Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
2139
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5,079
Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
5,220
November 2016
thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Jan 31, 2021 13:09:52 GMT
Even if you use an expansion card, the PCIe lanes are still shared. So if you plug that into one of the x16 PCIe slots, your motherboard will most likely split the 16 lanes that go to your GPU into 8 lanes. Thus the video card will run at x8 speed and the NVMe expansion card will also run at x8 speed.
That's why if you look closely, that expansion card is actually made for Threadripper mobos. Threadripper gets 64 lanes from the CPU and an additional 24 lanes from the chipset. Unlike the desktop Ryzen 3000/5000 CPUs where they only get 24 from the CPU with 4 of those are used to communicate with the chipset and leaving you only 20 available lanes. I thought that would only be true if it was a PCIe4.0 card version. The one I linked was PCIe 3.0. So the card will not take full advantage PCIe lanes.
Or would it run at half of 8x? From what I have seen with PCIe 4.0 motherboards running at 8x now... Is like running at 16x under old motherboards with PCIe2.0. Maybe that is wrong?
There is a 4.0 version though...
ASUS Hyper M.2 X16 PCIe 4.0
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,823 Likes: 13,456
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Heimdall
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 31, 2021 13:20:33 GMT
Random thing, but surprisingly one of the harder things to find when I was shopping for my build was a case that had what I wanted. Mostly I was surprised at how many of the options coming up lacked an external 5.25” drive bay. Apparently those have just completely fallen out of fashion? Maybe it’s just been too long since I’ve shopped for a case.
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Post by rewindbutton on Jan 31, 2021 14:06:23 GMT
Random thing, but surprisingly one of the harder things to find when I was shopping for my build was a case that had what I wanted. Mostly I was surprised at how many of the options coming up lacked an external 5.25” drive bay. Apparently those have just completely fallen out of fashion? Maybe it’s just been too long since I’ve shopped for a case. I hadn't noticed this either, but you are right, optical drives are becoming obsolete. I checked my trusty local store, and yes, they would seem to have few cases with 5.25 bays. It is an end of an era, I suppose.
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Post by bmwcrazy on Jan 31, 2021 15:38:02 GMT
I thought that would only be true if it was a PCIe4.0 card version. The one I linked was PCIe 3.0. So the card will not take full advantage PCIe lanes. Or would it run at half of 8x? From what I have seen with PCIe 4.0 motherboards running at 8x now... Is like running at 16x under old motherboards with PCIe2.0. Maybe that is wrong?
There is a 4.0 version though...
ASUS Hyper M.2 X16 PCIe 4.0
It doesn't matter though, the number of PCIe lanes still doesn't change. It would still split the PCIe lanes if your system didn't have enough lanes. In this case, it would also run at the slower PCIe 3.0 rate which is basically half of PCIe 4.0. It's the same as running two video cards on SLI or Crossfire on a desktop platform. So if the NVMe expansion card ran at x8 speed, that means you could use two drives and each would get its dedicated 4 lanes from the CPU. If the card ran at the full x16 speed, you could use up to four drives instead. Edit: I forgot to mention that your mobo also needs to support PCIe bifurcation natively in order to use that Asus Hyper M.2 expansion card. Threadripper mobos all support PCIe bifurcation so you can just go to BIOS and split the x16 PCIe lanes into four x4 PCIe lanes for your four NVMe drives. As far as I know, there aren't too many normal desktop mobos that have PCIe bifurcation support and even if they do, you shouldn't expect these NVMe expansion cards to work as they are intended on them. If your mobo doesn't support PCIe bifurcation, you need to get a NVMe expansion card that also has a built-in chipset/switch in order to use all those M.2 slots. Those expansion cards with built-in switches are also very expensive.
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Post by bmwcrazy on Jan 31, 2021 15:40:24 GMT
I rechecked, and it would seem we were both right about this. The X570 chipset supports three M.2 drives: 1. straight from the CPU 2. a dedicated 32Gbps bus from the northbridge 3. a shared PCIe bus from the northbridge The dedicated bus isn't sharing bandwidth, it is in it's own bus, thus your MB has two full speed M.2 slots. But since the northbridge has many duties, it is unlikely the second drive is as fast as the drive in the CPU bus.
The third slot unfortunately isn't there, but it is a sign of things to come. We might be getting MBs with only M.2 slots in the future. Some X570 mobos support 3 M.2 NVMe. The first one always gets the dedicated 4 lanes from the CPU. The second and the third each gets 4 lanes from the chipset. However the X570 chipset only communicates with the CPU through a 4 lanes bus. So those last two M.2 drives would still have to share those 4 lanes and it could create protentional bottleneck. The good thing is that PCIe 4.0 gives you double the bandwidth of PCIe 3.0.
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Post by bmwcrazy on Jan 31, 2021 16:13:20 GMT
Random thing, but surprisingly one of the harder things to find when I was shopping for my build was a case that had what I wanted. Mostly I was surprised at how many of the options coming up lacked an external 5.25” drive bay. Apparently those have just completely fallen out of fashion? Maybe it’s just been too long since I’ve shopped for a case. Haha. I honestly thought I was the last person on earth who still used an optical drive before I planned my new build. Most people just don't need to have a DVD/Bluray drive and case manufacturers have realized that by removing the 5.25 bays, it gives the case a much cleaner look. They could also significantly shrink the size of the case, put fans in the front, and give it a much better airflow. I still keep a USB DVD/Bluray drive in my closet in case I ever need to pull something off one of my old CD-ROM discs or DVDs.
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Post by rewindbutton on Jan 31, 2021 16:36:19 GMT
Some X570 mobos support 3 M.2 NVMe. The first one always gets the dedicated 4 lanes from the CPU. The second and the third each gets 4 lanes from the chipset. However the X570 chipset only communicates with the CPU through a 4 lanes bus. So those last two M.2 drives would still have to share those 4 lanes and it could create protentional bottleneck. The good thing is that PCIe 4.0 gives you double the bandwidth of PCIe 3.0. I maintain that we are talking about the same thing. And since your MB has two M.2 slots, the bottleneck is negligible. Here's the source:
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Post by bmwcrazy on Jan 31, 2021 17:27:07 GMT
I maintain that we are talking about the same thing. And since your MB has two M.2 slots, the bottleneck is negligible. Yeah, I didn't say we were talking about different things. I just wanted to clarify your point. Haha. The bottleneck is negligible especially for PCIe 4.0 devices. Just keep in mind that if your X570 mobo supports three NVMe M.2 drives, two of them will be connected to the X570 chipset and they will all use the same 4-lane bus that connects the X570 chipset and the CPU. If you have a B550 chipset, you don't get that kind of flexibility. B550 uses PCIe 3.0 to connect to the CPU, so you don't get any extra PCIe 4.0 lanes. Instead, B550 gives you 10 extra PCIe 3.0 lanes. That's one of the reasons to pay a little extra for an X570 mobo especially if you want to use multiple PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 drives.
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Post by rewindbutton on Jan 31, 2021 17:44:17 GMT
Random thing, but surprisingly one of the harder things to find when I was shopping for my build was a case that had what I wanted. Mostly I was surprised at how many of the options coming up lacked an external 5.25” drive bay. Apparently those have just completely fallen out of fashion? Maybe it’s just been too long since I’ve shopped for a case. Haha. I honestly thought I was the last person on earth who still used an optical drive before I planned my new build. I actually had to check if my optical drive was plugged in. It sure was.
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Post by rewindbutton on Jan 31, 2021 17:48:50 GMT
If you have a B550 chipset, you don't get that kind of flexibility. B550 uses PCIe 3.0 to connect to the CPU, so you don't get any extra PCIe 4.0 lanes. Instead, B550 gives you 10 extra PCIe 3.0 lanes. That's one of the reasons to pay a little extra for an X570 mobo especially if you want to use multiple PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 drives. Yeah, the X570 is definitely the way to go. The only downside currently (besides the price) is getting those heat shields to fit. MoBos are getting crowded.
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,823 Likes: 13,456
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∯ Interjector in Chief
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August 2016
heimdall
Heimdall
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
HeimdallX
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 31, 2021 19:40:24 GMT
Random thing, but surprisingly one of the harder things to find when I was shopping for my build was a case that had what I wanted. Mostly I was surprised at how many of the options coming up lacked an external 5.25” drive bay. Apparently those have just completely fallen out of fashion? Maybe it’s just been too long since I’ve shopped for a case. Haha. I honestly thought I was the last person on earth who still used an optical drive before I planned my new build. Most people just don't need to have a DVD/Bluray drive and case manufacturers have realized that by removing the 5.25 bays, it gives the case a much cleaner look. They could also significantly shrink the size of the case, put fans in the front, and give it a much better airflow. I definitely get the rationale and I do like the look of a lot of those cases. I kind of like having things integrated, but I don’t need it much if I’m honest. I suspect that when the time comes to do another build I’ll end up getting an external drive or something.
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alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 31, 2021 20:30:42 GMT
I just love reading threads like this when my entire rig cost <$500.
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,823 Likes: 13,456
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∯ Interjector in Chief
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Nov 22, 2024 19:03:54 GMT
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Heimdall
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
HeimdallX
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 8, 2021 23:04:32 GMT
Slight necro, but those fans I was talking about arrived. They seem to be what was advertised. So this weekend may be when I finally get to the "build" portion of my build
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Post by bmwcrazy on Feb 9, 2021 1:44:30 GMT
Slight necro, but those fans I was talking about arrived. They seem to be what was advertised. So this weekend may be when I finally get to the "build" portion of my build Oh nice. The Corsair maglev fans. I thought about getting the ML120 Pro, but those were constantly sold out and were also quite expensive. Are you gonna use a Commander Pro for these fans?
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,823 Likes: 13,456
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∯ Interjector in Chief
279
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1
Nov 22, 2024 19:03:54 GMT
13,456
Heimdall
5,823
August 2016
heimdall
Heimdall
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
HeimdallX
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 9, 2021 2:09:19 GMT
Slight necro, but those fans I was talking about arrived. They seem to be what was advertised. So this weekend may be when I finally get to the "build" portion of my build Oh nice. The Corsair maglev fans. I thought about getting the ML120 Pro, but those were constantly sold out and were also quite expensive. Are you gonna use a Commander Pro for these fans? Yup, that actually came included with the AIO cooler I got.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
2139
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5,079
Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
5,220
November 2016
thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Feb 9, 2021 7:09:14 GMT
Slight necro, but those fans I was talking about arrived. They seem to be what was advertised. So this weekend may be when I finally get to the "build" portion of my build Oh nice. The Corsair maglev fans. I thought about getting the ML120 Pro, but those were constantly sold out and were also quite expensive. Are you gonna use a Commander Pro for these fans? Any idea of the longevity of magnetic levitation fan versus fluid dynamic and ball bearing fans?
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Post by rewindbutton on Feb 9, 2021 10:55:53 GMT
Slight necro, but those fans I was talking about arrived. They seem to be what was advertised. So this weekend may be when I finally get to the "build" portion of my build It's okay, we won't tell the mods.
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Post by rewindbutton on Feb 9, 2021 11:20:33 GMT
Any idea of the longevity of magnetic levitation fan versus fluid dynamic and ball bearing fans? I couldn't find reliable info on this, but a figure of 200 000 hours has been flying around the web. I seriously doubt this, because there still is a physical contact between the case and the rotor. Otherwise the fan would just drop or fly off. But I'm sure they last long enough, and they do eliminate the weakest link in a case fan, namely the cheap Chinese bearing.
For mission critical purposes I recommend using German engineering:
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
2139
0
5,079
Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
5,220
November 2016
thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Feb 10, 2021 6:27:08 GMT
Any idea of the longevity of magnetic levitation fan versus fluid dynamic and ball bearing fans? I couldn't find reliable info on this, but a figure of 200 000 hours has been flying around the web. I seriously doubt this, because there still is a physical contact between the case and the rotor. Otherwise the fan would just drop or fly off. But I'm sure they last long enough, and they do eliminate the weakest link in a case fan, namely the cheap Chinese bearing. For mission critical purposes I recommend using German engineering:
Yes.
I agree German engineering would definitely be a step in the right direction. There is another company that beats it right now in my mind though.
The Austrian company of Noctua and their A12x25 -which has a 150,000 hr MTBF. Something to do with SSO2 bearing system but I think this is some fancy type of fluid dynamic bearing.
200k MTBF would definitely get my attention. I am all about longevity when it comes to hardware components. If I build a computer I want all the hardware to run without replacing till the PSU dies.
Current CPU fans have been running since I built this computer 5 years ago. Those fans are Noctua NF-12's:
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Unicephalon 40-D
An unknown possibly hostile flotilla detected at eight hundred astronomical units from the sun!
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legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Feb 10, 2021 8:52:32 GMT
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Post by rewindbutton on Feb 10, 2021 11:54:03 GMT
Yes.
I agree German engineering would definitely be a step in the right direction. There is another company that beats it right now in my mind though.
The Austrian company of Noctua and their A12x25 -which has a 150,000 hr MTBF. Something to do with SSO2 bearing system but I think this is some fancy type of fluid dynamic bearing.
200k MTBF would definitely get my attention. I am all about longevity when it comes to hardware components. If I build a computer I want all the hardware to run without replacing till the PSU dies.
Current CPU fans have been running since I built this computer 5 years ago. Those fans are Noctua NF-12's: Oh yes, Noctua is top notch. I have a similar Noctua tower in my rig. Very quiet and runs cool. You can get good stuff made in made in China, but your QA/QC has to be up to the task.
Funny you should mention the PSU; it is always the first component to go in my builds! This is probably because 3D games stress the PSU a lot. A temperature rise of 20 degrees may halve the MTBF of a PSU. And the temperature rise may well be 40 degrees under constant load. Hence I overkill the wattage, but it only gets you so far, as I burn through PSUs pretty quickly.
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Post by rewindbutton on Feb 10, 2021 12:08:16 GMT
Would this be for Linux or Windows? I'm not an audio guy, but it has been my understanding, that Win10 is particularly crappy for audio builds? Other than that it is a nifty heavy duty workstation.
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An unknown possibly hostile flotilla detected at eight hundred astronomical units from the sun!
5,039
Jun 29, 2017 12:57:11 GMT
June 2017
legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Dragon Age The Veilguard
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Feb 10, 2021 12:17:25 GMT
Would this be for Linux or Windows? I'm not an audio guy, but it has been my understanding, that Win10 is particularly crappy for audio builds? Other than that it is a nifty heavy duty workstation. Weeelll... lets put it this way: most of the worlds music is gone through either Windows or a mac So no its not particularly crappy at all, I would not touch linux yet for pro audio at all too. Win10 has numerous things done for audioside that Win8 and 7 dont have, but it has the dreaded windows update which is crappy though I'm running Win7 atm. on this 2013 machine. Can run 1,5ms latencies if needed easily with high track count (for this CPU). I expect to have same on new but much much more fx & tracks until I even hit 60% CPU.
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Post by rewindbutton on Feb 10, 2021 12:48:22 GMT
Weeelll... lets put it this way: most of the worlds music is gone through either Windows or a mac So no its not particularly crappy at all, I would not touch linux yet for pro audio at all too. Win10 has numerous things done for audioside that Win8 and 7 dont have, but it has the dreaded windows update which is crappy though I'm running Win7 atm. on this 2013 machine. Can run 1,5ms latencies if needed easily with high track count (for this CPU). I expect to have same on new but much much more fx & tracks until I even hit 60% CPU. Like I said, I'm not an audio guy, but when I see a workstation like that, I start thinking all the Linux applications. Yeah, I know about Fruity Loops and DAWs, but I've never built one or done any music. But I heard some whispers that the migration from Win7 to Win10 didn't go all that well for the music guys. And latencies are all networking to me...
Windows 7 was a fantastic OS, the best Windows so far.
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Apr 26, 2022 11:22:31 GMT
9,067
Unicephalon 40-D
An unknown possibly hostile flotilla detected at eight hundred astronomical units from the sun!
5,039
Jun 29, 2017 12:57:11 GMT
June 2017
legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Dragon Age The Veilguard
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Feb 10, 2021 13:24:15 GMT
Weeelll... lets put it this way: most of the worlds music is gone through either Windows or a mac So no its not particularly crappy at all, I would not touch linux yet for pro audio at all too. Win10 has numerous things done for audioside that Win8 and 7 dont have, but it has the dreaded windows update which is crappy though I'm running Win7 atm. on this 2013 machine. Can run 1,5ms latencies if needed easily with high track count (for this CPU). I expect to have same on new but much much more fx & tracks until I even hit 60% CPU. Like I said, I'm not an audio guy, but when I see a workstation like that, I start thinking all the Linux applications. Yeah, I know about Fruity Loops and DAWs, but I've never built one or done any music. But I heard some whispers that the migration from Win7 to Win10 didn't go all that well for the music guys. And latencies are all networking to me...
Windows 7 was a fantastic OS, the best Windows so far.
Moving from win7 to win10 means full start from 0 for me at least, I mean install everything again and authorize. Also I have to change audiocard as its PCI.. no win10 drivers either. So no upgrade path is possible for me, and would not do it anyway, too much moving parts etc. Most audio people I know stay with same OS setup for years and years. Usually the update comes necessary if hardware breaks up or CPU just doesnt keep up anymore with new plugins and amount of tracks needed.
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