers ARE the Underworld. Saying a Carta dwarf could know nothing about such areas is ludicrous. True they may not all have contacts, they may not know every nook and cranny but considering what they do for a living they must know enough in order to get by and do their job effectively. You could even use the carta,(your dwarf came from) as a contact for the Inquisition. But of course you need a perk point in order to get contacts even though it’s obvious your dwarf is already connected. Now since my character has zero knowledge of the Underworld adding in a perk to this seems logical.
Thedas Knowledge should be the wild card – as it were- since this covers a great deal of lore and I can see not every origin knowing all the bits of Thedas’s history.
But there is always a middle-ground even if you or those still are not understanding my point.
Whatever your origin is the perks will be automatically unlocked for you. However, if you feel as though you do not wish to have these perks, you can respect these perks out.
Oh and in regards to the healing potions:
Having only 8 (12) and 5 in the game is total horseshit. I can see there being a limit if this was an MMO, but it’s not. The previous games were: if you could afford and/or make it carry as many as you want. Then taking away healing spells just adds another pile of horseshit on top of the pile already.
So Bioware gives us nightmare mode and trials and yet the potion quantity remains the same. Yep, true logic there. Thankfully I downloaded two mods to fix this idiocy.
I prefer the skills of DAO instead of having to waste perk points in order to unlock something for myself and/or party.
Want better rogue tools? One point please.
Want more healing potions? One point please.
It’s no better than a game company giving you a DLC and saying: “You want this outfit for your character? Two dollars please.”
Bottom-line: The War Table was a cluster fuck mess and should have been executed better. Perhaps common sense would have been a grand starting point.
Bah!
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Post by themikefest on Oct 22, 2016 12:52:21 GMT
I did a playthrough not getting any of the perks. From what I remember, there wasn't much of a difference than if I had got a few perks.
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Post by bella on Oct 22, 2016 15:05:25 GMT
I didn't have a problem with the war table in general but I agree that the stuff involving Inquisition perks could have been executed better. I hated spending points on useless shit I never really cared for to get that one perk I wanted. And yes I am aware you could get points added into specific sections by recruiting people but for some reason they never went into the one I wanted, haha. Which is probably my fault for not bothering to do my research, but hey I'm pretty lazy.
I also agree that perks involving story and gameplay shouldn't have been lumped together.
I don't really have many criticisms when it comes to DAI but I really hope they improve the perk system for the next game if they add it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2016 15:49:47 GMT
I suppose it is just a matter of differing opinions As for the chef analogy, I'd see it more as if an educated chef from Iceland were to apply for a job in a restaurant in Japan, they would still have to go through the three years of training if they wanted to serve Fugu, even if they had worked for quite a while in an Icelandic sushi place. They can cook a lot of fish dishes and cook them really well, but some meals just need more training, especially when dealing with new ingredients. I forgot about Alexius trial and can understand why people might get miffed over not getting him (because he's something... and I suppose Dorian approves as well). But still, I felt the payoff for getting him was too lackluster to get worked up about it. But that's a good point on how the perk system might mess with peoples roleplaying. Not getting it automatically because the player is a mage doesn't really bother me, but that's more on how the Circle/mage training works in my mind. I can see how it can annoy others. I don't remember reading about how well Trevelyan passed their Harrowing, but judging from the Harrowing in Origin, success is more a matter of will and power, rather than theoretical knowledge. So you could have a very clever mage, well versed in most subjects, but weak in will and confidence, who's Harrowing would be delayed unlike a willfuland confident mage, who was not terribly book smart or lore wise, but strong enough in their convictions that they could probably resist the pull of a demon.
As for the subject of time theory, I don't see why a Circle mage would have been required to spend time magic which the Circle knows many have attempted, but none succeeded. Instead I'd figure they would spend time on things that would most definitely pay off in the future, like scrying, alchemy, magical creatures, combat spells and healing. I would suspect a keeper would push their firsts and second to spend time learning spells that benefited the clan, like healing, lighting fires, fending off bandits and fixing broken bridges, rather than spend their time messing with magic that had never succeeded and required more lyrium and materials than the Dalish would have on hand. Same with a mercenary, but swap clan out for group. As for the underworld. Smugglers are a part of the underworld, not the underworld as a whole. That space is shared by slavers, assassins, thieves, mercenaries and more. And Cadash gets all the lyrium connected underworld options for free, showing they have connections in the lyrium business, but need to put effort into having more sway in other parts of the Underworld. Which sounds fair to me. As for the healing potions. I found 8 to work just fine and 12 to be plenty. It caused you to learn the guard/barrier system instead, which I found far more enjoyable than just cooking up 258 potions and just chugging them during fights. As for difficulty increasing not giving more potions. That's kind of the point in my eyes, making the game harder. Wouldn't haven been suprised if it gave you less potions on higher difficulty, properly forcing you to learn to use defensive skills or dodging. I also loved getting free refills, rather than spending gold on elf root and distilling agents. And kind of preferred not having healing spells. Then I didn't feel like I was being punished for not wanting to have Anders or Wynne in the party. The latter one was a bit more fair, since at least you could waste some talent points in healing for Morrigan. Same with Perk system. Preferred spending four points to increase the skill of all rogues in the party, rather than spending 4 points on each rogue. It meant that if I suddenly wanted to bring Cole with me, I could use the skill points he had to increase his combat skills, rather than worrying if I'd be missing out on 10 chests because his lockpicking was too low. Also if the attribute points had still been a thing, it would have given more freedom to play with the party rogues skill points instead of being pushed to have all the rogues with 40 cunning. On the other hand. The only locked things in Inquisition were doors. So the perk benefit has the least affect here. So it is kind of dumb when you look at it that way. Damn... Anyways for me, it's just a matter of opinions. I found the War Table quite nice as it was, but it could definitely have been done better. But I suppose these arguments (even if fun to read and very civil ) won't be changing any minds. So I do hope you can cook up some improvements for the war table that will catch the eyes of a lurking Bioware employee and be used to increase the quality of the next game.
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 24, 2016 4:11:40 GMT
I prefer this system over seeing people complain because some race-class combinations have more points to spend than others.
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Post by SilentK on Nov 12, 2016 21:51:28 GMT
Hmmm... Being able to add more options that I haven't seen before is a really big bonus for me. Currently I am playing a qunari mage so this is the first time I have unlocked the mage-extra-bits. And I don't really agree that nobility absolutely have to know all the extra things, you might not be as interested in the power games and intrigues as the others. I love nothing better than knowing that there are a few things hidden in the game that I might see for the first time in my current PT. It is what makes each new Inquisitor fun to play even when you have seen all the major things, all the extra little tidbits. A future Quizzy, female dwarf will be the first one to get "knowing everything about the underworld"-option. For me, being able to chose myself if my Quizzy should have extra insight is a real bonus I always try to leave some little thing for the next PT, take great care not to unlock everything at once.
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Post by xerrai on Nov 13, 2016 0:28:17 GMT
I'm actually pretty ok with how the perk system is set up, oddities in their placement aside (like Leliana not having Underworld Knowledge). While I can see the appeal, I don't think certain races should automatically have X perk. As some have said, not all mage Trevelyans are magic scholars, and not every Carta member deals with the underworld at large, etc.
Maybe give one free perk at the start of the game so they can invest it in whatever perk they want? That seems better than ending up with a perk that may not align with what a player had in mind for their PC, or getting issues with how certain race/class combinations ended up with more perks than others.
The only thing I have issues with in the war table perks is not so much the knowledge perks but the dialogue that is unlocked with them. Like that dialogue with the Alexius trial that Cantina referenced where the Inquisitor uses the 'arcane knowledge' perk to basically consider recruiting Alexius for his arcane knowledge. I don't see why 'arcane knowledge' is required to come up with that idea. Same with sentencing someone to tranquility, which was only available to mages for some reason. Sometimes the knowledge perks just seem like adding a bit common sense to the character....but I guess that's more of a writing issue.
But apart from that I have no complaints. From the potions to the bag space, I was actually pretty content with it. Just complete some game content and you can get it soon enough. That being said, I would not be the least bit opposed to having things like bag space and potions tied to a different mechanic, like a merchant or crafting system.
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neocodex
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Post by neocodex and 23 others on Nov 14, 2016 9:27:37 GMT
Let’s pull an example straight from the game… Be warned the following will contain spoilers.
Take Gereon Alexius’s trial. If my character invests in the mage perk my character will say the following:
“Your magic was theoretically impossible, Alexius. I could use people like you. Your sentence is to serve under guard on all things magical for the Inquisition.”
Since my character was a Circle Mage she (I) should not need to invest a point in the mage perk just to be able to get this option.
You could then say, “I role play my character to be a complete dumbass even though they are a Mage.”
You could try and do such a path but it would not work. The Circle Mage has to be well versed in magic and how to handle it otherwise The First Enchanter will not allow he or she to go through their Harrowing (among other reasons). The game lore says the mage went through their Harrowing and with flying colors.
Thus a Circle Mage having no knowledge that time magic could not be possible or possible seems highly unlikely. This even applies to Qunari or Elven Mages. I doubt their teachers were incompetent who just taught these people how to use a fireball to start a campfire and how to shine their staves with a dry rag (DAO joke. Love you Oghren).
It’s true that not all Mages are well versed in such areas. But considering what dialogue options the mage perk does unlock it seems it falls into the realm of common magic knowledge that your character should be well educated in. While I agree with your sentiment as a whole, I would say I could understand that not having this knowledge without the perk is reasonable. This is a special Inquistion perk you get from one of your advisors. I haven't played a mage story myself, but I'm pretty sure you're not a well versed first enchanter type of know-it-all mage when you start. The Inquisition perks grant you very special traits from people like the legendary spymaster, these aren't just any perks. Saying that time travel is something that every mage should have theoretical knowledge about is not something that I would agree with. If anything, I expect such studies to be frowned upon in the circle as it is something that only Tevinter might dare to engage with, but the Inquisition dares to go further into gray areas with these things, thus allowing you to know and research less common knowledge. This is how I would explain the lore reasons for myself, even tough it's true that execution of the perk system was poor at best, but I can find a reason to "upgrade" your knowledge with Inquisition secrets. Without having this perk, it is not only about not knowing the theoretical possibilities, but from a roleplaying standpoint your character chose to be further more inclined toward magical studies no matter if he is a mage himself or not. Thus, you get the option of recruiting Alexius to conduct additional studies. This is not about your character not being aware of the possibilities, but caring about them and seeing them as opportunity. Someone that did not invest his time and dedication to advanced magical studies (which is what the perk gives you) would not be particularly interested in this idea. But if you chose that option, your character is more inclined to think towards this direction, so the conversation option unlocks for you.
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