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Apr 26, 2022 11:22:31 GMT
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Unicephalon 40-D
An unknown possibly hostile flotilla detected at eight hundred astronomical units from the sun!
5,061
Jun 29, 2017 12:57:11 GMT
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legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Dragon Age The Veilguard
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jan 6, 2021 13:33:08 GMT
I dont think they are going to go back to tight corridors of ME2 or small cave areas of DA:O/DA2. DAI was bit hampered by old consoles (as were the previous games) memory amount.
Balance can be found with the hub areas and open worlds and for me I think they were quite close already with DAI and MEA.
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sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 13,111 Likes: 21,194
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Go Team!
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December 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 6, 2021 14:42:13 GMT
Not all maps in DA:I were terrible. The Fallow Mire was great for example. I think that's the scope of maps they should go for in DA4 for the most part. But I also loved Hinterlands, and I think one, two maximum really big maps with a lot of stuff to do and explore and that you revisit frequently during story, companion and side quests is great. TBH I think with Dragon Age it suits open world more because of it's medieval magic and mystery nature whic his why DAI go tawa ywith it and becam ewha tit did ME on the other hand ma ybe better suited to a moer enclosed environment fot rit's stories. Yes I did like Andromeda amnd the fact it took a lighter tone which I appreciated. Which is why I still pla yi tand will likely continu eto do so but I think it's moer down as t ohow open the world is as I think MEA got i tjus tabou tright in terms of size compared with DAI which I felt was a little too open. I hate to bring it up again but looking again at Horizon Zero Dawn as an example it had an MEA sized map and a DA style world and it just worked at least for me. It felt like the perfect balance between the 2. If Bioware can give us a world and areas similar to that of HZD then they could be on a winner. I think they got pretty close with MEA so I don' t think it's beyond them. Bioware jus tneed for me with DA is just do what Guerrila did with HZD did is make a map or similar sized maps to that to tell their stories in.
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sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 13,111 Likes: 21,194
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Go Team!
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December 2016
sjsharp2010
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 6, 2021 14:52:43 GMT
I dont think they are going to go back to tight corridors of ME2 or small cave areas of DA:O/DA2. DAI was bit hampered by old consoles (as were the previous games) memory amount. Balance can be found with the hub areas and open worlds and for me I think they were quite close already with DAI and MEA. Yeah I think DAI' swas jus ta tad tooopen I think MEA just about got it right as they were smaller and tighter maps in general. I think people were just used to the corridor shooter natuer of the trilogy which wehile fun doesn't really leav emuch room for exploration which was th edirection they were trying to go down with MEA. After all we aer a pathfinder/explorer in MEA no ta military soldier like Shep was suposed to be. Shep's job was t odefend humanity from potential threats not exploer so i twas fine to hav eth ecorridor style natuer levels the trilog yhad that's no tgoing to work well in a game about exploration. To exploer means you have t ogo out and find things meet nwe people and establish contact this is what Ryder was trained to do and we got to experience that in MEA an dthat wa sone of my favourite parts about that game.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 6, 2021 16:01:17 GMT
Go back to the root of RPG: non-linear narratives. Is that really the root of RPG? My PnP games were always pretty linear.
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therevanchist25
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Mar 15, 2017 23:07:06 GMT
March 2017
therevanchist25
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jan 6, 2021 17:32:49 GMT
Fairly sure the report gave it about 6/7. Either way. 5 years is more than enough time if your not bumbling buffoons. Still ended up being an 18 month game because they were hell bent on making an even worse game, No Man's SKy. Apparently not, considering cyberpunk. Ah, but CD were being bumbling buffoons. They let scope get out of hand and kept moving the goal post.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 6, 2021 18:05:03 GMT
It's not like CP 1977 is a failure, as opposed to a disappointment. It's already earned out, and I'm sure it'll eventually patch up to be a pretty decent game on current gen hardware.
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Little Bengel
Partying like it's 1999
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February 2017
geminifreak
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Little Bengel on Jan 6, 2021 18:42:10 GMT
I dont think they are going to go back to tight corridors of ME2 or small cave areas of DA:O/DA2. DAI was bit hampered by old consoles (as were the previous games) memory amount. Balance can be found with the hub areas and open worlds and for me I think they were quite close already with DAI and MEA. I vastly prefer a midway point of more open levels, with only a few "open world" areas, if any.
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NotN7
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Apr 15, 2017 17:34:16 GMT
April 2017
notn7
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by NotN7 on Jan 6, 2021 18:47:54 GMT
I agree to a point but with the revolving door at BioWare is there anyone left there that knows what BioWare should stick too? what was then (In my mind) is well... not today just saying look at the last two games MEA, Anthem. If all the people that "know what BioWare should stick to" are gone, then why should BioWare stick to it anymore? LOL! true clueless = IPO's (just kidding)
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,323 Likes: 50,731
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jan 6, 2021 21:04:04 GMT
Go back to the root of RPG: non-linear narratives. Is that really the root of RPG? My PnP games were always pretty linear. Eh, whatever floats your boat, but the game I'm running I took apart the adventure to be LESS linear.
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,919 Likes: 7,496
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0
Dec 12, 2024 20:49:01 GMT
7,496
Gileadan
Clearance Level Ultra
2,919
August 2016
gileadan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 6, 2021 22:07:07 GMT
Honestly, whatever BioWare picks, big open world or smaller areas / hubs specific to certain parts of the plot: both approaches need quite some iteration on their part. Their open worlds look pretty but feel empty, and if their hubs get any more static they'll give me vibes of Madame Tussaud's.
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Dec 11, 2024 18:40:24 GMT
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biggydx
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Apr 17, 2017 16:08:05 GMT
April 2017
biggydx
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by biggydx on Jan 7, 2021 18:11:11 GMT
Honestly, whatever BioWare picks, big open world or smaller areas / hubs specific to certain parts of the plot: both approaches need quite some iteration on their part. Their open worlds look pretty but feel empty, and if their hubs get any more static they'll give me vibes of Madame Tussaud's. You know, with what's been going on with CP2077, and critiques of the games NPCs/World lacking depth and immersion, if BioWare goes the Hub-World route how much emphasis should they place on the generic NPCs? Should they have their own schedules and AI? Should they have curated scripts for NPCs so that they can give the illusion of simulated AI? How much depth do you [not you specifically] want out of a less open world experience?
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 7, 2021 18:48:29 GMT
Is that really the root of RPG? My PnP games were always pretty linear. Eh, whatever floats your boat, but the game I'm running I took apart the adventure to be LESS linear. The details might be of interest, since we're discussing general design principles. Unless your methods wouldn't be adaptable to the CRPG format.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,323 Likes: 50,731
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jan 7, 2021 19:58:23 GMT
Eh, whatever floats your boat, but the game I'm running I took apart the adventure to be LESS linear. The details might be of interest, since we're discussing general design principles. Unless your methods wouldn't be adaptable to the CRPG format. Well, the adventure that I am running basically assumes the players take one of two paths towards the McGuffin. Rather than planting a particular crossroads for them to take, I dropped hints that particular NPCs might know something about the McGuffin. Each NPC has their own agenda, though, and will require different hoops to jump through to meet, and each have their own "fetch quest" to earn their, well, not "trust" but worthiness of gaining the information. The players are free to pursue whichever path they like, or even start down each path and change their minds partway through. This required disassembling the original paths and restructuring them, which makes things a lot more messy. But fortunately I'm not the first to come up with this idea, so there were DM groups and guides on doing stuff like this I could consult with.
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Glorious Star Lord
822
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16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 7, 2021 20:11:57 GMT
Honestly, whatever BioWare picks, big open world or smaller areas / hubs specific to certain parts of the plot: both approaches need quite some iteration on their part. Their open worlds look pretty but feel empty, and if their hubs get any more static they'll give me vibes of Madame Tussaud's. You know, with what's been going on with CP2077, and critiques of the games NPCs/World lacking depth and immersion, if BioWare goes the Hub-World route how much emphasis should they place on the generic NPCs? Should they have their own schedules and AI? Should they have curated scripts for NPCs so that they can give the illusion of simulated AI? How much depth do you [not you specifically] want out of a less open world experience? Well whatever they do, it’d be nice if NPC’s in hub worlds weren’t static mannequins with idle animation. I feel like at the very least, there should be people doing things on a kind of loop, at least to such a degree that it looks like they have tasks or doing personal things, like a maintenance worker going back and forth, checking a panel, then checking a datapad, etc., and perhaps ambient dialogue that updates as the story progresses. Even Fallout 4 managed to have the NPC’s actually do these basic things, and eventually stop what they’re doing and go to sleep. I guess what I’m really looking for is the “lived-in” feel of the environment. Even if it’s not quite a hustle and bustle, it can feel at least a little alive. I think a bigger concern of mine for BioWare NPC’s is how they handle non-cinematic dialogue. I’ve always argued that the problem wasn’t the lack of the shot-reverse-shot we’ve been so used to in older BioWare games, but rather the lack of any meaningful animation or interactivity with the environment as these characters spoke. Like, they’ll just stand there with their arms crossed the entire time, or do the same generic gestures we’ve seen as far back as ME1. No one will move around, sit down, or have any body language reflective of what they’re saying, like if a character was angry. These little things go a long way to making sequences more engaging. Of course, there’s the general quality of the actual dialogue that takes place to account for, but that’s another story.
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Post by river82 on Jan 8, 2021 0:03:30 GMT
Go back to the root of RPG: non-linear narratives. Is that really the root of RPG? My PnP games were always pretty linear. Player driven adventure. If players choices don't drive the adventure and the GM reacts to those choices to adapt the experience, you're not playing a PnP RPG. All the "GM" would be doing is telling a tale, which makes them a storyteller and not a gamemaster. At which point the GM may be better off going off on their own and writing a novel or something
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 8, 2021 15:58:24 GMT
Is that really the root of RPG? My PnP games were always pretty linear. Player driven adventure. If players choices don't drive the adventure and the GM reacts to those choices to adapt the experience, you're not playing a PnP RPG. All the "GM" would be doing is telling a tale, which makes them a storyteller and not a gamemaster. At which point the GM may be better off going off on their own and writing a novel or something Driven how? Driven where? In my games (both sides of the screen) there was almost always something going on in the world. Players could respond in various ways, obviously, but the thing was still a thing. (Depending on the game system, ignoring it might not even be an option; your alignment, GURPS Disadvantages, Hero System Psych Limitations, etc., can pre-commit your characters to certain actions.)
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,323 Likes: 50,731
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jan 8, 2021 16:47:00 GMT
Player driven adventure. If players choices don't drive the adventure and the GM reacts to those choices to adapt the experience, you're not playing a PnP RPG. All the "GM" would be doing is telling a tale, which makes them a storyteller and not a gamemaster. At which point the GM may be better off going off on their own and writing a novel or something Driven how? Driven where? In my games (both sides of the screen) there was almost always something going on in the world. Players could respond in various ways, obviously, but the thing was still a thing. (Depending on the game system, ignoring it might not even be an option; your alignment, GURPS Disadvantages, Hero System Psych Limitations, etc., can pre-commit your characters to certain actions.) A gaming friend of mine had a philosophy when he was behind the screen: "It's not MY story, it's OUR story" Everyone at the table has a part of the story to tell. With dice to toss in a randomizing factor. And it's the job of EVERYONE to keep it compelling enough to keep coming back to.
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luketrevelyan
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,793 Likes: 6,261
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August 2016
luketrevelyan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by luketrevelyan on Jan 8, 2021 17:03:55 GMT
Bioware's best games followed the "Star Map" format. After the initial arc, you go through several different arcs in the story, which can be taken in any order, and may have some variations based on what order you do them in. Followed by an endgame arc. I agree that worked pretty well, although I remember thinking at some point their games were starting to feel a bit formulaic due to that. One thing DAI did that hurt it was having a huge open area (the Hinterlands) too early in the story and people got distracted, forgetting what was even going on. KOTOR and DAO took more time before they opened up, and importantly the different planets/areas were directly tied to the main story. It wasn't a perfect system because the order of planets/areas often had "best" ways to do it. Like in DAO doing Circle Tower before Redcliffe and Orzammar having higher difficulty. In KOTOR, Korriban made sense to do last. Still, I did play these in a variety of orders that helped with replayability and the world feeling more open.
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Post by river82 on Jan 9, 2021 2:13:53 GMT
Using words. Where the players decide. In my games (both sides of the screen) there was almost always something going on in the world. Players could respond in various ways, obviously, but the thing was still a thing. (Depending on the game system, ignoring it might not even be an option; your alignment, GURPS Disadvantages, Hero System Psych Limitations, etc., can pre-commit your characters to certain actions.) A thing? Marvelous. I'm so very happy to know there was a thing, and at the end it was still a thing. Your thing is truly treasured.
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Post by river82 on Jan 9, 2021 2:15:14 GMT
Driven how? Driven where? In my games (both sides of the screen) there was almost always something going on in the world. Players could respond in various ways, obviously, but the thing was still a thing. (Depending on the game system, ignoring it might not even be an option; your alignment, GURPS Disadvantages, Hero System Psych Limitations, etc., can pre-commit your characters to certain actions.) A gaming friend of mine had a philosophy when he was behind the screen: "It's not MY story, it's OUR story" Everyone at the table has a part of the story to tell. With dice to toss in a randomizing factor. And it's the job of EVERYONE to keep it compelling enough to keep coming back to. 100% this Your friend sounds like a wonderful GM
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,323 Likes: 50,731
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jan 9, 2021 3:46:33 GMT
A gaming friend of mine had a philosophy when he was behind the screen: "It's not MY story, it's OUR story" Everyone at the table has a part of the story to tell. With dice to toss in a randomizing factor. And it's the job of EVERYONE to keep it compelling enough to keep coming back to. 100% this Your friend sounds like a wonderful GM Yeah, he contacted me recently to invite me to a new online game he's starting. Assuming my work schedule permits it, I'm taking him up on the offer.
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pessimistpanda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 9, 2021 5:51:35 GMT
Why even have a GM at all if not to give the game a sense of narrative, direction and purpose? If the GM should be entirely at the whim of the players and allow them to override or ignore the narrative they've crafted, they can accomplish that well enough by just staying home and not writing anything.
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Post by river82 on Jan 9, 2021 5:56:25 GMT
Why even have a GM at all if not to give the game a sense of narrative, direction and purpose? If the GM should be entirely at the whim of the players and allow them to override or ignore the narrative they've crafted, they can accomplish that well enough by just staying home and not writing anything. The GM sets up the background, the players drive the experience. If all the GM is doing is telling their own tale it is not a PnP RPG, he is telling a story. Choices are made by players, the GM reacts and expands based on those choices. More choices are made, the GM reacts and unfolds the story based on those choices. But it's those choices that drive the expansion of that narrative, which is why it is driven by the players. Most GMs will be guilty of illusionism at some point, where all choices lead to the same outcome. Poor GMs are very guilty of illusionism and may get accused of... well, cheating. But it is telling that even though the results of the choices don't matter that the choice still needed to be presented. It relates to the importance of player choice to RPGs, as in it's a central pillar and if you can't react to the choices of players you have to fake it because it is THAT important. 3 things are important to GMs - Player freedom, which refers to the RPG aspect of the game. World detail, which refers to the background of the story. And ease of preparation which refers to the performance of the GM. Too much illusionism is one way a GM cheats in the game to lessen the amount they have to prepare. But it robs players of control and therefore is regarded as unprincipled. Too much illusionism and not enough player control over the experience just makes you a poor GM.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 9, 2021 6:21:12 GMT
Why even have a GM at all if not to give the game a sense of narrative, direction and purpose? If the GM should be entirely at the whim of the players and allow them to override or ignore the narrative they've crafted, they can accomplish that well enough by just staying home and not writing anything. The GM sets up the background, the players drive the experience. If all the GM is doing is telling their own tale it is not a PnP RPG, he is telling a story. Choices are made by players, the GM reacts and expands based on those choices. More choices are made, the GM reacts and unfolds the story based on those choices. But it's those choices that drive the expansion of that narrative, which is why it is driven by the players. What's "background" in this context? What's the "experience"? I could use this ridiculously broad definition you've put forth it to claim that official pre-made DnD campaigns are "just stories", and not real RPGs. What's the point in setting up a background if the players can choose to ignore it? Why should I spend extensive time crafting locales and NPCs for a bustling port city when there's every chance the players will demand to fuck off to the mountains instead, when I haven't written anything for the mountains? If there's no plot, then how does the GM know what "background" to make in the first place? Exactly how much work is the GM meant to do to accomodate player freedom? At which point do you consider the possibility that players might be being unreasonable? Assuming you even do find a doormat GM who'll just put up with players running roughshod over a campaign they supposedly wanted to participate in, how the fuck is any of this relevant to video games? BioWare should somehow be able to anticipate and accomodate the infinite choices that their millions of players might want to make? Is that what you're saying?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 9, 2021 6:24:29 GMT
Yeah, your expansion doesn't clear anything up. Sounds like players expect GMs to do a lot of work, but not have it respected, or to have any actual fun themselves.
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