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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 23, 2020 15:59:26 GMT
Inspired from a dream I had last night, that a series of mundane unrelated side quests that will have Shepard indoctrinated fully that the revealed of the indoctrination of Shepard will unlock the 5th new ending. Shepard blows his brains out and ME turns into Persona 6?
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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 23, 2020 16:36:13 GMT
Come on guys, seriously? Are we now accusing the ME trilogy of not having enough consequences to choices? I don't know about you but I am not aware of any other game(s) that has as much variety in outcomes based on player choice as the ME trilogy did. Yea sure, it's not every single character but IMO that even makes it more realistic. I wouldn't expect myself to be the absolute nexus of everything around me, neither should Shepard be. I really don't see basis to say that the ME trilogy of all games suffers from a lack of choice & consequence, that's just ridiculous (and I certainly wouldn't expect a remaster to change anything about that anyway). I disagree. If the consequences to your choices are, at best, lackluster, inadequate at worst, people won't care how "impressive" your end result is. Evidently. Call it "fan entitlement", if you want, I call it "lack of fan support in future titles" as has been proven multiple times since. Nobody has faith in Bioware anymore. You disagree with the notion that the ME trilogy has the most varied choices and consequences in games that have those kinds of production values and cinematic presentation? THen please, tell me which other game or game series does? I can only think of two that come close: The Witcher and Alpha Protocol and none og them quite reaches the variety that the MET offers.
Don't get me wrong, it's ok to want more and better. Who doesn't? What I am trying to say here is that it's IMO not valid to say that the MET messed it up in any way. That's like saying Michael Jordan really botched his basketball career or something. Could be have been improved? SUre but it's still one of the best in the business.
And the fact that BioWare has lost a lot of faith with the fans is hardly due to the MET's handling of choices, I'd say.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 23, 2020 17:33:38 GMT
You disagree with the notion that the ME trilogy has the most varied choices and consequences in games that have those kinds of production values and cinematic presentation? Yes, yes I do. Because they're not choices, just consequences. THen please, tell me which other game or game series does? Baldur's gate, Fallout, KotoR, NWN, any other series that offers choices, really. I rank ME really low. Don't get me wrong, it's ok to want more and better. Who doesn't? What I am trying to say here is that it's IMO not valid to say that the MET messed it up in any way I think it is absolutely valid. Not only that, but we've had conversations multiple times over the years about it. Your choices don't matter, the consequences are the same. At this point, if you think ME had choice and consequence, you can argue it on principle, but not to effect. That's like saying Michael Jordan really botched his basketball career or something No. It's nothing like that. Could be have been improved? SUre but it's still one of the best in the business. No, MJ is the best regardless. That's a fact. And the fact that BioWare has lost a lot of faith with the fans is hardly due to the MET's handling of choices, I'd say. It could be forgiven. I have no doubt. The way Bioware handled it and the way the press rushed to Bioware's defense did no favours to Bioware, though. At which point, the gap seems nearly untraversable nowadays.
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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 23, 2020 17:42:28 GMT
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Just one point of order, I do agree that there are other games out there that have more intricate c&c and you mentioned some of them (like BG and Fallout). But I do think presentation matters. Doing this with texts is way easier than if you have to cinematically present every dialogue in every permutation.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 23, 2020 18:00:27 GMT
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. Agreed. Just one point of order, I do agree that there are other games out there that have more intricate c&c and you mentioned some of them (like BG and Fallout). But I do think presentation matters. Doing this with texts is way easier than if you have to cinematically present every dialogue in every permutation. Agreed. But ideally, we progressed in terms of production value and hardware, exactly for the reason to scale those choices up, in terms of presentation. Not to scale back.
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Post by AnDromedary on Oct 23, 2020 18:11:52 GMT
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. Agreed. Just one point of order, I do agree that there are other games out there that have more intricate c&c and you mentioned some of them (like BG and Fallout). But I do think presentation matters. Doing this with texts is way easier than if you have to cinematically present every dialogue in every permutation. Agreed. But ideally, we progressed in terms of production value and hardware, exactly for the reason to scale those choices up, in terms of presentation. Not to scale back. True, though I think the bottle neck at this point is not so much the hardware anymore but more time, effort and costs since artists have to create those scenes.
My guess is that until we have a holodeck where Data wants a proper adversary and the computer creates a fully sentient Prof. Moriarty by itself in response, the trade-off between production values and permutation variety will not go away.
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Post by ClarkKent on Oct 23, 2020 18:28:42 GMT
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. Just one point of order, I do agree that there are other games out there that have more intricate c&c and you mentioned some of them (like BG and Fallout). But I do think presentation matters. Doing this with texts is way easier than if you have to cinematically present every dialogue in every permutation. This is true. Comparing a text based RPG to a cinematic one is totally unfair. The Mass Effect trilogy, amongst AAA rpgs that span multiple games, is basically unrivalled in terms of the level of choice and consequence. That doesn't speak too much of it's quality mind, just that it's the only series that's ever attempted anything close, and likely the last, because it's such a monumental undertaking with very little rewards, and lots of risk. It is interesting actually how the Witcher games never get any stick for ignoring the decisions players made in Witcher 2 going into Witcher 3. Heck, at least characters like Thane and Grunt got cool moments in Mass Effect 3 - my man Iorveth got totally shunted.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 23, 2020 18:28:54 GMT
My guess is that until we have a holodeck where Data wants a proper adversary and the computer creates a fully sentient Prof. Moriarty by itself in response, the trade-off between production values and permutation variety will not go away. That is virtually closer than you think. It won't be a holodeck, well, not in the strict sense of the holodeck, but we're nearly there.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 23, 2020 19:02:37 GMT
Just one point of order, I do agree that there are other games out there that have more intricate c&c and you mentioned some of them (like BG and Fallout). But I do think presentation matters. Doing this with texts is way easier than if you have to cinematically present every dialogue in every permutation. Agreed. But ideally, we progressed in terms of production value and hardware, exactly for the reason to scale those choices up, in terms of presentation. Not to scale back. Alpha Protocol came out around the time of DA2, had a smaller budget than ME3, and had more/better choices and consequences than ME3.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 23, 2020 19:05:40 GMT
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. Just one point of order, I do agree that there are other games out there that have more intricate c&c and you mentioned some of them (like BG and Fallout). But I do think presentation matters. Doing this with texts is way easier than if you have to cinematically present every dialogue in every permutation. This is true. Comparing a text based RPG to a cinematic one is totally unfair. The Mass Effect trilogy, amongst AAA rpgs that span multiple games, is basically unrivalled in terms of the level of choice and consequence. That doesn't speak too much of it's quality mind, just that it's the only series that's ever attempted anything close, and likely the last, because it's such a monumental undertaking with very little rewards, and lots of risk. It is interesting actually how the Witcher games never get any stick for ignoring the decisions players made in Witcher 2 going into Witcher 3. Heck, at least characters like Thane and Grunt got cool moments in Mass Effect 3 - my man Iorveth got totally shunted. This is why I think choices shouldn't carry over. It's a pita to implement, is rarely done well, and just creates more baggage. It's largely why I was willing to give MEA a chance, as it was pretty obviously a soft reboot. But that game had its own problems.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 23, 2020 21:14:15 GMT
Agreed. But ideally, we progressed in terms of production value and hardware, exactly for the reason to scale those choices up, in terms of presentation. Not to scale back. Alpha Protocol came out around the time of DA2, had a smaller budget than ME3, and had more/better choices and consequences than ME3. I miss that that game. 😢
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 23, 2020 21:31:36 GMT
Alpha Protocol came out around the time of DA2, had a smaller budget than ME3, and had more/better choices and consequences than ME3. Alpha Protocol is one of my favourite games of last gen. True story, I got it 2 days before release. I got connections.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 23, 2020 22:02:57 GMT
Alpha Protocol came out around the time of DA2, had a smaller budget than ME3, and had more/better choices and consequences than ME3. Alpha Protocol is one of my favourite games of last gen. True story, I got it 2 days before release. I got connections. I got it for a bargain. But I liked playing it more than ME3.
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Post by KaiserShep on Oct 24, 2020 8:38:58 GMT
Once again though, this can really be attributed to the powerfully detestable ending of ME3 above all else. Mostly, not entirely. Just like TLJ is a bad movie, but it only really shits the bed, once it kills Luke Skywalker. But even keeping Luke alive, would not have made it a good movie. It's still the worst movie in the franchise. For all the faults in the transition between games and the “tweaks” BioWare made to certain choices along the way, it’s really just that big dumb ending that invalided the choices made specifically in ME3 that really got everyone worked up. If not for that color-coded wank of a final act, the whinging about the nitty gritty of choices carrying over trilogy-wide would be far less impactful True. The possibility of a continuation or an open ending would alleviate a lot of the complaints. There's always next time and that would allow for a "next time", unlike the ending we got. Heck just look at ME2 in its totality. The game is dumb as shit and invalidates just about everything you did in ME1, but its own ending is so gratifying that no one cares about the other stuff. Not quite. I don't agree that it's dumb. I'd argue its masterfully executed, from exposition, to dialogue, to cinematography, the character vignettes, the missions, everything. ME2 makes sure that every concession you made going from ME1 to ME2 was worth the sacrifice. It is an absolute marvel. Individually. ME would be much smaller a franchise, had ME2 not existed, the way it did. ME3 is where it turns really dumb. Butchering characters, dumb dialogue, plot contrivances and character benchings. ME3 starts terribly (we fight or we die), plateaus with Mars, peaks at Tuchanka, dives off a cliff with Rannoch, no pun intended Talimancers, has some individual brights spots, are largely pertaining to ME2 crew members, but never recovers and on top of that, it then Amber Turds the endings. There is maybe 2 worthwhile concessions in the entire game and everything else is "why couldn't we get more of this" which is usually ME2 crew stuff, "instead of this" which is entirely lackluster Cerberus plots that contribute nothing to the story, but Bioware needed them to pad their game and distract from the fact that the Reapers are extras in their own game. So no, I don't agree how you equate ME2 and ME3, in terms of content. I’d argue that TLJ started shitting the bed a lot earlier than that. If your first battle, involving a faction getting slowly crushed under the heel of a maniacal hegemony is kicked off with a crank call and yo mama joke, it’s clear things are already on the fast track to disaster. ME2’s presented very well, obviously from the acclaim it gets, but that doesn’t really change the overall nonsensical plot points, the occasional cheap shock drama that’s immediately deflated, like Shepard’s “death”, and the sort. It muscles through all that with snappy dialogue, fun characters and satisfying arcs to various storylines. It’s no smarter in its internal logic than the other games, but it covers all that stuff up with a lot of fun traipsing through the armpits of the galaxy that ends on a high note.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 24, 2020 14:20:50 GMT
I’d argue that TLJ started shitting the bed a lot earlier than that. If your first battle, involving a faction getting slowly crushed under the heel of a maniacal hegemony is kicked off with a crank call and yo mama joke, it’s clear things are already on the fast track to disaster. Oh, absolutely. TLJ doesn't escape the fact that it's a bad movie regardless. But you can forgive and forget a bad Star Wars movie, especially coming off from a very good one, like Rogue One. But it did Luke so dirty, it just killed the franchise. ME2’s presented very well, obviously from the acclaim it gets, but that doesn’t really change the overall nonsensical plot points, the occasional cheap shock drama that’s immediately deflated, like Shepard’s “death”, and the sort. It muscles through all that with snappy dialogue, fun characters and satisfying arcs to various storylines. It’s no smarter in its internal logic than the other games, but it covers all that stuff up with a lot of fun traipsing through the armpits of the galaxy that ends on a high note. That's ... praise. A testament on how good of a job it did to subset every sacrifice it required from its audience, in terms of gameplay and narrative, to deliver a game experience that, as I said before, individually, you can't fault it. As I've also said before, nobody put a gun to Bioware's head to make the ME3 that we got. If something wasn't resolved in ME2? Make an ME3 that does. It's going to sell. The franchise is still healthy after ME2, in fact at the height of its popularity. You've got both the potential and the authority on the franchise to do so. They chose not to. Which means that the ME3 we got, regardless of what ME2 did, is the game Bioware would make, at the time, regardless and shifting the blame to what ME2 didn't do, doesn't fix ME3's problems.
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Post by KaiserShep on Oct 24, 2020 14:34:30 GMT
I’d argue that TLJ started shitting the bed a lot earlier than that. If your first battle, involving a faction getting slowly crushed under the heel of a maniacal hegemony is kicked off with a crank call and yo mama joke, it’s clear things are already on the fast track to disaster. Oh, absolutely. TLJ doesn't escape the fact that it's a bad movie regardless. But you can forgive and forget a bad Star Wars movie, especially coming off from a very good one, like Rogue One. But it did Luke so dirty, it just killed the franchise. ME2’s presented very well, obviously from the acclaim it gets, but that doesn’t really change the overall nonsensical plot points, the occasional cheap shock drama that’s immediately deflated, like Shepard’s “death”, and the sort. It muscles through all that with snappy dialogue, fun characters and satisfying arcs to various storylines. It’s no smarter in its internal logic than the other games, but it covers all that stuff up with a lot of fun traipsing through the armpits of the galaxy that ends on a high note. That's ... praise. A testament on how good of a job it did to subset every sacrifice it required from its audience, in terms of gameplay and narrative, to deliver a game experience that, as I said before, individually, you can't fault it. As I've also said before, nobody put a gun to Bioware's head to make the ME3 that we got. If something wasn't resolved in ME2? Make an ME3 that does. It's going to sell. The franchise is still healthy after ME2, in fact at the height of its popularity. You've got both the potential and the authority on the franchise to do so. They chose not to. Which means that the ME3 we got, regardless of what ME2 did, is the game Bioware would make, at the time, regardless and shifting the blame to what ME2 didn't do, doesn't fix ME3's problems. As much as I hate these movies, I don’t think it’s fair to really level all of the biggest issues on just the second film. I would even go so far as to say that TLJ was more like the injury that put the franchise in the hospital, but ROS the pillow that suffocated it in its hospital bed. I think Abrams and Kennedy are worse than Johnson by an order of magnitude, and deserve much more of the ire than he does. They didn’t have to give Johnson a blank check. They could have shut down any of the bad decisions, but they didn’t. The point I was making is that for all the silly things that take away from the logic of the story, people would forgive it if it ended on a satisfying note. People will at least settle for emotional satisfaction if they can’t get airtight logic. If ME3’s ending made people happy (which shouldn’t be confused with an actual happy ending) the warts would not be such a prevailing issue.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Oct 24, 2020 14:50:45 GMT
Oh, absolutely. TLJ doesn't escape the fact that it's a bad movie regardless. But you can forgive and forget a bad Star Wars movie, especially coming off from a very good one, like Rogue One. But it did Luke so dirty, it just killed the franchise. That's ... praise. A testament on how good of a job it did to subset every sacrifice it required from its audience, in terms of gameplay and narrative, to deliver a game experience that, as I said before, individually, you can't fault it. As I've also said before, nobody put a gun to Bioware's head to make the ME3 that we got. If something wasn't resolved in ME2? Make an ME3 that does. It's going to sell. The franchise is still healthy after ME2, in fact at the height of its popularity. You've got both the potential and the authority on the franchise to do so. They chose not to. Which means that the ME3 we got, regardless of what ME2 did, is the game Bioware would make, at the time, regardless and shifting the blame to what ME2 didn't do, doesn't fix ME3's problems. As much as I hate these movies, I don’t think it’s fair to really level all of the biggest issues on just the second film. I would even go so far as to say that TLJ was more like the injury that put the franchise in the hospital, but ROS the pillow that suffocated it in its hospital bed. I think Abrams and Kennedy are worse than Johnson by an order of magnitude, and deserve much more of the ire than he does. They didn’t have to give Johnson a blank check. They could have shut down any of the bad decisions, but they didn’t. The point I was making is that for all the silly things that take away from the logic of the story, people would forgive it if it ended on a satisfying note. People will at least settle for emotional satisfaction if they can’t get airtight logic. If ME3’s ending made people happy (which shouldn’t be confused with an actual happy ending) the warts would not be such a prevailing issue.
I'd say TLJ killed star wars, ROS just took the corpse off life support. There was no recovering from TLJ at the end of the movie the entire resistance could fit on the millennium falcon comfortably, they had destroyed the most iconic character, and the enemy big boss was gone replaced by a petulant child. And that is ignoring all the terrible lore screw ups, nonsensical story arcs, crap dialogue etc. There is no recovering from that.
Overall I agree with your point. I think if ME2 had continued in a similar tone as ME1, they'd need more from ME3. But they transitioned to big action movie style, so as long as ME3 had a fun ending I think it would have stuck the landing.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 24, 2020 15:05:41 GMT
As much as I hate these movies, I don’t think it’s fair to really level all of the biggest issues on just the second film. I would even go so far as to say that TLJ was more like the injury that put the franchise in the hospital, but ROS the pillow that suffocated it in its hospital bed Let's be honest, TLJ was so bad and final that it left practically no hooks for Abrams to do anything. Not that I don't agree that it killed the franchise, but it was already dead. Or mostly dead. It's like ... suffering a fatal injury in a car crash, where you're not dead yet, there are paramedics on the spot, they take you to the hospital, the doctor sees you're a mess and basically a barely clinging to life corpse, tries to save you regardless, but botches the surgery. Like, I had no expectations of Jar Jar Abrams saving the sequel trilogy. It was done. Even had we got Colin Trevorow's version of episode 9, it involved having Kylo Ren as a believable threat, who was absolutely destroyed, alongside General Hux. The First Order was a joke, with 5 ships left and the Resistance was a failure, of 12 people stuck in the Millennium Falcon. There was nothing left to save. Unlike with ME2. I think Abrams and Kennedy are worse than Johnson by an order of magnitude, and deserve much more of the ire than he does. They didn’t have to give Johnson a blank check. They could have shut down any of the bad decisions, but they didn’t. Abrams wasn't involved actively with Episode 8. Rian Johnson, according to Daisy Ridley, threw everything Abrams had outlined in the trash and did his own thing. With the full support of Kathleen Kennedy. Not to say that Abrams did nothing wrong, but in all honesty, he did the job he was hired to do, as described by Bob Iger, in his autobiographical book, where Episode 7 was supposed to be a rehash of A New Hope and from there, Disney would make their trilogy as emblematic as the OT. As much as I hate JJ work, it's not like he had a choice. Other than not taking the job. The point I was making is that for all the silly things that take away from the logic of the story, people would forgive it if it ended on a satisfying note. People will at least settle for emotional satisfaction if they can’t get airtight logic. If ME3’s ending made people happy (which shouldn’t be confused with an actual happy ending) the warts would not be such a prevailing issue. Absolutely.
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Post by KaiserShep on Oct 24, 2020 15:40:15 GMT
As much as I hate these movies, I don’t think it’s fair to really level all of the biggest issues on just the second film. I would even go so far as to say that TLJ was more like the injury that put the franchise in the hospital, but ROS the pillow that suffocated it in its hospital bed. I think Abrams and Kennedy are worse than Johnson by an order of magnitude, and deserve much more of the ire than he does. They didn’t have to give Johnson a blank check. They could have shut down any of the bad decisions, but they didn’t. The point I was making is that for all the silly things that take away from the logic of the story, people would forgive it if it ended on a satisfying note. People will at least settle for emotional satisfaction if they can’t get airtight logic. If ME3’s ending made people happy (which shouldn’t be confused with an actual happy ending) the warts would not be such a prevailing issue.
I'd say TLJ killed star wars, ROS just took the corpse off life support. There was no recovering from TLJ at the end of the movie the entire resistance could fit on the millennium falcon comfortably, they had destroyed the most iconic character, and the enemy big boss was gone replaced by a petulant child. And that is ignoring all the terrible lore screw ups, nonsensical story arcs, crap dialogue etc. There is no recovering from that.
Overall I agree with your point. I think if ME2 had continued in a similar tone as ME1, they'd need more from ME3. But they transitioned to big action movie style, so as long as ME3 had a fun ending I think it would have stuck the landing.
I’ll do you one better. ROS was like Weekend at Bernie’s, and Abrams took the corpse and put sunglasses on it, and made it go to a wild party while everyone looked on in horror.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Oct 24, 2020 17:15:40 GMT
I'm starting to wonder if Rian Johnson and Mac Walters had the same writing teachers...
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Nov 17, 2024 22:23:52 GMT
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Hanako Ikezawa
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August 2016
hanakoikezawa
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 24, 2020 17:42:02 GMT
Ugh, can we keep the Star Wars bashing out of here please? It’s own thread has already been permanently infested to the point you can’t talk about anything else so keep it from spreading.
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Oct 13, 2023 22:02:03 GMT
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natetrace
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Jul 13, 2017 17:36:20 GMT
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natetrace
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Post by natetrace on Oct 24, 2020 17:46:29 GMT
I see so much bashing of TLJ here which is weird considering it’s the third best one...
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Scribbles
185
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Nov 17, 2024 22:23:52 GMT
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Hanako Ikezawa
22,991
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 24, 2020 18:42:02 GMT
I see so much bashing of TLJ here which is weird considering it’s the third best one... I wouldn’t say third best, but definitely not the worst or one of the worst. Also definitely the prettiest of the films. So many gorgeous shots in it.
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Nov 26, 2024 22:51:57 GMT
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ClarkKent
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Aug 17, 2016 20:27:17 GMT
August 2016
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Post by ClarkKent on Oct 24, 2020 18:42:14 GMT
I've never liked this weird argument that Mass Effect 2 ruined the series. The story might have been altered to include some more generic space Cthullu, but there's no guarantee that the resulting game would get a 96 on Metacritic, introduce a bunch of characters that people will remember forever, and bring the series enough following and interest that people are willing to shout about the shitty endings of said series ten years after the fact. It brings me back to the classic phrase 'if my aunty had wheels she would be a bike'.
It just seems bizarre that one of the highest rated games of all time could be a 'mistake'. Really Mass Effect 1 was most at fault for introducing the impossible to defeat angsty villain in the first place, when the setting was going great without it.
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Glorious Star Lord
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KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
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August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Oct 24, 2020 19:44:44 GMT
I've never liked this weird argument that Mass Effect 2 ruined the series. The story might have been altered to include some more generic space Cthullu, but there's no guarantee that the resulting game would get a 96 on Metacritic, introduce a bunch of characters that people will remember forever, and bring the series enough following and interest that people are willing to shout about the shitty endings of said series ten years after the fact. It brings me back to the classic phrase 'if my aunty had wheels she would be a bike'. It just seems bizarre that one of the highest rated games of all time could be a 'mistake'. Really Mass Effect 1 was most at fault for introducing the impossible to defeat angsty villain in the first place, when the setting was going great without it. I don’t think “ruined” is the right word, but I do think that ME2 introduced a level of simplification that BioWare could probably not have bothered with. I feel like the gameplay, hub world design, combat arenas and the skill and dialogue systems didn’t really do the trilogy much good, and unfortunately, the latter of that lot only got worse with ME3’s glut of auto dialogue. BioWare was clearly showing their penchant for overcorrection. Had it not been for the robustness of their asset usage and set pieces, the game could very well have fallen into the same trap as Dragon Age 2, a hugely scaled down system that felt rushed (because it was). I kind of regard Mass Effect 2 like Star Trek: Deep Space 9 and its shift away from the general tone of The Next Generation. The series was generally good, and gave us a different perspective of that universe without sacrificing its spirit, but then from there the franchise started to go overboard and kind of lose itself in the nonsense and overindulgence in its melodrama.
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