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Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 25, 2020 17:33:13 GMT
Hah, reported. What an anticlimactic ending. good point, anticlimactic endings are never fun. I see what you did there... well played.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 25, 2020 17:35:13 GMT
good point, anticlimactic endings are never fun. I see what you did there... well played. Trust me, it is an art form.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 25, 2020 17:39:29 GMT
I see what you did there... well played. Trust me, it is an art form. Something, something, artistic integrity?
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Post by Phantom on Aug 25, 2020 17:48:33 GMT
Trust me, it is an art form. Something, something, artistic integrity? YES very much artistic integrity.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 25, 2020 17:55:18 GMT
Something, something, artistic integrity? YES very much artistic integrity. Now that this is out of our systems....
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Post by Phantom on Aug 25, 2020 17:57:13 GMT
YES very much artistic integrity. Now that this is out of our systems.... It could be worse. It could be out of this universe
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Post by ahglock on Aug 28, 2020 2:05:33 GMT
Jeez.. did that guy really play "if you don't understand it, it's because you're too dumb and I can't help you"? Has that ever worked, anywhere? A lot of people tried to sell it for the ME3 endings.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 31, 2020 14:00:43 GMT
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Post by cloud9 on Sept 18, 2020 3:54:37 GMT
Jeez.. did that guy really play "if you don't understand it, it's because you're too dumb and I can't help you"? Has that ever worked, anywhere? MuH arTiStIc enDiNG!!
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Post by therevanchist25 on Oct 1, 2020 16:09:56 GMT
Jeez.. did that guy really play "if you don't understand it, it's because you're too dumb and I can't help you"? Has that ever worked, anywhere? No, but Bioware to this day has clung to that excuse.
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 1, 2020 18:57:06 GMT
Jeez.. did that guy really play "if you don't understand it, it's because you're too dumb and I can't help you"? Has that ever worked, anywhere? No, but Bioware to this day has clung to that excuse. And Naughty Dog unfortunately has followed the same pit.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 16, 2020 13:11:30 GMT
there are quite a few places where they allowed us to make choices that became pretty costly for them to support - but they did it, anyway The problem is that, while you can say that and you may even like what they did with it, the complaints thrown at that implementation are overwhelming. And I know, blame the fans, but that's not going to mitigate the damage. It's been 8 years. It's not going to go away. Thank You!!!!!
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Post by kalreegar on Nov 16, 2020 16:55:58 GMT
ME3 is a great game. With the DLC + EC, an awesome game.
The ending is still artistically (and maybe ethically) questionable, but the logic is not broken, nor there are any plot holes, nor unforgivable flaws.
It's not the greatest ending ever, nor the greatest game ever, but criticism like that is absolutely exaggerated, excessive and unfair. Imo.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 17, 2020 4:39:36 GMT
ME3 is a great game. With the DLC + EC, an awesome game. The ending is still artistically (and maybe ethically) questionable, but the logic is not broken, nor there are any plot holes, nor unforgivable flaws. It's not the greatest ending ever, nor the greatest game ever, but criticism like that is absolutely exaggerated, excessive and unfair. Imo. It's not a horrible game but there are huge plot holes, the story is very inconsistent, and the writing is incompetent, at best. And the DLCs wouldn't make a difference, anyways. Just cash grab.
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Post by kalreegar on Nov 17, 2020 8:28:39 GMT
mmm no, no plot holes, everything is perfectly explainable with in-game information. There are no inconsistencies: not everything is expressly explained and enunciated, but this applies to any work of art, novel, movie, etc..
in Me3, plot holes and inconsistencies exist only if you want them to exist, start to make arbitrary assumption, arguing what would be "more realistic and beliavable" (which is a totally legitimate but very different issue) instead of sticking to the simple: "merely logical and possible".
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 17, 2020 11:14:18 GMT
merely logical and possible I'd argue a lot of those things are possible, but not logical. Things happen to forward the plot, because it is convenient to the plot and then explained away in a throwaway line earlier/later on, to justify something with zero foreshadowing. Like the Starkid residing in the Citadel, Udina betraying himself, etc. Or something that happen because Bioware needs them to happen. Things like why Kirrahe shows up to save the Salarian councilor when Thane is dead, or if Thane shows up to save the Salarian councilor, Kirrahe is nowhere to be found etc. Call them inconsistencies, if you want, but they pile up, one after another, to the point where, if you take a pause to notice what is going on, it starts to crack and realize how dumb it all is. Like a J.J. Abrams flick.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 17, 2020 17:59:01 GMT
mmm no, no plot holes, everything is perfectly explainable with in-game information. There are no inconsistencies: not everything is expressly explained and enunciated, but this applies to any work of art, novel, movie, etc.. in Me3, plot holes and inconsistencies exist only if you want them to exist, start to make arbitrary assumption, arguing what would be " more realistic and beliavable" (which is a totally legitimate but very different issue) instead of sticking to the simple: " merely logical and possible". If you want insight in detail, click on the link below. www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=30359
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Post by kalreegar on Nov 17, 2020 19:34:25 GMT
mmm no, no plot holes, everything is perfectly explainable with in-game information. There are no inconsistencies: not everything is expressly explained and enunciated, but this applies to any work of art, novel, movie, etc.. in Me3, plot holes and inconsistencies exist only if you want them to exist, start to make arbitrary assumption, arguing what would be " more realistic and beliavable" (which is a totally legitimate but very different issue) instead of sticking to the simple: " merely logical and possible". If you want insight in detail, click on the link below. www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=30359that's exactly what I mean. Making up plot holes. So, ok, let's take Arrival. Shamus: " So how long was it from the end of the second game to The Arrival? A few weeks? Months? If that's all it takes, then Sovereign and Harbinger are idiots for enacting their plans instead of... whatever caused this to happen. The Arrival retroactively makes Mass Effect 1 dumb and pointless." Well... no. Bad writing maybe, but inconsistencies? No. We only need to assume that the Reapers rated as much more advantageous and effecient to try first to take control of the Citadel. To replicate a masterplan that has been successful thousands of times. Can we do that? Yes. Nothing in-game contradict it. A masterplan that btw would have guaranteed them many (decisive? They've lost with plan B, after all) advantages, like the surprise effect, the control of the citadel (and thus being able to protect and/or reactivate the catalyst) and all its datas, to shut down the entire mass relays system and to isolate every species, every system etc. Having failed with plan A, they were forced to go with plan B, which is attacking the Milky way via deep space. After Alpha Relay is gone, with no control over the relays network (at least, in the first fase of the invasion) Could they have done it even during ME1? Yes, but we do not know how expensive this travel/plan B is in terms of the resources invested and logistical issues. Maybe a lot, maybe it's almost unacceptable from their point of view. How much the reapers consider a risky strategy to have to attack the galaxy frontally without control of the relays network? How much important for them is to minimize losses? We don't know. Who knows? Let's remember the original assumption: the Reapers rated as much more advantageous and effecient to try first to take control of the Citadel. There are many plausible, possible and logical explanations (even if not explicit and expressed) for the behavior of the reapers before, during and after ME1. And as long as there are possible and logical explanations, there are no plot holes or inconsistencies. In my opinion. At most, annoying omissions, sloppy narrative.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 21, 2020 20:46:35 GMT
that's exactly what I mean. Making up plot holes. So, ok, let's take Arrival. Shamus: " So how long was it from the end of the second game to The Arrival? A few weeks? Months? If that's all it takes, then Sovereign and Harbinger are idiots for enacting their plans instead of... whatever caused this to happen. The Arrival retroactively makes Mass Effect 1 dumb and pointless." Well... no. Bad writing maybe, but inconsistencies? No. We only need to assume that the Reapers rated as much more advantageous and effecient to try first to take control of the Citadel. To replicate a masterplan that has been successful thousands of times. Can we do that? Yes. Nothing in-game contradict it. A masterplan that btw would have guaranteed them many (decisive? They've lost with plan B, after all) advantages, like the surprise effect, the control of the citadel (and thus being able to protect and/or reactivate the catalyst) and all its datas, to shut down the entire mass relays system and to isolate every species, every system etc. Having failed with plan A, they were forced to go with plan B, which is attacking the Milky way via deep space. After Alpha Relay is gone, with no control over the relays network (at least, in the first fase of the invasion) Could they have done it even during ME1? Yes, but we do not know how expensive this travel/plan B is in terms of the resources invested and logistical issues. Maybe a lot, maybe it's almost unacceptable from their point of view. How much the reapers consider a risky strategy to have to attack the galaxy frontally without control of the relays network? How much important for them is to minimize losses? We don't know. Who knows? Let's remember the original assumption: the Reapers rated as much more advantageous and effecient to try first to take control of the Citadel. There are many plausible, possible and logical explanations (even if not explicit and expressed) for the behavior of the reapers before, during and after ME1. And as long as there are possible and logical explanations, there are no plot holes or inconsistencies. In my opinion. At most, annoying omissions, sloppy narrative. But the thing is: That the writers never once explained, or mentioned how the Reapers invade the Galaxy without the Citadel. They've officially confirmed that the only way for the Reapers to invade is through the Citadel. And Sovereign send Saren to override the controls to open the gate. So yes, it is a plot hole because something doesn't add up that the Reapers invade the Galaxy, without the Citadel and the Batarian Relay. Plus, it would be different if The Arrival is part of the main story, if Shepard has failed to stop the relay from overriding from the indoctrinated. Then the Reapers arrived from Dark Space, and the credits should end. That would been more believable than Shepard and gang stopping the Collectors, and successfully stop the relay to prevent Reapers from entering the Milky Way.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 21, 2020 20:52:55 GMT
The video is nitpicky but damn it's crazy how many inconsistencies there are in the lore and plot holes in the story. Tons of fuck ups in the codex as well. Bioware didn't do themselves any favors by getting off track with the Collectors. Exactly.
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Post by smilesja on Nov 21, 2020 20:58:00 GMT
Jeez.. did that guy really play "if you don't understand it, it's because you're too dumb and I can't help you"? Has that ever worked, anywhere? It's late I know but you'll be surprised how many developers practically tell the players a statement related to that.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Nov 21, 2020 21:08:50 GMT
Jeez.. did that guy really play "if you don't understand it, it's because you're too dumb and I can't help you"? Has that ever worked, anywhere? It's late I know but you'll be surprised how many developers practically tell the players a statement related to that. It is a troubling trend. Developers are starting to resemble Hollywood celebrities. In the sense that, they believe they always know better than you, and how you should be grateful for what they give you. They preach to you about the ills of society and wag fingers at people, while knowingly participating in the same abusive systems they claim to be against.
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Post by smilesja on Nov 21, 2020 21:13:28 GMT
It's late I know but you'll be surprised how many developers practically tell the players a statement related to that. It is a troubling trend. Developers are starting to resemble Hollywood celebrities. In the sense that, they believe they always know better than you, and how you should be grateful for what they give you. They preach to you about the ills of society and wag fingers at people, while knowingly participating in the same abusive systems they claim to be against. I can think of a few games that have the devs moralize to you and act all haughty. Like a high schooler who thinks he's enlightened because they've read John Locke.
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Post by kalreegar on Nov 22, 2020 0:21:10 GMT
When? Who?
The only thing confirmed is that in year 2183 they still believed that the best way to invade the galaxy was through the citadel. Few years later, they have choosen another strategy. That'is it. Nothing illogical or absurd here.
Everything else is just Vigil's speculation, and btw I don't remember him saying that if we stop Saren the reapers will be cut off FOREVER. On the contrary: shepard last sentence of ME1 is something like "the reapers are still out there and I will find a way to stop them" -> heavily implied that he is aware of the fact that they have not being stopped permanently.
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Post by redeem on Nov 22, 2020 22:56:50 GMT
ME3 is a great game. With the DLC + EC, an awesome game. The ending is still artistically (and maybe ethically) questionable, but the logic is not broken, nor there are any plot holes, nor unforgivable flaws. It's not the greatest ending ever, nor the greatest game ever, but criticism like that is absolutely exaggerated, excessive and unfair. Imo. There is nothing excessive about the criticism about ME3. ME3 is not a great game. And post launch DLC serving nothing more than cash grabs does not change that. The ending is one of if not the worst/most controversial ending in recent video game history. To the point where we still talk about it 8 years later. Plot holes or not, the narrative of the story, the way it was set up and the god forsaken ending does not add up to a "great game". Tuchanka and Rannoch arcs were done very well, but that's it. 1. Bioware realized how badly they had written themselves in to a hole. What do they do? "Hey guys, humans have been on Mars for ages since they found Prothean tech! But we forgot to mention we did not find anything about a magical beam weapon that could attack the entire galaxy and wipe all the Cthulu!". 2. The first two games place heavy emphasis on developing bonds with your squadmates, the second more so. It's a massive disservice that you barely get anything more than fleeting 1 off conversations with most of your ME2 squadmates from ME2. 3. Choices mattering yet a choice that was huge in ME1 (Rachni Queen) literally does not matter at all because she's either indoctrinated or... indoctrinated. Add this to the massive amounts of added auto-dialogue and the shrinking of the dialogue wheel and that just compounds the literary problems that ME3 had. 4. What was the damn point of fighting Cerberus for 65 percent of the game when you have literal genocide on your doorstep? Don't even get me started on how TIM magically teleports with Anderson to the top of the "Citadel" with Shepard who can magically survive an explosion from the largest Reaper's beam. 5. Absolutely no foreshadowing whatsoever for Udina's coup. What was the point of making Anderson part of the Council when they canonize Udina anyways? Isn't this the same community who apparently does not want a canon ending for a future MET game but stood by and watch more than one choice get canonized anyways? 6. The Spectre candidate (Kaiden/Ash) being written to be absolutely stupid. Been with Shepard through everything and still questioning why of all things, there's an entire squad ready to put down Udina? I would need at least an hour to compile references to how many inconsistencies (not necessarily plot holes) that are in ME3. I will give ME3 credit. Tuchanka and Rannoch were done very well. The combat was the best in the trilogy and it's not even close.
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