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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 16, 2020 11:51:24 GMT
Good thing for everyone Liara happened to come across the REAPER_BGONE.3ds file. The crucible was just such a dumb fucking idea. "Here's this thing, that we don't what it is, we don't know how it works, but it's definitely going to wipe all the Reapers. And we sure as hell can build it". I don't buy it. I'm sorry Bioware, I just don't buy it. It's not perfect, but far better than Optimus Prime Skeletor Rieper made from goo. THAT was really dumb. The end fight wasnt much fun neither. Sound and music saved it from desaster maybe.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 16, 2020 12:28:33 GMT
Except this cycle at least, was basically a bunch of monkeys (and salamanders, and frogs, and jellyfish) simply following a blueprint with no freaking clue what the Magic Wand is supposed to do. Don't forget all the previous cycles added something to something that was going to do something.
I believe it was the keepers that created the plans to destroy the reapers. They know the citadel inside and out. During one of the cycles, a species decided they wanted to turn green. They added something to make that happen. Later on, another cycle wanted to control the reapers, so they added something to make that happen.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 16, 2020 13:19:30 GMT
No. No it doesn't. There's no reasonable or even feasible way that something like that would happen, because some dumb organic activated a beacon on Eden prime, that a data cache on Mars, would somehow get activated and deciphered, when everything else in that cache was perfectly readable a moment before. Why would you even make that particular file in the cache get activated by such an obscure item, so remotely placed, which may or may not be working after all those millennia since the eradication of the Protheans, if it even gets found in the first place. That's just nonsense. The chances are astronomically low of this ever pulling through. I am more likely to be killed by a flying cow, than this sequence of events transpiring.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 16, 2020 13:30:09 GMT
It's not perfect, but far better than Optimus Prime Skeletor Rieper made from goo. THAT was really dumb. The end fight wasnt much fun neither. Sound and music saved it from desaster maybe. I'll take Optimus Prime Skeletor Reaper. At least I get to do something and holy fucking shit, how fucking cool would actual Optimus Prime Skeletor Reaper be? It's dumb, yeah, but I'd take it over pseudo-intellectual bullshit that was the conversation with Starkid, which is nonsensical on every level, but tries to be taken serious. At least the Optimus Prime Skeletor Reaper fight is honest in its over the top-ness. And in the previous game, the boss fight was Metal Cooler, so I'd say it fits in the setting, as established by its predecessor. Oh man, it's The Return of Cooler all over again. First we killed Metal Cooler at the end of ME1, then we kill the Metal Cooler Core in ME2. How did I not see this before?
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 16, 2020 14:24:53 GMT
The crucible was just such a dumb fucking idea. "Here's this thing, that we don't what it is, we don't know how it works, but it's definitely going to wipe all the Reapers. And we sure as hell can build it". I don't buy it. I'm sorry Bioware, I just don't buy it. It's not perfect, but far better than Optimus Prime Skeletor Rieper made from goo. THAT was really dumb. The end fight wasnt much fun neither. Sound and music saved it from desaster maybe. That final battle was annoying as fuck with all that swinging about, and anyone who remembers Contra 3 would probably laugh at the resemblance this thing had to that boss. BioWare is very hit or miss with its boss battles, and more often than not they feel really cheap, especially when the game decides to pull something dumb strictly to get a boss fight, like the mega-hopper Saren. Just like the Suicide Mission, the sequence’s best part is the big dramatic finale score.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 16, 2020 14:45:25 GMT
It's not perfect, but far better than Optimus Prime Skeletor Rieper made from goo. THAT was really dumb. The end fight wasnt much fun neither. Sound and music saved it from desaster maybe. That final battle was annoying as fuck with all that swinging about, and anyone who remembers Contra 3 would probably laugh at the resemblance this thing had to that boss. BioWare is very hit or miss with its boss battles, and more often than not they feel really cheap, especially when the game decides to pull something dumb strictly to get a boss fight, like the mega-hopper Saren. Just like the Suicide Mission, the sequence’s best part is the big dramatic finale score. Yeah, finales aren't really their forte in ME. At least they didn't do it with QTEs.
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Post by Radec on Jul 16, 2020 16:07:34 GMT
I didn't mind the human Reaper larva thing. Yeah, visually it looks incredibly stupid (almost as stupid as ME1 Saren hopper), but it can be handwaved as simply the core of a standard Cthulhu Reaper design that isn't finished yet
The idea of building a new Reaper to try and do what Sovereign failed at in ME1 (take the Citadel, let the rest of the Reapers in from Dark Space) at least makes sense with the setting they'd already established up to that point unlike.....literally anything in ME3
As for the boss fight itself, it could've been better designed. It's really too easy with ranged weapon platform classes (Soldier, Infiltrator) but tedious with the caster ones, where you're shooting it with your dinky guns for ages (hope you brought the Cain and specc'd into AR's for the Mattock, or the fight will take forever). That your squad doesn't help at all is also silly.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 16, 2020 16:16:27 GMT
ah yes, fighting 3-eyes. First off, who told the collectors humans have 3 eyes? When making a prothean reaper, did it have 5 eyes? I believe the fight would have been better if the collector general showed up instead of having 3-eyes doing it's chest laser thing. I have fought the thing with all classes. Soldier is the quickest, but playing as a biotic only using powers, takes a bit of time to stop the thing.
Why were the collectors building it? It wasn't to replace Sovereign. The reaper wasn't going to be completed when the reapers showed up. Maybe that was dfown because they wanted to get a head start on the harvest. It's possible that's what happened in previous cycles
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 16, 2020 17:20:40 GMT
ah yes, fighting 3-eyes. First off, who told the collectors humans have 3 eyes? When making a prothean reaper, did it have 5 eyes? I believe the fight would have been better if the collector general showed up instead of having 3-eyes doing it's chest laser thing. I have fought the thing with all classes. Soldier is the quickest, but playing as a biotic only using powers, takes a bit of time to stop the thing. Why were the collectors building it? It wasn't to replace Sovereign. The reaper wasn't going to be completed when the reapers showed up. Maybe that was dfown because they wanted to get a head start on the harvest. It's possible that's what happened in previous cycles
Never underestimate the uncontrollable urge to just add extra superfluous details for scifi effect, like extra optics on a robot when it doesn't need so many.
There's no real point in having a head start on the harvest. The collectors futzing about making deals while it captures humans only jeopardizes the entire operation. The reapers were on their way. They didn't need to have these bugs screwing about with the galaxy, giving people even more of a reason to expect their arrival. Maybe Harbinger was just as much of a dunce cap as Sovereign.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 16, 2020 17:24:13 GMT
Then there was no reason to have 3-eyes at all. It was done for what...shock. If so, it failed since I got more of a laugh then anything else. Whatever. Maybe in a remake it will be removed with the fight being against the collector general
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 16, 2020 17:43:49 GMT
Then there was no reason to have 3-eyes at all. It was done for what...shock. If so, it failed since I got more of a laugh then anything else. Whatever. Maybe in a remake it will be removed with the fight being against the collector general If you weren't shocked by "precisely", then there was no hope at that point. It's like all the little lights on our armor. They don't do jack, but it looks all space-age-y.
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Proud Sponsor of Swingin' Seamen Charter Fishing: My Live Bait Will Catch Your Fish Every Time!
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Post by The Hype Himself on Jul 16, 2020 19:24:56 GMT
No. No it doesn't. There's no reasonable or even feasible way that something like that would happen, because some dumb organic activated a beacon on Eden prime, that a data cache on Mars, would somehow get activated and deciphered, when everything else in that cache was perfectly readable a moment before. Why would you even make that particular file in the cache get activated by such an obscure item, so remotely placed, which may or may not be working after all those millennia since the eradication of the Protheans, if it even gets found in the first place. That's just nonsense. The chances are astronomically low of this ever pulling through. I am more likely to be killed by a flying cow, than this sequence of events transpiring. I never said that activating the beacon Eden Prime would activate the archive on Mars. I said that the information gleaned from Shepard's finalized experience with the Eden Prime Beacon and Message and resulting Cultural Understanding (and transmitted to Liara, a noted Prothean expert,) could be used to decipher more information and unlock new insights into the archives on Mars. As an aside though, Quantum entanglement technology is a thing in the series for the modern races. It's not a stretch to imagine that the Protheans also possessed the technology, given how much more advanced they apparently were compared to the modern galactic civilizations. It's not much more of a stretch to also see how the content of the Beacon (a warning about the Reapers) and the Martian Archive (which contains the schematics for the Crucible) are related. Also, don't ever make an appeal to incredulity. It's a game. The impossible happens routinely. Sometimes, you just have to roll with it.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 16, 2020 19:57:44 GMT
I said that the information gleaned from Shepard's finalized experience with the Eden Prime Beacon and Message and resulting Cultural Understanding (and transmitted to Liara, a noted Prothean expert,) could be used to decipher more information and unlock new insights into the archives on Mars Which he never sees. As an aside though, Quantum entanglement technology is a thing in the series for the modern races. It's not a stretch to imagine that the Protheans also possessed the technology, given how much more advanced they apparently were compared to the modern galactic civilizations. It's not much more of a stretch to also see how the content of the Beacon (a warning about the Reapers) and the Martian Archive (which contains the schematics for the Crucible) are related. But if they were related, it would be a huge coincidence. If they were part of the failsafe the Protheans set up for the next cycle, it would be unlikely, at best, to be established or recovered, if even found. Also, don't ever make an appeal to incredulity. It's a game. The impossible happens routinely. Sometimes, you just have to roll with it. It's a recipe straight out of the JJ Abrams cookbook. I don't like it and I think it's poor story telling.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Jul 16, 2020 22:18:31 GMT
I said that the information gleaned from Shepard's finalized experience with the Eden Prime Beacon and Message and resulting Cultural Understanding (and transmitted to Liara, a noted Prothean expert,) could be used to decipher more information and unlock new insights into the archives on Mars Which he never sees. What, that Shepard never sees the information that could decipher information in the archives? Or that he doesn't know that the information he had gained was still being used to work on the Martian archive? Or is it something else entirely? If it's the first, then the Watsonian explanation could be that it didn't give him any information to open the archive, but it did give him the insight into Prothean culture that would allow for a breakthrough to unlock new information, i.e. a shift in perspective to something only a Prothean would understand. That is something that was stated was an effect of Shepard's exposure to the Beacon on Eden Prime. He is able to understand the Prothean language after all. If it's the middle, well, he was never a researcher on Mars and frankly has better things to do than worry about what's going on with the Xenoarchaeology. If it's anything else, then I think your point is starting to get muddled. That's an appeal to incredulity. Again though, this is an aside thought. Don't discount it, but it's not the main point. Well I'm not going to argue with that, but it's a plausible, however improbable it may be, explanation that I can work with. I'm fine with the writers not going in-depth over this, it would get in the way of resources that would be better utilized in other parts of the story - not that those resources ended up being utilized in a dramatically reasonable way.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 16, 2020 22:34:34 GMT
What, that Shepard never sees the information that could decipher information in the archives? Or that he doesn't know that the information he had gained was still being used to work on the Martian archive? Or is it something else entirely? If it's the first, then the Watsonian explanation could be that it didn't give him any information to open the archive, but it did give him the insight into Prothean culture that would allow for a breakthrough to unlock new information, i.e. a shift in perspective to something only a Prothean would understand. That is something that was stated was an effect of Shepard's exposure to the Beacon on Eden Prime. He is able to understand the Prothean language after all. Shepard never gets to study the Martian data cache. Liara does it. Shepard is never shown interacting with it. So even so, it doesn't help in the game. That's an appeal to incredulity. Again though, this is an aside thought. Don't discount it, but it's not the main point. But it's really, really implausible to happen. My mind would never follow that train of thought, because it is so far fetched, it's an asspull. I don't know how anyone would come up with this. Well I'm not going to argue with that, but it's a plausible, however improbable it may be, explanation that I can work with. I'm fine with the writers not going in-depth over this, it would get in the way of resources that would be better utilized in other parts of the story - not that those resources ended up being utilized in a dramatically reasonable way. Let me put it this way. I am a Prothean. I have the means to provide the next cycle with the knowledge of my language, history etc. as well as the weapon that kills the Reapers. I am going to hide the plan to the salvation of the cycle in one cluster. And the key to it in an entire other cluster. Now, the Milky Way is fucking huge and according to ... ME1? we've only explored 10% of the Milky way. I'm going to hide these two things so well, that no Reaper can find them. And I throw a Hail Mary that some primitive fuck finds both, in a single lifetime, before the next cycle gets wiped out by the Reapers again, or that however many times the cycles repeats, until we hit that % chance, that both of these artifacts are still working, or haven't been discovered and subsequently destroyed by the Reapers in the meantime. I gotta come up with a better plan than this. It's a bad plan. It's a really bad plan.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Jul 16, 2020 23:12:51 GMT
What, that Shepard never sees the information that could decipher information in the archives? Or that he doesn't know that the information he had gained was still being used to work on the Martian archive? Or is it something else entirely? If it's the first, then the Watsonian explanation could be that it didn't give him any information to open the archive, but it did give him the insight into Prothean culture that would allow for a breakthrough to unlock new information, i.e. a shift in perspective to something only a Prothean would understand. That is something that was stated was an effect of Shepard's exposure to the Beacon on Eden Prime. He is able to understand the Prothean language after all. Shepard never gets to study the Martian data cache. Liara does it. Shepard is never shown interacting with it. So even so, it doesn't help in the game. As I said, that doesn't and shouldn't matter. Shepard's not a Prothean researcher, he's a military officer on a mission. Shepard has no reason to interact with him. He's not going to make any breakthroughs that someone else won't already. The fact that it's even being built is directly thanks to him. I came up with it in about 20 minutes, and know the lore well enough to see how it could work without being breaking it. Call it complexity insurance, call it the desire to weld canon in a coherent way. It works. Sure, it's implausible, but so is just about everything else. As you said, it's a Hail Mary plan. And who's to say that they hadn't come up with another plan? As you said, the Reapers are thorough enough that plans might need to be complex, irregular, and seemingly non-sensical. Perhaps the Protheans had other plans, and the Reapers ruined them. Perhaps the Protheans were aware that they might have to get... let's say, creative. And we can hope that sometime, somewhere along the line, the following civilizations can figure things out. And again, you said the Milky Way is huge, which is true. What's also true is that there are Mass Relays connecting points of space to each other, and that Earth and Eden Prime are both relatively close to each other via Relays. Odds are, if you find one of those relays, you're going to find the other. And if you find them both, you're probably also going to find their Prothean archives. I do say the odds are so high as to be implausible. But the theory fits, even if it stretches a bit, and it's better than making a Meta argument to discount an in-universe problem. Try coming up with something yourself that fits the narrative puzzle.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 16, 2020 23:43:13 GMT
As I said, that doesn't and shouldn't matter. Shepard's not a Prothean researcher, he's a military officer on a mission. Shepard has no reason to interact with him. He's not going to make any breakthroughs that someone else won't already. The fact that it's even being built is directly thanks to him. No. It's thanks to Liara. Shepard finding the beacon in Eden prime had nothing to do with it. plans might need to be complex, irregular, and seemingly non-sensical That's not a plus. It would make more sense for Vigil to have the plans, since that was a huge, hidden Prothean installation, but we're never told or give it. What's also true is that there are Mass Relays connecting points of space to each other, and that Earth and Eden Prime are both relatively close to each other via Relays. Odds are, if you find one of those relays, you're going to find the other That's not how it works. There's a fuck huge number of planets in each cluster. And there's a ridiculous amount of ground to cover in each planet. And you'd have to dig all of it, to find the specific beacon that does the trick. And you'd have to do this for every planet, in every cluster you find, because you don't know where it might be. Provided that the planet's star hasn't gone supernova in the meantime, it wasn't uncovered by a Reaper in the Prothean cycle, in spite of your best efforts, that it works, when it is found, or that it survives enough cycles for the conditions to be met, to actually fulfill its purpose. I just don't believe the coincidence of it.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 17, 2020 1:19:04 GMT
Except this cycle at least, was basically a bunch of monkeys (and salamanders, and frogs, and jellyfish) simply following a blueprint with no freaking clue what the Magic Wand is supposed to do. Don't forget all the previous cycles added something to something that was going to do something.
I believe it was the keepers that created the plans to destroy the reapers. They know the citadel inside and out. During one of the cycles, a species decided they wanted to turn green. They added something to make that happen. Later on, another cycle wanted to control the reapers, so they added something to make that happen.
Keeper 20 was the real hero.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Jul 17, 2020 2:44:54 GMT
As I said, that doesn't and shouldn't matter. Shepard's not a Prothean researcher, he's a military officer on a mission. Shepard has no reason to interact with him. He's not going to make any breakthroughs that someone else won't already. The fact that it's even being built is directly thanks to him. No. It's thanks to Liara. Shepard finding the beacon in Eden prime had nothing to do with it. Sure, if that's what works better. Notice I'm not trying to say anything that I think works 'better.' I'm just trying to think of something that works at all. Liara is an expert on Prothean technology, and she has the resources to figure out what's going on as Shadow Broker, so that's perfectly acceptable. All's I'm saying here is that Liara, through mind-melding with Shepard in ME1, also has access to the Prothean vision, with the complete context of the message within. So while Shepard doesn't have to have been involved (if you like, this is entirely within the bounds of fanwankery,) you can also say that his revelation from the Beacon and subsequent context gained from the Rachni and the Thorian would subsequently pass that on to Liara, who could use that context of Prothean society and its downfall to unlock the Mars archive. I figured a way that fits into the narrative to make it work for me. If it doesn't work for you, well, that's entirely up to you. But don't say that it can't work for me either, just because you find it to be improbable. Well, there's a narrative block that you've an easy Doylist explanation for: the writers didn't think that far ahead. For a Watsonian perspective, you're free to imagine whatever you like. I choose to believe that the facility on Ilos didn't have any access to the Crucible, and likely didn't even know it existed. Well the relays are both located within the habitable systems. Sure, you 'could' search the entire cluster, but as luck would have it, Prothean facilities are located within the very star systems that the primary mass relay is located in. Presumably, with what would appear to be a life-bearing world within the habitable zone of the star right off the block, that's going to be the first planet you explore. And it's not difficult to imagine that there is some 'clue' that would help researchers eventually zero in on the find. After all, the Mars archive was described prior to discovery as tantamount to a Bermuda Triangle-esque anomalous location. Perhaps the same could be said for Eden Prime? I'm willing to say that it is. As for the Protheans? Well, blind faith and luck is about all they can really rely on. As shown from the beacon on Thessia, the Protheans had multiple redundancies, and the information was located on more than one world. As well, the Protheans were studying us, and likely believed that at least a few of the modern homeworlds were likely to become home to advanced space-faring civilizations. It's not a stretch to believe that they could leave information on the doorstep of the species predicted to be the players in the coming cycle. All said, if this doesn't work for you, fine. It's merely a possible explanation. If you've a better one, use it. But mine does work and contradicts no lore, nor is it physically impossible. Improbable though it may be, coincidence does happen. Call it chance or fate or design, but there it is.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 17, 2020 14:09:15 GMT
All said, if this doesn't work for you, fine. It's merely a possible explanation. If you've a better one, use it Here's one the writers didn't think that far ahead There we go. I like that one. To be frank, I don't consider it a huge mistake. Unless the point comes under close examination, it doesn't stand out as much, especially compared to other plot points in ME3, but it's still an issue and no amount of headcanon can salvage it. It's dumb. And it's alright. I write dumb thing too. I am not infallible. But the answer to "why did it happen like this?" is because Bioware needed it to. And I can forgive it. I can forgive it more often than not. But I can't forgive it all the time and ME3 does this way, way, way too often for my liking. Like, for example, why is a former convict serial killer with authority issues working as a biotics teacher for the alliance? Because Bioware needed her to. Even if I like it, it's silly.
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Post by Phantom on Jul 17, 2020 17:02:23 GMT
Well I would replace Cerberus with more High functioning Reaper Husk Enemies or unexpected Reaper Sleeper agents that are not Cerberus
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 17, 2020 17:30:42 GMT
Well I would replace Cerberus with more High functioning Reaper Husk Enemies or unexpected Reaper Sleeper agents that are not Cerberus I don't know about Reaper Husk Enemies, since they could be in the billions, but anything other than Cerberus, please. And without Cerberus as an antagonist, we barely have half a game in ME3. It's such a dumb idea.
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Post by Phantom on Jul 17, 2020 17:36:34 GMT
Well I would replace Cerberus with more High functioning Reaper Husk Enemies or unexpected Reaper Sleeper agents that are not Cerberus I don't know about Reaper Husk Enemies, since they could be in the billions, but anything other than Cerberus, please. And without Cerberus as an antagonist, we barely have half a game in ME3. It's such a dumb idea. Well Keep in mind that if you remember that in ME:Retribution that Cerberus was hit pretty hard by the Turians and this is in between ME2 and ME3. so Replacing them with a new faction or having Reaper Sleeper Agents within the Allied faction would be a good solutions
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Ameridan
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Ameridan on Jul 19, 2020 22:29:45 GMT
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 19, 2020 22:51:44 GMT
Depending on how you read it this could be the mythical remake everyone keeps hearing about. They aren't giving us a new game, but just a new art book for the first three games. For there is no mention of remake, just an expanded art book from the first three games.
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