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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 17, 2020 18:52:50 GMT
As for Ryder, my Ryder stood up for themselves, Really? Look at the asari knocking Ryder down scene? Why can't Ryder get in the asari's face for that? All the player gets is some pathetic time delayed interrupt that amounted to nothing. There's also a couple of times character mouth off at Ryder without any response. Why can't Ryder get in their face and sound off at them. Show them they can't mouth off and get away with it? The asari did. First the knocking Ryder to the ground. She found the perfect guinea pig to put up with her crap that she does it again with the escape pod. Is that what you call it, together? It wasn't Ryder that got them in the kett facility. Without the voice Ryder would never have progressed any further in the archon's ship. Why would they? PeeBee tackled them to save Ryder, not knowing that they knew how to handle that technology. I find it ironic that the people who claim Ryder was too immature want options where they act childish, like getting into yelling matches. And yes, that's what I call it. SAM couldn't get to the kett facility or Archon's ship without Ryder, so they both worked together handling the weaknesses of the other for a better whole. If you have a problem with that, do you have a problem with EDI or really any assistance from any other character like our squadmates? Because it's the same thing.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 17, 2020 19:42:12 GMT
Why would they? PeeBee tackled them to save Ryder, not knowing that they knew how to handle that technology. Saving Ryder? Is that what you call it? After getting to the console, Ryder has to scan whatever to use the console. While searching for the whatever, my Ryder saw a shuttle. Where were the owners of the shuttle? Was the asari in there watching? Why didn't she get out to alert Ryder when Ryder was at the console the first time? Did Bioware believe it would be cool to have the asari knock Ryder to the ground? Childish? Why would it be childish for Ryder to get in the asari's face about being knocked down? Same thing? From what I remember Shepard never had a voice in her/his head that can kill them at anytime.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 17, 2020 22:42:22 GMT
Why would they? PeeBee tackled them to save Ryder, not knowing that they knew how to handle that technology. Saving Ryder? Is that what you call it? After getting to the console, Ryder has to scan whatever to use the console. While searching for the whatever, my Ryder saw a shuttle. Where were the owners of the shuttle? Was the asari in there watching? Why didn't she get out to alert Ryder when Ryder was at the console the first time? Did Bioware believe it would be cool to have the asari knock Ryder to the ground? Yes, that's what I call it since that's what it was. As for the rest, any number of reasons. For example thinking she was alone she was tending to other things and noticed us only at the moment she is introduced. Yes EDI controlled a ship that could kill you in any number of ways, and any squadmate could betray you. So yes, same thing.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 17, 2020 23:18:07 GMT
Yes, that's what I call it since that's what it was. What did the asari save Ryder from? Robots showing up unexpectedly? Wouldn't have been any different from fighting the kett on hab 7 or the kett when first arriving on Eos. Or she was checking her list of what stupid crap she could do. But why is it childish for Ryder to get in the asari's face to question her about why she knocked Ryder to the ground? Ah yes, betray. Isn't that what the Kosta traitor did?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 17, 2020 23:29:48 GMT
Yes, that's what I call it since that's what it was. What did the asari save Ryder from? Robots showing up unexpectedly? Wouldn't have been any different from fighting the kett on hab 7 or the kett when first arriving on Eos. Or she was checking her list of what stupid crap she could do. But why is it childish for Ryder to get in the asari's face to question her about why she knocked Ryder to the ground? Ah yes, betray. Isn't that what the Kosta traitor did? PeeBee isn’t aware of any of that having happened though, is she? Most people aren’t. No. Because mature adults don’t behave that way. No. |
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Post by themikefest on Aug 17, 2020 23:39:22 GMT
Because mature adults don’t behave that way. So by getting in the face of the attacker to find out why they knocked you to the ground is immature? If that's what you want to believe... Then why can't Ryder question why the asari didn't show up when she/he was at the console the first time?
I guess the excuse is she didn't bother seeing 3 heavily armed individuals before knocking Ryder to the ground. Why was this character a squadmate?
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 18, 2020 0:38:42 GMT
I just don't see why Ryder needs to be so insecure. She's got 99 problems, but getting knocked down by an asari who's trying to be helpful ain't one.
Edit:but, again, I fully support letting the PC engage in ridiculous posturing. One of the problems with recent Bio product is that the devs either don't understand the power-fantasy aspect of CRPGs, or they do understand it but have outright contempt for it.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 18, 2020 0:39:29 GMT
e kett facility or Archon's ship without Ryder, so they both worked together handling the weaknesses of the other for a better whole. If you have a problem with that, do you have a problem with EDI or really any assistance from any other character like our squadmates? Because it's the same thing. Same thing? From what I remember Shepard never had a voice in her/his head that can kill them at anytime. To my recollection, you weren't a fan of EDI, or at least not the "human" [acting] version. There's consistency here.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 18, 2020 0:44:25 GMT
Well, it does look like macho posturing to me. Real men don't worry about whether or not they appear unmanly. Unmanly and standing up for yourself are not the same thing. I love Ryder, I really do. I think taking a person who was prepared to explore instead found s/he had to take the lead in fending off attacks by hostile aliens should lead to character development. That is, Ryder grows based on experiences. It's all well and good that Ryder has a spirit of adventure. It's why they were there. However, if s/he can't changed based on the current situation then they're useless as a leader. In that case, stand aside and allow Cora to take the lead. Ryder can go adventuring while Cora leads the team into battle. It's not a knock on Ryder. It is, tbh, a knock on anyone who doesn't see how Ryder has to evolve for the new situation.
Note: I took what you wrote but drew on a greater level of conversation going on here. So it's not all about you. Or even mostly about you. 
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 18, 2020 0:46:01 GMT
It'd probably help if we had a clear proposal for an alternate version. What would the interrupt/subsequent dialog options look like?
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 18, 2020 0:47:57 GMT
It'd probably help if we had a clear proposal for an alternate version. What would the interrupt/subsequent dialog options look like? Good question. I guess it would depend on the script. Writers seemed to figure it out for ME2/3 so I can't see why it couldn't be adapted for an MEA2.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 18, 2020 1:13:42 GMT
Same thing? From what I remember Shepard never had a voice in her/his head that can kill them at anytime. To my recollection, you weren't a fan of EDI, or at least not the "human" [acting] version. There's consistency here. The hologram in ME2 wasn't bad, but when it got a platform in ME3, that's when I didn't care for it. I would have liked an option for my Shepard to throw the platform out the airlock.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 18, 2020 1:46:18 GMT
Well, it does look like macho posturing to me. Real men don't worry about whether or not they appear unmanly. Unmanly and standing up for yourself are not the same thing. I love Ryder, I really do. I think taking a person who was prepared to explore instead found s/he had to take the lead in fending off attacks by hostile aliens should lead to character development. That is, Ryder grows based on experiences. It's all well and good that Ryder has a spirit of adventure. It's why they were there. However, if s/he can't changed based on the current situation then they're useless as a leader. In that case, stand aside and allow Cora to take the lead. Ryder can go adventuring while Cora leads the team into battle. It's not a knock on Ryder. It is, tbh, a knock on anyone who doesn't see how Ryder has to evolve for the new situation.
Note: I took what you wrote but drew on a greater level of conversation going on here. So it's not all about you. Or even mostly about you. So how would you have Ryder be for everyone? Please give like a paragraph describing this new version of them so we can better understand. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 19, 2020 0:20:30 GMT
Unmanly and standing up for yourself are not the same thing. I love Ryder, I really do. I think taking a person who was prepared to explore instead found s/he had to take the lead in fending off attacks by hostile aliens should lead to character development. That is, Ryder grows based on experiences. It's all well and good that Ryder has a spirit of adventure. It's why they were there. However, if s/he can't changed based on the current situation then they're useless as a leader. In that case, stand aside and allow Cora to take the lead. Ryder can go adventuring while Cora leads the team into battle. It's not a knock on Ryder. It is, tbh, a knock on anyone who doesn't see how Ryder has to evolve for the new situation.
Note: I took what you wrote but drew on a greater level of conversation going on here. So it's not all about you. Or even mostly about you.  So how would you have Ryder be for everyone? Please give like a paragraph describing this new version of them so we can better understand. No character is going to be for everyone. It's ridiculous to even suggest it. But, for example, I absolutely hate Renegade Shepard but love Paragon Shepard. Paragade is fine. There's a tone missing from Ryder that needs to allow for range. My second sentence above says I love Ryder. I loved Ryder as written. However, that didn't appeal to a lot of people. Or they thought Ryder was okay but nothing special. Ryder has to become the tough, seasoned professional when in the field or in any way dealing with his crew. NO ONE walks out on a meeting until dismissed. Ryder has to show personal capability without the use of SAM. Personally, I give SAM a pass in MEA because certain technologies were beyond anything that could be figured out in the time it needed to happen. In an MEA2, SAM would be better used unlocking the mysteries of Meridian.
When I say "professional" while on the job, I don't mean they can't crack some jokes. I mean that their squad has to absolutely respect whatever decision Ryder makes. No questions. Got issues? That's what debriefing is for. Not following orders? Bye-bye. I liked Liam but I'd have booted him for what he did. Because this game had a lighter tone it was allowed to slide. There should have been some consequences. Doesn't have to be off the squad but also can't be a slap on the wrist. Peebee? Forget it. Can't trust her and she has no respect for property. She stole something major from the Tempest. Not cool. Yet, Ryder let it go. Can't happen.
So, yeah, Ryder has to evolve. Or they can continue to be walked all over and treated as unworthy of being a leader by squadmates.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 19, 2020 1:43:37 GMT
So how would you have Ryder be for everyone? Please give like a paragraph describing this new version of them so we can better understand. No character is going to be for everyone. It's ridiculous to even suggest it. But, for example, I absolutely hate Renegade Shepard but love Paragon Shepard. Paragade is fine. There's a tone missing from Ryder that needs to allow for range. My second sentence above says I love Ryder. I loved Ryder as written. However, that didn't appeal to a lot of people. Or they thought Ryder was okay but nothing special. Ryder has to become the tough, seasoned professional when in the field or in any way dealing with his crew. NO ONE walks out on a meeting until dismissed. Ryder has to show personal capability without the use of SAM. Personally, I give SAM a pass in MEA because certain technologies were beyond anything that could be figured out in the time it needed to happen. In an MEA2, SAM would be better used unlocking the mysteries of Meridian.
When I say "professional" while on the job, I don't mean they can't crack some jokes. I mean that their squad has to absolutely respect whatever decision Ryder makes. No questions. Got issues? That's what debriefing is for. Not following orders? Bye-bye. I liked Liam but I'd have booted him for what he did. Because this game had a lighter tone it was allowed to slide. There should have been some consequences. Doesn't have to be off the squad but also can't be a slap on the wrist. Peebee? Forget it. Can't trust her and she has no respect for property. She stole something major from the Tempest. Not cool. Yet, Ryder let it go. Can't happen.
So, yeah, Ryder has to evolve. Or they can continue to be walked all over and treated as unworthy of being a leader by squadmates.
I guess Shepard wasn’t professional then either, since they had squad mates question them and their decisions (I’m assuming you also are just referring to ethical orders, and not things like Ryder telling them to kill civilians and the squad doing it no questions). But I imagine most of this would occur even with no personality change, since by the end Ryder had earned their respect. As for punishing squad mates, while true again this issue was hardly exclusive to Ryder but also Shepard. |
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Post by themikefest on Aug 19, 2020 11:32:14 GMT
I liked Liam but I'd have booted him for what he did. Because this game had a lighter tone it was allowed to slide. There should have been some consequences. Doesn't have to be off the squad but also can't be a slap on the wrist. I would have shot him dead where he stood for what he did. For my Ryder, I would have had the option to turn Kosta over to Nexus security to explain why he did what he did. He can never be trusted again. Don't forget to add putting Ryder and the other squadmate in danger as well as the crew to the tempest. That's because little Ryder has the I don't care attitude. I would have added the option for Ryder to turn the asari over to Nexus security to explain why she what she did. I agree. I believe it would have been better for Alec to live, just not able to continue as pathfinder, to mentor his kid. Giving advice about what to do when facing whatever situation
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 19, 2020 22:30:07 GMT
I agree. I believe it would have been better for Alec to live, just not able to continue as pathfinder, to mentor his kid. Giving advice about what to do when facing whatever situation That probably wouldn't have been a bad idea. Maybe Alec was injured and unable to go out on missions. He could still offer support and guidance to his kids. Or, maybe at some point, show up on the Tempest. Either way, Ryder has to become the confident leader that will a) lead them into battle, and  bring them to dangerous new frontiers in different systems in the Andromeda Galaxy. It doesn't mean Ryder has to be ultra-serious or in any way a replica of Shepard. You can be tough and fair but you cannot have your people walking all over you. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 19, 2020 22:41:37 GMT
I guess Shepard wasn’t professional then either, since they had squad mates question them and their decisions (I’m assuming you also are just referring to ethical orders, and not things like Ryder telling them to kill civilians and the squad doing it no questions). But I imagine most of this would occur even with no personality change, since by the end Ryder had earned their respect. As for punishing squad mates, while true again this issue was hardly exclusive to Ryder but also Shepard. Who questioned Shepard on the battlefield? No one. Particularly in ME2, Shepard did not care in the least what TIM or anyone from Cerberus thought about something unless it aligned with his/her own views. "Don't bring Legion aboard!" "Yeah, I want him." "Don't release Grunt!" "Um, badass krogan on my team." Even so, these things were done outside. Shepard could be a bastard, no question. I never played him Renegade so never got the worst of him. Similarly, I wouldn't play Ryder that way. Now, as far as you saying he's gained respect, I believe you are correct. Obviously, I'm not talking about murdering people. That's the kind of thing their squad should question. If you're in a meeting you DO NOT walk out until it's adjourned. You DO NOT allow a squadmate to steal Nexus property (unless it's literally to do the job, like taking off with the Tempest and ignoring the red tape - kind of like Shepard did in ME1). If a krogan tries to walk all over you then you stare him straight in the eyes and tell him to get out. And you don't back down. These are, of course, things you might do with experience behind you. Ryder is gone. It takes time to develop into that more confident leader. Not sure why developing a character is a tragedy. |
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Post by themikefest on Aug 20, 2020 16:20:03 GMT
That probably wouldn't have been a bad idea. Maybe Alec was injured and unable to go out on missions. He could still offer support and guidance to his kids. Or, maybe at some point, show up on the Tempest. Either way, Ryder has to become the confident leader that will a) lead them into battle, and  bring them to dangerous new frontiers in different systems in the Andromeda Galaxy. It doesn't mean Ryder has to be ultra-serious or in any way a replica of Shepard. You can be tough and fair but you cannot have your people walking all over you. The lead up to Alec's death was lame. Just as the lead up to a few character deaths in ME3 were lame.
The player sees Alec limping badly. I would guess his hip is broken. That alone would prevent him from continuing as pathfinder. Instead of his kid having damage to the helmet, he/she just has the wind knocked out of them. Back on the Hyperion, the sam stuff is transferred to Harper. But for some blah, blah reason, it doesn't work. So it's decided little Ryder will inherit a sam voice. During the game, dad and kid talk with dad giving advice on what to do in whatever situation his kid might face.
If you're in a meeting you DO NOT walk out until it's adjourned. You DO NOT allow a squadmate to steal Nexus property (unless it's literally to do the job, like taking off with the Tempest and ignoring the red tape - kind of like Shepard did in ME1). If a krogan tries to walk all over you then you stare him straight in the eyes and tell him to get out. And you don't back down. These are, of course, things you might do with experience behind you. Ryder is gone. It takes time to develop into that more confident leader. Not sure why developing a character is a tragedy. ah yes, respect for little Ryder. You said it. Allowing someone to walk away during a meeting without doing anything shows he/she doesn't care. Ryder gets no respect for that since it tells me he/she will let squadmates get away with anything. The game proves that to be the case. On the outside I can see why someone would give Ryder respect, but seeing what little Ryder went through to get results, respect declines because of the stupid crap that happened. Some of the things in the game makes you wonder what training did Ryder receive from the Alliance. Is that what they trained her/him? How about dad, a former N7? I doubt he taught his kids to allow/do the crap that is seen in the game.
If by chance a sequel were to happen with Ryder returning, a way to earn any respect from me is at the beginning is Ryder tells whoever the reason why the asari and kosta are no longer on the squad is because they did stupid crap and realized that can't be tolerated.
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bring them to dangerous new frontiers in different systems in the Andromeda Galaxy. It doesn't mean Ryder has to be ultra-serious or in any way a replica of Shepard. You can be tough and fair but you cannot have your people walking all over you.
bring them to dangerous new frontiers in different systems in the Andromeda Galaxy. It doesn't mean Ryder has to be ultra-serious or in any way a replica of Shepard. You can be tough and fair but you cannot have your people walking all over you.