Polka Dot
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 9, 2020 20:10:05 GMT
I can see Rogues having a means to Parry/Dodge attacks at the cost of stamina. IIRC, the duelist spec in DA2 has a Parry sustain that helps you avoid or take reduced damage from many attacks.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 9, 2020 21:11:01 GMT
I liked barriers and guards for a couple of class.
Guards for your tank is great and barrier for a sword mage thingie is fun.
But I want my healer back.
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Cantina
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Post by Cantina on Sept 9, 2020 21:45:24 GMT
Ah yes, the hand holding combat bullshit.
No, I do not want either of these to return -- ever.
In Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 neither of these idiotic abilities existed.
Why?
Because combat was far more interesting and challenging. You needed to think and utilize your character and companions to win a fight. Now its, enter the fight, put barrier/guard on, smash this button and move on. Oh, how challenging! (rolls eyes).
Adding in barrier and shields to a game is the developers way of say, "We do not give a shit."
I played Bioshock Infinite not long ago, it had an idiotic shield over my character's health bar, unlike the previous two Bioshock games. Then let us not forget Halo. A shield in those games too. But it did make more sense to have then DA or Bioshock.
But, I digress.
In DAI, they striped abilities and attributes down to the nub; especially healing spells. Your character and companions get barrier and guard along with a limited amount of health potions to lug around, and you can no longer set up your companions combat tactics. Which results in DAI's combat being about as much fun as getting my teeth drilled with a rusty bent bit and no drugs.
BTW, while were on the subject of this shit not returning, let me add in this: Bioware, remove the idiotic book levitation mages use in combat. Its pointless and silly. This is not Blizzard. Why the hell would DA mages need to lug around their grimores during combat?!?! And please, please, remove all books on armor. It looks so damn stupid. Like that Qunari in Trespasser. It looked like she had the Yellow Pages strapped to her arm. Bleh!
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 9, 2020 22:33:20 GMT
It's basically shields over health and armour over health. Player has more or less control to generate either. I found it a good and viable way to incorporate it into action-rpg. Indeed, it is similar to shields and armour in ME, however - ME combatants could switch weapons in accordance to which layer they were working on. Also, ME has a pretty well-established general formula for which weapon type works best on which layer. Neither of those things were true for DAI. ETA: MET also has ammo types that can be changed on the fly that make it much easier to strip those layers. Again, DAI offered no such thing. I believe barrier and guard were more or less just additional health without damage reduction like in ME.
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Post by Frost on Sept 9, 2020 23:06:44 GMT
No to both. I hated having healing magic gutted for them.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 10, 2020 0:14:22 GMT
Huh? Unless the Inquisitor is soloing, dragons don’t get many chances to raise their guard. Even on Nightmare, a full party will absolutely demolish them. Not everyone who plays these games is a combat god, you know. People can think I'm a scrub; I don't care. While I do enjoy combat -- I wouldn't play a "narrative mode" if it were offered -- it's not the reason I play these games. Consequently, I don't run the best, most efficient builds and whatnot. My parties do not "demolish" dragons. (My typical dragon killing group is my SnS Inquisitor, Dorian, Cole, and Varric. I always run with Dorian and Cole; I swap Varric with Cassandra for mood or if combat dictates.)
[edit] That said, I can't add to the discussion re: guard on dragons. It's been so long since I fought one that I can't remember that aspect of it. I just objected to you speaking for the experience of all players. Happens all too frequently on these forums.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 10, 2020 0:29:03 GMT
Ah yes, the hand holding combat bullshit.
No, I do not want either of these to return -- ever.
In Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 neither of these idiotic abilities existed.
Why?
Because combat was far more interesting and challenging. You needed to think and utilize your character and companions to win a fight. Now its, enter the fight, put barrier/guard on, smash this button and move on. Oh, how challenging! (rolls eyes).
I have no idea what you're talking about. DAI may be a bit easier than DA2, but it's about on the same level as DA:O
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 10, 2020 1:20:45 GMT
Not everyone who plays these games is a combat god, you know. Oh, this. I could not even come close that demolishment as well, and I use the easiest difficulty rating that is not narrative. On the other hand, I'm not running optimised parties relying on rogue-based damage number crunching or something. In fact, I got the impression that I wound up better with at least being more on the durability side as opposed to maximising damage above all else, as most uglies seemed a bit too spongy for pure DPS even early game. |
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Polka Dot
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 10, 2020 1:21:42 GMT
Given that I think active blocking should be in there, what guard was supposed to ape, I think only barrier should return. If active blocking means what I think it means, they'd have to seriously curtail fx in order for that to work. It'd be nigh impossible to anticipate an opponent's attack to block it when the toons are barely visible cuz they're buried in fx.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 10, 2020 1:28:10 GMT
Given that I think active blocking should be in there, what guard was supposed to ape, I think only barrier should return. If active blocking means what I think it means, they'd have to seriously curtail fx in order for that to work. It'd be nigh impossible to anticipate an opponent's attack to block it when the toons are barely visible cuz they're buried in fx. ...*takes a minute to realize what they are talking about with FX* YES! Good point, excellent point actually not sure how much I thought about that angle in relation to needing to block but in thinking about it you are 100% correct. And I realized too thinking about it that neither TW 3 or Odyssey (the two games I am the most familiar in genre with 'active blocking') neither of them were overly flashy either. It bares thinking about moving forward because given the importance of magic in setting I am not sure how much they can tone down the fx without ruining the effect of MAGIC. I mean even DAO, while maybe not as bad as Inquisition still had spells like ice storm and the firm storm which made it realllly hard to see your character. But thanks for the food for thought. ... Actually before I go I did realize there is in part a solution...I am all in favor of Barrier returning and with barrier, guard, active blocking, and hopeflly better dodging mechanics the focus will be even more on damage mitigation...rather then just standing there in taking it...while I loved Inquisition's combat and the changes it made to your own character and the corrections of the lore...your character focused on damage mitigation, they should go more in that direction. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 10, 2020 1:33:39 GMT
If active blocking means what I think it means, they'd have to seriously curtail fx in order for that to work. I think they'd have to slow things down a lot more in general. I'm mostly familiar with active blocking from Skyrim. In that game, the enemies are pretty obvious about forecasting their swings. However, there is also very little fx flying around and you typically only have one follower. |
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Post by themikefest on Sept 10, 2020 1:42:06 GMT
bring both back. I like them. I enjoyed fighting a dragon that has the guard ability. Just when it has a sliver of health left, up goes the guard. That's alright. If my character has lasted that long, she/he can last that much longer to get the guard down to finish off the dragon.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 10, 2020 1:42:26 GMT
If active blocking means what I think it means, they'd have to seriously curtail fx in order for that to work. I think they'd have to slow things down a lot more in general. I'm mostly familiar with active blocking from Skyrim. In that game, the enemies are pretty obvious about forecasting their swings. However, there is also very little fx flying around and you typically only have one follower. Both Odyssey and Witcher they 'telegraph' their moves like by having their weapons flash and you have a minute to get out of the way...or block. |
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Post by smilesja on Sept 10, 2020 1:43:42 GMT
I hope that healing magic will return, I felt it was cheap that they removed it in DAI.
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Polka Dot
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 10, 2020 1:57:01 GMT
If active blocking means what I think it means, they'd have to seriously curtail fx in order for that to work. It'd be nigh impossible to anticipate an opponent's attack to block it when the toons are barely visible cuz they're buried in fx. ...*takes a minute to realize what they are talking about with FX* YES! Good point, excellent point actually not sure how much I thought about that angle in relation to needing to block but in thinking about it you are 100% correct. And I realized too thinking about it that neither TW 3 or Odyssey (the two games I am the most familiar in genre with 'active blocking') neither of them were overly flashy either. It bares thinking about moving forward because given the importance of magic in setting I am not sure how much they can tone down the fx without ruining the effect of MAGIC. I mean even DAO, while maybe not as bad as Inquisition still had spells like ice storm and the firm storm which made it realllly hard to see your character. But thanks for the food for thought. The fx in DA get pretty intense. I've been playing DA2 recently, and am having these situations where I have arcane shield running and can't see the enemy right next to my toon. Other times, fireballs start dropping all around my character and I can't see anything... ... What you're suggesting here is that DA become a lot more action-oriented game than it has been thus far. Proper use of blocking and dodge mechanics require not only a higher level of player skill, but would also necessitate a lot of other changes to combat design. I mean, if you're relying on blocking and dodge for damage mitigation, I'm not quite sure how you could have a tank surrounded by enemies, drawing all of the aggro from multiple enemies at the same time. I think the battles would need to involve smaller groups of enemies. While I've enjoyed ACOD - and Dragon's Dogma (prolly my favorite action RPG), I think such a move would leave a lot of DA fans behind. A lot of people play for the RPG, characters, story, not so much the combat. And DA has made the game work for them with the auto-targeting and all. I'd hate to see those folks lose what's been a major source of entertainment for them. If active blocking means what I think it means, they'd have to seriously curtail fx in order for that to work. I think they'd have to slow things down a lot more in general. I'm mostly familiar with active blocking from Skyrim. In that game, the enemies are pretty obvious about forecasting their swings. However, there is also very little fx flying around and you typically only have one follower. Yes. You raise another good point here in that other games that promote active blocking, dodge mechanics, and the like typically have you controlling only one character. I don't know how well those additional action components would work when you have an entire team you can control.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 10, 2020 1:57:13 GMT
The only way they could think of to put party members in actual danger of going down Why do they need to do that? |
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 10, 2020 1:59:22 GMT
The only way they could think of to put party members in actual danger of going down Why do they need to do that? If there's no danger, where's the accomplishment in winning?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 10, 2020 2:01:41 GMT
Why do they need to do that? If there's no danger, where's the accomplishment in winning? And if I'm not interested in accomplishment and I just want to move the fuck on with the plot already? DA combat has never been particularly interesting or fun. The last thing they should be doing is making it last longer. |
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 10, 2020 2:57:42 GMT
Huh? Unless the Inquisitor is soloing, dragons don’t get many chances to raise their guard. Even on Nightmare, a full party will absolutely demolish them. Not everyone who plays these games is a combat god, you know. I’m actually really bad at combat. Like, really bad. And that’s why I try to warn people away from tanky parties. Tanky/heal-heavy parties are harder to play. Especially against bosses with powerful attacks, you have to grind out so many minutes of the correct rotations, dodging or healing each big attack that comes. The increased defensive abilities do diddly-squat when the combat is going to drag on for a much longer time. Even in the previous games, with no Guard, bosses could chug health potions or buff themselves up in other ways if the party kills them slowly. Mechanically, the Arishok downing a health potion is no different than a high dragon raising its guard. Both actions mean that tanky/heal-heavy parties are going to face a disproportionately long, grueling fight, as they chew through way more HP than they would if they focused on damage. The Arishok fight doesn’t have to be yakety-sax playing over endless figure eights. It’s possible to kill him before the cooldown pops on his second potion, and it’s much easier than the figure-eight stuff because you don’t have to perfectly dodge 1000 incredibly lethal blows as he continuously adds more HP to his pool. Look, I realize promoting glass cannons sounds like a “git gud” thing, but I used to play healer/tank heavy builds and I would really struggle. Building for DPS makes Dragon Age combat more fun and just straight-up easier. Maybe I’m not framing it in the best way, but it really is worth trying.  |
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Post by Catilina on Sept 10, 2020 3:05:27 GMT
Barriers are exists. But pls, bring back the healing. This is canon, so: end that bullshit!
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 10, 2020 3:23:35 GMT
Arvaarad is complety correct, of course, that throwing up a guard or a barrier is mechanically identical to simply healing. Which is a large part of the reason why I don't like it.
A 'barrier' spell should do something much more interesting, like block and/or reflect projectiles.
In practice, all they do currently is make battles longer. Sure, you can easily mitigate or even completely nullify it by building your party around pure DPS, but combat should STILL be fun even if you don't do that.
There are tons of things BioWare could've done instead that would be WAY more fun than simply making battles take longer, and giving bosses cheap moves that almost wipe out the party in one hit.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 10, 2020 3:40:17 GMT
Arvaarad is complety correct, of course, that throwing up a guard or a barrier is mechanically identical to simply healing. Which is a large part of the reason why I don't like it. A 'barrier' spell should do something much more interesting, like block and/or reflect projectiles. Yeah, I do prefer that rogue thing that stacks, I think it’s called Elusive or something like that? Where rather than absorbing X amount of damage (like a health pool) it absorbs X number of hits. So having stacks of Elusive isn’t quite temp HP, it’s a different thing. And it allows for some fun shenanigans. You can poke enemies way outside the rogue’s level knowing that they’re unable to instakill them, no matter how big the hit is. IIRC, Elusive was introduced in the Trespasser skills, so it may be an indication of where they’re headed. I would for sure be interested to see more riffs on this concept that are distinct from temp HP. Barrier and Guard did technically have a few special interactions with damage/certain abilities that made them act slightly different vs. regular HP, but they could definitely make the distinction stronger. |
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Cantina
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Vive la révolution mages!
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Post by Cantina on Sept 10, 2020 4:01:22 GMT
Ah yes, the hand holding combat bullshit.
No, I do not want either of these to return -- ever.
In Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2 neither of these idiotic abilities existed.
Why?
Because combat was far more interesting and challenging. You needed to think and utilize your character and companions to win a fight. Now its, enter the fight, put barrier/guard on, smash this button and move on. Oh, how challenging! (rolls eyes).
I have no idea what you're talking about. DAI may be a bit easier than DA2, but it's about on the same level as DA:O Can I partake in whatever you are drinking and/or smoking? I want to smell colors too!
DAI combat is nothing like DAO or even DA2.....NOTHING!
DAO and DA2:
*Able to distribute attributes for you and your companions
*Once a companion joins your party she or he has immediate access to their specialization, this of course changes to unique etc. in DA2.
*Can choose more than one specialization and did not require a mini quest to do so.
*Set up your companions combat tactics to what you want. Thus, a mage can fight at range and a warrior can fight up front. No babysitting.
*Unlimited potions, depending on what you found and/or could afford.
*Potions are essential
*Talents are not cut down to where each character has the same bare-bones. Easier to create a unique mage/warrior/rogue and less likely the party using the same talents.
*Healing Spells
*Blood Magic
*Schools of Magic
*Less passive and move active abilities
*Extra powers could be placed and used on the combat wheel
*Highlight objects around you without that dumbass search radius circle
*Enemies were challenging. You did not need to turn on an option to access it
*Barrier and Guard did not exist (thank goodness)
*Combat kept you on your toes, who to heal, who kill first etc.
DAI:
*Unable to distribute attributes for you or your companions
*When a companion joins your party he or she does not have access to their specialization until later and it is picked for you. As an added bonus, Cassandra's specialization makes zero sense as does Varric's
*Can only choose one specialization and cannot respect out of it later. You also need to do a fetch quest in order to unlock said specialization
*Companions combat tactics can no longer be set up
*Limited number of potions. Can no longer be found and/or purchased, must be made (ugh)
*Potions are not essential
*You and your companions have the same talents -- depending on if they are a mage, warrior or rogue. Too easy to create the same mage/warrior/rogue and more likely the same powers being used. No diversity.
*Healing spells are gone -- mostly.
*Blood Magic removed and replace with Necromancy
*More passive and less active talents
*Combat wheel removed -- mostly. Any extra talents you or your companions have will go unused
*Highlight objects around you with that dumbass search radius circle
*Enemies are not challenging (including dragons). You need to turn on an option and/or turn up the difficulty
*Barrier and Guard exist
*Combat does not keep you on your toes. Run in, smash a button and move on to the next
This of course is just a small comparison. I or anyone here could add to it. But that would take more time than I currently have.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 10, 2020 4:12:38 GMT
...*takes a minute to realize what they are talking about with FX* YES! Good point, excellent point actually not sure how much I thought about that angle in relation to needing to block but in thinking about it you are 100% correct. And I realized too thinking about it that neither TW 3 or Odyssey (the two games I am the most familiar in genre with 'active blocking') neither of them were overly flashy either. It bares thinking about moving forward because given the importance of magic in setting I am not sure how much they can tone down the fx without ruining the effect of MAGIC. I mean even DAO, while maybe not as bad as Inquisition still had spells like ice storm and the firm storm which made it realllly hard to see your character. But thanks for the food for thought. The fx in DA get pretty intense. I've been playing DA2 recently, and am having these situations where I have arcane shield running and can't see the enemy right next to my toon. Other times, fireballs start dropping all around my character and I can't see anything... ... What you're suggesting here is that DA become a lot more action-oriented game than it has been thus far. Proper use of blocking and dodge mechanics require not only a higher level of player skill, but would also necessitate a lot of other changes to combat design. I mean, if you're relying on blocking and dodge for damage mitigation, I'm not quite sure how you could have a tank surrounded by enemies, drawing all of the aggro from multiple enemies at the same time. I think the battles would need to involve smaller groups of enemies. While I've enjoyed ACOD - and Dragon's Dogma (prolly my favorite action RPG), I think such a move would leave a lot of DA fans behind. A lot of people play for the RPG, characters, story, not so much the combat. And DA has made the game work for them with the auto-targeting and all. I'd hate to see those folks lose what's been a major source of entertainment for them. I think they'd have to slow things down a lot more in general. I'm mostly familiar with active blocking from Skyrim. In that game, the enemies are pretty obvious about forecasting their swings. However, there is also very little fx flying around and you typically only have one follower. Yes. You raise another good point here in that other games that promote active blocking, dodge mechanics, and the like typically have you controlling only one character. I don't know how well those additional action components would work when you have an entire team you can control. Maybe but I'm not sure how much of a shift it will really take. Though in realms of difficulty...yes I know people who found aspects of Odyssey's combat to be unplayable because of x reason...but they still adapted to it anyways. Other than that there is and should be pure difficulty which should mitigate at least some of these concerns. Set it on 'Casual/ Narrative' and the game should basically, maybe, play itself. That and I would be curious to see Inquisition's tactcal systems get a slight expansion to make party members even more effective in combat again. As for no one being able to set up your party to do things like taunt the enemy and be a tank. I don't really see it. I think most of the party interactions will be left more or less intact. You'll still have your tanks, your support/healers, your DPS archetypes, and your crowd control abilities. Making a game more 'action' does not take away from this, not neccessarily, in fact again I want the companions to be even MORE involved in combat then they were in Inquisition...in various ways. And if one really is concerned about party members not having a role in an action RPG one only has to look at BioWare's other franchise, Mass Effect, to see that is just not true. Despite ME being the more action oriented of the two your companions were just as valuable in combat...maybe even a little more so, and you still had companions built for tankyness, DPS, support, or Crowd Control with good team synergy thanks to things like bonuses. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 10, 2020 4:19:14 GMT
Arvaarad is complety correct, of course, that throwing up a guard or a barrier is mechanically identical to simply healing. Which is a large part of the reason why I don't like it. A 'barrier' spell should do something much more interesting, like block and/or reflect projectiles. Yeah, I do prefer that rogue thing that stacks, I think it’s called Elusive or something like that? Where rather than absorbing X amount of damage (like a health pool) it absorbs X number of hits. So having stacks of Elusive isn’t quite temp HP, it’s a different thing. And it allows for some fun shenanigans. You can poke enemies way outside the rogue’s level knowing that they’re unable to instakill them, no matter how big the hit is. IIRC, Elusive was introduced in the Trespasser skills, so it may be an indication of where they’re headed. I would for sure be interested to see more riffs on this concept that are distinct from temp HP. Barrier and Guard did technically have a few special interactions with damage/certain abilities that made them act slightly different vs. regular HP, but they could definitely make the distinction stronger. What I'm thinking of is adding entirely different features that make combat more exciting and fun, both visually and to play. Stuff I would potentially add if I were the boss of Dragon Age would be: - stun/stagger gauges that fill up with quick successive attacks or certain abilities, filling it up opens the enemy up for a spectacular 'takedown'/'finisher' move that might also confer a bonus on the party (morale boost or some such), or a debuff on remaining enemies (maybe become terrified) - making moves in general more visually interesting. Rogues should be a lot more agile/acrobatic in my opinion, with kicks, flips, cartwheels and such integrated into their normal attacks. Special abilities should focus on confusing/disorienting enemies (smoke bombs, oil slicks, etc). Mages as well, spells should affect terrain visually/mechanically. Ice should freeze the ground and make it slippery. Lightning at a body of water should electrocute and stun all enemies standing in it, a 'barrier' should be a giant energy dome that reflects projectiles, requiring the enemy to advance within melee range, fireballs should visibly fling enemies back on impact, etc etc. - status effects should ALSO be more visually interesting. Don't just put up a symbol that says the enemy is "slowed down", show them slipping and falling on their ass (opening them up for the rogue to jump in for an instakill?). If an enemy is 'frozen', then they should be visibly encased in ice, and a hit from a warrior should literally smash them into gory cubes. - have larger enemies require attacking parts of their bodies in stages. I think giants and dragons already had this? Maybe also allow climbing on the enemy to reach their weak points, ala Dragon's Dogma. - obvious and significant elemental weakness, fire should absolutely obliterate an ice monster or the Tevinter Nights hair demon, for instance, but anyone who neglected to spec into fire-damage abilities would struggle. - have bosses operate in phases that necessitate switching up tactics. Maybe a particular boss switches between a 'guard' that negates melee and requires magic to dispel, and a 'barrier' that negates magic and requires the rogue or warrior to rush in. That's just a few things other games have done that I think would make DA combat a lot cooler and fun. Maybe they wouldn't contribute to a sense of 'accomplishment'for everyone, but I'd be stoked. |
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