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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 14, 2020 5:09:12 GMT
A spirit becomes a demon allegedly when it is perverted from its original purpose. Whether by exposure to the mind of a mortal its possessing (Justice), confusing ones memories for its own (Cole, Audric?), encountering dreamers in the fade, or instead by being dragged into the material world unpreppared/unwilling.
Recent conversation in the Next Dragon Age Behind the Scenes thread about spirits and what they get corrupted into as demons prompted me to try to figure out how many demon/spirit combos we know the answer to and speculating what the counterparts are for the ones we don't know.
So I spent some time searching through the wiki, found a couple of things that surprised me, made a few guesses, and compiled a list. SpiritWisdom – Corrupted into – Pride Purpose – Corrupted into – Desire (and maybe despair**?) Faith – Corrupted into –Also Pride if this 2013 David Gaider post is still accurate.Compassion – Corrupted into –Despair or Fear? * Hope – Corrupted into – Despair** Justice – Corrupted into – Vengeance, Sloth** Valour – Corrupted into – Sloth** (and I’d guess maybe Rage?) Command – Corrupted into – Tyranny?? Knowledge (eg. The archivist, Ghil Dirthalen) – Corrupted into – Fear (eg. The Librarian) Curiosity – Corrupted into – Anger/Rage DemonEnvy – Perverted from – Admiration/Ambition??
Pride – Perverted from – Wisdom, Faith Hunger – Perverted from – Survival/Need?? Regret – Perverted from – ??? Sloth (Feeds on: Doubt. Apathy. Entropy) – Perverted from – Justice, Valour** Rage/Anger – Perverted from – Curiosity, (maybe Valour?) Fear (Nightmare > Fear > Terror > Fearlings) – Perverted from – Knowledge (and Compassion?) Despair – Perverted from – Hope** (Compassion? maybe Purpose?) Other
Cekorax – What was the Cekorax? “That soggy mess didn’t do much to clear that up. Some ancient breed of demon? Some fiend brewed up by a Magister?” He looked pensive. “I was at a party with one of those necromancers from down south a while ago. Five cups in, she went on about things ‘past the Veil of our world,’ neither demon nor spirit. Perhaps it wasn’t the tipsy nonsense I assumed it to be.” - Dorian Pavus TN The Higher Dead – An intelligent possessed corpse “Some of my colleagues argue the ‘higher dead’ such as yourself do, in fact, hold fast to their mortal souls. Others attest that this is impossible. They would say you are caught between two spirits: anger and curiousity.” – Myrna, a Mortalitasi of the Mourn Watch. TN
It looks like theres some demon types that more than one spirit can become (pride, sloth), and some spirits can become more then one type of demon (Justice > Vengence or Sloth). So its seems like it may not be a direct 1:1 each spirit having one dark counterpart. The manner in which a spirit is perverted from its purpose I'd guess affects what kind of demon it becomes even if some paths are far more common then others.
So what do you guys think? Got a different guess for what something transforms from/into? Got any idea for what kind of Spirit becomes a Regret Demon?
*Cole's greatest fear is despair, so maybe that’s the kind of demon he would become. But after adamant "I don't steal the pain. The nightmare demon at Adamant did that, it made them less so it could grow. I help them heal." He compares the way he takes memories to help to the way Nightmare, a fear demon, takes memories to feed. So, not sure. ** Once upon a time, we classified these as demons of sloth, but we learned that despair demons are something quite different. They are not the antithesis of justice or valor, but rather of hope. They form nightmares tearing away the foundations of self and purpose. When brought into the world, they are most attracted to places the downtrodden populate: alienages, slums, prisons, and the like. The miasma they spread can lead to extreme behavior. We look for a rash of unexplained suicides, men and women so filled with grief they lash out. The most intelligent of these creatures are to be feared, for they not only feed on despair, they understand its causes... and seek to bring it about. From the shadows they ruin lives, drinking the tears of those who have no idea the cause of their misery is not random chance. —From a lecture by renowned hunter, Ser Hayward of the Templar Order— From Codex entry: Despair Demon ^ Implies that sloth is corrupted Justice and Valour. Also mentions Despair tearing away at purpose but that’s more iffy.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2020 8:21:56 GMT
I do wonder if we have been somewhat misled by Solas because up until then I thought the various spirits and demons were stand alone entities. A spirit starts out as a wisp which has no real identity but then it latches on to a human thought, whether positive or negative, and then grows from there. Yet now we are led to believe that all start out as positive spirits and then these are twisted into demons.
It is the same with the business of spirits being pulled through against their will and being turned into demons as a result. Why would this made Wisdom into Pride? Unless it was the pride of the mages in summoning and controlling the spirit that determined the result. So Wisdom might not automatically be turned into Pride but whatever negative trait had caused the mage to target it. For example, may be it was done as a complete accident, so would this be the result of pride or ignorance?
Also, Regret is a strange case. Why is regret necessarily a negative trait and thus a demon? Regret about past actions and honest reflection on why you acted as you did can help prevent a repeat of the mistake. It is what the person does with Regret that determines if it is something positive or negative and thus a spirit or a demon. I can understand why Solas' regret manifests as a demon, though, because it is not something that has encourage reflection and personal growth, but simply drives him to try and undo his past mistake no matter what the consequences.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 14, 2020 11:38:24 GMT
I took Pride <> Wisdom to be about how "know-it-all" people think they know everything because they are too prideful to realize they do not.
But in general the whole thing clearly isn't on super solid ground, even for the devs. - We meet a Sloth demon in DAO that act like a Nightmare demon, feeding on people's fear and causing them nightmares. (Broken Circle) - We meet many demons that act like mustache twirling villains, yet a few fall more into the "spirits who do not understand what they are doing" category. - We have spirits who turned into a demon (i.e. justice to vengeance) and demons who feed on things and become perverted in the process.
There is even a difference in intelligence with similar type demons. In DAO, there is three sloth demons: - mage intro: too sleepy to care about anything - broken circle: act all evil, proactive and feed on nightmares - Brecilian forest: created a trap so travelers feel asleep and die (doesn't talk)
Maybe the rule about it is that there is no rule: spirits can take any shape or form.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 14, 2020 14:17:54 GMT
Re: the Cekorax, I’d go with Dorian’s hypothesis as the most likely answer, but my second guess would be that it’s some kind of Ghilan’nain shenanigans.
I suppose it’s possible that both could be true — I don’t see any reason why Ghilan’nain’s experiments would have to be confined to the waking world.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jan 12, 2021 1:47:25 GMT
I'm trying to decide if I should add Perseverance from the short story The Next One to my list of spirits/demons. Or if it's just a type of Purpose spirit similar to how there are several types of fear demon increasing in power as they increase in complexity.
Do you guys think Perseverance is a new unique spirit?
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Post by necrowaif on Jan 12, 2021 2:04:16 GMT
Perseverance could just be the spirit’s name. Its actual virtue could be Purpose.
My own feeling on the Cekorax is that it’s an Eldritch Abomination from beyond the world of Thedas.
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Post by yogsothoth on Jan 12, 2021 5:03:15 GMT
I do wonder if we have been somewhat misled by Solas because up until then I thought the various spirits and demons were stand alone entities. A spirit starts out as a wisp which has no real identity but then it latches on to a human thought, whether positive or negative, and then grows from there. Yet now we are led to believe that all start out as positive spirits and then these are twisted into demons. Sort of related, but I would think that Solas's statement (assuming he's telling the truth) that spirits react to mortals and become twisted based on what mortals think, it would make more sense for the kind of demon to depend on who is interacting with it. So say some brutish warrior comes across a Spirit of Wisdom. Perhaps the warrior does not associate Wisdom with Pride but with being weak and being unable to defend yourself (Spirit becomes Fear), being lazy due to lack of training/exercise (Spirit becomes Sloth), or are envious of the people who get to sit around all day instead of fighting (Spirit becomes Envy). It just seems weird that there's apparently a very rigid ruleset when it comes to what a Spirit/Demon can become when it's apparently now somewhat dependent on who they interact with. I remember at one point it was said demons were supposed to be their idea taken to excess, hence why things that are not necessarily negative (pride, hunger, fear, etc) are depicted as such.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 12, 2021 19:34:05 GMT
ustice – Corrupted into – Vengeance, Sloth** Remember that Justice says of Topor in the Fade in DA2 that Sloth has always been his enemy. Part of Anders/Justice's objection to Elthina is that she does nothing rather than positively acting to solve the situation. This is particularly noticeable in his conversations with Sebastian. In order for justice to happen, there has to be action, so sloth would be the antithesis of this. However: I remember at one point it was said demons were supposed to be their idea taken to excess, hence why things that are not necessarily negative (pride, hunger, fear, etc) are depicted as such. This would seem supported by the fact that Justice becomes Vengeance because the desire for justice is taken to extremes. However, I was never convinced about that term being applied to the spirit inside Anders because vengeance to me is associated with revenge whereas the spirit never seemed to me to act out of revenge but only where it was trying to prevent or obtain retribution for an injustice. To be honest I think the writers have changed their minds a fair bit over the course of the games. In DAO demons seem pretty much equated to the 7 Deadly Sins but overtime they have become more numerous, more complex and more confusing. We also need to remember that the Veil probably changed spirits from how they were before. Also, there are spirits that were either trapped outside the Fade or already attached to the land before the Veil was raised (the Lady of the Forest), yet that concept has never really been explored since DAO. Then there are the Forbidden Ones, who are definitely spirits, having shed their mortal forms to return to the Fade, but with distinct identities of their own and who were definitely around before the Veil because they were banished from the lands of the Evanuris.
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Post by Muninn on Jan 12, 2021 20:13:47 GMT
I would also like to add that the ravens of Dirthamen: Fear and Deceit, known from the elven legends, may have previously represented Knowledge and Truth, as Dirthamen is the god of knowledge and secrets. There is also a theory linking them to the Nightmare (Fear demon) and Envy (whose modus operandi is based on deception), respectively.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 12, 2021 21:56:27 GMT
Seems like another one of those things that BioWare didn't think very hard about and have written themselves into a corner now, lol.
Personally I never liked the weird, moralising vibe of it. I don't agree that certain attributes like Pride or Desire are inherently negative and therefore demons. There's no real reason for it to be that way, except that they are based on Cardinal Sins (the concept of which isn't actually supported by the Bible at all, but that's by the by). But even if attributes are inherently negative, why can't they be "purposes"? Why must they be "perversions"? Especially despair. Like, what are people supposed to do? Never have a bad day ever again, so spirits don't turn into evil demons?
Reminds me of this JRPG I played where the negative emotions of humanity were literally poisoning/polluting the world and giving birth to monsters. "It's an inherent and unavoidable part of our nature/experience but it still makes you responsible for incalculable suffering! Have fun with that!"
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Post by yogsothoth on Jan 13, 2021 0:34:17 GMT
We also need to remember that the Veil probably changed spirits from how they were before. I think the key part of spirits is that interacting with the real world allows them to become more complex and develop. This has been pretty consistent in the series. Before the Veil, with unfettered access to the real world, it makes sense that the spirits could become the god-like Evanuris and Forgotten Ones and post-Veil you have the loss of magic and knowledge and Elves become what they are now and most spirits become fragments that can only represent a simple idea until they either interact with mortals who cross the Veil or manage to cross over themselves. The Avvar Spirit-Gods seem to be partially nature spirits, with Korth the god of nature in general, Hakkon was the god of Winter, Uvolla the god of the Wending Wood. Agreed though that they could do more with nature spirits rather than the emotion/idea spirits.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 13, 2021 20:47:58 GMT
I would also like to add that the ravens of Dirthamen: Fear and Deceit, known from the elven legends, may have previously represented Knowledge and Truth, as Dirthamen is the god of knowledge and secrets. There is also a theory linking them to the Nightmare (Fear demon) and Envy (whose modus operandi is based on deception), respectively. It is also possible that Fear and Deceit were just, well--just Fear and Deceit. They didn't neccesarily have to 'previously' been anything that just got corrupted by trauma, but were rather "demonic" spirits that were able to contextualize and know enough about themselves that they were able to represent those concepts in a meaningful way. I would argue it's not an entirely new thing to the series either. We can arguably meet a "good" demon all the way back in DAO: Mouse. Despite wearing the demonic visage of the Pride demons we so commonly fight, he is arguably one of the first reliable forms of fade info players ever receive. Even dispensing info that the Circle would never approve of, like how some spirits in the area may be willing to help, assuming they can trust anything. He also never attempts to possess the player, even when the Warden swallows his lies hook, line, and sinker. And while I would like to dismiss it all as being the protagonist's plot armor, or assuming the demon has higher standards for a possession, his lines actually mirror what Solas tells us about the Fade and spirits in DAI. "The real dangers of the Fade are preconceptions... careless trust... pride". I think there is an argument to be had that just like not all abominations are monstrous killing machines, not all demons are just corrupted versions of thier 'good' variants. Although I suspect such 'stable' demons to be fairly rare.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jan 13, 2021 23:43:58 GMT
I would also like to add that the ravens of Dirthamen: Fear and Deceit, known from the elven legends, may have previously represented Knowledge and Truth, as Dirthamen is the god of knowledge and secrets. There is also a theory linking them to the Nightmare (Fear demon) and Envy (whose modus operandi is based on deception), respectively. It is also possible that Fear and Deceit were just, well--just Fear and Deceit. They didn't neccesarily have to 'previously' been anything that just got corrupted by trauma, but were rather "demonic" spirits that were able to contextualize and know enough about themselves that they were able to represent those concepts in a meaningful way. I would argue it's not an entirely new thing to the series either. We can arguably meet a "good" demon all the way back in DAO: Mouse. Despite wearing the demonic visage of the Pride demons we so commonly fight, he is arguably one of the first reliable forms of fade info players ever receive. Even dispensing info that the Circle would never approve of, like how some spirits in the area may be willing to help, assuming they can trust anything. He also never attempts to possess the player, even when the Warden swallows his lies hook, line, and sinker. And while I would like to dismiss it all as being the protagonist's plot armor, or assuming the demon has higher standards for a possession, his lines actually mirror what Solas tells us about the Fade and spirits in DAI. "The real dangers of the Fade are preconceptions... careless trust... pride". I think there is an argument to be had that just like not all abominations are monstrous killing machines, not all demons are just corrupted versions of thier 'good' variants. Although I suspect such 'stable' demons to be fairly rare. Mouse does try to possess you. First he tricks you into thinking he's just another apprentice, lost in the fade after his harrowing. Then he works to earn your trust by "helping" you prepare for a battle with a weak demon. Then he suggests to you that you could save him, take him back to the real world, let him in. He tries to get you to let him possess you not through some demon deal but through deception and sympathy. But the MC realises what he is at this point and then he starts to show his true form and the harrowing ends, cause he was the real test.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 14, 2021 0:14:51 GMT
Mouse does try to possess you. First he tricks you into thinking he's just another apprentice, lost in the fade after his harrowing. Then he works to earn your trust by "helping" you prepare for a battle with a weak demon. Then he suggests to you that you could save him, take him back to the real world, let him in. He tries to get you to let him possess you not through some demon deal but through deception and sympathy. But the MC realizes what he is at this point and then he starts to show his true form and the harrowing ends, cause he was the real test. For most Wardens, certainly. But there is still option to fall for Mouse's deceptions. If the Warden selects what would ordinarily be a bad option (Namely, the "We'll find other mages. Let's get you out" option), Mouse will just admonish the mage for his foolishness and reveal himself. He didn't even try to initiate a fight at any point either, he just drops the act that was working, did his speech, and peaced out. Even if he was caught, he left the scene a bit prematurely, no? To be clear, I think he would have been fine with letting the mage die beforehand due to ineptitude, and I think he was intent on testing the mage in one form or another. But when successful with his ruse he didn't go through with the possession attempt...for whatever reason. Theories of such reasons range from him deeming the Warden an unworthy candidate or just because he wasn't interested n taking a body that would immediately be slain. I think there was even a theory buzzing around that he later possessed Uldred and that he merely attended harrowings to investigate potential victims.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jan 14, 2021 3:45:11 GMT
Mouse does try to possess you. First he tricks you into thinking he's just another apprentice, lost in the fade after his harrowing. Then he works to earn your trust by "helping" you prepare for a battle with a weak demon. Then he suggests to you that you could save him, take him back to the real world, let him in. He tries to get you to let him possess you not through some demon deal but through deception and sympathy. But the MC realizes what he is at this point and then he starts to show his true form and the harrowing ends, cause he was the real test. For most Wardens, certainly. But there is still option to fall for Mouse's deceptions. If the Warden selects what would ordinarily be a bad option (Namely, the "We'll find other mages. Let's get you out" option), Mouse will just admonish the mage for his foolishness and reveal himself. He didn't even try to initiate a fight at any point either, he just drops the act that was working, did his speech, and peaced out. Even if he was caught, he left the scene a bit prematurely, no? To be clear, I think he would have been fine with letting the mage die beforehand due to ineptitude, and I think he was intent on testing the mage in one form or another. But when successful with his ruse he didn't go through with the possession attempt...for whatever reason. Theories of such reasons range from him deeming the Warden an unworthy candidate or just because he wasn't interested n taking a body that would immediately be slain. I think there was even a theory buzzing around that he later possessed Uldred and that he merely attended harrowings to investigate potential victims. But even in that dialogue option the pc doesn't agree to let him in. And he would know that when they go back to their body and ask the other mages to help him they'll get told what he really is. His first attempt at possession simply seems to have failed, as for why he didn't make a second, it's possible that a) there may be a discernable difference between possessing someone willingly or possessing someone by force that would make the second attempt not worth it. Perhaps the Templars & Mages watching would be able to notice an apprentice trying and failing to resist a possession whereas they wouldn't notice him quietly slip into a willing host? Or perhaps it's just easier to control, and you get better use out of someone you got to agree then someone you had to break into. or perhaps the moment the apprentice successfully resists possession the harrowing ends, so the demon doesn't get a second chance to attack you, that's why everything fades to white shortly after you refuse him as he transforms into his true form. We don't know the exact details of the harrowing. Only that your mind is projected into the fade and a demon summoned for you to face. And that a harrowing ends when the apprentice resists a demon or are possessed. But we've never been told how the harrowing spell/mages recognizes that they have resisted and therefore bring them back out of the Fade. or c) you pass your harrowing when the demon either dies or leaves and this demon simply left. Perhaps the particular Pride demon takes pride in possessing people in a particular way. In taking advantage of their own pride and decieving them. He would not lower himself to possessing someone by attacking like a common ballistic rage demon. The more complicated and powerful spirits do have varying personalities. Regardless I don't think theres any reason to doubt his first attempt was genuine. He asks the mage to let him in. And you are given no dialogue option to say yes to that request - because that would be a game over screen. Same as refusing to become a grey warden would be.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 14, 2021 4:37:55 GMT
For most Wardens, certainly. But there is still option to fall for Mouse's deceptions. If the Warden selects what would ordinarily be a bad option (Namely, the "We'll find other mages. Let's get you out" option), Mouse will just admonish the mage for his foolishness and reveal himself. He didn't even try to initiate a fight at any point either, he just drops the act that was working, did his speech, and peaced out. Even if he was caught, he left the scene a bit prematurely, no? To be clear, I think he would have been fine with letting the mage die beforehand due to ineptitude, and I think he was intent on testing the mage in one form or another. But when successful with his ruse he didn't go through with the possession attempt...for whatever reason. Theories of such reasons range from him deeming the Warden an unworthy candidate or just because he wasn't interested n taking a body that would immediately be slain. I think there was even a theory buzzing around that he later possessed Uldred and that he merely attended harrowings to investigate potential victims. But even in that dialogue option the pc doesn't agree to let him in. And he would know that when they go back to their body and ask the other mages to help him they'll get told what he really is. His first attempt at possession simply seems to have failed, as for why he didn't make a second, it's possible that a) there may be a discernable difference between possessing someone willingly or possessing someone by force that would make the second attempt not worth it. Perhaps the Templars & Mages watching would be able to notice an apprentice trying and failing to resist a possession whereas they wouldn't notice him quietly slip into a willing host? Or perhaps it's just easier to control, and you get better use out of someone you got to agree then someone you had to break into. Or perhaps the moment the apprentice successfully resists possession the harrowing ends, so the demon doesn't get a second chance to attack you, that's why everything fades to white shortly after you refuse him as he transforms into his true form. We don't know the exact details of the harrowing. Only that your mind is projected into the fade and a demon summoned for you to face. And that a harrowing ends when the apprentice resists a demon or are possessed. But we've never been told how the harrowing spell/mages recognizes that they have resisted and therefore bring them back out of the Fade. or c) you pass your harrowing when the demon either dies or leaves and this demon simply left. Perhaps the particular Pride demon takes pride in possessing people in a particular way. In taking advantage of their own pride and decieving them. He would not lower himself to possessing someone by attacking like a common ballistic rage demon. The more complicated and powerful spirits do have varying personalities. Regardless I don't think there's any reason to doubt his first attempt was genuine. He asks the mage to let him in. And you are given no dialogue option to say yes to that request - because that would be a game over screen. Same as refusing to become a grey warden would be. I would argue that Mouse could have just continued trying to weasel a way to be "let in" to the Warden with a bit more talking. Like, my dude, I was literally trying to lose to you years ago for the lulz, but the moment things don't go his way he just...drops it? My memory is hazy on the specificity on all of the options, but any time the Warden selects an option that sounds like he buys his story, and goes through one more branch of the dialogue tree, he just says something along the lines of "They [the templars?] were right about you" and just drops the act prematurely. He sounded disappointed. I guess I expected him to try harder if he really wanted a willing host that badly. Particularly since this warden still hasn't seen through his lies and called him out yet. But your general point(s) still stands. Maybe he was being picky about the method or, alternatively, was simply prohibited from continuing his attempt by some sort of unexplained magic that is specific to the harrowing ritual. Still, I find Mouse...oddly helpful. If he wanted to play the meek cowering apprentice, then why even mention that other spirits may be able to help them? Why not stick to standard Chantry rhetoric that says everything in the fade is dangerous and untrustworthy and streamline the warden to facing the rage demon? And why end the harrowing with that poignant piece of advice about the fade that seems to be genuine? Perhaps he was being magnanimous and I'm overthinking it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 14, 2021 15:12:52 GMT
there may be a discernable difference between possessing someone willingly or possessing someone by force that would make the second attempt not worth it. I've always understood it that it is when the demon effectively forces themselves on the person that they become an abomination that is twisted in appearance. Even when it seems as though the person let them in willingly, it was more a case of no longer resisting the intrusion rather than actively inviting them in, so their sub-conscious resists it even if on the surface they do not appear to do so (does that make sense?). When the person willingly accepts the possession the outward form of that person doesn't change because there is no conflict in their mind, which is why Connor looks normal and why it can be reversed without undue harm. What I am less clear about is how the Templars would be aware if the latter had occurred. However, if we assume they wouldn't know, that could explain why Mouse was willingly to possess someone who had invited them in because he would essentially have "got away with it" and found a way into the Waking World undetected by the watchers. Maybe he was being picky about the method or, alternatively, was simply prohibited from continuing his attempt by some sort of unexplained magic that is specific to the harrowing ritual. Still, I find Mouse...oddly helpful. There is an alternative explanation and that is Mouse wasn't a demon at all but a wisdom spirit, so was just testing you for your own good, which is why the harrowing ends with that advice.
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Jan 14, 2021 16:27:03 GMT
I wish more demons were like Mouse, these are intelligent beings with thoughts and ideas, not mindless darkspawn or animalistic dragons. Making them into ravening hordes really devalues them as legitimate threats and enemies. The Forbidden Ones like Imshael, Gaxkang, Xebenkeck, or the Formless One (hopefully the demon sealed under Minrathous) have personality and character that make them engaging and threatening. Even the Nightmare was just as ominous, we only fight an aspect of it and it's scathing words really take a bite out of all our companions.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 14, 2021 17:24:51 GMT
I wish more demons were like Mouse, these are intelligent beings with thoughts and ideas, not mindless darkspawn or animalistic dragons. Making them into ravening hordes really devalues them as legitimate threats and enemies. The Forbidden Ones like Imshael, Gaxkang, Xebenkeck, or the Formless One "Not a demon, a choice SPIRIT". He was most offended at being labelled a demon. He also pointed out that the spirits don't put the bad feelings into people's heads but come to them because they are there already. "A good man, a humble man, could stand before a pride demon with nothing to fear." A person has nothing to fear from a spirit except whatever trouble you bring with you. "A spirit is the best test mortal man will ever find to uncover the darkest parts of himself...." Certainly the ancient spirits like Imshael are more complex than a label of pride or desire would suggest. They have also been around probably from the beginning of the Waking World. They are certainly capable of existing this side of the Veil without a host and able to take on a form that doesn't seem threatening. The Forbidden Ones were also banished by Elgar'nan, so even if they wouldn't mind the Veil being removed, I think they might well oppose the Evanuris, but it could be they would rather they stayed imprisoned.
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Post by fluffysmom on Jan 14, 2021 18:50:12 GMT
There also seems to be: Terror Regret Remorse
Duty Learning Love Perseverance
I’ve always suspected that Elger’nan was a spirit of Command that became Rage. Dealing with the one in Crestwood, it getting so upset that the world wasn’t bending to its will, I could see that turning into anger and forcing it to. (Plus him being top dog or whatever) I wonder if Solas was just making fun of it by saying “or Pomposity” or if that’s an actual name for one.
I’m also curious about the possible differences between Knowledge and Wisdom. Knowledge is more fact based and Wisdom is more experience/intuition based? I’ve always considered those to be pretty much the same.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 14, 2021 19:31:34 GMT
I’ve always suspected that Elger’nan was a spirit of Command that became Rage. I don't think those early spirits were defined by these sort of concepts. After all, which came first, the chicken or the egg? If there was nothing but spirits what creatures produced the emotions on which these traits are founded? If Elgar'nan was the Firstborn of the Sun, who would he think he was commanding? Now if you go by the Dalish legend, initially he seemed to embody joy at the wonder of creation, which was followed by rage when the things he loved were destroyed. I'm still have the idea that he was more of a nature spirit to begin with. As the Lady of the Forest says, nature can be both beautiful and savage and that seems true of Elgar'nan. We have to remember that the Evanuris became corrupt overtime but didn't begin that way. It started with a war and they were all leaders/commanders in it, which began their rise to godhood.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 18, 2021 15:22:35 GMT
Justice – Corrupted into – Vengeance, Sloth** Could Spirits of Justice also be perverted into Rage?
In Jaws of Hakkon, there was an Inquisition scout who became an abomination and cut a bloody swathe through all those it held responsible for the death of their friend. When the Inquisitor confronted them over, they claimed to only be wanting to exact justice and want to continue working for the Inquisition (which you can allow), but if you chose to fight them, they transformed into a Greater Rage Demon.
Between the motivations of the host when they accepted the deal, the misguided belief they were still acting righteously and the cold fury with which they fell upon their victims, the JOH Rage Demon seems very similar to Justice/Vengeance in DA2.
Come to think of it, we never actually saw Justice manifest into a full abomination in DA2, transforming from his host into a pure demon form (like Uldred). It makes me wonder then if he had, what Vengeance would look like in a demon form? Or whether Justice would have become a Rage demon, but Anders' influence was the only thing holding him back?
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Post by ellehaym on Jan 18, 2021 17:43:46 GMT
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