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Post by Buckeldemon on Jun 20, 2021 20:26:16 GMT
I was thinking more like a devout Andrastian wouldn't really want to have cuddles with like, a Dalish who shits on Andrastian faith. Or that some characters just have racial preferences because of their background or status or just that they are/aren't attracted to some races and it's like a character trait they bring up. Like I find it just ever-so-slightly weird that Cassandra is completely a-okay with a man of any faith and any opinion regarding her faith really as long as you jam that approval meter high enough. Obviously there'll be opposites attract kind of romances present but sometimes having certain dealbreakers certainly makes a lot of sense. Make it opposite, and it would be accurate to DAI and the main reason why I tend to have my Lavellans stay largely solo, except for the odd wolfbait, though Solas is of course also part of the shitter squad. No, I never considered romancing Cass and her bigotry with a Dalish elf. Like Weekes, one of the wokest woke who ever woked (judging by his Twitter), who wanted to avoid making Solas a depraved bisexual. If anything, Weekes is a decent example why "woke"=/="woke", even if dedicated "unwokes" don't get that. Or to put it in DAI terms "you can be anything you like (say sexuality/gender identity wise) as long as you are andrastian (or at least not a Dalish)".
Can anyone give me an exemple for a well-written gay. I don't really understand why you all so agressive. Yeah, we've reached the point of memes again, it seems. Or shitposts, which would be kinda more apt for sirp or myself. Though two gays having three opinons about representation isn't uncommon these days. LGBTQ+ people being inclined to cut off after the B are kinda popular in certain circles (perhaps even some cutting off after LG, I don't know).
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Post by janalilith on Jun 21, 2021 2:16:41 GMT
KISA's and pivotal characters central to the story have been gated and it really has to stop. It's unfair to players that want to take part in the story as fully as anyone else. Plus it gets boring. Why is the kisa an old fashioned, straight, nerdy blond guy every time? Female kisa Cassandra (though, not blond) is still nerdy too. That's not exactly great writing.
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Post by Gwydden on Jun 21, 2021 15:38:02 GMT
I still maintain gating is absurd because the orientation of fictional characters is nearly always arbitrary, I'd rather have fewer romances with more content than many with less, and staying fair with ungated romances allows a minimum of 4 romances as opposed to 6. It also neatly sidesteps the whole drama around whatever demographic not getting the specific option they wanted. You can even still have representation of more exclusionary orientations with non-romanceable companions and NPCs.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 21, 2021 16:57:00 GMT
I still maintain gating is absurd because the orientation of fictional characters is nearly always arbitrary, I'd rather have fewer romances with more content than many with less, and staying fair with ungated romances allows a minimum of 4 romances as opposed to 6. It also neatly sidesteps the whole drama around whatever demographic not getting the specific option they wanted. You can even still have representation of more exclusionary orientations with non-romanceable companions and NPCs. Or perhaps, fans could have a more mature attitude about it. We rarely get everything we want. And I think it would be unrealistic if all companions were bisexual, everytime. I mean, what are the odds?
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Post by Iddy on Jun 21, 2021 17:01:16 GMT
KISA's and pivotal characters central to the story have been gated and it really has to stop. It's unfair to players that want to take part in the story as fully as anyone else. Plus it gets boring. Why is the kisa an old fashioned, straight, nerdy blond guy every time? Female kisa Cassandra (though, not blond) is still nerdy too. That's not exactly great writing. The goal of writing is to be compelling, impactful and well organized. I don't think the character's sexuality has any bearing on that. That said, I'd love to see a KISA who oozes confidence. That would be badass.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 21, 2021 19:01:36 GMT
I still maintain gating is absurd because the orientation of fictional characters is nearly always arbitrary, I'd rather have fewer romances with more content than many with less, and staying fair with ungated romances allows a minimum of 4 romances as opposed to 6. It also neatly sidesteps the whole drama around whatever demographic not getting the specific option they wanted. You can even still have representation of more exclusionary orientations with non-romanceable companions and NPCs. ungated romances are more work if you want to make it good. The best exemple is DA2 we got 5 and non of them is good. So to do justice to the whole thing you have to a) put a lot more work into it or b ) only create 2 romances.
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Post by bierkrug on Jun 21, 2021 19:09:46 GMT
Doesn't gating offer more in terms of replayability and roleplaying though? Getting into a mindset that fits a particular character that goes along with the decisions that are made? That's how I always saw it anyway. Why is the kisa an old fashioned, straight, nerdy blond guy every time? Arguably, Alistair is getting more and more redheaded as the games go on ungated romances are more work if you want to make it good That's what I mean when I say one size fits all is lazy. I suppose the Solas romance is as popular as it is, at least in part, by being perfectly tailored to a Dalish inquisitor.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 21, 2021 19:39:43 GMT
KISA's and pivotal characters central to the story have been gated and it really has to stop. It's unfair to players that want to take part in the story as fully as anyone else. Plus it gets boring. Why is the kisa an old fashioned, straight, nerdy blond guy every time? Female kisa Cassandra (though, not blond) is still nerdy too. That's not exactly great writing. I agree with the old fashioned part. I don't find Cullen nerdy but that is a question of taste.
But I don't get that part with the "central to the story". If you mean some like Alistair and Morigan or Cullen, Cassandra, Josephine (she isn't gated) and Solas, then i don't care. I like Dorian as much as Cullen and that isn't a matter of story, sexualit (i am straight) or quest. I like them because they are well-written, gated and have something interessting. A romance is for me never a part of the main story.
What would you say if the romance central to the story is a gated gay guy? Would you complain? And why is it boring for you i am really curious. I found nothing more boring than the romance in DA2, because you have to write more vaguely to make all possibilities possible and then the character loses depth. Unless you take a lot of time, but even then it doesn't quite work. (I am writting myself)
So if bioware make all central to the story romances bi it doesn't matter for me. As long as i get 1-3 gated romances created with lots of love i am okay with that.
respect is the right word you get your not gated KISA and i get a gated well-written romance and we are both happy.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 21, 2021 19:48:28 GMT
And what kind of character "makes sense" to be gay? I don't know.
Why don't you tell us and Bioware what you think is a good gated gay story. That is why i created this poll. That everyone can tell what he/she wants. I think gated isn't the problem. Everyone is to afraid of not getting what he / she imagines. So better say not gated.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 21, 2021 20:19:45 GMT
The notion that a more sexually fluid/open character is somehow less deep or less well-realized/written than a character with strict limitations is homophobic. The notion that a character can only have a particular sexuality if it "makes sense for their background" is homophobic. You're basically saying that pansexuality and sexual fluidity are less valid than other identities, and that only certain types of people can be queer. And besides being homophobic, it is also complete and utter bugfucking nonsense. You DO NOT ACTUALLY KNOW the sexualities of any of the world's most well-known and well-regarded characters. You're just making assumptions. There's nothing stopping Elizabeth Bennet, Frodo, or even famous womanizers like Captain Kirk or James Bond from being attracted to people of the same sex. Their sexualities are not explicitly detailed, ever. And you don't expect them to be, because you assume based on what you see that they are 100% straight. Only queer/fluid characters are *ever* expected to explain their sexualities (just like queer people in real life are expected to justify their existence), but you are not entitled to even know a character's sexuality, let alone expect an explanation for it, and you certainly aren't owed romanceable characters who are only in your group, and fit your ridiculous definition of "well-written". When you meet pan/fluid people in real life, do you say "well that's pretty shallow and unrealisitic"? Only if you're a bigoted asshole. That isn't quit right. It's not about me saying who is what, but about the writer.
The way I see it, every person owes himself to know what sexuality he / she has. And for a character it is the writter which musst decide. For Elizabeth Bennet she is straight because she show us in her behavior. And yes it is unpopular but i think frodo is gay, because he has no interest in women throughout the book. I am not assume, i am using psychology. Captain kirk or james bond are a bit trickier they remember me at Zevran and i don't romance him because i have a problem with ihm being bi. For me it sound like he was written gay and because they were afraid that it would be too risky they make him bi. And creating a bi character and a bi character are two things. A bi character which is created that everyone can love him/her is bad for writing. But a character which is thought as bi is a well-written character.
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Post by janalilith on Jun 21, 2021 21:16:58 GMT
But I don't get that part with the "central to the story".
I'm referring to the Solas romance mainly. I don't think it was fair to gate because if your character romances him, what happens in the story really impacts your romance. Clearly, one of the biggest reasons why the Solas romance resonates is because of the betrayal and learning who he really is. That's more than just a romance - that's something that truly impacts the pc. To cut out a huge swath of players from that experience is unfair.
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Post by janalilith on Jun 21, 2021 21:28:52 GMT
KISA's and pivotal characters central to the story have been gated and it really has to stop. It's unfair to players that want to take part in the story as fully as anyone else. Plus it gets boring. Why is the kisa an old fashioned, straight, nerdy blond guy every time? Female kisa Cassandra (though, not blond) is still nerdy too. That's not exactly great writing. The goal of writing is to be compelling, impactful and well organized. I don't think the character's sexuality has any bearing on that. That said, I'd love to see a KISA who oozes confidence. That would be badass. My point is, if you can only imagine a KISA as a straight man, then you're not using your imagination very well, are you?
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Post by Gwydden on Jun 22, 2021 13:36:59 GMT
Or perhaps, fans could have a more mature attitude about it. We rarely get everything we want. And I think it would be unrealistic if all companions were bisexual, everytime. I mean, what are the odds? If I cared about realism at all I wouldn't play video games. Not that I would call having four bisexual people in the party "unrealistic"—at worst, it is statistically unlikely in a random sample of the population, which no RPG party is, at any rate.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 22, 2021 13:47:06 GMT
Bisexuality being used as some kind of fix all/everyone wins bandage is more bothersome (and ignorant) than a group of people all being bisexual and slobbering after the PC being unrealistic. Just make good characters, assign a (unique) preference to each character and try to avoid very clear patterns, pitfalls and tropes. I'm sure the rest will follow. With how much people talk about KISA, and this has been going on since forever, I'm kinda honestly getting bored of that whole trope, no matter what sexuality.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 22, 2021 15:33:30 GMT
Or perhaps, fans could have a more mature attitude about it. We rarely get everything we want. And I think it would be unrealistic if all companions were bisexual, everytime. I mean, what are the odds? If I cared about realism at all I wouldn't play video games. Not that I would call having four bisexual people in the party "unrealistic"—at worst, it is statistically unlikely in a random sample of the population, which no RPG party is, at any rate. Only the actual unrealistic elements such as magic can be given the "Oh, it's a fantasy story" excuse. The mundane elements can and should be held to the standards we normally do. "Which no RPG party is". Well... that is breaking the fourth wall, and I think we were looking at this from a in-game perspective.
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Post by Gwydden on Jun 22, 2021 16:38:27 GMT
Only the actual unrealistic elements such as magic can be given the "Oh, it's a fantasy story" excuse. The mundane elements can and should be held to the standards we normally do. "Which no RPG party is". Well... that is breaking the fourth wall, and I think we were looking at this from a in-game perspective. It's not the "Oh, it's a fantasy story" excuse; it's the "Oh, it's fiction" excuse. If I was bothered by a lack of realism, there are far more bothersome things in Dragon Age than an unusually high concentration of people interested in both genders within a particular group.
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Post by fluffysmom on Jun 22, 2021 18:12:51 GMT
But I don't get that part with the "central to the story".
I'm referring to the Solas romance mainly. I don't think it was fair to gate because if your character romances him, what happens in the story really impacts your romance. Clearly, one of the biggest reasons why the Solas romance resonates is because of the betrayal and learning who he really is. That's more than just a romance - that's something that truly impacts the pc. To cut out a huge swath of players from that experience is unfair. The same can be said of Morrigan in Origins. Not only do you get the reveal of her plan at the end, you can choose to have a child and a dlc where you can find her and go to raise your child with her. Then you can find out what her family legacy is and she still has plot relevance by the looks of things in DAI. That’s a bit of extra content I didn’t get as a woman. Yet I’m okay with it. Her friendship path was just as beautiful despite not seeing the extra layers of her learning to love and trust in a much more personal way. (Arguably) Solas is the same. Aside from the valasallin scene itself, it’s four kisses total and some very sad looks. The rest is head cannon material that we torture ourselves with. Whatever resolution there might be, I doubt they’ll add more for a romance than they will a friendship. Probably yet another hero of mine that disappears somewhere. Yay?
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Post by bierkrug on Jun 22, 2021 19:20:13 GMT
That’s a bit of extra content I didn’t get as a woman. Likewise with some classes. Mages seem to get more overall tailored dialogue for them. I usually play rogues and nobody once stopped to ask why my nobleborn character can crack locks all over the place. I'm aware that Cullen's romance gets a bit more context with a mage, etc. I don't mind. Though I would like other professions to get something more.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 22, 2021 23:57:43 GMT
Only the actual unrealistic elements such as magic can be given the "Oh, it's a fantasy story" excuse. The mundane elements can and should be held to the standards we normally do. "Which no RPG party is". Well... that is breaking the fourth wall, and I think we were looking at this from a in-game perspective. It's not the "Oh, it's a fantasy story" excuse; it's the "Oh, it's fiction" excuse. If I was bothered by a lack of realism, there are far more bothersome things in Dragon Age than an unusually high concentration of people interested in both genders within a particular group. My previous response still applies. Suspension of disbelief is meant for the fantastic elements, not the ordinary parts.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 23, 2021 3:34:13 GMT
The characters aren't Earth "humans", so there's absolutely no reason to hold them to Earth standards and expectations regarding sexuality.
The "humans" of Thedas get their emotions from an otherworldy dreamscape populated by ghosts. Real-world rules of psychology or neurology or anything else that might potentially play a role in the development of sexuality in Earthlings simply do not apply.
You can't separate the "fantastical" from the "ordinary", because Thedas has an entirely different standard of "ordinary". Arguments about what is or is not "realistic" are utterly worthless, because Thedas has absolutely no relationship whatsoever with reality.
And the thing is, you all *already know this*, because you willingly accept the absurd mishmash of architecture and fashion drawing influences from all over the world and different times in history, and the orc communism and let's not forget Catholicism for Her(tm), but when someone wants more LGBT or more non-whites, suddenly it's all "BAAAAWWWWW THAT'S NOT REALISTIC THEDAS IS BASED ON MEDIVAL HISTREE SOMETHING SOMETHING STATISTICS BOOHOO MAH IMMERSION SJW PANDERING FREEZE PEACH ARTISTIC INTEGRITY".
The only people you're fooling with that drivel is yourselves.
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Post by bierkrug on Jun 23, 2021 15:37:58 GMT
The characters motivations and emotions are no different from the workings of real humans as far as we have seen, there is nothing alien about them. So we might as well assume that they work like bog standard humans.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 23, 2021 16:15:27 GMT
The characters motivations and emotions are no different from the workings of real humans as far as we have seen, there is nothing alien about them. So we might as well assume that they work like bog standard humans. Their emotions and internal workings ARE different, because they explicitly come from another dimension, and not from complex chemical process in the brain. This is definitively proven by the fact that cutting them off from that dimension cuts them off from their emotions. But even if that weren't the case, and even if you weren't just flat-out literally lying about major content of the game at this point, it doesn't really matter, because it's a fucking made-up place, and it can have the vast majority of its population be bisexual if the writers want it to, and they don't actually need to explain it at all, because there is no rational justification for arguing against it. Comparisons to Earth and real humans simply are not relevant. They are never relevant, because fantasy worlds are not obligated to mimic the real world in any way, that is the entire point of the genre. The only actual argument against having the majority of Thedas be bisexual is that it bothers you personally for some reason. Anything else is just dumb, desperate, grasping nonsense. And if the concept of a made-up place being mostly bisexual DOES bother you personally, that's your problem.
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Post by bierkrug on Jun 23, 2021 16:39:32 GMT
The hell does the way they acquire their emotions have to do with sexuality? They still have the same emotions as earthlings and thus act like every other human out there in the real world. If it hasn't occured to you yet, the majority of humanity isn't bisexual, not because of some repressive woowoo but because that's just how people work. It would take the majority of people a lot of suspension of disbelief to buy into a everyone is bi world. Going by your logic, making everyone straight as an arrow would be flying well, right? And if you have a problem with this super straight fantasy world, that's entirely on you. But even if that weren't the case, and even if you weren't just flat-out literally lying about major content of the game at this point What?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 23, 2021 17:07:00 GMT
The hell does the way they acquire their emotions have to do with sexuality? They still have the same emotions as earthlings and thus act like every other human out there in the real world. If it hasn't occured to you yet, the majority of humanity isn't bisexual, not because of some repressive woowoo but because that's just how people work. It would take the majority of people a lot of suspension of disbelief to buy into a everyone is bi world. Going by your logic, making everyone straight as an arrow would be flying well, right? And if you have a problem with this super straight fantasy world, that's entirely on you. For the last fucking time, Thedas ISN'T FUCKING REAL so IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER what the "majority of humanity" is or isn't because IT ISN'T FUCKING RELEVANT TO ANYTHING. Don't give me this pathetic shit about "suspension of disbelief". If you can swallow dragons, and wizards, and elves and dwarves and spirits and zombies and a planet made of giants that bleed magic and all that other bullshit that DOESN'T FUCKING EXIST AND NEVER HAS, but you can't stomach a high population of bisexuals, then you're just a fucking hypocrite! "Everyone is bisexual here" is not even a fantastical premise! It is something that could theoretically actually happen! And fantasy and sci-fi have been exploring and questioning sexuality ever since the genres first existed! Oh, but you know this already, right? Because you read soooooooooooo much fantasy. I mean... Erickson AND Pratchett? Wow! Oh, and here's a fucking surprise for you, I actually consume tons of media with zero gay representation whatsoever, because THAT'S PRETTY MUCH MY ONLY FUCKING OPTION, and nowhere have I actually advocated for BioWare making the entire population of Thedas bisexual. All I've done is point out that the arguments against more visibility for gays and bisexuals in Thedas are arbitrary, hypocritical and homophobic. Here's an idea, Mister "I have a gay brother ackshually so I CAN'T be homophobic": why don't you actually go back and re-read some fucking Discworld, since Terry Pratchett is apparently the most original and subversive author that your delicate palate can stand, and this time pay attention and see if you absorb some of his subtext about being accepting and inclusive of other people.
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Post by bierkrug on Jun 23, 2021 17:28:44 GMT
Of course it is relevant, it is relevant to suspension of disbelief and I've said as much already. Since the rest of your tirade is just a lowly personal attack, I'm going to ignore it. Misgendering me now too? The horror!
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