Cantina
N3
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Post by Cantina on Sept 4, 2020 10:29:03 GMT
You know that does make me wonder why Bioware thought Sera was a good idea. What was her purpose??!? Sa me purpose as Oghran I suppose. He annoyed the hell out of me, so clichéd and offensive, but some people found him funny. Then he turned up again in Awakening! Why couldn't they have given me Shale or simply Dog again?May be Sera was meant to be the foil to Solas. One is all wrapped up in how great the elves were in the past, the other actually hates being an elf, being identified as an elf or anything remotely "elfy". However, for some reason they had to have her express these ideas in an antagonistic, often offensive, and largely juvenile way. So to me she was just another Oghran, whom I rarely included in my party because I could manage without her and just dropped by her occasionally for another verbal barrage. My first run we never got beyond that and it was all I could do just not simply tell her to get lost but it seemed if the game was going to recognise me as actually caring about the little people, then I had to put up with her. I LOVE Oghren! What adventure is not complete without a drunk dwarf!?! As crazy as it sounds if he was a romance option I would have made a female dwarf for him, LOL!
In my games, I tried to take him everywhere. His innuendo banter had me in stitches. Of course, his humor is like mine, which is probably why I love it so much. And his banter with Alistair and Anders -- I'm dead.
And no, I do not think of him anywhere near as bad as Sera. But eh, everyone has their own likes and dislikes. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png)
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ahglock
N5
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Post by ahglock on Sept 5, 2020 3:15:31 GMT
I'm not even a Jar Jar fan and I think you are doing him dirty with this. D-A-M-N! Never thought I see the day when Jar-Jar would be less annoying than another. Wonders never cease.
You know that does make me wonder why Bioware thought Sera was a good idea. What was her purpose??!? I get why she joined the Inquisition--mostly. But 99% of her dialogue is just so bad. Bioware, "Here is an immature teen who talks nonsense most of the time as a companion for your party. Do enjoy!"
Is this another case of Sandal? I cannot recall who said it down at Bioware, but the reason Sandal was placed in the game was for humor. I for one do not see the humor in making fun of disabled people, but I digress.
I sure the hope Sera or someone like her or him is not in DA4. Bohdan and Sandal? Yes. God, yes! So sad they did not show in DAI I assumed one of the designers had their kid write the character. Because her "jokes" were the kind of crap a 5 year old would find funny. Which you can argue was the point but ut didn't make for a interesting character.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 5, 2020 3:18:50 GMT
Juvenile humour has been a staple of the series since the beginning, so...?
I don't like Sera either, she's annoying as fuck, but she's not remotely out of step with the pre-existing tone of Dragon Age.
Frankly, seeing as how large portions of the fandom seem to think Alistair having cheese on his person is the height of comedic genius, I dunno what people were expecting.
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N3
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Post by Cantina on Sept 5, 2020 8:10:03 GMT
D-A-M-N! Never thought I see the day when Jar-Jar would be less annoying than another. Wonders never cease.
You know that does make me wonder why Bioware thought Sera was a good idea. What was her purpose??!? I get why she joined the Inquisition--mostly. But 99% of her dialogue is just so bad. Bioware, "Here is an immature teen who talks nonsense most of the time as a companion for your party. Do enjoy!"
Is this another case of Sandal? I cannot recall who said it down at Bioware, but the reason Sandal was placed in the game was for humor. I for one do not see the humor in making fun of disabled people, but I digress.
I sure the hope Sera or someone like her or him is not in DA4. Bohdan and Sandal? Yes. God, yes! So sad they did not show in DAI I assumed one of the designers had their kid write the character. Because her "jokes" were the kind of crap a 5 year old would find funny. Which you can argue was the point but ut didn't make for a interesting character. Well, it's not her humor. I expect that type of crap from someone her age. But its how she talks. Its like you need your own sodding riddle book to understand Sera. And on top of it, there is NOTHING you can do to make her grow the hell up. Cole, I understand. Sera? No. I don't speak Daffy Duck on meth and acid.
Juvenile humour has been a staple of the series since the beginning, so...? I don't like Sera either, she's annoying as fuck, but she's not remotely out of step with the pre-existing tone of Dragon Age. Frankly, seeing as how large portions of the fandom seem to think Alistair having cheese on his person is the height of comedic genius, I dunno what people were expecting. (See above)
Wait.... What?!?
I don't recall Al keeping cheese in his pocket. I'll look it up on Youtube later. I know he likes cheese. Which BTW, having cheese all over Fereldan, was just stupid. Not to mention that idiotic cheese wheel shield. Gawd, I cannot wait to see what resources they waste for DA4.
And I for one am all for most types of humor, but how is carrying cheese in one's pocket funny?
People used to do that all the time back before a worker got job rights and regulations. Have a piece of cheese, dried meat/fish or bread wrapped in a kerchief for when you get hungry. No different from grabbing a snack out of a vending machine. People didn't have drive-thrus.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 5, 2020 9:38:26 GMT
Oghren is the worst Dragon Age companion in my book. I found him repulsive. I don't find drunk people funny or cute. I want nothing to do with them in real life. And the only drunk fictional character I enjoyed was Jack Sparrow...
Sera is a VASTLY superior character. She is annoying AF, yes, but she's well written and her story is actually fairly sad. Puls, she fits perfectly into th discussion of faith as somebody who's uneducated and unreflected and who rejects everything that scares her. A lot of peoole are like that. I thought she had HILARIOUS banter with some of the companions. Sera is not stupid at all. She gives Solas crap for being a condescending asshat all the time and I appreciated that. Sera has a lot of smart things to say, it's just the way she talks that drives you insane.
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 5, 2020 10:03:47 GMT
You know that does make me wonder why Bioware thought Sera was a good idea. What was her purpose??!? Same purpose as Oghran I suppose. He annoyed the hell out of me, so clichéd and offensive, but some people found him funny. Then he turned up again in Awakening! Why couldn't they have given me Shale or simply Dog again? May be Sera was meant to be the foil to Solas. One is all wrapped up in how great the elves were in the past, the other actually hates being an elf, being identified as an elf or anything remotely "elfy". However, for some reason they had to have her express these ideas in an antagonistic, often offensive, and largely juvenile way. So to me she was just another Oghran, whom I rarely included in my party because I could manage without her and just dropped by her occasionally for another verbal barrage. My first run we never got beyond that and it was all I could do just not simply tell her to get lost but it seemed if the game was going to recognise me as actually caring about the little people, then I had to put up with her.
I only recruited Sera on my first playthrough. Subsequently i found it much better to simply ignore. Found her horrible/ignorant/bigot in terms of personality
No doubt her form of humour appeals to some but to me it was utterly terrible pre-teen nonsense. Give me issy type humour anyday. Didn't even like the red jenny war table stuff either. So much easier just to cut it all out.
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Onecrazymonkey1
"A person of any mental quality has ideas of his own. This is common sense." Franz Liszt
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Sept 5, 2020 18:12:02 GMT
I can't stand Sera but it wasn't her cheap humor that bothered me just her bigot and trashy personality, which can make sense for the game's setting and the character herself but it wasn't wanted in my party. I made the mistake of first trying her romance with a Dalish elf and she was pretty much emotionally abusive.
Not to mention on her quest she goes insubordinate while I'm in the middle of questioning a guy and stomps his head in, can I at least finish my questions first since I'm the inquisitor and supposed to be calling the shots? And I don't care how much he was asshole, if my characters wanted to kill someone it wouldn't be by stomping their heads in.
When it comes down to the silly jokes, that I didn't mind because I never really liked Bioware's humor, I did find Shale and Zevran pretty funny but that's about it.
Anyway, I'm skeptical of online aspects seeping into and affecting story aspects of the regular single player game, I wouldn't purchase. Also since we are not going to be playing as the inquisitor, I'm not quite sure I even want them to make an appearance now, seeing how badly they messed up my Hawke.
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 5, 2020 19:30:17 GMT
One of my biggest concerns narratively is how DA4 will impact the elves across Thedas.
Honestly, I do not want to have to slaughter hundreds/thousands of elves in this game. And then if/after you win, how will the various nations react in the aftermath?
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 5, 2020 19:38:21 GMT
Not to mention on her quest she goes insubordinate while I'm in the middle of questioning a guy and stomps his head in, can I at least finish my questions first since I'm the inquisitor and supposed to be calling the shots? And I don't care how much he was asshole, if my characters wanted to kill someone it wouldn't be by stomping their heads in. That's what nearly made me order her out of Skyhold my first run and why after that I had little to do with her. If the Inquisitor wants to question someone to get as much information as possible out of them, then that is what they will do. The stupid thing is, if you recruit him to work for the Inquisition then she's okay with that because you're controlling him. The second run my hunter Lavellan put up with her antics much as he would one of the more annoying kids in the clan and that seemed to work. As I say above, though, I wish the "little people" had a better representative to argue their case.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 5, 2020 19:44:07 GMT
One of my biggest concerns narratively is how DA4 will impact the elves across Thedas. Honestly, I do not want to have to slaughter hundreds/thousands of elves in this game. And then if/after you win, how will the various nations react in the aftermath? This has been my worry ever since I heard the rather ominous song "Mercy for the Elves" (otherwise known as the "Slightest Unite") in Trespasser even before Solas revealed his grand plan. It was bad enough in DA2 when the Arishok was supported by waves of elves from the alienage that I was forced to kill. Plus of course the various elf clans you can wipe out if you are not careful across all three games. I've always felt the writers had something against elves even before Solas gave them an excuse to kill yet more elves. So I hope they don't decide that the majority of elves have flocked to his side and he is going to use them as an elven shield against our PC and their party.
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The Elder King
N6
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Post by The Elder King on Sept 5, 2020 21:35:42 GMT
Well, I have little doubt that Solas would have an army of elves alongside him. What I do want, however, is that not all elves go along with that, and oppose him. I mean, if the PC could be (possibly?) elven, and they can oppose Solas, so would/should others. There are reasons for elves to both support and oppose his plans, especially if/when it will he clear if current elves benefit at all from it.
The major problem is that even if the elves would split 50/50 on Solas, I’m not completely sure that, at least with in-game history in mind, the humans wouldn’t attempt to eradicate the allied elves at the end either way. It’s certainly a complicated situation, compared to other antagonists as the Blight/Loghain, the Architect, the Arishok and Corypheus.
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Cantina
N3
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Post by Cantina on Sept 6, 2020 1:59:31 GMT
One of my biggest concerns narratively is how DA4 will impact the elves across Thedas. Honestly, I do not want to have to slaughter hundreds/thousands of elves in this game. And then if/after you win, how will the various nations react in the aftermath? The Chantry and Tevinter have a good head-start. You'll have to work really hard to play catch-up and/or surpass them.
My concern about elves started in DAI.
It makes my blood boil when I here this line, "Elves don't have Templars, so they cannot have too many mages at once."
Another example of Bioware not knowing their previous lore.
Why do this? Because the story needed it. You cannot simply say, "This elf wanted to live with humans and not the Dalish." No. It has to be all dramatic. And of course those who never played the previous two games would be clueless that goes against previous Elven lore.
In the first two games it is pretty clear the elves value magic and do not like The Chantry and any group or guild that is an arm, or a leg, or whatever, of The Chantry.
Second, if you send Fenrayal to the Dalish Camp there is an exchange between the Dalish and the Templars.
Dalish Hunter, "Elves were using magic when your primitive ancestors still lived like beasts."
Third, why the hell would Dalish give a shit about Templars? Let alone thinking they need them to control their Dalish mages.
In DA2 Hawke can ask Merrill, "Can a Keeper become possessed?"
Merrill replies, "It can happen. And when it does The Clan must hunt and kill their own Keeper."
But in DAI, Bioware chose to change it -- in-directly, Merrill, "It can happen and when it does, the clan must hunt and kill their own Keeper," <----(Bioware employee), Note: Change the dialogue to, The Clan seeks out the closes Templars to come in and deal with the issue.
And lastly, I have a very hard time believing the Dalish would send Mennave of their out of their camp because she is a mage; especially at a young age.
DAO:
Lore Keeper: "Gather around children. I have an important announcement to make. How many of you have experienced any magic through thoughts, dreams, actions or even feelings?"
Three out of the ten children raise their hand.
Lore Keeper, "Good. Thank you for being honest. Each of you will be given a pack and then be banished from The Clan."
Male Elven Child: "Um. Lore Keeper, why do we need to do this? I thought the clan was our home, and we liked magic??!?"
Female Child: "Yeah! You taught us we lost a lot to humans. So, why are we being sent to live with them?"
Lore Keeper, "Oh do not ask children. But to make this kicking out, err, transition easier, I had our Clan cook make some cookies. You all love cookies! I placed them in each of your packs. Now, grab your pack and go live with the humans we all hate"
As to what is going to happen with Solas and the elves in DA4, at a guess, the story will probably follow the same bullshit that was in DAI.
DA2 ended on a cliffhanger, I assumed the third game would be this huge Mage/Templar War, and we can play Hawke again. Truth be told, I was looking forward to it.
What did we get instead?
A new character and forced to make an idiotic choice, to side with the Mages or the Templars, (not both, cause goodness forbid that would make too much sense). And once you "fixed" that issue, just like magic the war is over. Oh, yes. Good times.
(By the way, I just love the line from Alistair, "One way or another you are leaving my kingdom." Me: <blinks at the T.V. completely dumbfounded by what was just said,> "Um. Haven is still in your kingdom." This writing…(lowers head, sighs and mutters), "Gawd dammit," under my breath).
So, for DA4 you'll make a new character, have a choice between, City or Dalish elves. Solve whatever their "issue" is, and that is it, you're done. Solas war over.
You are now free to deal with whatever 1990s Capcom villain Bioware has made for the game. And surprise, it will be another pointless and uninteresting "villain." Who will appear when the story needs him or her to appear; simply to reassure the player, the villain does exist.
And Bioware will include cliché villain dialogue to really sell it to the player that this villain is evil, "I am evil! Fear me! Muhaaa! Grrr!" The villain will disappear and reappear when the story demands him or her to do so. When that time comes, the former process will be repeated.
But in the meantime do enjoy fighting the same lackluster enemies throughout the game.
And as a bonus we added a big old F--you option in the game's settings. You'll be able to engage with interesting combatants and more bears. I mean we could have added interesting enemies to fight from the start, but that would just take away the hand-holding experience. That will be sixty-dollars for DA4, please.
P.S.
Your clan is dead.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2020 8:18:59 GMT
(By the way, I just love the line from Alistair, "One way or another you are leaving my kingdom." Me: <blinks at the T.V. completely dumbfounded by what was just said,> "Um. Haven is still in your kingdom." This writing…(lowers head, sighs and mutters), "Gawd dammit," under my breath).
Surely you didn't miss the bit where some Orlesian comes to Haven to maintain he owns the place because some King gave it to him or his wife or something. When exactly? No one even knew about the place until 10 years ago. As for the general area, surely that is Ferelden and the Orlesians lost any claim over it when Maric drove them out? Then when we are going to Therinfall to persuade the Templars to come on side, we are supported by Orlesian nobles, yet it is deep in Ferelden territory. What are the even doing there? Aren't they supposed to be caught up in the civil war? Where are all the Ferelden nobles? Also, why do they all insist on wearing masks even though they are no longer in the Orlesian Court? MoA had it right with Duke Prosper and his cronies, when you are not in Orlais you don't wear masks. It so irritated me that they continued to do this at Skyhold. Sorry, folks, my house my rules and I want to see who I'm dealing with. Then when we get to the Winter Palace the guards are wearing masks. In Masked Empire it specifically states guards do not for obvious reasons. The Chevalier we meet out in the field is also wearing a mask. They are for the Orlesian Court only. What idiot would wear one on battlefield? Plus for an important peace conference the Conclave had surprisingly few important people actually there. It is understandable that the leaders of the respective factions might send their deputies but nevertheless: Fiona, Rhys, Evangeline, who were all responsible for starting the rebellion, were not there; Lucius was not there; Court Enchanter Vivienne was not there; Cassandra and Leliana were not there even though they should have been guarding the Divine; Hawke was not there yet apparently the Divine thought they were important, so why even start the Conclave until they had been located or definitely ruled out? Plus, an apostate mage had blown the Kirkwall Chantry sky high, the Resolutionists had been carrying on a campaign of terror against the Chantry across southern Thedas, an attempt had already been made on the life of Divine Justinia in 9:40, yet security was so lax that a Dalish spy, a Carta dwarf, Corypheus and his Grey Wardens were all able to gain entrance when they had no business being there. I've always agreed about the recon of Dalish lore being nonsensical but it wasn't the only aspect for which you had to suspend disbelief.
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Post by Cantina on Sept 6, 2020 9:41:06 GMT
(By the way, I just love the line from Alistair, "One way or another you are leaving my kingdom." Me: <blinks at the T.V. completely dumbfounded by what was just said,> "Um. Haven is still in your kingdom." This writing…(lowers head, sighs and mutters), "Gawd dammit," under my breath).
Surely you didn't miss the bit where some Orlesian comes to Haven to maintain he owns the place because some King gave it to him or his wife or something. When exactly? No one even knew about the place until 10 years ago. As for the general area, surely that is Ferelden and the Orlesians lost any claim over it when Maric drove them out? Then when we are going to Therinfall to persuade the Templars to come on side, we are supported by Orlesian nobles, yet it is deep in Ferelden territory. What are the even doing there? Aren't they supposed to be caught up in the civil war? Where are all the Ferelden nobles? Also, why do they all insist on wearing masks even though they are no longer in the Orlesian Court? MoA had it right with Duke Prosper and his cronies, when you are not in Orlais you don't wear masks. It so irritated me that they continued to do this at Skyhold. Sorry, folks, my house my rules and I want to see who I'm dealing with. Then when we get to the Winter Palace the guards are wearing masks. In Masked Empire it specifically states guards do not for obvious reasons. The Chevalier we meet out in the field is also wearing a mask. They are for the Orlesian Court only. What idiot would wear one on battlefield? Plus for an important peace conference the Conclave had surprisingly few important people actually there. It is understandable that the leaders of the respective factions might send their deputies but nevertheless: Fiona, Rhys, Evangeline, who were all responsible for starting the rebellion, were not there; Lucius was not there; Court Enchanter Vivienne was not there; Cassandra and Leliana were not there even though they should have been guarding the Divine; Hawke was not there yet apparently the Divine thought they were important, so why even start the Conclave until they had been located or definitely ruled out? Plus, an apostate mage had blown the Kirkwall Chantry sky high, the Resolutionists had been carrying on a campaign of terror against the Chantry across southern Thedas, an attempt had already been made on the life of Divine Justinia in 9:40, yet security was so lax that a Dalish spy, a Carta dwarf, Corypheus and his Grey Wardens were all able to gain entrance when they had no business being there. I've always agreed about the recon of Dalish lore being nonsensical but it wasn't the only aspect for which you had to suspend disbelief. No. I did not miss that among many other inconsistencies.
The conversation you point out, between your character, Josie and the Orlesian was just painful.
Orlesian: "I will not let an upstart order remain on her holy grounds."
Hearld: "Interesting. Considering the Inquisition was begun by the Left and Right Hands of Divine."
Orlesian, "I see no written records from Sister Leilana or Seeker Pentaghast that Divine Justina approved of the Inquisition."
Less than a minute earlier.....
Cassandra slams this huge tome on the War Table and points to it.
"Do you know what this is, Chancellor? A writ from The Divine giving us the authority to act. From this moment forward I declare The Inquisition reborn. We will close the Breech. Find those who are responsible with or without your approval."
(Whew. Yes, did that all from memory). So, back to back cutscenes, we have crystal clear dialogue issues and Bioware did not catch this?!? BTW, how the hell is that Orlesian's mask staying on? Glue? Gosh, that always bugs me when I see it. That and those silly Orlesian hats men wear. They look like Mickey Mouse. ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/aCYreiXWLepPDsSBAqBw.png)
Hell, they did even get Haven's location correct on the map, let alone the correct layout of Haven and Redcliffe, LOL! Really Bioware. Really?!?
With what we have listed, I am sure we could create several pages of just how bad the writing is in DAI. Cause yes, it is that bad.
Damn its sad.
I really hope it's not this bad in DA4 or worse. I know, I know, I maybe jinxing it, but damn, LOL!
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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 6, 2020 10:29:27 GMT
I've always felt the writers had something against elves even before Solas gave them an excuse to kill yet more elves. I never thought about it but maybe that's why I've grown to dislike most elves. *g* I thought DAO was fairly pro elves by showing how badly they are treated. Especially city elves. So it was understandable why the Dalish were such jerks to humans. They didn't want to end up like the city elves. Their arrogant pride made sense. DAI made the Dalish look like idiots. Which I admit I kind of enjoyed because they ARE condescending jerks most of the time. I liked the irony of their ignorance. But yeah, it's an interesting question. What's Bioware trying to do? The noble elves trope has been deconstructed many times before, so that's not a novel idea. I don't have a problem with the current situation yet. We've learned that the modern elves are descendants of slaves. Their markings are the remnants of the ancient society whose meaning has been lost and reimagined. (I thought that revelation was one of the best moments in the game.) So both the city elves and the Dalish are still victims of abuse. If Solas rallies the elves against humans, then that's even worse manipulation and abuse. If we have to kill lots of elves in DA4 it sure doesn't mean that's a cool thing. I get why this might make people uncomfortable, and I'm not saying it's something I'd like to see, but it COULD be used as a shocking narrative element. The reason I don't want to see it is that it would turn Solas into a truly evil villain who becomes irredeemable. So that would be boring. The more important question will be how many of the elves will fall for Elven Glory and turn on humans. If every single elf were to spit in my face, even former friends, I'd be mad. I doubt Bioware will pull such crap. I'm not even convinced we'll see a full blown elven war. I'm expecting war with the qunari while Solas is doing his thing in the background, preparing. Maybe he doesn't need the elves as allies at all. We might only face a few of his elven agents we then have to dispose of. Small groups. That's OK by me. Solas might use th qunari threat as a distraction so that he doesn't need an army of his own. The Solas plot is the least of my concerns. I consider Solas and the ancient elves the best thing about DAI. Absolutely LOVED everything about it. The temple of Mythal scene is one of the best in the series to me. I held Weekes in high regard for it. But these days I don't have faith in anyone at Bioware anymore. So we'll see how it turns out.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2020 12:25:51 GMT
Absolutely LOVED everything about it. The temple of Mythal scene is one of the best in the series to me. I held Weekes in high regard for it Was he responsible for that? After all David Gaider was lead writer then. I loved all the elven lore we got in DAI but it still left a lot of unanswered questions. The problem also with the elf plot is that you only learn about the significance of the vallaslin if you romance Solas. Corypheus trolls Lavellan with it but it is easy to miss and why would they pay attention to him? Then the Inquisitor might see stuff going through Trespasser but it is only going to be passed on to modern Dalish if the Inquisitor is an elf. Also, as you say, they now have a different, opposite meaning, to the one they had in ancient times. "We are the last of the elvhen and never again will we submit", might seem ironic in hindsight of history but it is the sentiment of the Dalish now. They were the elves who wouldn't submit to tyranny, so you'd think he'd admire their attitude if nothing else, but of course they are going to be sitting ducks to be manipulated by him, unless they pay attention to their own lore and remember he is the Trickster God. Also, there did seem a move away from making an even handed view of history to one of the Dalish were always in the wrong. Look at the resolution of the whole Red Crossing incident and then even more what they revealed in Jaws of Hakkon. Ameridan was a friend of Drakon, the Dalish were wrong not to help with the Blight because they didn't like Drakon. (I still maintain that they tried but arrived too late and what about the Warden treaties that they honour in DAO, plus that story of the clan up in the Anderfels during the 2nd Blight?) No one puts the Dalish side of things or tries to defend them, everyone accepts it was all their fault. Sera even compares it to her Pride Cookies, which trivialised the whole thing. It wasn't pride that stopped the Dalish helping, if it did stop them helping, they thought Drakon was worse than Tevinter and if you read the history of his rise to power, they were right. Ameridan admits that Drakon wanted to "simplify things" with regard to religion and yet was okay with Ameridan worshipping both the Maker and the elven gods. Strangely enough no one mentioned that in subsequent Blights the Orlesians only helped if they thought there was something in it for them and even with the second blight, Drakon was using it to spread his religion and annex nations into his empire. What also annoyed me in Trespasser was that when we caught up with Solas we are not allowed to ask or receive answers that might be really helpful. Just have Solas expound his contribution to the downfall of the elves and why he now wants to reverse it. It was just a big set up for the next game. If the Trespasser plot had solely concentrated on the Qunari threat, we could have tied off the Inquisitor story as they claim was their intention, just have one of their companions chop off their hand to save their life, make the decision over the future of the Inquisition and that would have been it. All the controversy over whether we should have had a new PC could have been avoided. We would also not have the situation where we aren't even clear which elves he is trying to save: ancient, modern city elves, all of them? I'd also like for the elves who oppose him not just to be those who appear to have rejected their own society already. How about a Dalish clan that considers it morally wrong to wipe out all the other races or alternatively it is a crime against nature to alter the fabric of reality a second time? As for the city elves, my sympathies are with them if he has recruited them en mass simply because everyone else treats them so badly, they feel they have nothing to lose. That was already the case with their recruitment by the Qun. Please don't let Solas manipulate them en mass as well.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 6, 2020 15:38:07 GMT
It makes my blood boil when I here this line, "Elves don't have Templars, so they cannot have too many mages at once."
Another example of Bioware not knowing their previous lore. With regards to this, I'm not sure if they are forgetting lore or if they are less able to consider different perspectives on the meta-level. Instead of viewing the setting from a neutral perspective, they seem prone of viewing it from a southern andrastian perspective only. I'm not sure if this is due to a large-scale turnover on the writing crew, with the "newer guys" simply not getting the gist of source bias and multiple perspectives. How many times did I have to revert wiki edits of people who took the whole Minaeve issue far too strictly? I thought DAO was fairly pro elves by showing how badly they are treated. Especially city elves. So it was understandable why the Dalish were such jerks to humans. They didn't want to end up like the city elves. Their arrogant pride made sense. Why dislike them so intensely then? Did you get hacked by Sera? ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/bdCEvNVatVNAsdHGmbkp.png) If we have to kill lots of elves in DA4 it sure doesn't mean that's a cool thing. I get why this might make people uncomfortable, and I'm not saying it's something I'd like to see, but it COULD be used as a shocking narrative element. The reason I don't want to see it is that it would turn Solas into a truly evil villain who becomes irredeemable. So that would be boring. Oh, agreed. I'm musing about this ever since the "Red Wolf Rises" trailer, because Warden reasoning: "Is blighted, must kill." I'd also like for the elves who oppose him not just to be those who appear to have rejected their own society already. Yeah. This "elves cannot be competent (or heros) unless they are (at least partially) andrastian" trend is not just rather annoying for "elf fans", but it also may be seen as sending a creepy message on the meta-level.
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Post by Frost on Sept 6, 2020 15:38:16 GMT
As for the city elves, my sympathies are with them if he has recruited them en mass simply because everyone else treats them so badly, they feel they have nothing to lose. That was already the case with their recruitment by the Qun. Please don't let Solas manipulate them en mass as well. It is not clear to me if modern elves would live or die with Solas's plan. If they would live, I would expect large numbers of city elves to willingly join him, no manipulation needed. They have been treated so badly by humans that many might not care if the cost of Solas's plan is humans dying. They have much to gain with Solas's plan, and as you said, little to lose.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2020 16:05:21 GMT
Well according to a character in Tevinter Nights their sales pitch for gaining recruits is something along the lines of "Join us and we'll bring back the glory days. It may involve killing Shems and you'll get some opportunity for pay back with your oppressors." What they didn't mention is anything about "Join us and you'll fry eventually along with the rest of them but at least you'll get your revenge." As we agree, city elves might not mind either way but whilst they might not shed any tears over the non-elves that die, on the whole I think they would get more satisfaction from actually being around to see it and then enjoy the fruits of their labour. Mind you, considering the whole "death before capture" thing, it does seem that the most dedicated fanatics are willing to die for the cause.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 6, 2020 18:01:56 GMT
Absolutely LOVED everything about it. The temple of Mythal scene is one of the best in the series to me. I held Weekes in high regard for it Was he responsible for that? After all David Gaider was lead writer then. I loved all the elven lore we got in DAI but it still left a lot of unanswered questions. I hold Weekes in high regard for Solas, I just lumped that together with the elven plot overall. I don't actually know who wrote that scene, sorry! I know. I kind of like it that way even though because it makes the scene so heart breaking, but yeah, it's a HUGE deal that a lot of players probably missed... Then again, it's easy to reveal it again in DA4. Definitely! I agree that the Dalish shouldn't get the idiot ball and all fall for Solas who doesn't even like them because they were too stupid to remember their own history properly. The Dalish have been jerks and idiots for way too long. Time they do something cool for a change, not just find corrupted eluvians and get their own people killed because, again, they don't really know what they're doing, lol. My memory of the storyline you mention is very foggy, so I'll just take your word for it that the Dalish always look bad. They do! I'd like to believe that Bioware knows what they're doing but we all know they make it up as they go. So who knows how the Solas angle will connect to the qunari threat and what the inquisitor will or will not have to say about all of it (in a cameo of working form the shadows). I expect a lot of things to get brushed under the rug tbh. I'd like that!
Why dislike them so intensely then? Did you get hacked by Sera? ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/bdCEvNVatVNAsdHGmbkp.png) I dunno, I guess because, as discussed above, the Dalish are jerks AND they always do stupid things. I get why they are the way they are, and pretty much everyone in Thedas is a moron, but I just don't like them (anymore). They are in good company though because there are very few people/groups I like in this world, lol.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 6, 2020 18:57:37 GMT
Yeah. This "elves cannot be competent (or heros) unless they are (at least partially) andrastian" trend is not just rather annoying for "elf fans", but it also may be seen as sending a creepy message on the meta-level. I don't see such a trend. Even if we flag Merrill as incompetent, what are the other data points?
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 19:15:50 GMT
Yeah. This "elves cannot be competent (or heros) unless they are (at least partially) andrastian" trend is not just rather annoying for "elf fans", but it also may be seen as sending a creepy message on the meta-level. I don't see such a trend. Even if we flag Merrill as incompetent, what are the other data points? I even have a hard time calling her incompetent...any DA companion naturally has a level of competency...just naive and desperate as hell.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2020 20:11:20 GMT
They are in good company though because there are very few people/groups I like in this world, lol. I'd probably qualify this by saying there are very few societies and organisations in mainstream life in Thedas that I particularly like but I tend to be drawn to those on the fringes. Whilst I could see the faults in the Dalish in DAO, I nevertheless respected them for their independence and refusal to roll over. Strangely enough, the same time as they did their final hatch job on the Dalish, they introduced the Avvar to us and I rather took to them, which was obviously intentional on the part of the writers. It was rather curious though that these isolationist barbarians, who had been shown to be somewhat aggressive throughout Ferelden history, were for the most part very accommodating. It was only the bad guy Jaws of Hakkon that were the exception. Now may be that was meant to show how prejudiced the "civilised" nations are but it was jarring the contrast between the attitude towards the historical Dalish and the modern day Avvar or even the historical Avvar. So it is okay to have a human group who have on the whole spent their time rejecting mainstream human society and even openly attacking it but make the only alternative for elves being stomped on in the cities be vilified at every opportunity. In DAO the Dalish might be hostile towards humans but they were happy enough to take any elves fleeing the cities. In fact the story teller even said that one day, when they finally had a homeland again, the city elves might be able to teach the Dalish something about how to get on with their human neighbours. Then in Masked Empire Patrick Weakes ignores everything that was said in DAO to produce the most bigoted clan imaginable, whose keeper rejects city elves as impossibly polluted by humans. Finally, in DAI, among all the other rubbish concerning the 3-mage rule, Solas claims that the reason we may have done things differently in our clan is because the clans are growing apart over the years. Odd thing that. They have a gathering of the clans every 10 years to avoid that very situation but the most annoying part about that is that my Dalish is being lectured to by Solas (written by PW) about the Dalish. How in the hell does he know what true Dalish customs are or how the various clans differ? Or was he going on what Felassan told him about that clan in Masked Empire? Likewise my Dalish being told by Iron Bull (again written by PW) why "Dalish" had to leave her clan. Every time my Dalish, who is actually a Dalish, tries to challenge the impression being given by Minaeve, Solas, Vivienne and Iron Bull, the answer is the clans have grown apart. What in just 10 years because back in DAO there was no suggestion of this and whilst how the Dalish conducted themselves with the humans might differ between clans, the really important things like how you treat city elves that want to join you and how you treat your mages was exactly the same no matter which clan we went to. So if you dislike the Dalish it is because the writers have steadily been undermining them with each successive game and book. To be really honest, I hope the Dalish reject Fen'Harel en mass because they don't trust him, they never have and they never will. Yah boo sucks Solas, they don't think you are some misunderstood hero of the elves but if you do drop the Veil and the elven gods return, they really hope they kick your ass.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 6, 2020 20:18:43 GMT
gervaise21Remember, like Rian Johnson Luke Skywalker said "everything you know is wrong". It's a very easy way for every writer to piss on anything that inconveniences the story they are trying to tell. It's something that DA and ME have done many times over.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2020 20:39:22 GMT
gervaise21Remember, like Rian Johnson Luke Skywalker said "everything you know is wrong". It's a very easy way for every writer to piss on anything that inconveniences the story they are trying to tell. It's something that DA and ME have done many times over. Luke never uttered those words. What he said was "this is not going to go the way you think" which was...correct. There is also good narrative reason for it. How many times are we wrong IRL? How many times do new information about history changes the way we see history?
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