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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 19, 2024 9:51:25 GMT
I know BSN doesn't want political talk but I'll put an opinion on the DEI subject here that is interesting. I found this in a toxic steam discussion yesterday. It was one of the few reasonable objections based on questioning who this serves. And I liked raising the question if this really is about those minorities or just as usual about money: "I am pissed at the current "modern culture". The stock market. The banks. The studios and the publishers and the corporations. Many others don't share the extended frustration that I have, even if mine and their goals are the same. And that frustrates me too.
When I pick a 1000 dollars of my money and want to invest it. I look up an investment service and see what their priorities and values are. -Their values are usually scaled at a tender 50-60% in favor of a concept called the "ESG Index". I place my money on an equity fund. And that fund has a mandate that 50-60% of the money is only placed as an investment on companies with a highly positive ESG score
This means. The investment service actively looks at the ESG score a company has. They demand that the company prioritizes environmental, social or governing principles that mitigate the risk of the company getting cancelled. Literally.
The company usually gets to choose. They maintain an environmental consciences in their activity. This ensures that Europe for instance, has less of a chance to affect their business negatively out of the blue by enforcing environmentally friendly restraints on the business that will negatively impact revenue.
Another way to improve their ESG index, and to appeal to potential new government mandates that have been rising up that demand inclusivity in board rooms, is just that. Promote or hire women or other conditional characters to ensure your company checks the necessary boxes.
If the company further wants to improve their ESG Index score, they may choose to play it safer by ensuring they don't get negatively affected by popular sentiment on social media. Literally trying to not get cancelled by the Twitter mob by making "socially conscious decisions" like hiring based on race and gender or preferences in bed-company. Or making products and services with explicitly inclusive themes and virtue signals.
As an investor I don't get to find any providers anymore that don't look at the ESG index. Every public stock market company that I look at has an ESG statement in their shareholders statements telling what they are doing to "Champion things that bring them investment money".
- Now we are talking about the latter principle. The Social one, when talking about Dragon Age, or any other recent game, or entertainment like shows and movies for that matter.
One of my issues is that these games are made like this, because they are appealing to the ESG index. Not because they are revolutionizing modern culture. But because putting any of these "things that white men don't like" are mainly there to attract investments. The LGBTQ attributes and characters, masculine women, or spesific colored people, are used to make money. I think that's disgusting. And it disgusts me that the "champions of diversity" running around the forums calling out everything that doesn't praise these actions don't know or care that they are championing a level of capitalism that is literally taking advantage of minorities, or women.
The fact that I shouldn't have a game like Stellar Blade, as the general progressive consensus says, helps too. Do what you want and make inclusive games. Or ones that "appeal to the female fantasy". But does it truly have to permeate to the extend that we can't have products that appeal to me and my whims anymore without there being controversy or calling out all gamers. Far be it from anyone to say we can't or shouldn't have all types of games for all types of people. But that's not the case. We are actively seeing judgement on Wukong Black Myth for there not being women in the first hours of the game on an otherwise great game. What's the point? Why be so extreme about it?
Well. Extremism can only be fought back with extreme. I call everything and everyone, that adhere's remotely to these standards, woke. It is the only way I can try to ensure that my hobbies, interests or services that want my money, know that I don't agree on injecting this rhetoric into every company's business strategy. The sooner the anti-woke crowd grows large enough and the businesses actually start getting cancelled for being "progressive" instead, the sooner these ESG-based investments stop being sustainable and the sooner we can start seeing REAL representation instead of this high and mighty makebelief that exists only because Investment companies deem it necessary." Yesterday I also happened to take an online course at work about DEI and I was ready to get annoyed but to my surprise the first thing said was that just having a diverse looking team based on skin color and gender does not equal true diversity if they all come from the same economic background, the same schools resulting in very similar world views and approaches to problem solving. As well as how groups of like minded people no matter their inherent attributes like skin color end up in a bubble. And that's why diversity on paper does not equal better performance. YES! I was so happy this was pointed out! The course did stress how diverse teams and companies performed better. And I don't even doubt that. And I understand why the DEI approach gets enforced trying to maximize profits. But as usual, a concept is being put into practice the wrong way. So what we are seeing is DEI turning into an echo chamber of a very specific ideology fostered by these diversity hires that tries to shut down all criticism for their actual talent and leads to people in jobs they are not the most qualified for because it's ticking boxes rather than REALLY building teams with diverse SKILLS. So you end up with shit products by teams assembled by committee. And the empowerment of minorities is just a business model. As the quoted comment from Steam points out. It's not really about these groups. It's about getting funded. It's hollow. It's taking statistics and getting the message wrong imo. Feel free to delete this post as violating BSN. It's an interesting discussion though imo. The anti gay/women in games incel crowd is making it difficult to discuss this "woke" movement without getting dismissed. You can be pro diversity and anti woke ticking of boxes at the same time because imo it's not the same thing. From what I gather plenty of people in these minority groups are annoyed by how they are getting used in a culture war where nobody actually really cares about them. Where it's just about being the morally superior being feeling good about yourself for championing a cause these minority groups never asked for. It's a modern day religion where everyone else is a bigot. Companies wouldn't care if somehow this hadn't morphed into ruining your business funding if you don't comply. It's truly unfortunate. It's a good thing turned into something awful.
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"Begone, spirit! I will not play your games."
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Post by Ice-Quinn on Oct 19, 2024 10:45:57 GMT
Philippa is hot but the hottest babe in Witcher is Iorveth. Lambert and Eskel did it for me.
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Post by Reznore on Oct 19, 2024 10:48:44 GMT
Philippa is hot but the hottest babe in Witcher is Iorveth. Lambert and Eskel did it for me. Strangely enough Eskel and his busted face had quite a lot of charm. Lambert was hilarious.
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Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by helios969 on Oct 19, 2024 10:49:03 GMT
You can be pro diversity and anti woke ticking of boxes at the same time because imo it's not the same thing. Yes, exactly that! I've spent the last 25 years working in science with people from all over the world and from every walk of life, every religious background, every orientation. What it's taught me, is people are people...they're made of assholes to angels. The DEI checklist is bad (in entertainment mostly from what I've seen) because so little thought is put into beyond this character is bi, this one is brown...it's all superficial with no character depth. This is what has me worried about DAV...because character depth has been a significant part of Bioware's DNA...without that it loses it's appeal to me. I really hope my impression is wrong.
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Post by fistoffiori on Oct 19, 2024 11:51:52 GMT
This is what has me worried about DAV...because character depth has been a significant part of Bioware's DNA...without that it loses it's appeal to me. I really hope my impression is wrong I too hope, and genuinely have faith, that your impression is indeed wrong. The companions are all from different factions and parts of the world, and that'll be for a reason, hope the writing backs it up. We've only seen the minor not very spoilery decisions and that companions will disagree with each other there but know that there's far bigger stuff coming: There's the big decision in act 1 which directly affects 2 of our companions in particular.
And I didn't look at the list of achievements but saw one - that there's a an achievement/trophy for having all companions survive - or stay with you - to the end.
The devs also said publicly companions can leave (and I guess permanently die) which piqued my interest - there'll be conflict and these decisions will hopefully have weight.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 19, 2024 12:32:18 GMT
You know, I think it is a shame the elven gods are blighted. I wanted to see what they REALLY look like, rather than a twisted version of themselves.
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fistoffiori
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: F10R1
PSN: FistOfFiori
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Post by fistoffiori on Oct 19, 2024 12:43:51 GMT
You know, I think it is a shame the elven gods are blighted. I wanted to see what they REALLY look like, rather than a twisted version of themselves. Well, (speculation but genuinely could be spoilery given previews...) We might see them properly. And others that aren't around any more by the time of Veilguard's present day. We see a non-blighted Ghilan'nain in one of the sections where we play through Solas' flashbacks, albeit she has her mask/helmet thing on on when we see her.
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Post by q5tyhj on Oct 19, 2024 13:16:11 GMT
You can be pro diversity and anti woke ticking of boxes at the same time because imo it's not the same thing. Sure, in some instances no doubt. But I expect that's more exception than rule. A good chunk of the anti-woke crybabies do seem to be exactly as they present: just white male incel wieners crying about anyone who isn't also a white male, or a babe, or anything that conflicts with their myopic social and political views. And honestly as far as representation and diversity goes, expecting companies to do the right thing for the right reasons is asking too much imo. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still better than doing the wrong thing, imo: representation, diversity, etc are all unequivocally better than the alternative, even when done for cynical profit-seeking reasons.
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Post by Guardian on Oct 19, 2024 15:44:24 GMT
Out of what females that are available in Veilguard, Harding is my first (and only) choice. As it stands now that's where I'm at...I'd give her a 7.5. I said 7 tops for Neve but for me she's more 6.5...I downgrade her for that ridiculous hat. Bellara I'd rank a 4.5...which is sad since I have a preference for Asian women...plus she seems like she's gonna be PeeBee 2.0. Same really. That hat she wears is silly and yeah....Bellara I had hopes for, but the more I hear and see, I also agree it's PeeBee 2.0 As for Yennefer, I'd sooner go after Philippa before Yen....talk about a REAL Ice Princess I'm guessing you didn't read the books...Philippa is quite a piece of work. No, more like I hate Yennifer just as much as Philippa. To me, they're both the same.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 19, 2024 15:55:45 GMT
You can be pro diversity and anti woke ticking of boxes at the same time because imo it's not the same thing. Yes, exactly that! I've spent the last 25 years working in science with people from all over the world and from every walk of life, every religious background, every orientation. What it's taught me, is people are people...they're made of assholes to angels. The DEI checklist is bad (in entertainment mostly from what I've seen) because so little thought is put into beyond this character is bi, this one is brown...it's all superficial with no character depth. This is what has me worried about DAV...because character depth has been a significant part of Bioware's DNA...without that it loses it's appeal to me. I really hope my impression is wrong. A good example of this would be Krem, whose character begins and ends with being trans. Sera, on the other hand, is defined and driven by experiences and wishes that aren't necessarily related to her sexuality. She is a whole person.
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Post by emissaryoflies on Oct 19, 2024 16:29:06 GMT
I'm guessing you didn't read the books...Philippa is quite a piece of work. No, more like I hate Yennifer just as much as Philippa. To me, they're both the same. I feel the same way just interacting with her in Witcher 3. I'm curious. I have not read the books. Why do you equate Yennifer with Philippa?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Oct 19, 2024 16:48:52 GMT
You can be pro diversity and anti woke ticking of boxes at the same time because imo it's not the same thing. Sure, in some instances no doubt. But I expect that's more exception than rule. A good chunk of the anti-woke crybabies do seem to be exactly as they present: just white male incel wieners crying about anyone who isn't also a white male, or a babe, or anything that conflicts with their myopic social and political views. And honestly as far as representation and diversity goes, expecting companies to do the right thing for the right reasons is asking too much imo. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still better than doing the wrong thing, imo: representation, diversity, etc are all unequivocally better than the alternative, even when done for cynical profit-seeking reasons.
I suspect it is the rule, not the exception. I think people are more reactionary now as they have been kicked 40 times and are seeing another kick coming before they give it a honest look. I suspect you just dislike the people and like to see them in the worst possible light.
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Post by q5tyhj on Oct 19, 2024 17:36:55 GMT
Sure, in some instances no doubt. But I expect that's more exception than rule. A good chunk of the anti-woke crybabies do seem to be exactly as they present: just white male incel wieners crying about anyone who isn't also a white male, or a babe, or anything that conflicts with their myopic social and political views. And honestly as far as representation and diversity goes, expecting companies to do the right thing for the right reasons is asking too much imo. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still better than doing the wrong thing, imo: representation, diversity, etc are all unequivocally better than the alternative, even when done for cynical profit-seeking reasons.
I suspect it is the rule, not the exception. I think people are more reactionary now as they have been kicked 40 times and are seeing another kick coming before they give it a honest look. I suspect you just dislike the people and like to see them in the worst possible light.
Nah, just a pure estimation of the numbers from what I've read here and on YT, reddit, etc.. Sorry. I definitely wish it weren't the case. But I'm ngl, it was fairly amusing how the tone coming from the culture war crowd changed from strident to petulant after the dam broke and all the gameplay content was revealed and it became clear the game was probably going to be quite good, at least for anyone who isn't e.g. triggered by pronouns.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 19, 2024 17:57:01 GMT
You can be pro diversity and anti woke ticking of boxes at the same time because imo it's not the same thing. Sure, in some instances no doubt. But I expect that's more exception than rule. A good chunk of the anti-woke crybabies do seem to be exactly as they present: just white male incel wieners crying about anyone who isn't also a white male, or a babe, or anything that conflicts with their myopic social and political views. And honestly as far as representation and diversity goes, expecting companies to do the right thing for the right reasons is asking too much imo. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still better than doing the wrong thing, imo: representation, diversity, etc are all unequivocally better than the alternative, even when done for cynical profit-seeking reasons. But they aren't necessarily doing the right thing even for the wrong reasons, that's my problem. If you don't hire the most skilled person for the job because you have a stupid quota to fill, then you're not even doing what serves the company and their products best. And therefore not me the customer. So that's bad all around. I wouldn't want to be a diversity or pity hire as a woman. I would want to be hired because I'm the best for the job. If my skills suck then I need to work on them. Not hiring the white guy even though he's the most skilled because of this weird obsession with crude brain dead superficial diversity that's just discrimination all over again. I'm not saying it's all bad. A lot of games have accessibility features now and that's awesome. Companies hire or consult people with disabilities so that their products can be used by more people. Everybody wins! It's a good thing that racial and sexual stereotyping is being addressed. Our western society is overall a much better place than 50 years ago. Way more accepting. But the quality of anything goes down if you try to make up for past discrimination with handing out free meals (scholarships, job offers) based on skin color or sexuality. That is actually pretty damn insulting and patronizing. ALL anybody has to do is hire the most competent person for the job regardless of what they look like or believe in. It's that simple. Now the creative industry is a bit of a complex case because artistic vision is highly subjective. Different people want very different things things from their entertainment. Every piece of creative writing in colored by a person's world view and background. It's unavoidable. This is why you probably need a diverse team of diverse thoughts on things and find common ground that everyone is happy with. If you live in an echo chamber of bias or don't listen to your customers wishes, then a game or TV show flops. I am well aware that there is a LOT of scary sexism everywhere still. The stuff I read sometimes that some guys say about women online is terrifying. Gives me real anxiety. But I do believe that by now at least in the west these men are a very vocal minority. And at the end of the day people just want quality escapism. I do not believe that if a "woke" game flops it's only because the majority of gamers are white incels and the game is actually really good and these people just live in the past. See BG3. Suuuper gay progressive game and people love it. I'm tired of incompetent or out of touch game devs blaming players for disliking their games. Calling unhappy customers incel bigots is a deflective shield for criticism imo. So I get what you're saying. People can be very resistant to necessary change. But I disagree on the results being all good. They're not.
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Post by witchcocktor on Oct 19, 2024 18:14:54 GMT
Yeah no, as someone who does NOT have a job currently, I'm taking a job that is offered to me even if it's given to me based on me filling their diversity quota.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 19, 2024 18:56:26 GMT
Yeah no, as someone who does NOT have a job currently, I'm taking a job that is offered to me even if it's given to me based on me filling their diversity quota. Haha, fair enough! We all do what's in our best interest. And good luck with the job hunt!
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Gui meɖi naneke o, gake ŋudͻwͻnu le eŋu
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 19, 2024 20:23:36 GMT
Yes, exactly that! I've spent the last 25 years working in science with people from all over the world and from every walk of life, every religious background, every orientation. What it's taught me, is people are people...they're made of assholes to angels. The DEI checklist is bad (in entertainment mostly from what I've seen) because so little thought is put into beyond this character is bi, this one is brown...it's all superficial with no character depth. This is what has me worried about DAV...because character depth has been a significant part of Bioware's DNA...without that it loses it's appeal to me. I really hope my impression is wrong. A good example of this would be Krem. Her character begins and ends with being trans, which is something that can only be excused by the fact that she is a minor character. Sera, on the other hand, is defined and driven by experiences and wishes that aren't necessarily related to her sexuality. She is a whole person. I sorta disagree here because Krem actually has a history that can be delved into beyond the initial conversation with Bull, and with respect to his father's social status and even adventures with his fellow Chargers as examples, isn't solely limited to his transness or essentially a tragic stereotype. That's definitely not the same as the caricature in DA 2 or the terribly-written Hainley Abrams in Andromeda.
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Post by q5tyhj on Oct 19, 2024 20:31:41 GMT
But they aren't necessarily doing the right thing even for the wrong reasons, that's my problem. If you don't hire the most skilled person for the job because you have a stupid quota to fill, then you're not even doing what serves the company and their products best. And therefore not me the customer. So that's bad all around. This isn't how it works in practice, though. Generally you have many, or at least several, applicants that are perfectly qualified and what tips the balance in any one particular ones favor comes to down to preferences. What has traditionally happened, is you have people other than straight cis white males who ARE as skilled as anyone, and get passed over for no reason save prejudice, whether conscious, unconscious, or systemic. Emphasizing that those people actually get the opportunities that their skills merit does not harm the company or the customer quite the opposite: we're trying to tap into a base of talent that has long gone underutilized, instead of giving (often unconscious) preference to a particular segment of the population. Its why ethnic diversity of a company is so strongly correlated to financial outperformance, in so many metrics. So the problem with the whole "DEI bad" shtick isn't just that its morally questionable, its just wrong on the facts. Underqualified people aren't getting jobs that their more skilled white male peers should have been getting, the qualified/overqualified people are finally getting the jobs that underqualified white dudes used to get just because we're white dudes. And its leading to better products, more successful companies, and more satisfied consumers. I fail to see the downside there, it seems to me a textbook win-win situation. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather companies promoted diversity and inclusion because its the right thing to do, but that's never going to happen. So its fortunate that doing so also leads to better (financial/economic) outcomes because that means it will happen regardless.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 19, 2024 21:52:17 GMT
But they aren't necessarily doing the right thing even for the wrong reasons, that's my problem. If you don't hire the most skilled person for the job because you have a stupid quota to fill, then you're not even doing what serves the company and their products best. And therefore not me the customer. So that's bad all around. This isn't how it works in practice, though. Generally you have many, or at least several, applicants that are perfectly qualified and what tips the balance in any one particular ones favor comes to down to preferences. What has traditionally happened, is you have people other than straight cis white males who ARE as skilled as anyone, and get passed over for no reason save prejudice, whether conscious, unconscious, or systemic. That is correct and it was also wrong and resulting in a less than ideal outcome for the team and the products. Absolutely not denying that this was a thing and probably still is a thing. Just pointing out fighting discrimination with another potential discrimination sucks. If that's what's happening right now. How much of an issue that is I cannot say. Something to be mindful of though. Obviously if two people are equally qualified y go ahead and hire the person who might be most suitable for the team dynamic. And we DO see an overlap of excessive checkbox diversity in Hollywood/ the gaming industry and very questionable storytelling. The white guy being the evil one is a thing for example. Just had that happen in SW Outlaws again, a game I really enjoyed playing. But yeah there's that excessive emphasis on girl power while the white guys are assholes or straight up evil again. It's lame at best and insidious at worst. What am I supposed to do with this? Should this make me feel good as a woman? I can't tell if the devs just don't understand what they're doing and ignorant of their bias or if it's deliberate. DEI is is a business world term that's why I don't use it to discuss the issues I have with the narrative of so many current works of fiction. DEI as a concept even if just about maximizing profit is not evil at all. It's a good thing in theory. I agree with you on that part.
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Post by LawBringerSR2 on Oct 19, 2024 23:06:52 GMT
I know BSN doesn't want political talk but I'll put an opinion on the DEI subject here that is interesting. I found this in a toxic steam discussion yesterday. It was one of the few reasonable objections based on questioning who this serves. And I liked raising the question if this really is about those minorities or just as usual about money: "I am pissed at the current "modern culture". The stock market. The banks. The studios and the publishers and the corporations. Many others don't share the extended frustration that I have, even if mine and their goals are the same. And that frustrates me too.
When I pick a 1000 dollars of my money and want to invest it. I look up an investment service and see what their priorities and values are. -Their values are usually scaled at a tender 50-60% in favor of a concept called the "ESG Index". I place my money on an equity fund. And that fund has a mandate that 50-60% of the money is only placed as an investment on companies with a highly positive ESG score
This means. The investment service actively looks at the ESG score a company has. They demand that the company prioritizes environmental, social or governing principles that mitigate the risk of the company getting cancelled. Literally.
The company usually gets to choose. They maintain an environmental consciences in their activity. This ensures that Europe for instance, has less of a chance to affect their business negatively out of the blue by enforcing environmentally friendly restraints on the business that will negatively impact revenue.
Another way to improve their ESG index, and to appeal to potential new government mandates that have been rising up that demand inclusivity in board rooms, is just that. Promote or hire women or other conditional characters to ensure your company checks the necessary boxes.
If the company further wants to improve their ESG Index score, they may choose to play it safer by ensuring they don't get negatively affected by popular sentiment on social media. Literally trying to not get cancelled by the Twitter mob by making "socially conscious decisions" like hiring based on race and gender or preferences in bed-company. Or making products and services with explicitly inclusive themes and virtue signals.
As an investor I don't get to find any providers anymore that don't look at the ESG index. Every public stock market company that I look at has an ESG statement in their shareholders statements telling what they are doing to "Champion things that bring them investment money".
- Now we are talking about the latter principle. The Social one, when talking about Dragon Age, or any other recent game, or entertainment like shows and movies for that matter.
One of my issues is that these games are made like this, because they are appealing to the ESG index. Not because they are revolutionizing modern culture. But because putting any of these "things that white men don't like" are mainly there to attract investments. The LGBTQ attributes and characters, masculine women, or spesific colored people, are used to make money. I think that's disgusting. And it disgusts me that the "champions of diversity" running around the forums calling out everything that doesn't praise these actions don't know or care that they are championing a level of capitalism that is literally taking advantage of minorities, or women.
The fact that I shouldn't have a game like Stellar Blade, as the general progressive consensus says, helps too. Do what you want and make inclusive games. Or ones that "appeal to the female fantasy". But does it truly have to permeate to the extend that we can't have products that appeal to me and my whims anymore without there being controversy or calling out all gamers. Far be it from anyone to say we can't or shouldn't have all types of games for all types of people. But that's not the case. We are actively seeing judgement on Wukong Black Myth for there not being women in the first hours of the game on an otherwise great game. What's the point? Why be so extreme about it?
Well. Extremism can only be fought back with extreme. I call everything and everyone, that adhere's remotely to these standards, woke. It is the only way I can try to ensure that my hobbies, interests or services that want my money, know that I don't agree on injecting this rhetoric into every company's business strategy. The sooner the anti-woke crowd grows large enough and the businesses actually start getting cancelled for being "progressive" instead, the sooner these ESG-based investments stop being sustainable and the sooner we can start seeing REAL representation instead of this high and mighty makebelief that exists only because Investment companies deem it necessary." Yesterday I also happened to take an online course at work about DEI and I was ready to get annoyed but to my surprise the first thing said was that just having a diverse looking team based on skin color and gender does not equal true diversity if they all come from the same economic background, the same schools resulting in very similar world views and approaches to problem solving. As well as how groups of like minded people no matter their inherent attributes like skin color end up in a bubble. And that's why diversity on paper does not equal better performance. YES! I was so happy this was pointed out! The course did stress how diverse teams and companies performed better. And I don't even doubt that. And I understand why the DEI approach gets enforced trying to maximize profits. But as usual, a concept is being put into practice the wrong way. So what we are seeing is DEI turning into an echo chamber of a very specific ideology fostered by these diversity hires that tries to shut down all criticism for their actual talent and leads to people in jobs they are not the most qualified for because it's ticking boxes rather than REALLY building teams with diverse SKILLS. So you end up with shit products by teams assembled by committee. And the empowerment of minorities is just a business model. As the quoted comment from Steam points out. It's not really about these groups. It's about getting funded. It's hollow. It's taking statistics and getting the message wrong imo. Feel free to delete this post as violating BSN. It's an interesting discussion though imo. The anti gay/women in games incel crowd is making it difficult to discuss this "woke" movement without getting dismissed. You can be pro diversity and anti woke ticking of boxes at the same time because imo it's not the same thing. From what I gather plenty of people in these minority groups are annoyed by how they are getting used in a culture war where nobody actually really cares about them. Where it's just about being the morally superior being feeling good about yourself for championing a cause these minority groups never asked for. It's a modern day religion where everyone else is a bigot. Companies wouldn't care if somehow this hadn't morphed into ruining your business funding if you don't comply. It's truly unfortunate. It's a good thing turned into something awful. Couldn't agree more with all this. My definition of the term "woke" is also that: a PR strategy meant to get coin from minorities and women and virtue signaling while not giving the slightest fuck about them. Because all corporations want at the end of the day is just money, money and money. Someone who truly cares about people's rights and social justice would never want money from them. Woke used to mean being aware of the problems of racism in the US. But the corpos hijacked the term and remade it in their image. I do believe the existence of MAGA/far-right/incels (they're all one and the same really) benefits them, as all they have to do to dismiss any actual constructive criticism is to throw it in the same box as that group.
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Post by SofaJockey on Oct 20, 2024 1:20:50 GMT
I know BSN doesn't want political talk KN is quite right. Time to wrap this one up and head right back into Veilguard territory please.
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Guardian
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Guardian on Oct 20, 2024 3:19:43 GMT
No, more like I hate Yennifer just as much as Philippa. To me, they're both the same. I feel the same way just interacting with her in Witcher 3. I'm curious. I have not read the books. Why do you equate Yennifer with Philippa? To me, they're both selfish, manipulative people that seek power and self-gain, and have no interest in anyone outside of themselves. Not even Ciri, until push came to shove with Yennifer. Otherwise, if she could have, Yenn at some point probably would have wanted her like Philippa - as a pawn to further her own power agenda (and the Lodge, which in turn, would still further her own goals).
That's just me, I know many love Yenn, but I see her no differently than Philippa. Maybe a slightly toned down version.
So, getting back on track with Veilguard, at some point, I will try it, but not until it's at a deep discount, just to finally end the series. Which is funny, because I really hate playing jerks and "evil" type characters, so taking things like Blood Magic and making it more...positive seems like it'd be a win for me. However, I know many that want to be "evil", just to be different. Or if there's no such thing as racial animosity, like how the Elves face, or the Caste Dwarves treat the Casteless. Or the differences between the Beresad and the Tal-Vashoth. I do agree that I think the biggest mistake was making Qunari an option.
The fact that Origins was bleak, yet hopeful is what drew me to it. Sure, a lot of games during the time Origins came out were "bleak" and "grimdark", but Origins was done right. There was a spark of hope there, which if you did it right (or wanted to!) you could all overcome your animosity towards one another to at least come together for a common goal - beat the darkspawn and the Archdemon.
DA 2 has the Rivalry system, and even though I never really wanted to push in that direction, I think it worked in a similar vein? Again, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, because again - I never pushed anyone into a rivalry. Just feel like I need to bold that part, because people seem to ignore parts of what's said sometime in a response. I'd rather have a bleak, yet hopeful game as opposed to everyone "joining hands, singing kumbaya in harmony", ignoring any sort of tensions they may have due to their race or beliefs. Morrigan and Alistair are the best example of this; as is Fenris and Anders or Merrill. And while I may agree with Fenris regarding things like Blood Magic, and there's times I want to just grab hold of Merrill and shake her to her senses, doesn't mean Fenris doesn't come with his own flaws.
I look at these companions and wonder what makes them interesting? Will they be flawed, complex characters? Or just....there...like Inquisition's? Varric and Cassandra were the two exceptions, and out of the Inquisition crew, Dorian was the shining star. The rest were....there. The characters that helped shape their backgrounds were far more interesting I felt. They're placing a lot of emphasis on how the companions and their stories are like that of ME 2. That's....quite a high bar they're setting up for themselves. I really hope they deliver on it.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 20, 2024 8:52:38 GMT
To me, they're both selfish, manipulative people that seek power and self-gain, and have no interest in anyone outside of themselves. Not even Ciri, until push came to shove with Yennifer. Otherwise, if she could have, Yenn at some point probably would have wanted her like Philippa - as a pawn to further her own power agenda (and the Lodge, which in turn, would still further her own goals).
That's just me, I know many love Yenn, but I see her no differently than Philippa. Maybe a slightly toned down version. As somebody who adores the books and whose favorite character is Yen, this is very painful to read, lol. But it just confirms that CDPR utterly failed her character. It has been my biggest gripe with W3. You can play Geralt totally out of character because it's an RPG but you CAN play him exactly like in the novels. I love W3, it's still one of the most perfect open world RPGs to me and such a delight for book readers because it's just great fanfiction. But Yen and her relationship to Ciri they blew. It shows that this game was made by men for men. (Interesting ironic tangent for the whole DEI debate we're not allowed to talk about anymore.) We got dominatrix Yen and Ciri as daddy's girl. Yen treats Geralt like dirt in the game and I would pick Triss if this was the only version of her I knew. Yen is like this only in the beginning of the novels. Ciri totally transformed her which also made her treat Geralt differently because she's no longer hot and cold pushing him away because she can't have a child with him. Now she has one and she turned into fierce Mama bear. Yen and Geralt are the best parents you can have. They'd both do anything for her. All Yen ever really wanted was a child, not power. Sure, she enjoys being beautiful and powerful. But she's nothing like Philippa in the novels. And in the novels Yen and Ciri are super close, closer than Ciri and Geralt. Ciri adores Geralt but Yen is her new mommy and they spend a lot of time together in the books before Ciri ends up alone, their relationship is so touching. None of that comes across in the game. It's downright criminal how dismissive Ciri is of Yen when she sees her again. It's all about daddy Geralt. Sorry for getting triggered. But it's really interesting to see how different some characters come across to people who haven't read the books. My high praise for the game will always be heavily skewed by my book knowledge that fills in so many gaps and elevates it in a way that makes me not really see how much is actually missing in the game to get the full picture. I always get reminded when I read impressions like yours. CDPR are amazing storytellers but like all writing there are flaws. And Yen's portrayal is one thing where they dropped the ball hard imo. Her voice actress is absolutely perfect, I like how she looks. But her behavior is all pre-Ciri ice queen. That girl melted her heart!
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helios969
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by helios969 on Oct 20, 2024 9:56:38 GMT
My high praise for the game will always be heavily skewed by my book knowledge that fills in so many gaps and elevates it in a way that makes me not really see how much is actually missing in the game to get the full picture. I always get reminded when I read impressions like yours. Great overall synopsis. I actually avoided the books for a long time after TW3 thinking it was gonna be something like the old Dragonlance books or one of the filler books for ME or DA (which I will never read). It was actually after S1 of the Netflix show that triggered me to start listening to the Audiobooks because I was somewhat confused by the ending...and I definitely do not regret doing so...probably have listened through a dozen times. Phillipa's interest in Ciri exists insomuch as it secures her powerbase and place at the top...and if it meant doing some of the sick shit Vilgefortz was about I think her capable of doing so. CDPR did a good job capturing the complexity of Yen and Geralt's relationship, but not so much with Yen and Ciri...Yen would have been doing everything to help her stay away from the Lodge and Emperor. It'd be nice to see some of this complexity in DAV but with almost none of the original visionaries for DA left I'm doubtful it'll be there.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 20, 2024 10:25:50 GMT
CDPR did a good job capturing the complexity of Yen and Geralt's relationship, but not so much with Yen and Ciri... The djinn quest was awesome and told the player a lot about Yen's insecurities. And it was such a nice book callback. Yen is a prickly woman who wears a mask to fit in with all those awful power hungry sorceresses. The books make a point over and over how she's not like the others and basically grows to resent all the politics and power games. Most of the sorceresses are awful human beings. But then again they are all a product of a horrible world that abuses women, especially the ugly ones they all were once. So this is all payback time for them. Yen and Geralt have this beautiful complicated relationship of two people who don't fit in, freaks. They are both very moral people. That's why Geralt loves her. He's an excellent judge of character and saw through her icy exterior quickly. She is a good person swimming in a shark tank. She's playing The Game. It's how she survived but it's not a life she really wants. What she wants is a family. It's a great love story, a realistic one where they hurt each other all the time because of insecurities. But most of all it's a story about family. Found family too. Also applies to Geralt's amazing friends who always have his back. So DAV, you have some big shoes to fill for me to be impressed with your Veilguard found family.
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