Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 4, 2021 1:47:37 GMT
I don't think having more time or money necessary makes a game good. Uncharted 4 did well because of the employees they making the game since if the reports are true they looked for developers that would fall into the perfectionist category and then watch them work crazy hours for that perfection. The problem I think BioWare has had all these years isn't time or money, but the leadership making key mistakes especially after the Doctors left. So they could just have easily made different or bigger mistakes if given a longer development window for either game. While that may be true, Andromeda and Anthem are examples of games being made in 18 months and ME3, in terms of content, is up to the same level. A very underwhelming conclusion to an otherwise exquisite duology. I think those claims of being made in 18 months is incorrect even if those articles are true because they weren't just starting development at that time, they scrapped a large portion of completed work and restarted or altered what was there. That demonstrates a problem with management especially when it happens multiple times in sequential products. So to me it shows that if those games had a longer development cycle something else could have crept into the development cycle and caused more problems for the development team.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 4, 2021 1:50:30 GMT
I think those claims of being made in 18 months is incorrect even if those articles are true because they weren't just starting development at that time, they scrapped a large portion of completed work and restarted or altered what was there. That demonstrates a problem with management especially when it happens multiple times in sequential products. So to me it shows that if those games had a longer development cycle something else could have crept into the development cycle and caused more problems for the development team. As much as I agree with you, that there are problems in upper management, it also proves that you can't fuck around for years to make a game in a mad crunch of 18 months, nor can you start a game with the prospect of making it in 18 mad months of crunch.
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Post by apollexander on Jan 4, 2021 2:13:48 GMT
Go back to the root of RPG: non-linear narratives.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 4, 2021 2:30:39 GMT
I think those claims of being made in 18 months is incorrect even if those articles are true because they weren't just starting development at that time, they scrapped a large portion of completed work and restarted or altered what was there. That demonstrates a problem with management especially when it happens multiple times in sequential products. So to me it shows that if those games had a longer development cycle something else could have crept into the development cycle and caused more problems for the development team. As much as I agree with you, that there are problems in upper management, it also proves that you can't fuck around for years to make a game in a mad crunch of 18 months, nor can you start a game with the prospect of making it in 18 mad months of crunch. I agree. I also think both problems can be fixed with the same solution which has now happened. I put the the 18 month window of development more as a problem with the upper level of management not stepping in when needed and requiring a solution. The project lead also holds responsibility as well, but if they aren't seeing the problem for whatever reason and it can happen someone needs to save them from themselves.
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Post by biggydx on Jan 4, 2021 3:15:12 GMT
Higher graphical fidelity, as well as improved visual presentation quality, definitely plays a part in development time. However, I'd say the incessant need for "more content" is what largely leads to sequels being generated over 5+ years. I still remember an article from Amy Hennig (creative director for the Uncharted games) saying at a DICE event that the average gamer isn't satisfied with only a AAA, 8hr experience with no frills. And she's probably right. I don't think it's bad that a more linear game be given more time to development time if it leads to a better product in the end. What would ME3 have looked like if it were given 3-5 years to work on instead of 18 months? Would BioWare had needed to rely on reused level assets so heavily in Dragon Age 2 had they been given more time? Finally, a linear story experience doesn't necessitate that the next game in the franchise will come out in less than three years. Uncharted 4 released nearly 5 years after its predecessor. I don't think having more time or money necessary makes a game good. Uncharted 4 did well because of the employees they making the game since if the reports are true they looked for developers that would fall into the perfectionist category and then watch them work crazy hours for that perfection. The problem I think BioWare has had all these years isn't time or money, but the leadership making key mistakes especially after the Doctors left. So they could just have easily made different or bigger mistakes if given a longer development window for either game. I wouldn't disagree with that sentiment either. I'm just saying that, if you want a high quality product for your game (even if it is more linear in design), then you'll want to give it as much time as it needs to reach said quality. How the developers, team leads, directors, and producers, handle said product is always unknown.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 4, 2021 3:55:38 GMT
I don't think having more time or money necessary makes a game good. Uncharted 4 did well because of the employees they making the game since if the reports are true they looked for developers that would fall into the perfectionist category and then watch them work crazy hours for that perfection. The problem I think BioWare has had all these years isn't time or money, but the leadership making key mistakes especially after the Doctors left. So they could just have easily made different or bigger mistakes if given a longer development window for either game. I wouldn't agree with that sentiment either. I'm just saying that, if you want a high quality product for your game (even if it is more linear in design), then you'll want to give it as much time as it needs to reach said quality. How the developers, team leads, directors, and producers, handle said product is always unknown. That unknown does impact how things are handled though. Anthem was in development for almost six years I believe so they had the money and time to make a product, but something went wrong during development and if correct made major changes to the game in only 18 months. So they had the time and money and it didn't work out and I doubt they could delay it anymore for then the cost was just too high.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 4, 2021 4:04:11 GMT
Its possible to have a strong story AND a somewhat open-world gameplay. Look at Metro Exodus, a tight good story implemented in a series of very large maps with unique side quests that all tie to the story. At times, when needed, the story would get squeezed back together and accelerated by corridor-ish maps again. The problem is not the open-world concept itself, its just that developers tend to get VERY lazy and VERY unoriginal very quickly working with it, they make a pretty large map and just dump truckloads of empty filler content, fetch quests, resource grinding and moronic stuff that has nothing to do with the story on it. THAT is the problem. It also helped that Metro Exodus had a far more compiling, impactful story arc.
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Post by leadintea on Jan 4, 2021 4:22:11 GMT
My advice to Bioware would be: stick to what you know. Bioware had the most success when they made games with a tight story and a fair bit of exploration here and there. Their endeavors in open world, on the other hand, have all fell flat and the open world design just doesn't fit with what Bioware does well. I wish they would just eschew chasing after what other companies do well and double down on the things they do well.
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Post by biggydx on Jan 4, 2021 5:05:45 GMT
I wouldn't agree with that sentiment either. I'm just saying that, if you want a high quality product for your game (even if it is more linear in design), then you'll want to give it as much time as it needs to reach said quality. How the developers, team leads, directors, and producers, handle said product is always unknown. That unknown does impact how things are handled though. Anthem was in development for almost six years I believe so they had the money and time to make a product, but something went wrong during development and if correct made major changes to the game in only 18 months. So they had the time and money and it didn't work out and I doubt they could delay it anymore for then the cost was just too high. Freakin autocorrect. My first sentence was supposed to say "I wouldn't disagree with that sentiment"
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Post by Fredward on Jan 4, 2021 6:58:02 GMT
More linear/smaller, fewer and more focused environments? Yeah, sure. More linear plot/player choices? No.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 4, 2021 7:51:18 GMT
I don't think having more time or money necessary makes a game good. Uncharted 4 did well because of the employees they making the game since if the reports are true they looked for developers that would fall into the perfectionist category and then watch them work crazy hours for that perfection. The problem I think BioWare has had all these years isn't time or money, but the leadership making key mistakes especially after the Doctors left. So they could just have easily made different or bigger mistakes if given a longer development window for either game. I wouldn't agree with that sentiment either. I'm just saying that, if you want a high quality product for your game (even if it is more linear in design), then you'll want to give it as much time as it needs to reach said quality. How the developers, team leads, directors, and producers, handle said product is always unknown. Somehow I suspect that if it was up to us to fund a game out of our own pockets, we'd feel differently about the prospect of being obligated to potentially keep paying developers ad infinitum for the sake of "maybe eventually getting a good game".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 16:48:25 GMT
3 or 4 hub cities/ areas with several, unique & hand crafted linear levels/ dungeons like DA:O & ME2? Yes
5 to 7 huge sandboxes with weak exploration gameplay & cheep feeling quests like DA:I & MEA? No
As for narrative, go nuts. Especially if this is the first & last time we go to Tiventer & Solas nukes most of Thedas.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 4, 2021 17:44:45 GMT
Not all maps in DA:I were terrible. The Fallow Mire was great for example. I think that's the scope of maps they should go for in DA4 for the most part. But I also loved Hinterlands, and I think one, two maximum really big maps with a lot of stuff to do and explore and that you revisit frequently during story, companion and side quests is great.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jan 4, 2021 18:17:05 GMT
I don't think having more time or money necessary makes a game good. Uncharted 4 did well because of the employees they making the game since if the reports are true they looked for developers that would fall into the perfectionist category and then watch them work crazy hours for that perfection. The problem I think BioWare has had all these years isn't time or money, but the leadership making key mistakes especially after the Doctors left. So they could just have easily made different or bigger mistakes if given a longer development window for either game. While that may be true, Andromeda and Anthem are examples of games being made in 18 months and ME3, in terms of content, is up to the same level. A very underwhelming conclusion to an otherwise exquisite duology. Being made in 18 months, when both games actually had 7/8 years of time that they wasted.
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Xunne13
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
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Post by Xunne13 on Jan 4, 2021 18:29:53 GMT
I think Bioware games work best in smaller environments. Their strength is in storytelling and characterisation. I want more choices and replayability, not pointless exploiration to hunt shards. Leave the sandboxes to Bethesda.
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Post by Little Bengel on Jan 4, 2021 18:33:54 GMT
when both games actually had 7/8 years of time that they wasted. I'll agree with that when it comes to Anthem, but Andromeda had nowhere close to 7/8 years of development. Closer to 5, really.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jan 4, 2021 18:47:41 GMT
when both games actually had 7/8 years of time that they wasted. I'll agree with that when it comes to Anthem, but Andromeda had nowhere close to 7/8 years of development. Closer to 5, really. Fairly sure the report gave it about 6/7. Either way. 5 years is more than enough time if your not bumbling buffoons. Still ended up being an 18 month game because they were hell bent on making an even worse game, No Man's SKy.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 4, 2021 19:04:21 GMT
I'll agree with that when it comes to Anthem, but Andromeda had nowhere close to 7/8 years of development. Closer to 5, really. Fairly sure the report gave it about 6/7. Either way. 5 years is more than enough time if your not bumbling buffoons. Still ended up being an 18 month game because they were hell bent on making an even worse game, No Man's SKy. I don’t know how they thought procedurally generated shit would be at all a decent fit for Mass Effect. I honestly wish they went the Outer Worlds route and canned the Nomad. Just have us land our ship at the point of interest so we can do our thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2021 19:28:37 GMT
Not all maps in DA:I were terrible. The Fallow Mire was great for example. I think that's the scope of maps they should go for in DA4 for the most part. But I also loved Hinterlands, and I think one, two maximum really big maps with a lot of stuff to do and explore and that you revisit frequently during story, companion and side quests is great. I'd kinda disagree with you there. I did a completionist run of DAI (including the DLC's) last summer that clocked in at just over 80 hours. 50 hours of that was in the sandbox zones, over 8 of those in the Hinterlands. Not for one moment did I feel that Inquisition benefited from having these zones. It would have been a much better game if these zones were cut imo. Bioware could & probably will refine their design in DA4 but here are the problems I have with these types of levels in DAI 1) Party banter takes too long to trigger 2) There isn't enough banter for 50 hours of exploration 3) The Inquisitor moved too slow + didn't have a sprint button 4) Exploration mechanics consisted of jogging, a measly jump button & climbing some ladders 5) Mounts were too slow & felt floaty 6) Mounts would reset the banter count down trigger 7) Re-used areas mean we don't see diverse environments & architecture. ME2 missions were small, but that game feels 100 times bigger than DAI's world despite the raw area sizes being the exact opposite 8) "One and done" levels can be designed towards specific fights or iconic scenes. I prefer this approach than having to reuse one environment for primary quests, side content & companion quests. Eg, Redcliffe village for Mages quest setup, Dorian confronting his farther, Cole confronting the templar who killed his hosts body. It a matter of personal tastes, I just find this kind of content to be a waste of time no matter the game I'm playing. Even games that do exploration alot better than Bioware I don't see how sandbox levels could make a DA game better, unless you turned it into an action game.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jan 4, 2021 20:06:27 GMT
unless you turned it into an action game. Oh, would you look at the time ...
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Post by biggydx on Jan 4, 2021 21:37:16 GMT
I'd be down for large hub world environments if they were modeled off of DA:Is Crestwood region. Mainly, have areas that are segmented from each other so your choices can significantly alter the region. The area would then stand as a testament to your actions.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 5, 2021 22:15:55 GMT
Bioware's best games followed the "Star Map" format.
After the initial arc, you go through several different arcs in the story, which can be taken in any order, and may have some variations based on what order you do them in. Followed by an endgame arc.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Jan 5, 2021 23:08:13 GMT
I'll agree with that when it comes to Anthem, but Andromeda had nowhere close to 7/8 years of development. Closer to 5, really. Fairly sure the report gave it about 6/7. Either way. 5 years is more than enough time if your not bumbling buffoons. Still ended up being an 18 month game because they were hell bent on making an even worse game, No Man's SKy. Apparently not, considering cyberpunk.
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Post by NotN7 on Jan 5, 2021 23:20:00 GMT
My advice to Bioware would be: stick to what you know. Bioware had the most success when they made games with a tight story and a fair bit of exploration here and there. Their endeavors in open world, on the other hand, have all fell flat and the open world design just doesn't fit with what Bioware does well. I wish they would just eschew chasing after what other companies do well and double down on the things they do well. I agree to a point but with the revolving door at BioWare is there anyone left there that knows what BioWare should stick too? what was then (In my mind) is well... not today just saying look at the last two games MEA, Anthem.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 6, 2021 12:54:19 GMT
My advice to Bioware would be: stick to what you know. Bioware had the most success when they made games with a tight story and a fair bit of exploration here and there. Their endeavors in open world, on the other hand, have all fell flat and the open world design just doesn't fit with what Bioware does well. I wish they would just eschew chasing after what other companies do well and double down on the things they do well. I agree to a point but with the revolving door at BioWare is there anyone left there that knows what BioWare should stick too? what was then (In my mind) is well... not today just saying look at the last two games MEA, Anthem. If all the people that "know what BioWare should stick to" are gone, then why should BioWare stick to it anymore?
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