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Post by themikefest on Jul 12, 2020 16:05:43 GMT
Were the reapers hibernating for 50,000 years, or was it a guess made by Vigil? Maybe the reapers spend the 50,000 at club darkspace drinking, dancing and talking smack at each other bragging about which one killed the most organics in the previous cycle? Did the hologram Vigil also assume the reapers were trapped in darkspace? At the end of ME1, Shepard says the reapers are out there and is going to find some way to stop them. Sounds like she/he believes they're not trapped in darkspace.
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Post by Radec on Jul 12, 2020 18:33:51 GMT
ME1 and 2 should largely be left alone. They aren't perfect but by videogame standards the writing is fine. Touch up the visuals and improve 1's inventory bloat so i don't spend half the game's runtime turning useless trash into credits/omni gel
3 needs an entire rewrite to even make any sense. From the basic premise being flawed (Reapers can simply fly through 300 odd years of Darkspace in like 6 months to attack the galaxy rendering the plots of 1 and 2 entirely nonsensical) to even the subplots (particularly the massive retcons of the geth to appear more humanlike/sympathetic and the idiotic resolution to their arc) it's not even really worth trying to rescue it.
But I'd rather move forward or even sideways ala Andromeda 2 than back.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 12, 2020 20:36:58 GMT
I just realized if EA/BioWare does release, shall we call it a more extreme remaster of the MET like making the combat more fun like in MEA and has Shepard use thermal clips, omi blades, jump jets, in all 3 games and none of that overheat crap in ME1 (I mean seriously I'm playing ME1 and I can't stand that overheat crap) and have to re-write the lore to make those standard or maybe stuff like young asari like Liara to be able to have babies more easily (the codex in ME1 does state it can happen it's just extremely rare), or the whole thing about swallowing the DNA of turians and quarians (you know for various sexual activities) not making humans sick (or just killing them) and vice versa some of that lore would have to be you know *gulp* *gasp* *shock* *shudders* changed.
OK, I'm being a bit hyperbolic (but not by much) but I'm already starting to dread that any changes made to the precious lore of the Mass Effect Universe even if it makes sense a remastered version now just imagine the sheer amount of various, raging and stupid shit storms that will come over the basic question: Is the original version or the remaster version is the "true" version of the MET?
That I'm not looking forward too at all.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Jul 12, 2020 23:06:46 GMT
I'm with Radec. The game that by far needs the most work is ME3. ME1 is ok enough, ME2 is what I would consider closest to perfection, and ME3 has its virtues but definitely hasn't aged all that great all things considered.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 12, 2020 23:11:40 GMT
I'm with Radec. The game that by far needs the most work is ME3. ME1 is ok enough, ME2 is what I would consider closest to perfection, and ME3 has its virtues but definitely hasn't aged all that great all things considered. So long as Cerberus is charged and becomes a group you can ally with, along with a "humans becomes the dominant race" alternative ending, that's just fine by me.
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Post by Radec on Jul 13, 2020 2:31:37 GMT
I'm with Radec . The game that by far needs the most work is ME3. ME1 is ok enough, ME2 is what I would consider closest to perfection, and ME3 has its virtues but definitely hasn't aged all that great all things considered. To its credit it had arguably the best art direction and (action) gameplay of the trilogy. It's a good looking and sounding game that has fun combat. 1 and 2 simply need remasters. 3 would need a total remake ala FFVII, with extensive rewrites of plot, characters, really everything.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 13, 2020 2:51:26 GMT
From the basic premise being flawed (Reapers can simply fly through 300 odd years of Darkspace in like 6 months to attack the galaxy rendering the plots of 1 and 2 entirely nonsensical Meh. The Reapers locking themselves into a box they couldn't get out of was nonsensical in the first place. Don't blame ME3 for lampshading bad ME1 ideas. And what exactly was retconned about the geth? I don't recall there being much continuity to retcon.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 13, 2020 3:48:50 GMT
I think there is a point where maybe we shouldn’t be looking to Mass Effect as a franchise for certain things. Like, if we want to get away from “planet of hats” and simply have more “alien” aliens, then perhaps a universe with fewer species that exist within an intertwined community, like the one Mass Effect is framed with, would be better-suited. The more sufficiently odd and unintelligible the story’s aliens are, it’s a good chance that interactivity decreases with it. The game obviously won’t devote much time to us learning an alien language, or mannerisms, or anything else that might sap lots of time in exposition better suited for a movie or series. The franchise as a whole is inextricably tied to its hodgepodge of aliens, and there’s not much hope of just getting rid of them without removing most of the franchise with it. They’d might as well just move on and write something else. Mass Effect’s always had a more optimistic view of cooperation (or at least its potential) between the various races of the galaxy. I don’t think it would really be served well to diminish that in favor of “realism”. It certainly didn’t work for Star Trek, which turned into a cynical clusterfuck with few redeeming qualities.
Star Trek is still optimistic it just shows that how hope leads you out of darkness that is why Discovery is awesome and Picard is the best series since DS9. So you are dead wrong there.
And the Star Wars sequel trilogy was a master class in sci-fantasy cinema the likes of which the world may never see again.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 13, 2020 3:54:45 GMT
ME1 and 2 should largely be left alone. They aren't perfect but by videogame standards the writing is fine. Touch up the visuals and improve 1's inventory bloat so i don't spend half the game's runtime turning useless trash into credits/omni gel 3 needs an entire rewrite to even make any sense. From the basic premise being flawed (Reapers can simply fly through 300 odd years of Darkspace in like 6 months to attack the galaxy rendering the plots of 1 and 2 entirely nonsensical) to even the subplots (particularly the massive retcons of the geth to appear more humanlike/sympathetic and the idiotic resolution to their arc) it's not even really worth trying to rescue it. The geth were pretty barebones in ME1, so there was plenty of headroom to add things without really changing anything fundamentally about what we already knew. I don’t think keeping them single-minded, wholly malevolent killer robots would have been particularly interesting as an alternative. After all, we already had the reapers for that.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 13, 2020 3:58:10 GMT
From the basic premise being flawed (Reapers can simply fly through 300 odd years of Darkspace in like 6 months to attack the galaxy rendering the plots of 1 and 2 entirely nonsensical Meh. The Reapers locking themselves into a box they couldn't get out of was nonsensical in the first place. Don't blame ME3 for lampshading bad ME1 ideas. And what exactly was retconned about the geth? I don't recall there being much continuity to retcon. I like how the sequel hook line at the end actively contradicts the whole trapped in dark space thing, with Shepard walking away saying that they’ll find a way to stop the reapers. Council: Stop the reapers? But....aren’t they trapped in dark space? Shepard: Oh, will the wall around the galaxy keep them out forever? Council: What wall? I don’t.........oooh
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 13, 2020 3:58:38 GMT
I gotta go with cyberstrike's read on Trek. Neither DSC nor PIC are really any more cynical than DS9 was.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 13, 2020 4:01:18 GMT
I gotta go with cyberstrike's read there. Neither DSC nor PIC are really any more cynical than DS9 was. While I liked some episodes, I wasn’t much of a fan of that either, but it was at least better written. STD and Desiccated Husk of Jean Luc were kind of drecky.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 13, 2020 4:03:16 GMT
Maybe we should rewrite ME3 so it's got nothing to do with Reapers. Turns out that after Arrival there is no Plan C, and the Reapers are just stuck forever. Shepard will see everything in ME3 as some sort of Reaper plot, but he'll just be wrong.
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 13, 2020 11:43:36 GMT
Meh. The Reapers locking themselves into a box they couldn't get out of was nonsensical in the first place. Don't blame ME3 for lampshading bad ME1 ideas. And what exactly was retconned about the geth? I don't recall there being much continuity to retcon. I like how the sequel hook line at the end actively contradicts the whole trapped in dark space thing, with Shepard walking away saying that they’ll find a way to stop the reapers. Council: Stop the reapers? But....aren’t they trapped in dark space? Shepard: Oh, will the wall around the galaxy keep them out forever? Council: What wall? I don’t.........oooh I don't recall anything about The Reapers being trapped in Dark Space, its just where they retreat to when the galaxy is rebuilding after their last culling and leaving Soveriegn to watcg watch The Milky Way to activate The Citadel when certain conditions were met, but remote access was prevented. I just took the only difference between the Humanity Cycle and the Prothean Cycle was that the Protheans from Ilos sabotaged The Citadel so it couldn't open the relay to Dark Space and eventually The Reapers took the scenic route. So they might have been travelling hundreds of years already to get to the closest Mass Relay at the Arrival DLC sector of space.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 13, 2020 12:30:25 GMT
I like how the sequel hook line at the end actively contradicts the whole trapped in dark space thing, with Shepard walking away saying that they’ll find a way to stop the reapers. Council: Stop the reapers? But....aren’t they trapped in dark space? Shepard: Oh, will the wall around the galaxy keep them out forever? Council: What wall? I don’t.........oooh I don't recall anything about The Reapers being trapped in Dark Space, its just where they retreat to when the galaxy is rebuilding after their last culling and leaving Soveriegn to watcg watch The Milky Way to activate The Citadel when certain conditions were met, but remote access was prevented. I just took the only difference between the Humanity Cycle and the Prothean Cycle was that the Protheans from Ilos sabotaged The Citadel so it couldn't open the relay to Dark Space and eventually The Reapers took the scenic route. So they might have been travelling hundreds of years already to get to the closest Mass Relay at the Arrival DLC sector of space. In the Vigil dialogue, when it mentions the keepers and the prothean scientists’ sabotage, it says specifically “and the reapers are trapped in dark space”.
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Post by Radec on Jul 13, 2020 15:05:41 GMT
From the basic premise being flawed (Reapers can simply fly through 300 odd years of Darkspace in like 6 months to attack the galaxy rendering the plots of 1 and 2 entirely nonsensical Meh. The Reapers locking themselves into a box they couldn't get out of was nonsensical in the first place. Don't blame ME3 for lampshading bad ME1 ideas. And what exactly was retconned about the geth? I don't recall there being much continuity to retcon. They could get out of the box. Just not in 6 months. The Citadel and Alpha Relay backups were more conveniences than anything. A timescale of a few hundred years to reach the galaxy by conventional FTL probably doesn't mean much to an immortal ancient machine, but it would give the current cycle at least some time to develop a more plausible, internally consistent way of defeating them than "we suddenly found ancient magic machine that shoots magic R/B/G lazor beams that solve the plot". but i guess we had to have the permanent big dumb ending of a billion year old Reaper plot take place in the confines of like 2 years. Geth ideology of self development to break out of the Reaper trap (which could have been a plot component of the above solution) was essentially retconned into the heretic perspective of utilizing Reaper technology to advance (in a really ill thought out, lore breaking manner that somehow turns Geth platforms into "alive" (they weren't before?) real boy individuals, which is a massive downgrade if anything) as if it was the right answer all along. This is especially stupid when you consider that the same narrative that does this, simultaneously proclaims "using Reaper tech bad" via Cerberus and other indoctrinated proxies ad nauseum. A more minor point, but for some reason they also tried to create a one sided victim narrative for the geth vis a vis the organics (did they think there wasn't enough reason to empathize with their perspective already? People seemed to like ME2 Legion as is), which makes no sense when put up against the numbers of people killed in the Morning War that had been previously elucidated. You can't really wipe out 99.99% of a population of 2 billion in "self defense" when it comes to a near-human species like the quarians (which presumably don't pop out of mom immediately armed and ready to fight like say a Rachni or Tyranid) and generally speaking, shooting diplomatic envoys and lost explorers on site without so much as a warning for 200 years straight doesn't fall under self defense either. Its more a presentation quibble than anything, but it just looks really sloppy from a writing perspective.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 13, 2020 16:47:40 GMT
Shepard will see everything in ME3 as some sort of Reaper plot, but he'll just be wrong That's a great idea. Imagine having seemingly "Reaper" agents appear left and right, out of, basically, nowhere and Shepard is like "This is Reaper indoctrination", but no, it's not Reapers, but some other faction masking it to look like Reaper indoctrination. It succeeds in destabilizing the galactic status quo and a new faction rises up to challenge the Council. Maybe it's a conglomerate of the Terminus system races, or maybe the Leviathans, or maybe a conglomerate of Terminus system races being controlled by the Leviathans that are now trying to earn their place as rulers of the Milky Way back, since the Reapers are indefinitely delayed and they hope to use us to fight them, when they get here. And then we can get a sequel trilogy in Andromeda, where the Reapers retreated to, in order to build a new relay to shoot them into the Milky Way, that doesn't require the activation of anything on the other side, wherever in the Milky Way and the Andromeda races now need to stop the Reapers, instead, to save the Milky Way and themselves.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 13, 2020 18:07:06 GMT
From the basic premise being flawed (Reapers can simply fly through 300 odd years of Darkspace in like 6 months to attack the galaxy rendering the plots of 1 and 2 entirely nonsensical Meh. The Reapers locking themselves into a box they couldn't get out of was nonsensical in the first place. Don't blame ME3 for lampshading bad ME1 ideas. And what exactly was retconned about the geth? I don't recall there being much continuity to retcon. One thing ME2 did really well, imo, was show how the geth were more than flashlights with guns. How they had an entire society and perception that was alien to the organic mind. Alien, and not necessarily hostile. They didn't understand how a being could have an individual mind any more than we can comprehend a gestalt intelligence. They wanted to understand us, but not BE us. But them ME3 turned them into a bunch of Pinocchios. As for the Reapers, having multiple paths into the MW was totally reasonable. Setting up paths into the MW such as the Citadel when they can just fly in and start wrecking face (totally IGNORING the Citadel) did not.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Jul 13, 2020 18:23:41 GMT
Maybe we should rewrite ME3 so it's got nothing to do with Reapers. Turns out that after Arrival there is no Plan C, and the Reapers are just stuck forever. Shepard will see everything in ME3 as some sort of Reaper plot, but he'll just be wrong. Make it a gaslighting plot where Shepard can be trying to use the threat of the Reapers to achieve some political end; Have one result be a more unified, equal, and less stratified (for the races of the galaxy anyway) end that lies on the idealistic side of cooperation, and one where there's a more on human supremacy/dominance. You could even have a spectrum of results along that line. Paragon = state of the galaxy basically analogous to the United Federation of Planets. Paragade = Probably the status quo option already in place, though with less power stratification. Renegon = Human-led system also somewhat like the status quo, though with humanity being the dominant power (or to put it into modern terms, having it be a system like NATO or the UN Security Council where one very dominant entity or entities leads the others as a 'first-among-equals' superpower or group of powers. Renegade = Human hegemony. Bonus Super Renegade = Human Imperial Supremacy (with or without the monarchy.) The means to achieve these ends are a giant question mark.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Jul 13, 2020 18:28:31 GMT
I gotta go with cyberstrike's read on Trek. Neither DSC nor PIC are really any more cynical than DS9 was. They're grittier and offer a cynical take on the state of the Federation (the early Federation in DSC is much more militaristic and willing to play by cowboy diplomacy for example, and PIC shows a Federation that has become somewhat unwilling to stand up for its values as of late in the name of political stability,) but at the end of the day, they're very much still idealistic and utopian places - they both go to pains to show that there is a better way, and that believing in that better way and working for it will bring everyone forward.
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is wanting to have some fun!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 13, 2020 21:58:29 GMT
Star Trek is still optimistic it just shows that how hope leads you out of darkness that is why Discovery is awesome and Picard is the best series since DS9. So you are dead wrong there.
And the Star Wars sequel trilogy was a master class in sci-fantasy cinema the likes of which the world may never see again.
Well The Last Jedi was the best Star Wars story in any media since KOTOR1 while the other 2 had their moments.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Jul 13, 2020 22:23:07 GMT
And the Star Wars sequel trilogy was a master class in sci-fantasy cinema the likes of which the world may never see again.
Well The Last Jedi was the best Star Wars story in any media since KOTOR1 while the other 2 had their moments.
I wouldn't know. I quit Star Wars after Disney nuked the EU and to me, it's all just pretend shit. I've frankly heard some rather poor things about it, but I just don't have the care to see any of it.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 14, 2020 13:14:33 GMT
I wouldn't know. I quit Star Wars after Disney nuked the EU and to me, it's all just pretend shit. I've frankly heard some rather poor things about it, but I just don't have the care to see any of it. Remember the first episode of TNG? Where the Enterprise is being hunted by the Borg cube? Take that, remove everything smart about it, remove the tension, the interesting characters and write it to be about fuel. That's TLJ.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 14, 2020 13:28:56 GMT
And the Star Wars sequel trilogy was a master class in sci-fantasy cinema the likes of which the world may never see again.
Well The Last Jedi was the best Star Wars story in any media since KOTOR1 while the other 2 had their moments.
The thing that bugs me is that it has certain ideas that I rather liked and would’ve preferred to continue, but overall was thoroughly misguided. The whole trilogy feels like dueling banjos but the guys playing are trying to beat each other to death with their instruments.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 14, 2020 13:53:17 GMT
Meh. The Reapers locking themselves into a box they couldn't get out of was nonsensical in the first place. Don't blame ME3 for lampshading bad ME1 ideas. And what exactly was retconned about the geth? I don't recall there being much continuity to retcon. One thing ME2 did really well, imo, was show how the geth were more than flashlights with guns. How they had an entire society and perception that was alien to the organic mind. Alien, and not necessarily hostile. They didn't understand how a being could have an individual mind any more than we can comprehend a gestalt intelligence. They wanted to understand us, but not BE us. But them ME3 turned them into a bunch of Pinocchios. As for the Reapers, having multiple paths into the MW was totally reasonable. Setting up paths into the MW such as the Citadel when they can just fly in and start wrecking face (totally IGNORING the Citadel) did not. I don’t really like the reaper code, but I feel like they were really stretching this bit here to figure out a way to allow the player to choose which faction dies. Without it, it would probably have been a case where one faction always survives, but you have to convince the other not to get itself killed by continuing its attack. My money would have been on the Quarians to be in that situation, and if you can’t convince the admirals to stand down, they get themselves obliterated. It really does suck that there are zero consequences for having to take the long way round into the galaxy. Good thing for everyone Liara happened to come across the REAPER_BGONE.3ds file.
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