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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 15, 2020 20:24:44 GMT
The only thing that surprised me was that the vast majority were pro-mage. Like I expected around 55/45 or something but nah, way off. Also the number of women that have Blackwall as canon romance was pitiful. Should've made him bisexual or gay I actually like his redemption arc. I like how he flirts. He chooses to bang you, twice, without telling you who he is. I don't like how if you sleep with him, you get left nude by yourself. I didn't want to see myself naked, I wanted to see HIM naked, so what is this? I find his anger during the judgement a bit bipolar. And then there is no cool wedding in trespasser. Instead, a weird scene where you have PTSD about him disappearing. Not to mention, if you make him a Warden, he dies. Cullen's is just crafted better from a romance standpoint Maybe I just don't like Dorian's and Iron Bull's romance that much so Blackwall seems like a fun time for me, romance-wise.
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Post by sandwichtern on Dec 15, 2020 21:30:58 GMT
So, reading these statistics I had one additional observation. The section 2.4 lists which race the players prefer to use for their PC with 44.3 % preferring elf, 36 % human, 11.1 % having no preference, and the remaining 8.6 % being divided between dwarfs and qunari.
In section 4.1.1 the race of the players' canon Warden is 51.8 % human 40.5 % elf 7.7 % dwarf
And in section 4.1.2 the race of the players' canon Inky is 50.3 % elf 36.9 % human 9.7 % qunari 3.1 % dwarf
Based on above it seems obvious that with good roleplaying options you can significantly raise the number of players willing to play a race other than their number one favourite. So, in DAO the way the Cousland and Amell storylines were crafted and RP options they presented resulted in 15 percentage point increase in people willing to have a human as their canon Warden. In DAI the new lore additions etc. led to 6 percentage point increase in elves as preferred canon Inquisitor.
I'd be interested in seeing how many new fans of dwarfs and qunari would there to be found, if a DA game were to craft more dwarf- and qunari-specific roleplaying options, questlines and lore dumps for the maingame. If we assume right now 4.3 % of DA players adore dwarf PCs (the survey didn't include an exact figure), with a good enough storyline, I'd imagine it might be possible to have 1 in 10 players choose a dwarven character as their canon hero in future.
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Post by arvaarad on Dec 15, 2020 22:22:18 GMT
That might actually tie in to the note the writer made about men always finding versions of themselves in games. I made a joke about it my first post, but it is actually true. I am a straight white atheist male in real life. While I'm fine being that in games as well, if I don't have to be, then cool. Maybe I will be and maybe I won't be. It's part of why I replay DA games so often. I think that’s exactly correct. It’s easier for a straight white male to find other games that let you play as a straight white male, so when there are options, they are more likely to venture out and try something new. Compared to people from underrepresented communities who don’t have as many chances to play characters that are like them so they are more likely to pick that option in games with choices. Which is what you see many women and/or LGBTQ+ people saying. It’s why I have a hard time playing as a woman in Bioware games. There are usually a few m/m romances options for me so by the time I get through a second or third playthrough doing those stories, I’ve exhausted the main plot variations and just never get around to playing my female protagonist playthrough. Yep. I play a pretty even split of men and women in Dragon Age, but if a future Dragon Age game included a nonbinary option, absolutely 0% of my playthroughs would be a man or a woman. It’s essentially impossible to find any games with that option in the genres that I like to play, so of course I’d make the most of it. That said, it would be pretty challenging to support in an RPG, since every LI split or dialogue line referencing gender would be 3x instead of just 2x. So while I’d love to see it as a player, as a software engineer the number of additional permutations makes me break into a cold sweat. I feel like maybe the only way it would ever happen is if one of the future games (likely not DA4) has a spirit or Executor protagonist.
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Post by fluffysmom on Dec 16, 2020 10:22:35 GMT
For me personally, I started Origins as a city elf, romanced Alistair with no spoilers, didn’t have my speech high enough and was dumped after the landsmeet. I was devastated. Shut my game off and didn’t touch it for two weeks. When I went back in I deleted that save and chose human noble. Have never picked a different race in that game since.
Inquisition rolls around and I pick human again because I loved my human rogue in 2. Got to the kiss with Cullen but realized I just wanted to talk to Solas. Dat voice. *chefs kiss* Restarted as an elf and haven’t played a human since.
I’ve never been fond of elves in any game or media but Inquisition did, at least for me, make them interesting. Mostly because of the romance and not just because of who he is. The topic stayed at the forefront quite a bit. Wasn’t relegated to a city hub and a quest. So that helped a lot.
Did those same people pick elves in Inquisition because Solas’ romance is locked to that race or just for lore reasons, since he is one of the top romances?
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Post by Frost on Dec 16, 2020 14:18:01 GMT
For me personally, I started Origins as a city elf, romanced Alistair with no spoilers, didn’t have my speech high enough and was dumped after the landsmeet. I was devastated. Shut my game off and didn’t touch it for two weeks. When I went back in I deleted that save and chose human noble. Have never picked a different race in that game since. Inquisition rolls around and I pick human again because I loved my human rogue in 2. Got to the kiss with Cullen but realized I just wanted to talk to Solas. Dat voice. *chefs kiss* Restarted as an elf and haven’t played a human since. I’ve never been fond of elves in any game or media but Inquisition did, at least for me, make them interesting. Mostly because of the romance and not just because of who he is. The topic stayed at the forefront quite a bit. Wasn’t relegated to a city hub and a quest. So that helped a lot. Did those same people pick elves in Inquisition because Solas’ romance is locked to that race or just for lore reasons, since he is one of the top romances? For me elf is my favorite race so I always pick it if it is an option.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 16, 2020 20:49:59 GMT
I'd submit that these are the statistics of the subreddit, i.e. of people who are enough into the franchise to still regularly talk about it over six years after the last game, not the entire player base. According to BioWare's own telemetry for Dragon Age Origins, for example, 80% of players chose the human noble origin. I bet that just the vast majority of those doesn't post on Reddit - or here for that matter. Thank you. They acknowledge that though, right from the start. "In this section we will investigate the general demographics of the Reddit dragon age players." I don't think there's any question that the data from this survey, and BW's data on all players, are going to be different. Some by a little, some by a lot. And yet there are people in this thread acting as if this survey means something, when it's only representative of a self-selected set of players.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 16, 2020 22:34:44 GMT
They acknowledge that though, right from the start. "In this section we will investigate the general demographics of the Reddit dragon age players." I don't think there's any question that the data from this survey, and BW's data on all players, are going to be different. Some by a little, some by a lot. And yet there are people in this thread acting as if this survey means something, when it's only representative of a self-selected set of players. BioWare seemed to like the data as the results of a specific focus group, but yeah you can't really look at it beyond that.
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Post by necrowaif on Dec 17, 2020 0:53:50 GMT
For me personally, I started Origins as a city elf, romanced Alistair with no spoilers, didn’t have my speech high enough and was dumped after the landsmeet. I was devastated. Shut my game off and didn’t touch it for two weeks. When I went back in I deleted that save and chose human noble. Have never picked a different race in that game since. Inquisition rolls around and I pick human again because I loved my human rogue in 2. Got to the kiss with Cullen but realized I just wanted to talk to Solas. Dat voice. *chefs kiss* Restarted as an elf and haven’t played a human since. I’ve never been fond of elves in any game or media but Inquisition did, at least for me, make them interesting. Mostly because of the romance and not just because of who he is. The topic stayed at the forefront quite a bit. Wasn’t relegated to a city hub and a quest. So that helped a lot. Did those same people pick elves in Inquisition because Solas’ romance is locked to that race or just for lore reasons, since he is one of the top romances? On that basis, I would suggest that romances at least partially influence the canon choices of Dragon Age players. Female elves are likely more popular in DAI because they have four romance options. Human females are likely more popular in DAO because they’re the only ones who can marry King Alistair. If dwarves were the only race who could sex up Varric in DA4, would their representation increase? Methinks it would.
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Post by Anaan on Dec 17, 2020 15:25:44 GMT
For me personally, I started Origins as a city elf, romanced Alistair with no spoilers, didn’t have my speech high enough and was dumped after the landsmeet. I was devastated. Shut my game off and didn’t touch it for two weeks. When I went back in I deleted that save and chose human noble. Have never picked a different race in that game since. Inquisition rolls around and I pick human again because I loved my human rogue in 2. Got to the kiss with Cullen but realized I just wanted to talk to Solas. Dat voice. *chefs kiss* Restarted as an elf and haven’t played a human since. I’ve never been fond of elves in any game or media but Inquisition did, at least for me, make them interesting. Mostly because of the romance and not just because of who he is. The topic stayed at the forefront quite a bit. Wasn’t relegated to a city hub and a quest. So that helped a lot. Did those same people pick elves in Inquisition because Solas’ romance is locked to that race or just for lore reasons, since he is one of the top romances? Not for me, no. I had one Lavellan kiss Solas, but could never make myself do the full romance. From the beginning, I just loved the elven lore and especially that of the Dalish. Solas crapping all over them put him in the 'ew' category for romancing.
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Post by Gwydden on Dec 17, 2020 17:55:42 GMT
And yet there are people in this thread acting as if this survey means something, when it's only representative of a self-selected set of players. It's suggestive of the demographics and preferences of the part of the Dragon Age fandom that posts on Reddit. It's certainly not representative of the Dragon Age playerbase as a whole, but if statistics from other RPGs are any indication the average DA player doesn't even finish the games, and perhaps as much as a quarter don't even get past the prologue. That's what makes this survey in particular interesting in contrast with Bioware's telemetry.
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Post by duskwanderer on Dec 17, 2020 18:06:00 GMT
I'm not sure reddit is the place to get a sample size. People who use message boards like reddit tend to be skewed.
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 18, 2020 17:21:43 GMT
I'm finding this a fascinating read: someone polled the Dragon Age subreddit and got all kinds of statistics about the player base and how they approach the games. Very, very thorough, with a lot of curious info. Wasn't sure where this should go, but I figured this is the best subforum for general DA stuff? I love stuff like this. Good find. I wonder if they plan on future surveys, maybe do a comparison on Twitter/Facebook groups or even someplace here. Doubt we will get full statistical analysis since that is impossible due to outreach, but would be interesting to see the differences betweent he social media groups, if there are any.
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 18, 2020 17:23:49 GMT
City elves need more love. So does Zevran. But I was quite pleased Fenris was so beloved. I'm doing a gay rival romance of Fenris right now for my latest Dragon Age 2 playthrough. It's mostly at the chagrin of my co-host since were streaming it at this point, but i'm enjoying it because i've actually never done a rival romance with Fenris before. It's quite interesting as a dynamic.
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Post by Iddy on Dec 18, 2020 19:35:30 GMT
I can't agree with this whole "the option to play as a woman is rare", because in reality that is rather standard. If it is a RPG game, the option will definitely be there. Even among non-rpg games where you can't choose what the playable character is gonna be, you still can find plenty that have a female protagonist.
This is just a myth that gets parroted a lot.
On another note, it is good to know that both sexes tend to prefer playing a character who matches them. So nobody needs to feel guilty about this.
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Post by necrowaif on Dec 18, 2020 21:53:30 GMT
About the only video game genre I can think of where female protagonists are rare is first-person shooters. Oh, and sports games, but that’s just a reflection of the reality of women’s sports.
Otherwise, female PCs are all over the place.
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Post by arvaarad on Dec 18, 2020 22:25:49 GMT
About the only video game genre I can think of where female protagonists are rare is first-person shooters. Oh, and sports games, but that’s just a reflection of the reality of women’s sports. Otherwise, female PCs are all over the place. I’m curious what the numbers are on that. I’ve noticed that people often (unintentionally) overestimate the %s of minorities in a given group, because people notice minorities more than the “default”. I’ve been on software teams where people will say “oh, that other team is doing good, they’re almost 50/50 women!” when there are literally 2 women and 10 guys. Because people are used to seeing guys in software, they all kind of blend together. Meanwhile, they’re mentally double-counting the women because they’re a more unusual sight. I’ve also seen people make the same kind of error with racial minorities — thinking there’s absolutely massive representation of X or Y group on the team when the actual % is below the general population. So without concrete data, I’m skeptical of estimations, even if they sound reasonable. Human brains have a tendency to really fuck this up — mine included.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Dec 18, 2020 23:21:07 GMT
I've skimmed through most of the numbers, will reread it once I'm awake again (far too tired atm.) I find most of it interesting to read, but I'll still have my own opinions on what to play and who to romance of course personally I tend to play both genders at least once to see the different outcomes, most of my choices tend to be the same apart from romance option anyway plus I'm the type to struggle with deciding their canon characters. I currently have my Warden and Quizzy out of the way, though for the latter I'm still dubbing on her canon romance (went with Cullen for the first run of her playthrough). My main problem is my Hawke who seems to change the most out of the three protagonists
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Post by phoray on Dec 19, 2020 14:03:38 GMT
About the only video game genre I can think of where female protagonists are rare is first-person shooters. Oh, and sports games, but that’s just a reflection of the reality of women’s sports. Otherwise, female PCs are all over the place. I was about to say, Female PCs within a heavy narrative RPG with branching choices is rare, but then most of the games that allow that go out of their way to include both genders as an option. But as a rack on, such truly branching narratives are rare in the first place. But I still feel it's incongruous to say that they are equally represented across all genres but two. Books don't even meet that criteria.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 19, 2020 16:31:09 GMT
And yet there are people in this thread acting as if this survey means something, when it's only representative of a self-selected set of players. It's suggestive of the demographics and preferences of the part of the Dragon Age fandom that posts on Reddit. It's certainly not representative of the Dragon Age playerbase as a whole, but if statistics from other RPGs are any indication the average DA player doesn't even finish the games, and perhaps as much as a quarter don't even get past the prologue. That's what makes this survey in particular interesting in contrast with Bioware's telemetry. What's meaningful about it is that this is likely a fairly-accurate poll of DA's hardest hardcore fans, since that's what showing up on that board and responding to the poll selects for. As a dev I'd take the results seriously; losing these folks will blow up your game's reception even if the casuals don't mind what you've done.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 19, 2020 16:32:35 GMT
About the only video game genre I can think of where female protagonists are rare is first-person shooters. Oh, and sports games, but that’s just a reflection of the reality of women’s sports. Otherwise, female PCs are all over the place. I was about to say, Female PCs within a heavy narrative RPG with branching choices is rare, but then most of the games that allow that go out of their way to include both genders as an option. But as a rack on, such truly branching narratives are rare in the first place. But I still feel it's incongruous to say that they are equally represented across all genres but two. Books don't even meet that criteria. It seems weird that someone somewhere hasn't actually done the work on what is a simple factual question.
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Post by necrowaif on Dec 19, 2020 16:47:18 GMT
I’m curious what the numbers are on that. I’ve noticed that people often (unintentionally) overestimate the %s of minorities in a given group, because people notice minorities more than the “default”. I’m too lazy to search through academic studies, but I will cite this 2019 article by Anita Sarkeesian of Feminist Frequency who examined the games showcased at the 2019 E3. She points out that “established” female video game protagonists (ie. Lara Croft) are a minority compared to established male protagonists (ie. Master Chief). However, games with an established protagonist are outnumbered by games where you can choose the gender of your protagonist, which is what I had in mind when I stated female PCs were all over the place. www.wired.com/story/e3-2019-female-representation-videogames/amp
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Post by arvaarad on Dec 19, 2020 18:02:51 GMT
I’m curious what the numbers are on that. I’ve noticed that people often (unintentionally) overestimate the %s of minorities in a given group, because people notice minorities more than the “default”. I’m too lazy to search through academic studies, but I will cite this 2019 article by Anita Sarkeesian of Feminist Frequency who examined the games showcased at the 2019 E3. She points out that “established” female video game protagonists (ie. Lara Croft) are a minority compared to established male protagonists (ie. Master Chief). However, games with an established protagonist are outnumbered by games where you can choose the gender of your protagonist, which is what I had in mind when I stated female PCs were all over the place. www.wired.com/story/e3-2019-female-representation-videogames/ampThanks for the link! I’m surprised it was 5:1 men:women in fixed-protagonist games, I was honestly expecting the ratio to be a bit closer when narrowed to 2019 only.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2020 2:47:39 GMT
It's suggestive of the demographics and preferences of the part of the Dragon Age fandom that posts on Reddit. It's certainly not representative of the Dragon Age playerbase as a whole, but if statistics from other RPGs are any indication the average DA player doesn't even finish the games, and perhaps as much as a quarter don't even get past the prologue. That's what makes this survey in particular interesting in contrast with Bioware's telemetry. What's meaningful about it is that this is likely a fairly-accurate poll of DA's hardest hardcore fans, since that's what showing up on that board and responding to the poll selects for. As a dev I'd take the results seriously; losing these folks will blow up your game's reception even if the casuals don't mind what you've done. Exactly this! Non-Representative samples still have a lot of practical purpose. And this particular survey gives insight into a particular demographic.
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Post by biggydx on Dec 20, 2020 7:53:32 GMT
I imagine with most new Role-Playing IP's, that offer multiple race options, people tend to want to default to humans. They don't have an established lore to go off of, so playing as a human is likely the "safe" choice for a lot of people. I think the large similarities between humans and elves also goes a long way in how high the numbers are for elven players.
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Post by phoray on Dec 20, 2020 15:38:50 GMT
I come from a poor background and couldn't relate to what a human Noble entaile, so when I played DAO for the first time blind, I picked City Elf.
I never related to the Dalish at all so in DAI I went human mage.
Now that I'm not playing blind, I go elven mage and romance Cullen. And my DAO cannon is probably an elven mage romancing Zevran. I felt like one of the DA books affected me as well as the romance choices. The book that affected me was the Griffon one, where the hero warden that died for ending the Blight said he felt good giving a hero to other elves. And I want to do that too.
Technically Cullen could go human but it was a very elfy game and I like the Dalish vows. It felt very culture inclusive in a game that kinda forces Andrastianism down your throat.
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