Sharable Horizon
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Post by Sharable Horizon on Jul 2, 2020 23:39:42 GMT
Sorry if this makes no sense and will initially be brief as I’ve got to dash out to work, but a thought just came to me whilst i was in the shower and I have commit it to text before I forget! So lyrium. We commonly refer to it as Titans blood, but what if Lyrium IS the Titan? A vast organism spreading under and shaping the earth as it grows and moves? And the light under us in the wellspring, could that be the “heart” of the Titan? An especially large node of lyrium that all other parts of the Titan grow from, that is so vast it gives of light and heat? Is that how Mythal killed one and awoke the dwarf race, by claiming its heart/sun? I remember a mural in trespasser of a glowing sphere with rays of light emanating from it and a poem “My little stones, Never yours the sun. Forever, forever.” Am I onto something or am I mad? Anyway sorry for that little brain dump! I’ll noodle over it whilst I’m at work and come back with a cleaner and more in depth thoughts later!
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 3, 2020 0:10:24 GMT
It could be both. It could be the blood of a Titan, as well as an organism in its own right. Lyrium is "alive", as evidenced by the fact it can be infected by Taint. And it keeps living, and growing, even if separated from the place it grew originally.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 3, 2020 1:03:04 GMT
Sorry if this makes no sense and will initially be brief as I’ve got to dash out to work, but a thought just came to me whilst i was in the shower and I have commit it to text before I forget! So lyrium. We commonly refer to it as Titans blood, but what if Lyrium IS the Titan? A vast organism spreading under and shaping the earth as it grows and moves? And the light under us in the wellspring, could that be the “heart” of the Titan? An especially large node of lyrium that all other parts of the Titan grow from, that is so vast it gives of light and heat? Is that how Mythal killed one and awoke the dwarf race, by claiming its heart/sun? I remember a mural in trespasser of a glowing sphere with rays of light emanating from it and a poem “My little stones, Never yours the sun. Forever, forever.” Am I onto something or am I mad? Anyway sorry for that little brain dump! I’ll noodle over it whilst I’m at work and come back with a cleaner and more in depth thoughts later!
The Titan is a Transformer (a titan is the name of a giant transformer that transform into cities/bases and giant spaceships) and it came to or crash landed on Thedas millions of years ago to colonize the planet. Lyrium is another name of Energon that the locals call it and Red Lyrium is toxic Engeron created by the ancient Elves who were fooling around with it and made them paranoid and power hungry except for Solas and Mythal who didn't mess with it and when they killed Mythal, Solas became or transformed into the Dread Wolf and started a war and the we know how that turned out. Those dwaves that you fight in Decent are decedents of ancient dwaves who found the Titan and tried to talked to it this drove them insane because only certain Transformers called City Speakers can do that (the most well known one is an Autobot named Windblade) and became it's unwitting guardians.
Pretty much this a lot of insanity but unless Hasbro buys EA or there is a Transformers/Dragon Age crossover which could happen the Transformers have crossed over with Star Trek: The Animated Series, The Terminator, The Ghostbusters, and a Back to the Future crossover is in the works (the latter two even have brand new Transformers characters that transform into the the Ecto-1 and the Time Machine named Ectrotran, and Gigawatt respectfully). And there was that in-joke about metal giants on a landmark in the Western Approach in DAI.
Garrus was the name of Autobot Prison and the Decepticons also defeated the Reapers in the original IDW Transformers comics continuity.
So you knows?
The hobbies/interests/passions that have connections to The Transformers in my life is at times overwhelming.
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Post by nova on Jul 3, 2020 1:10:26 GMT
I thought the Evanuris called Titans Pillars of the Earth because their bodies were mountains...but the idea that lyrium is alive on it's own is a fascinating one. Or, I guess, a super disconcerting idea, in the case of red lyrium. As for "Never yours the sun," that was a warning. Mythal was trying to protect the dwarves from Elgar'nan. An elven viddathari left behind a series of notes in Trespasser's Deep Roads. The first note points out that the statues of Mythal and Fen'Harel appear to be guarding the area. In the second note the elf recalls that his Keeper told him, "dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire." In the third note, the elf recites the poem: "Written beside each elven line is a corresponding phrase, likely a translation: I am empty, filled with nothing(?), Mythal gives you dreams. It fills you, within you(?), Making our leaders proud. My little stones, Never yours the sun. Forever, forever. Hahren said we had lost some of the old words. What if they have changed? Durgen'lin from durgen'len? Little dwarves, never yours the sun? What did Mythal do here?" The idea that the Evanuris posed a threat to the dwarves is also mentioned in this codex by a dwarf who was studying the ruins in the Hissing Wastes: "I was tracing heraldry etched on a wall when I noticed pictures of weapons with winged lizards worked into the decoration. I spent the rest of the day translating the inscriptions. This verse was apparently passed down through Fairel's house, through his father to his father's father and so on for hundred of generations: "From the Stone, have no fear of anything, but the stone-less sky betrays with wings of flame. If the surface must be breached, if there is no other way, bring weapons against the urtok, and heed their screams." "Urtok" means "dragon." Why was it part of an ancient crest? Why were these dwarves so worried about a monster they'd never see that they worked it into their weapons? This place becomes more impossible each day." This suggests that after the war with the Titans, Elgar'nan wanted to claim the severed dwarves as spoils of war. Or perhaps he simply wanted to destroy them all outright. Mythal and Fen'Harel seemed to have tried to protect them from him. Maybe this source of conflict is what led to her death?
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Post by Suaimhneas on Jul 3, 2020 4:45:17 GMT
It could be both. It could be the blood of a Titan, as well as an organism in its own right. Lyrium is "alive", as evidenced by the fact it can be infected by Taint. And it keeps living, and growing, even if separated from the place it grew originally. The good ol' big bad gives birth to lesser bad thing, but with minerals!
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 3, 2020 6:40:52 GMT
It could be both. It could be the blood of a Titan, as well as an organism in its own right. Lyrium is "alive", as evidenced by the fact it can be infected by Taint. And it keeps living, and growing, even if separated from the place it grew originally. The good ol' big bad gives birth to lesser bad thing, but with minerals! Lol. I hadn't thought of it that way in particular, just that, being a creature made of rock, it's biology would be unlike that of a human (not that biology in Thedas even follows Earth rules to begin with, lol), so calling Lyrium the "blood" of a Titan gets the basic idea across, but isn't necessarily a 1:1 comparison.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 3, 2020 8:55:55 GMT
As for "Never yours the sun," that was a warning. Mythal was trying to protect the dwarves from Elgar'nan. This suggests that after the war with the Titans, Elgar'nan wanted to claim the severed dwarves as spoils of war. Or perhaps he simply wanted to destroy them all outright. Mythal and Fen'Harel seemed to have tried to protect them from him. Maybe this source of conflict is what led to her death? There is an alternative explanation and that is Mythal was not some saviour of the dwarves but their captor and enslaver. The codices in her Temple describe them as "witless" but that may be how the ancient elves viewed any race that did not possess magic and did not have a spiritual connection with the Fade. The racial memory of the dwarves as the Stone being their parent is probably true. They were the children of the Earth/Stone. When the ancient elves invaded the earth from the Fade (because I am convinced that they were originally spirits that took on material forms) their use of magic disturbed the titans (just as it does in the Descent) and resulted in earthquakes that destroyed the initial elven creations. So Elgar'nan and Mythal waged war on the titans and either killed or subdued them. It seems likely that it was the latter and somehow Mythal was able to send them to sleep. She then did something to the dwarves (see our discussion about the Sha'Brytol on Heimdall's video thread), giving them dreams but severing them from the Stone forever. (This is the Sun referred to symbolically although it could also have meant the sun literally as well, as Elgar'nan would not now allow anything to do with their former enemy on the face of the earth). The dwarves mining lyrium probably dates to this time as they would have no use for it before. When Mythal was killed and the other Evanuris shut away, this freed the dwarves from their control, except those that Mythal had changed by "giving them dreams" which I think may have been the Sha'Brytol that she charged with protecting the source of her lyrium. When they die these poor dwarves become the cursed rock wraiths. In the Descent Valta says that the titan has no need of the Sha'Brytol's protection so clearly they were not acting on its orders. Nor was the titan soothed by their presence but instead by Valta, a normal dwarf, with whom it connected. So lyrium. We commonly refer to it as Titans blood, but what if Lyrium IS the Titan? A vast organism spreading under and shaping the earth as it grows and moves? This could well be true. The elves described them varyingly as the "pillars of the earth" or simply "the Earth". It is also possible that the "Sun" in the Dalish myth that Elgar'nan fights is in fact a titan. The mural in Trespasser showing them killing/subduing a titan seems to hint as an actual giant being but that could have just been a symbolic way of depicting the enemy so Mythal's subjects could understand it. In the Dalish myth Elgar'nan is described as the firstborn of the sun. This would make sense if he was the first to leave the Fade and on touching the Earth acquired a material form. In the battle with the Sun, its blood is shed, creating the stars. This now always makes me think of droplets of lyrium scattered across the sky/Fade (it is the only substance that is found both there and on the earth). Elgar'nan is then said to have cast down the Sun and Mythal, who arose from the sea/water in response to the anguish their fight caused, made a pillow for the sun in the earth where it could sleep. So this tale could well describe how Mythal quietened the titan(s) to prevent the possibility of further conflict. To keep Elgar'nan appeased she undertook to keep the children/servants of the Sun/Earth away from Elgar'nan's domain. If the lyrium is sentient, then may be it is not so much blood as an extension of the titan, helping it mould the earth. Originally we were told that lyrium was a mineral and that would be because the stuff the dwarves mine is solid rather than liquid. So either it is dried blood from a dead titan or possibly in an interim stage between being liquid and true stone. Either way, I am a lot less happy now about the use of lyrium. We have no way yet of knowing which came first, red lyrium or the Blight but when we were in the Temple of Sacred Ashes at the beginning of DAI and Varric is questioning how red lyrium got there, Solas mutters something about the use of magic. So it is possible that it was misuse of magic that originally corrupted some lyrium/a titan and the Blight grew from there rather than the other way around.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 3, 2020 9:28:40 GMT
Is it stated anywhere that Lyrium originates as a liquid? Considering that we're talking about beings of stone, referring to it as "blood" may just be a best closest comparison, not necessarily an indicator of how it actually functions.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 3, 2020 9:31:21 GMT
And the light under us in the wellspring, could that be the “heart” of the Titan? An especially large node of lyrium that all other parts of the Titan grow from, that is so vast it gives of light and heat?
It has suddenly occurred to me that you may have hit on an explanation for why the titan may be referred to as both the Sun and the Earth by the ancient elves.
When we attack inside the Wellspring, the heart generates this Guardian from the lyrium. At full power one of these guardians would probably seem it shone like the sun, bits breaking off and being scattered would be lyrium and any pictures of the battle would depict a giant being defeated and it is also shown with a shining heart. In the mural in the Descent, its defeat turns it a reddish brown (could be ominous).
This being the case the heart and the lyrium that flow from it could be the titan within the Stone. Even the elves may have thought that the Guardians were the Pillars of the Earth rather than simply offshoots from the main being on being threatened.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 3, 2020 9:34:10 GMT
Is it stated anywhere that Lyrium originates as a liquid? Well in the Descent it is streaming down the walls and sloshing about as a mighty sea, so it would appear to be liquid. I am guessing the crystalline/mineral form is when it has solidified, like dried blood. Then pressure from the rocks turns it into the lyrium crystals that the dwarves mine.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 3, 2020 10:44:31 GMT
Is it stated anywhere that Lyrium originates as a liquid? Well in the Descent it is streaming down the walls and sloshing about as a mighty sea, so it would appear to be liquid. I am guessing the crystalline/mineral form is when it has solidified, like dried blood. Then pressure from the rocks turns it into the lyrium crystals that the dwarves mine. Hmmm... I don't love that, aesthetically. It would be more interesting to me if the Titans were more rock-like/alien in nature. But oh well. What bugs me most about Lyrium is that it is starting to feel like the DA version of Unobtainium, a substance that simply does whatever the plot demands, when it demands it. Not that a mineral can't have more than one function (many do irl), but having it perform two *opposing* functions (enhancing magic and counteracting magic) just makes me feel like they didn't really think it through at the time. If a mage drinks it they get more magic, if you stick it in clothes or weapons, THEY get magic. But if a templar drinks it they get anti-magic abilities, if you're branded on the forehead with it, you're disconnected from the Fade and from emotions, unless a spirit does... something to you, and then you'll either be normal again OR get new abilities, who's to say? And if the lyrium gets tainted? HOO boy well you might go mad the minute you see it, or over the course of years, or not at all, and it might give you absurd powers. And if it somehow gets inside you, well, who the fuck knows?
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Post by nova on Jul 3, 2020 11:11:06 GMT
As for "Never yours the sun," that was a warning. Mythal was trying to protect the dwarves from Elgar'nan. This suggests that after the war with the Titans, Elgar'nan wanted to claim the severed dwarves as spoils of war. Or perhaps he simply wanted to destroy them all outright. Mythal and Fen'Harel seemed to have tried to protect them from him. Maybe this source of conflict is what led to her death? There is an alternative explanation and that is Mythal was not some saviour of the dwarves but their captor and enslaver. The codices in her Temple describe them as "witless" but that may be how the ancient elves viewed any race that did not possess magic and did not have a spiritual connection with the Fade. I never said Mythal was a savior. The poem suggests her treatment of the dwarves veered heavily toward paternalism. That doesn't change the point though, which is that Mythal was shielding the dwarves from Elgar'nan. Both "dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire" and "the stone-less sky betrays with wings of flame" point to Elgar'nan as the "sun" in "never yours the sun." Or, if you'd prefer, the threat of Elgar'nan is why Mythal denied the dwarves the sun.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 3, 2020 11:12:03 GMT
Hmmm... I don't love that, aesthetically. It would be more interesting to me if the Titans were more rock-like/alien in nature. But oh well. Well I was never too happy with how they made the jump from it being an inert mineral to being organic and alive to being blood. The red lyrium caused madness didn't surprise me considering that is what ordinary lyrium does if you have too much exposure to it. What surprised me was that in the Descent our mage companions ought to have been having blood pouring from their ears and dying from internal haemorrhaging with that much lyrium around them, so apparently it is only when it crystalises that it becomes lethal. It is also peculiar that it is said to appear in the Fade and thus is considered to be a bridge between worlds. That would explain its magic enhancing properties but not why lyrium brands do the opposite. As for Templar powers, Solas did explain to Cassandra that they are reinforcing reality with their magic and apparently the Viddasala was working on a similar principle using sarebaas powered up with lyrium but that proved to be a bad idea. Lyrium does seem to be the catch all substance that they use to explain practically every sort of strange phenomenon. I was more comfortable with this when it was just a substance that could be found throughout creation. The moment it becomes the actual blood of some earthbound being what reacts adversely to magic, it might explain the lyrium brand blocking magic but it becomes rather harder to understand why its blood also promotes magic use. It is not blood magic because apparently that requires an element of violence and pain at the time you want the power and with lyrium potions it is literally just the substance, refined from raw lyrium, so completely detached from any emotions that might have been attached to the creature you obtained it from. Of course if it is just the blood in blood magic that provides the power then that would explain it but according to WoT (which may of course not be accurate on the subject) blood alone is not enough, you need the violence and pain for it to work. I don't suppose the properties and functions of lyrium will ever be properly explained because I doubt the writers have figured out to reconcile all the contradictions themselves.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 3, 2020 11:26:54 GMT
That doesn't change the point though, which is that Mythal was shielding the dwarves from Elgar'nan. Shielding as in protecting them out of concern for them or simply ensuring her lyrium mining workforce stayed safe? How do we know she didn't approve of Elgar'nan immolating any dwarves he found on the surface? Whatever she did kept them underground but I just question whether it was done out of concern for their safety. Let's face it, in the eyes of the ancient elves only elves were People. So when Solas says that Mythal protected her people, he only means the elves who followed her. It is interesting that the memory that shows thousands of workers moulding the Stone into a giant statue of Elgar'nan never actually says they are elves. I'm inclined to think that in fact they were dwarves being forced to construct a statue to honour their conqueror that would stand as a constant reminder why they should remain underground. The "never yours the sun" could just refer to the surface world but I think there may be a more tragic interpretation and it was speaking of dwarves that would never again know the Sun that was the heart of a titan. Mythal gave them dreams, encouraged them to drink lyrium, and that separated them from the Sun/Stone/Earth so they could never return to it in death as normal dwarves do. They became the Sha'Brytol, protecting the titan but never knowing why and becoming rock wraiths on death. Don't you think it peculiar there should be so many rock wraiths in the ancient thaig where there was an idol made of lyrium that looks suspiciously like Mythal? Meanwhile the other dwarves were freed from enslavement to the elves by Mythal's death and the imprisonment of the Evanuris but continued to mine lyrium without remembering why they originally started to do so and continuing to be scarred by a racial memory that made them fear the surface.
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