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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 16, 2024 12:06:40 GMT
As much as I enjoy BG3, the added epilogue kinda bored me? Don't really care to hear about your farm animals, how you're now a teacher or you're adopting orphans. There's virtual novel or farm games like Stardew Valley if I want some of that. Rather have companion reactive to main plot or with interesting side quests. I want both. Loved the new epilogues (the ones before the new patch, haven't checked the latest one out yet), lucky bitch Shadowheart is living my dream life now! I do enjoy romances and I am super disappointed when a movie or TV show or book doesn't have one, I ship the shit out of certain characters, but in games romances are often cringe, including most BioWare romances. BioWare is NOT amazing in the romance department for me but then again I'm the odd one, I am aware. I am put off by heavy flirting in real life too. I'd run for the hills in most BioWare games, lol. BioWare has always written friendships much better imo. Friendship and banter is what was BioWare Magic to me. Plot was NEVER their strong suit. Narrative, yes. Highly emotional narrative. Heroic AF narrative. But plot? Witcher 2 mopped the floor with Bioware in that department back in the glory days already. I love when characters are linked to the story like Alistair and Morrigan. Bonus points if the romance is connected too. I DO love it when a game gives characters room to breathe and grow and you get attached to them. They need to be well written though, they need to do interesting things in an interesting story. As has been discussed to death over the years, the universal love for ME2 and companions has given BioWare the wrong impression, I believe. I do NOT want Citadel cheese in my main game. It was a send-off at the end of an amazing journey. A good time before the big sacrifice. These days it feels like BioWare wants their entire games to be Citadel level of goofy companion celebration. And there ARE people who are happy with that development. Me, I want amazing characters inside an amazing story who do interesting things related to that story. All happening in an interesting setting with cool details and consistency. Not saying Veilguard can't be exactly that. But ME2 definitely has the weakest story, or rather fairly light story. The meat of the game was companion recruitment and loyalty missions. This worked because ME1 did all the heavy lifting in terms of world building. So ME2 zoomed in and fleshed out the races and conflicts more. And it was great. I wouldn't want DAV to be ME2 on steroids though where the story is even thinner and everyone is just into each other and having the Citadel best friends DLC life while the world around is falling apart and nobody cares too much. It's always a balancing act to get story and character focus and romance right. And what's right is subjective of course. We'll see how it plays out.
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Post by emissaryoflies on Oct 16, 2024 12:45:11 GMT
As much as I enjoy BG3, the added epilogue kinda bored me? Don't really care to hear about your farm animals, how you're now a teacher or you're adopting orphans. There's virtual novel or farm games like Stardew Valley if I want some of that. Rather have companion reactive to main plot or with interesting side quests. I wouldn't want DAV to be ME2 on steroids though where the story is even thinner and everyone is just into each other and having the Citadel best friends DLC life while the world around is falling apart and nobody cares too much. It's always a balancing act to get story and character focus and romance right. And what's right is subjective of course. We'll see how it plays out. It certainly appears that we may just be getting that with the laser focused companion aspect of the marketing we've seen thus far. Not to mention the name and direction change from Dreadwolf to being about the Veilguard. And then there's the very light hearted dialogue we've seen in quite perilous situations. How Bellara doesn't seem to shut up for a single solitary second of anyone's playthrough. And the fact that Rook meets up with Varric and Harding in a fucking bar fight. Kind of like a certain scene in a dlc where the protagonist gets into a shoot out with generic mooks in conspicuous call of duty gear. And the whole situation is played for laughs. Cheesy early 2000's action movie laughs. Holy shit. It'll be a miracle, if this game is not as you described.
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Post by Reznore on Oct 16, 2024 12:51:03 GMT
I wouldn't want DAV to be ME2 on steroids though where the story is even thinner and everyone is just into each other and having the Citadel best friends DLC life while the world around is falling apart and nobody cares too much. It's always a balancing act to get story and character focus and romance right. And what's right is subjective of course. We'll see how it plays out. It certainly appears that we may just be getting that with the laser focused companion aspect of the marketing we've seen thus far. Not to mention the name and direction change from Dreadwolf to being about the Veilguard. And then there's the very light hearted dialogue we've seen in quite perilous situations. How Bellara doesn't seem to shut up for a single solitary second of anyone's playthrough. And the fact that Rook meets up with Varric and Harding in a fucking bar fight. Kind of like a certain scene in a dlc where the protagonist gets into a shoot out with generic mooks in conspicuous call of duty gear. And the whole situation is played for laughs. Cheesy early 2000's action movie laughs. Holy shit. It'll be a miracle, if this game is not as you described. Come on. I want the Black City. I want Mythal to scream bloody vengeance while she goes on a bloody rampage. (and bitchslap Solas into oblivion) Something cool with the dwarves in the Deep Roads. Cool Qunari like in DA2 (I know this won't happen...) I want to play a Grey Warden so I can tell folks to STFU I'm blighted we all got problems.
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emissaryoflies
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Post by emissaryoflies on Oct 16, 2024 13:06:58 GMT
It certainly appears that we may just be getting that with the laser focused companion aspect of the marketing we've seen thus far. Not to mention the name and direction change from Dreadwolf to being about the Veilguard. And then there's the very light hearted dialogue we've seen in quite perilous situations. How Bellara doesn't seem to shut up for a single solitary second of anyone's playthrough. And the fact that Rook meets up with Varric and Harding in a fucking bar fight. Kind of like a certain scene in a dlc where the protagonist gets into a shoot out with generic mooks in conspicuous call of duty gear. And the whole situation is played for laughs. Cheesy early 2000's action movie laughs. Holy shit. It'll be a miracle, if this game is not as you described. Come on. I want the Black City. I want Mythal to scream bloody vengeance while she goes on a bloody rampage. (and bitchslap Solas into oblivion) Something cool with the dwarves in the Deep Roads. Cool Qunari like in DA2 (I know this won't happen...) I want to play a Grey Warden so I can tell folks to STFU I'm blighted we all got problems. I believe Epler or another dev said we'll get information on the Black City but they're going to leave certain elements a mystery forever. A wise decision. Hopefully Morrigan/Mythal/Flemythal/Flemythorigal will conflict with Solas. That would be interesting. The Deep Roads have to be a mess to say nothing of Dwarven society in general. The Qunari are the wild cards here. And the Wardens, if written competently, could be integral to the plot in an entertaining way. Will it be balanced properly and will the tone be recognizably Dragon Age? They have a puncher's chance.
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Post by Reznore on Oct 16, 2024 13:31:32 GMT
Come on. I want the Black City. I want Mythal to scream bloody vengeance while she goes on a bloody rampage. (and bitchslap Solas into oblivion) Something cool with the dwarves in the Deep Roads. Cool Qunari like in DA2 (I know this won't happen...) I want to play a Grey Warden so I can tell folks to STFU I'm blighted we all got problems. I believe Epler or another dev said we'll get information on the Black City but they're going to leave certain elements a mystery forever. A wise decision. Hopefully Morrigan/Mythal/Flemythal/Flemythorigal will conflict with Solas. That would be interesting. The Deep Roads have to be a mess to say nothing of Dwarven society in general. The Qunari are the wild cards here. And the Wardens, if written competently, could be integral to the plot in an entertaining way. Will it be balanced properly and will the tone be recognizably Dragon Age? They have a puncher's chance. They're never telling if the Maker is real or not. Although everything points out at it not really being a thing. I feel like the Qunari are going to get butchered. Think red lyrium templar. Just corrupted ennemies for you to slay without much thoughts. Not happy if it turns out this way. Wardens could be real good, but the warden companion with cute baby griffin scares me a little. Not sure what the DA tone is these days. We shall see (and I will probably whine endlessly )
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 16, 2024 13:35:13 GMT
I want a proper answer to the Black City/Golden City! They can leave the maker a mystery. Unless it could be turned into a world shattering cool twist reveal, we don't need to know. If it's Sandal though we need to know, lol!
I'm fine with leaving SOME things to the imagination, as long as it doesn't reek of a lazy "we had no idea where we were going with this so we'll leave up for the player to decide" cop-out.
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Post by Guardian on Oct 16, 2024 13:44:29 GMT
Ugh. Just watched a gameplay video and BioWare is doing it again - the good old "we're standing here having a little chat when we really should be getting our asses in gear and DO something". Remember the Chargers vs Qunari decision in DAI? You can see the action going on in the background, you want to rush in and sort it out, but nooo, you're forced into a conversation so you can "make a decision". And sure enough, in the video I watched Rook and his gang do the same thing... twice within a few minutes of gameplay. They're talking to people in very obvious mortal danger and instead of rushing in and cutting them loose and maybe applying some healing magic or potions, they stand there and chat. What's next, asking directions to the nearest pub from a random villager while he's being gnawed on by two darkspawn? This really frustrated me the first time I saw it - they're going to get swarmed, then why are we just standing here, on a hill, when we could reach them quite easily in time to save them? We could have done both! For the record, I'm actually playing through ME2, and I don't think the main story is trash lol. It's fit for purpose. It may take a backseat to the companion stories, but that's built into the narrative itself. The collector mystery, the illusive man, and the suicide mission are all still compelling. I guess calling the main story of ME 2 "hot garbage" was a tad much, and I did enjoy it. But it felt a bit out of place, meaning it should have lead off initially with the Collectors, leading us to the Reapers (yes, this debate isn't new and has been done to death). Still, I will go back and replay ME2 anytime (I've lost count how many times I've played it after my 20th run). It certainly appears that we may just be getting that with the laser focused companion aspect of the marketing we've seen thus far. Not to mention the name and direction change from Dreadwolf to being about the Veilguard. And then there's the very light hearted dialogue we've seen in quite perilous situations. How Bellara doesn't seem to shut up for a single solitary second of anyone's playthrough. And the fact that Rook meets up with Varric and Harding in a fucking bar fight. Kind of like a certain scene in a dlc where the protagonist gets into a shoot out with generic mooks in conspicuous call of duty gear. And the whole situation is played for laughs. Cheesy early 2000's action movie laughs. Holy shit. It'll be a miracle, if this game is not as you described. Come on. I want the Black City. I want Mythal to scream bloody vengeance while she goes on a bloody rampage. (and bitchslap Solas into oblivion) Something cool with the dwarves in the Deep Roads. Cool Qunari like in DA2 (I know this won't happen...) I want to play a Grey Warden so I can tell folks to STFU I'm blighted we all got problems. I'd like to see the Black City, too. Ever since finding both the Urn of Sacred Ashes and then Corypheus in Legacy, there's actual truth to this "fanciful tale". The Urn was a miracle, really, but I still just chalked it up to "RPG plot elements" when I first found it. Having a blighted magister that cried out for Dumat because he invaded the Golden City? Okay.... something went down, more than what the Chantry is telling us. The Deep Roads have to be a mess to say nothing of Dwarven society in general. The Qunari are the wild cards here. And the Wardens, if written competently, could be integral to the plot in an entertaining way. Will it be balanced properly and will the tone be recognizably Dragon Age? They have a puncher's chance. Speaking of the Deep Roads, my guess is somehow this is going to lead to the end of the Blight, and we'll never see the Deep Roads again. And we'll never see a Dwarven city like Orzammar again, unless it too, gets a "revision". My guess is they'll have Bhelen become King, only in order to dismantle the caste system so everyone can "live happily", like what they sort of did with the Qun (sort of....the Qun is still strict, just...not what it once was). This is why I keep saying that "A Paragon of Her Kind" is the only difficult choice to make in Origins, especially if you've played a Dwarf Noble. Yes, this is what happens if you put Bhelen on the throne, while Harromont will keep tradition going. But he dies shortly after becoming King, so everything goes right back to how it was before you intervene. Now that I think about it, this might be one of the reasons why none of the decisions made in Origins matters.
You could argue the others are "short lived" to really have stuck around, but the ruler of Orzammar? That and the Anvil would have long lasting repercussions, especially if you sided with Harromont. "Volunteers" for the Anvil to make golems? Nope, we can't have any of that. If you side with Harrowmont, not only does Orzammar become isolated, but there are surface raids by the golems and Branka. And Dusters are prohibited from even setting foot out of the Slums, which leads to a rebellion, and in turn, it becoming even more nothing. To be fair, Bhelen does become like a tyrant, which is why this choice is hard. I think the Qunari will be somehow also undergoing a "reformation", because we can't have diverse elements that are morally gray in a fantasy world. As for any tone being balanced properly, I highly doubt they even have a puncher's chance at this point. Especially if everything being said by modern day BioWare is any indication to go by.
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Post by LawBringerSR2 on Oct 16, 2024 13:53:47 GMT
I want a proper answer to the Black City/Golden City! They can leave the maker a mystery. Unless it could be turned into a world shattering cool twist reveal, we don't need to know. If it's Sandal though we need to know, lol! I'm fine with leaving SOME things to the imagination, as long as it doesn't reek of a lazy "we had no idea where we were going with this so we'll leave up for the player to decide" cop-out. This is literally what interests me the most about this game (perhaps the only thing), if they'll finally answer the question about the Black City. Back in Origins times it was the big mystery and the single most fascinating element of the DA universe.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 16, 2024 18:20:58 GMT
I guess calling the main story of ME 2 "hot garbage" was a tad much, and I did enjoy it. But it felt a bit out of place, meaning it should have lead off initially with the Collectors, leading us to the Reapers (yes, this debate isn't new and has been done to death). Still, I will go back and replay ME2 anytime (I've lost count how many times I've played it after my 20th run) If the trilogy were to be remade, ME2 could replace ME1 as the first game with a few changes. Here's what I said about that.
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Post by Sartoz on Oct 16, 2024 22:20:26 GMT
Pre-order sales numbers appear weak and the game has not broken through the Steam top 50. Go here for more.
At first I thought it was clickbait... However, numbers are given and they do look weak. Still, they may be better around the world.
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Post by Little Bengel on Oct 16, 2024 22:30:03 GMT
Pre-order sales numbers appear weak and the game has not broken through the Steam top 50. Go here for more.
At first I thought it was clickbait... However, numbers are given and they do look weak. Still, they may be better around the world.
SteamDB implies otherwise, since it currently has Veilguard at #39 among the global top sellers, from what I'm seeing.
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Post by The Elder King on Oct 16, 2024 22:33:49 GMT
Pre-order sales numbers appear weak and the game has not broken through the Steam top 50. Go here for more.
At first I thought it was clickbait... However, numbers are given and they do look weak. Still, they may be better around the world.
It seems to be in the top 50 in both of those charts. From what I gathered on other sites, it's doing well on PSN. steamdb.info/stats/globaltopsellers/store.steampowered.com/search/?filter=topsellers&ignore_preferences=1It was doing worse on steam before, and it seemingly matches EA's expectations in regards of preorders, but in the end, the actual quality of the game and the reviews will determine if it's successful or not.
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emissaryoflies
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Post by emissaryoflies on Oct 17, 2024 5:48:49 GMT
Is it normal for a AAA studio defining ip to be at 39 or 41 on steam top sellers two weeks away from launch?
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helios969
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Post by helios969 on Oct 17, 2024 6:09:12 GMT
matches EA's expectations in regards of preorders Intentionally ambiguous? I mean they could have low expectations which are being met...not that the corporate drones are gonna tell you anything other than everything is roses.
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Post by helios969 on Oct 17, 2024 6:19:00 GMT
Is it normal for a AAA studio defining ip to be at 39 or 41 on steam top sellers two weeks away from launch? I wonder at that too...it doesn't seem that great to me but then I don't really follow this stuff usually. It still can't beat out BG3...which has been out more than a year.
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Post by The Elder King on Oct 17, 2024 6:37:08 GMT
Is it normal for a AAA studio defining ip to be at 39 or 41 on steam top sellers two weeks away from launch? I wouldn't say it's a good number, which is why I found it weird that the video had to say it didn't crack the top 50. It is doing much better on PSN, on the other hand. matches EA's expectations in regards of preorders Intentionally ambiguous? I mean they could have low expectations which are being met...not that the corporate drones are gonna tell you anything other than everything is roses. I don't disagree with you, but given that the mention was made during an investors' call, I think what they said is at least accurate. It could very well be that their expectations for Veilguard's sales is low, which would be a good news for Bioware because they'll have a easier time in matching those expectations. I do think it's likely they factored in the 10 years since Inquisition and Bioware's reputation after MEA and Anthem. It seems strange to me that EA would actually be this reasonable in regards of DA's sales expectations, but it seems that's the case.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 17, 2024 7:20:38 GMT
It certainly appears that we may just be getting that with the laser focused companion aspect of the marketing we've seen thus far. Not to mention the name and direction change from Dreadwolf to being about the Veilguard. And then there's the very light hearted dialogue we've seen in quite perilous situations. How Bellara doesn't seem to shut up for a single solitary second of anyone's playthrough. And the fact that Rook meets up with Varric and Harding in a fucking bar fight. Kind of like a certain scene in a dlc where the protagonist gets into a shoot out with generic mooks in conspicuous call of duty gear. And the whole situation is played for laughs. Cheesy early 2000's action movie laughs. Holy shit. It'll be a miracle, if this game is not as you described. Come on. I want the Black City. I want Mythal to scream bloody vengeance while she goes on a bloody rampage. (and bitchslap Solas into oblivion) Something cool with the dwarves in the Deep Roads.Cool Qunari like in DA2 (I know this won't happen...) I want to play a Grey Warden so I can tell folks to STFU I'm blighted we all got problems. I really hope they haven't forgotten the dwarves or the focus is entirely on Harding and her new powers. I remember back in DAO how the dwarves' attitude was, so now it's back on the surface you're worried about the Blight. We have to deal with it 24/7. Then there is Kal-Sharok that survived being isolated for the best part of 1000 years. Yet it is maintained that no one knew? That is one hell of a mystery. Still, I do take encouragement that it is actually shown on the map. With any luck there will be a relevant reason why Kal-Sharok did not approve of Cad'Halash helping the elves of Arlathan. May be it will feature heavily in Act 2. Sadly, I think the DA2 Qunari were a wonderful innovation that will now never be repeated. I might not agree with their philosophy but I still found them fascinating. I know several people who regard them as one of the best bits of the DA franchise because they were unique. Not any more though. Personally I think it was a mistake when they made them a playable race in DAI but they were Vashoth so that did account for the difference in mindset. However, it did also result in them being humanized in appearance, which was a retrograde step in my opinion. I'm not sure if we are going to see any genuine Qunari at all in DAV. The Antaam in Antiva have gone rogue and I'm still not sure about Taash's origins. C'est la vie, I suppose.
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fistoffiori
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Post by fistoffiori on Oct 17, 2024 8:57:07 GMT
Week 1 of Inquisition, the PS4 version was pushing a million, selling like 800k/900k, compared to like 250k on PC. I think even Xbox One had more than PC, but 360/PS3 versions sold much lower than anything else. It eventually sold like 12 million by last year but don't know the split of sales between format. It will have sold some more this year too with newcomers wanting to play before Veilguard is out.
Can't remember DAO/DA2 for comparison.
But not surprised it's doing well on PS5. Can't tell how it's doing on Xbox as that seems to list in release order.
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Post by 10k on Oct 17, 2024 11:29:35 GMT
Here's a video from nuhre. Where she is talking to someone who have played the game (allegedly). The things this guy is saying is really confirming this game is just going to feel like Andromeda all over again.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 17, 2024 12:23:10 GMT
I tried watching this video but it was such a confused slow interview, I couldn't get through it, sorry. Even for a non native speaker this is not a well articulated inside scoop. If this guy is for real at all. Can't really imagine they gated romances like that until a year ago. That part sounded like bullshit.
The part about people calling themselves "non binary" in a fantasy setting? If true that's just ridiculous and I won't be surprised if it's indeed the case. At least make up an in universe word for it, jesus... Fuck world building, apparently.
I'm taking this video with a bucket of salt. I do expect MEA all over again and perhaps worse. But this video is weird as hell.
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Post by Reznore on Oct 17, 2024 12:26:35 GMT
I think he's a fake. Far as I know, the councel people who had access to alpha, only played Act 1. I'm not sure they let random folks play test the later acts.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 17, 2024 12:31:18 GMT
Here's a video from nuhre. Where she is talking to someone who have played the game (allegedly). The things this guy is saying is really confirming this game is just going to feel like Andromeda all over again. I'm not surprised it might be like MEA because of the first gameplay video showing the companions doing little to no damage like in the MEA. I do not agree with what was said about Bioware in the last few minutes of the video.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 17, 2024 12:43:56 GMT
I think he's a fake. Far as I know, the councel people who had access to alpha, only played Act 1. I'm not sure they let random folks play test the later acts. Me too. I play videogames for a living and at least at my company on big projects people work on different areas, not enough time for everyone to play the whole game. Unless DAV is actually super short. IF he played the whole game there's no way he'd forget what the characters are called and you'd think even if he forgot in the meantime he'd look it up again so he could have a somewhat coherent interview. This guy was painful to listen to.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by emissaryoflies on Oct 17, 2024 12:51:35 GMT
Watching Nuhre's video right now. I'm not a religious person, but I hope to whatever higher power that might be out there that this isn't true. And at the same time I'm completely and utterly unsurprised. People have been calling this stuff out for months and the marketing all but confirms a lot of the rumors. We went from the Dreadwolf to the Veilguard. Odd choice, but ok, they're focusing on the companions. Their specialty. It's going to be amazing.
The first trailer came out and people mostly handwaved it away as a miscalculation. A mistake. It looked like a hero shooter or Fortnite DLC, but it was ok because the devs were allegedly angry about it. Fine. More and more information is revealed. Character intros come out and gameplay footage is shown. In some aspects, almost indistinguishable in appearance to a mobile action game. This is odd. Action combat with a dwarf warrior rolling about the battlefield like a gymnast, but that's ok because the story is going to be amazing. Oh look at that! A radial menu just like Mass Effect! Strange, I thought this was a Dragon Age game...And again, it's ok as long as it's serviceable, right?
We meet Lucanis who has purple wings sprouting out of his back yet he runs at his enemies to kill them in his character intro, ok. Whatever companion happens to be present recites the exact same sardonic line "Rook, he's possessed by a demon". We come across Neve who proceeds to deliver flat, monotone and disinterested dialogue about the world ending calamity in front of her, ok, maybe that's just how she is. We come across PeebeeBellara who is intro'd as a somewhat quirky mad scientist type who never ever shuts up during the gameplay. Yippee. We see the rest of the companions and not a single one shown thus far seems to have any bite to them. There's no Morrigan to tell you to abandon the mages in the tower. No Fenris to brutally criticize Merrill and Anders, and even end up siding against you in the end depending on your choices. No Isabela to disapprove heroic goody goody actions that Hawke gets up to. And we now know that the companions have to be recruited so it likely means that you won't have a Cole or Blackwall stand up to you and tell you what you can do with yourself and abandon ship. It is also doubtful that you'll have a Sera kill someone while you're negotiating with them. We're all one big happy family it seems.
Surprisingly, Rook seems to be competently voice acted, but again has no teeth. And from a playthrough section I watched, if your Rook is an elf, he will act ignorant about his own gods. -Insert Xzibit meme here-. It's Temple of Mythal all over again. And if you want to roleplay as someone who isn't out to save the world or is only in it for himself? Tough. Through no choice of your own, you will yell out "we have to save her!" about some random woman while enroute to stop Solas. And that's in the opening of Act 1. Lord knows what awaits us further in.
And then we have access. Beautiful, beautiful, access! Flying people out, paying for hotel rooms, food, highly curated playthroughs, very careful language surrounding the critique of the game. So nice, so transparent, and not at all manipulated media. Remember when Baldur's Gate 3 was coming out and only a very few select people had access to it and they had to walk on eggshells when they discussed it? Me neither.
Yeah. I'm not surprised.
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Post by Reznore on Oct 17, 2024 12:57:24 GMT
I think he's a fake. Far as I know, the councel people who had access to alpha, only played Act 1. I'm not sure they let random folks play test the later acts. Me too. I play videogames for a living and at least at my company on big projects people work on different areas, not enough time for everyone to play the whole game. Unless DAV is actually super short. IF he played the whole game there's no way he'd forget what the characters are called and you'd think even if he forgot in the meantime he'd look it up again so he could have a somewhat coherent interview. This guy was painful to listen to. Don't know, he sounds like a weirdo. I'm not into the whole non binary thing. I find the "gender" craze backward, and i'm baffled biological sex is getting taboo and people think it's great. But I'm a dumbass and that's a problem for some new generation I aren't part of. But the guy basically said "ugly women, non binary, and a black guy is in charge, game ruined you know." Why talk on a podcast, do a youtube video with DATV WOKE with some ugly thumbnails like the thousand others.
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