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Post by adonniel on Feb 21, 2021 22:00:54 GMT
If she got to keep her hat on in cutscenes she might have been upgraded to 'Archdemon shit' tier, but no higher than that. I hate her for the writers giving her so much special treatment, and for obviously using the danger of mages to elevate herself at their expense while actually destabilizing the situation. If I were to name a snake in Skyhold's garden then it'd be her, and not Solas. She deserves a special tier in both the personal relationship and in power rankings. I found it ironic that in spite of how much attention she's getting, and how polished and educated she's presented to be, she's literally the worst mage in your Inq party. I've been observing mage behavior whenever I'm solely guiding my Inky in a fight, while letting AI do most of the other character control. The AI is making the worst decisions to let her win a battle (it's much smarter in relationship to Solas and Dorian). Any normal mage, in a situation when a fully armed warrior jumps their bones, tends to cast a prevention spell and get out of the range. But not madam the special knight-enchanter La Viv. She summons a blade out of the thin air and tries to outstab a tanky warrior who is beating her over the head with a huge axe. Retreat? Are you kding? I'm wearing high heels! Unless I babysit her in a fight to prevent bad decisions or put a HUGE amount of pesky micromanagement into tactics, she is next to useless.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Feb 21, 2021 22:22:50 GMT
She deserves a special tier in both the personal relationship and in power rankings. I found it ironic that in spite of how much attention she's getting, and how polished and educated she's presented to be, she's literally the worst mage in your Inq party. I've been observing mage behavior whenever I'm solely guiding my Inky in a fight, while letting AI do most of the other character control. The AI is making the worst decisions to let her win a battle (it's much smarter in relationship to Solas and Dorian). Any normal mage, in a situation when a fully armed warrior jumps their bones, tends to cast a prevention spell and get out of the range. But not madam the special knight-enchanter La Viv. She summons a blade out of the thin air and tries to outstab a tanky warrior who is beating her over the head with a huge axe. Retreat? Are you kding? I'm wearing high heels! Unless I babysit her in a fight to prevent bad decisions or put a HUGE amount of pesky micromanagement into tactics, she is next to useless. *wants to argue Vivienne once helped her take down a dragon, then remembers both Solas and Dorian were also there and Quizzy was also a mage* ...know what, nevermind during that part I just spammed barrier everywhere along with energy barrage...it was fun, but Viv was pretty much useless (we were fighting an ice dragon and I had her specced as an ice mage)
arguably during that same playthrough I think Dorian was my best party mage (aside from my own character) he helped me take down the titan during Descent while Cass and Varric were taking dirt naps
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 21, 2021 22:58:13 GMT
She deserves a special tier in both the personal relationship and in power rankings. I found it ironic that in spite of how much attention she's getting, and how polished and educated she's presented to be, she's literally the worst mage in your Inq party. I've been observing mage behavior whenever I'm solely guiding my Inky in a fight, while letting AI do most of the other character control. The AI is making the worst decisions to let her win a battle (it's much smarter in relationship to Solas and Dorian). Any normal mage, in a situation when a fully armed warrior jumps their bones, tends to cast a prevention spell and get out of the range. But not madam the special knight-enchanter La Viv. She summons a blade out of the thin air and tries to outstab a tanky warrior who is beating her over the head with a huge axe. Retreat? Are you kding? I'm wearing high heels! Unless I babysit her in a fight to prevent bad decisions or put a HUGE amount of pesky micromanagement into tactics, she is next to useless. Add to that that Solas' expertise is much more plot-relevant, and Dorian is much more likable and admirable and has a way cooler adventure with you to start the relationship off with, both of whom are romanceable while she isn't, and she's up against some pretty steep competition to fill out the mage slot in the party for any given mission. Not to mention that it's really common to play mage characters ourselves in Inquisition. I think I took her out for some charity excursions just to stretch her legs a little in my last playthrough. Beyond that though, I've never voluntarily added her to the party. I mean, I tiered them according from the characters I like to the characters I dislike. Seriously though, Carver and Velanna over DAII Varric? DA:A and DAII Anders on the same grade? What do you like about Carver, Cole and Vivienne in particular? Not to tear it down or anything, just curious about your tastes. arguably during that same playthrough I think Dorian was my best party mage (aside from my own character) he helped me take down the titan during Descent while Cass and Varric were taking dirt naps Huh. I didn't really think about which companions are actually most useful in combat. Solas is usually my rock throughout most of Inquisition, healing and keeping the rest of us alive. I'll never forget the moments I realized how useful his Dispel Magic thingy was for Rifts and for the Crestwood dragon's lightning DOTs. Definitely the most underrated spell in the game.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 21, 2021 23:12:01 GMT
I do find it amusing that I just look for where Cassandra is in all these lists and then move on. About Vivi...yeah I do agree with the criticism from a playability standpoint. She really did not do too much for me the more I think about it. Character wise I do still find her to be intriguing in that she obviously is someone I find personally detestable...her being interested in her own advancement and political position and her general 'cultured' attitude bordering on arrogance are all things that rubs me the wrong way. Her position on the mage Templar issue also tends to make her my antethesis...but I do find her to still be really well written, consistent, and while she can border on arrogance she is also pretty frank about stuff which I appreciate. So like her more then Blackwall.
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Post by adonniel on Feb 21, 2021 23:19:13 GMT
*wants to argue Vivienne once helped her take down a dragon, then remembers both Solas and Dorian were also there and Quizzy was also a mage* ...know what, nevermind during that part I just spammed barrier everywhere along with energy barrage...it was fun, but Viv was pretty much useless (we were fighting an ice dragon and I had her specced as an ice mage)
arguably during that same playthrough I think Dorian was my best party mage (aside from my own character) he helped me take down the titan during Descent while Cass and Varric were taking dirt naps An ALL mage party taking on a dragon? It must have been quite the challenge you've heroically needed to surpass! You deserve a medal for that fight. Dragon fighting and Viv's knight-enchanter skill is one reason I hadn't dumped her into the lowest level tier. The enchanter blade she can summon will inflict a high amount of damage against a dragon. It's a much better weapon to use than a staff. However, strutting around in paper armour near a stomping dragon won't make you live long and Viv will be too dense to do it anyway. You'll probably get one good stab out of it by manually guiding her to do it and then she'll keel over. In theory, due to this skill, she has a slight edge over the other mages against a dragon. However, I don't bring mages to dragon fights. Overall, Viv's base stats don't seem to be worse than other mages, but the AI on her behalf just makes the worst decisions. It's like her brain gets removed with her hat. If it weren't for base stats and enchanter blade being useful in special circumstances, I'd have ranked her even worse. All dragons I've encountered were ridiculously immune to any form of magic and mage weaponry was doing next to no damage. I always use Cass to tank and then bring Varric and Sera (the best Inq dragon slayer imho). I enjoy playing mage class the best, so, I have to bring Inky, otherwise, I'd kick myself out too and bring Blackwall to serve as a second tank in case Cass decides to take a napsy. Dorian is a ridiculously handsome genius. He deserves all the credit in the world. I've seen Dorian attacked by an archer that was positioned on a hill above Dorian. a) Dorian ressed a pile of bones that were closest to the archer b ) those bones attacked the archer and distracted him from Dorian c) Dorian blasted that archer silly with his pointy stick while the bones were being used as a distraction I didn't make him do it. He figured it out on his own. The way Dorian behaves, very closely imitates my own battle decisions, thus, I ranked him in the top tier. Not only is he smoking hot, but he smokes his enemies. Knowing Viv, she probably would have summoned her enchanter blade and ran uphill while swallowing arrows only to flop dead at that archer's feet.
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LadyofNemesis
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Feb 21, 2021 23:48:17 GMT
*wants to argue Vivienne once helped her take down a dragon, then remembers both Solas and Dorian were also there and Quizzy was also a mage* ...know what, nevermind during that part I just spammed barrier everywhere along with energy barrage...it was fun, but Viv was pretty much useless (we were fighting an ice dragon and I had her specced as an ice mage)
arguably during that same playthrough I think Dorian was my best party mage (aside from my own character) he helped me take down the titan during Descent while Cass and Varric were taking dirt naps An ALL mage party taking on a dragon? It must have been quite the challenge you've heroically needed to surpass! You deserve a medal for that fight. it was that last dragon in Emprise du Lion, the one down in that pit I thought to myself...last dragon fight needs to be epic, so I grab all my mages...and while I tend to play on Casual it was still a rather tough fight
though the Titan from Descent was the hardest fight in the game for me, that thing nearly wiped my party...and I was only able to revive Dorian so he and my Quizzy kept each other alive during that fight, made me appreciate him even more
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Post by adonniel on Feb 21, 2021 23:49:44 GMT
Add to that that Solas' expertise is much more plot-relevant, and Dorian is much more likable and admirable and has a way cooler adventure with you to start the relationship off with, both of whom are romanceable while she isn't, and she's up against some pretty steep competition to fill out the mage slot in the party for any given mission. Not to mention that it's really common to play mage characters ourselves in Inquisition. I think I took her out for some charity excursions just to stretch her legs a little in my last playthrough. Beyond that though, I've never voluntarily added her to the party. I've been thinking about that too and my reaction is very much the same. Due to her base stats being no worse, it is possible to tweak/gear her into behaving in a decent manner in combat, providing you're willing to invest twenty times greater amount of time and effort than on your other characters. The thing is, her cold attitude doesn't really inspire me to make such investment when Solas and Dorian are much more relevant and friendlier to use. After all, this game is about spending most of your time blasting Cory silly and exploring huge maps, not managing Madam La Fer's personal statistics screen, though, she probably thinks she deserves all that attention. I'll never forget the moments I realized how useful his Dispel Magic thingy was for Rifts and for the Crestwood dragon's lightning DOTs. Definitely the most underrated spell in the game. I guess it is underrated by me too in terms of dragons, although, I use them on rifts plenty. I'll have to consider it a bit more. I love mages and use them just about everywhere, but Inquisition Dragon slaying is the only place where I bench them. Sera is just TOO good with her insane DPS. What can I say, a dragon that won't use me as a snack is a quickly dead one.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 22, 2021 0:11:39 GMT
I guess it is underrated by me too in terms of dragons, although, I use them on rifts plenty. I'll have to consider it a bit more. I love mages and use them just about everywhere, but Inquisition Dragon slaying is the only place where I bench them. Sera is just TOO good with her insane DPS. What can I say, a dragon that won't use me as a snack is a quickly dead one. Yup, it's amazing. Rift portals, dragon elemental damage rings, enemy barriers, rune traps, it wipes them all out in a moment. I almost never have more than a single mage in the party because I hate too much magic in my fantasy - the recent trailers for DA4 have convinced me that I'm probably not going to bother playing it - so I have to be pretty picky with my spells. Dispel and Barrier were the only ones I absolutely can't go without after I realized how useful Dispel was. And using it at exactly the right moment to disrupt enemy effects is like getting your shield up just in time to catch a blow in Skyrim. Pure satisfaction. I've always liked the idea of an archer peppering the dragon with arrows like Leliana in the Ashes of Andraste DA:O trailer, but never managed to justify having her or Varric on the team over one of the big guys or another mage casting Barrier. Also I detest her.
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Post by adonniel on Feb 22, 2021 0:41:06 GMT
I've always liked the idea of an archer peppering the dragon with arrows like Leliana in the Ashes of Andraste DA:O trailer, but never managed to justify having her or Varric on the team over one of the big guys or another mage casting Barrier. Also I detest her. You've lost me a bit here by mashing all three games into one pile. You need to break it down and elaborate each part. Leli isn't a party member in DAI, she can't be chosen at all. You dislike Leli? Why so? In DAO or in DAI or both? For power rating, I found her to be one of the weakest in DAO party, but she is the best at lockpicking. That skill, plus the bard buff was the sole reason to drag her around. If Zev was better at chests, I'd never use her. In terms of personality, I do like her in DAO. It was harder to place her in Inq because she isn't a party member, so, she went into 'special skills' slot. Her position on the mage Templar issue also tends to make her my antethesis...but I do find her to still be really well written, consistent, and while she can border on arrogance she is also pretty frank about stuff which I appreciate. I also appreciate how she's written. She does have certain qualities I can respect her for, but respect is not the same as liking someone. I can't say there is any Dragon Age party member whom I'd fully despise. Some like Sebastien sure annoy me though. That's the only humourless party member and preachy to boot. I have no idea how he survives in Kirkwall without humour as a coping mechanism.
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Post by Noxluxe on Feb 22, 2021 1:00:23 GMT
I've always liked the idea of an archer peppering the dragon with arrows like Leliana in the Ashes of Andraste DA:O trailer, but never managed to justify having her or Varric on the team over one of the big guys or another mage casting Barrier. Also I detest her. You've lost me a bit here by mashing all three games into one pile. You need to break it down and elaborate each part. Leli isn't a party member in DAI, she can't be chosen at all. You dislike Leli? Why so? In DAO or in DAI or both? For power rating, I found her to be one of the weakest in DAO party, but she is the best at lockpicking. That skill, plus the bard buff was the sole reason to drag her around. If Zev was better at chests, I'd never use her. In terms of personality, I do like her in DAO. It was harder to place her in Inq because she isn't a party member, so, she went into 'special skills' slot. Oh, uh, no, you were talking about how awesome Sera is as ranged DPS, and I'm saying that I could never justify using either her or Varric for that in Inquisition when I could have either a mage or a beefcake instead, and I also dislike her on top of that. Only mentioned Leliana because she feathers a dragon in that one trailer, and it looks awesome. And yeah. I feel like every new Dragon Age Origins playthrough is just another failed attempt to make Leliana an effective party member. It's easier with Zevran if your PC can play on autopilot so you can just control him for maximum backstabs, but archery got seriously shafted in Origins. I'm currently playing the game as a Dalish Warrior archer/dual dagger hybrid, and being able to dump Cunning and go all-in on Dex plus the first level of Survival makes the bow pretty good in the early game for softening enemies up while waiting for them to approach the party. Once the others are in melee though, hanging back and keeping up the fire means that someone else is taking your beating, and the archery damage just isn't anywhere near enough to outweigh that, so I shift to daggers and tag Momentum and start kicking ass. But with Leliana's wide spread of attributes and shitty starting talent allocation she just doesn't measure up the same way. At least the Bard abilities are pretty awesome, even though the visual effects are annoying. And I do rather like her as a character.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 22, 2021 1:07:56 GMT
I've always liked the idea of an archer peppering the dragon with arrows like Leliana in the Ashes of Andraste DA:O trailer, but never managed to justify having her or Varric on the team over one of the big guys or another mage casting Barrier. Also I detest her. You've lost me a bit here by mashing all three games into one pile. You need to break it down and elaborate each part. Leli isn't a party member in DAI, she can't be chosen at all. You dislike Leli? Why so? In DAO or in DAI or both? For power rating, I found her to be one of the weakest in DAO party, but she is the best at lockpicking. That skill, plus the bard buff was the sole reason to drag her around. If Zev was better at chests, I'd never use her. In terms of personality, I do like her in DAO. It was harder to place her in Inq because she isn't a party member, so, she went into 'special skills' slot. Her position on the mage Templar issue also tends to make her my antethesis...but I do find her to still be really well written, consistent, and while she can border on arrogance she is also pretty frank about stuff which I appreciate. I also appreciate how she's written. She does have certain qualities I can respect her for, but respect is not the same as liking someone. I can't say there is any Dragon Age party member whom I'd fully despise. Some like Sebastien sure annoy me though. That's the only humourless party member and preachy to boot. I have no idea how he survives in Kirkwall without humour as a coping mechanism. For me too I do tend to segregate my opinion on how much I like a character (as a person) versus how well written or voice acted they are. They all sort of belong in seperate segregated spheres for me because how good or bad or likable someone is has little to do with the competency as a writer. On the other end of this spectrum, for instance, is Morrigan. I rather like her personally as a person...I just don't think she's that well written (owing to her friendship/rivalry issues)
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Post by adonniel on Feb 22, 2021 1:31:40 GMT
Oh, uh, no, you were talking about how awesome Sera is as ranged DPS, and I'm saying that I could never justify using either her or Varric for that in Inquisition when I could have either a mage or a beefcake instead, and I also dislike her on top of that. Only mentioned Leliana because she feathers a dragon in that one trailer, and it looks awesome. Whelp, if we had a ranking who looks great in trailers, I guess Leli would get a good spot. They did spread out her attributes too much. You know what happens when you try to sit on two chairs at once, your bum ends up on the floor. At least they fixed archery in the Awakening. Bowman Nathaniel is all I could wish for in a party member. I had two rogues, one was dex based and the other was half cunning and half dex. I found high dex build in the later game to be significantly more powerful than with the high cunning investment. The dodging was Matrix level. Early and middle game for dex rogues is harsh, it only pays off in the late game. In dao it's my least fav class with the fully broken trap tree and lousy stealth. On the other end of this spectrum, for instance, is Morrigan. I rather like her personally as a person...I just don't think she's that well written (owing to her friendship/rivalry issues) Oh? That's not a frequent opinion. I find her to be well written. What makes you say her character design could use better investment?
It's easier with Zevran if your PC can play on autopilot so you can just control him for maximum backstabs, but archery got seriously shafted in Origins.
I enjoy micro managing my party in DAO. But I don't like doing so in Inquisition. DA2 has certain poor combat design problems too to make it a lot less enjoyable. As per Zevran, I enjoy his romance and life stories, but I seem to have a difficult combat relationship in general with all dual weild rogues. Wouldn't use them at all in DAO or elsewhere if I didn't have to.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 22, 2021 1:47:52 GMT
Oh, uh, no, you were talking about how awesome Sera is as ranged DPS, and I'm saying that I could never justify using either her or Varric for that in Inquisition when I could have either a mage or a beefcake instead, and I also dislike her on top of that. Only mentioned Leliana because she feathers a dragon in that one trailer, and it looks awesome. Whelp, if we had a ranking who looks great in trailers, I guess Leli would get a good spot. They did spread out her attributes too much. You know what happens when you try to sit on two chairs at once, your bum ends up on the floor. At least they fixed archery in the Awakening. Bowman Nathaniel is all I could wish for in a party member. I had two rogues, one was dex based and the other was half cunning and half dex. I found high dex build in the later game to be significantly more powerful than with the high cunning investment. The dodging was Matrix level. Early and middle game for dex rogues is harsh, it only pays off in the late game. In dao it's my least fav class with the fully broken trap tree and lousy stealth. On the other end of this spectrum, for instance, is Morrigan. I rather like her personally as a person...I just don't think she's that well written (owing to her friendship/rivalry issues) Oh? That's not a frequent opinion. I find her to be well written. What makes you say her character design could use better investment?
It's easier with Zevran if your PC can play on autopilot so you can just control him for maximum backstabs, but archery got seriously shafted in Origins.
I enjoy micro managing my party in DAO. But I don't like doing so in Inquisition. DA2 has certain poor combat design problems too to make it a lot less enjoyable. As per Zevran, I enjoy his romance and life stories, but I seem to have a difficult combat relationship in general with all dual weild rogues. Wouldn't use them at all in DAO or elsewhere if I didn't have to.
Its just more the friendship and rivalry system with her I find to be really inconsistent. It makes it really hard to get to know her and get into some of her really good character stuff when so much is dependant on you getting that friendship stuff up which always is so hard since its hard to find out what will set her off.
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Post by bladefist on Feb 22, 2021 2:22:54 GMT
The ULTIMATE DA Character Tier List
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Post by leadintea on Feb 22, 2021 5:19:52 GMT
I mean, I tiered them according from the characters I like to the characters I dislike. Seriously though, Carver and Velanna over DAII Varric? DA:A and DAII Anders on the same grade? What do you like about Carver, Cole and Vivienne in particular? Not to tear it down or anything, just curious about your tastes. I like Carver the most because I resonate a lot with his character. He perceives himself to be the underdog amongst the group and wants to carve (pun not intended) out a space for himself, and I just really like that trait. He's also pretty impudent and brash, but also has his moments of showing brotherly affection to Hawke, which I just adore. Cole is, simply put, adorable. I like his naivety, I enjoy his antics around Skyhold, and I especially like how he's able to unsettle so many other normally unshakeable characters like Vivienne and Dorian with his banter. In Vivienne's case, I mainly like her because I agree with her politics. She's also surprisingly kind to the Inquisitor in some ways - whether she's being calculating or not is irrelevant to me, I just appreciate that trait. On a more superficial level, I also like the style of her outfits, I love her voice actor, and I enjoy the fact that she's the first black party member in the series (though I really do wish they made her less divisive). As for the other characters you mentioned: I like Velanna because she's a breath of fresh air compared to most other characters you get. She's surly, messy, and chaotic, and I love that for her. DAII Varric is a toady. The way he ingratiates himself unto Hawke so quickly always annoyed me, and also gives me Garrus from ME2 and ME3 vibes, who I also dislike a lot. DA:A and DAII Anders are both similarly annoying characters to me just in different ways. I would've put DAII Anders in F tier but, as much as I hate to admit it, his romance was my most favorite out of all the ones I've played (even though all the mlm romances are pretty weak/banal for me personally) so I bumped him higher.
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Post by adonniel on Feb 22, 2021 20:54:29 GMT
Its just more the friendship and rivalry system with her I find to be really inconsistent. It makes it really hard to get to know her and get into some of her really good character stuff when so much is dependant on you getting that friendship stuff up which always is so hard since its hard to find out what will set her off. I guess it's sort of the same thing that bothers me in the Awakening with Oghren. He greets Warden Commander as his best friend and shows so much enthusiasm, but when you start talking to him, he completely shuts down and has extremely limited response options that do not offend him. You'd think your good old pal wouldn't get so angry about some of the more humorous responses and banter, but nope, he's harder to win friendship to activate his personal quest line than Nathaniel who literally starts the episode with considering stabity stab on your Warden.
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Post by Catilina on Feb 24, 2021 2:49:14 GMT
DA2 Anders blew up a chantry and the byproducts of that explosion caused thousands of injuries to innocents. He also gaslights you in act 3. Far not thousands... That was the war, but that was started by the Seekers and the Templars for their wounded pride. And gaslight? Oh yes, Hawke gaslights Anders in rivalry for years... He never gaslights Hawke. He lies. Once. Also:
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Post by fylimar on Feb 24, 2021 14:19:26 GMT
tiermaker.com/create/dragon-age-companion-and-advisor-rankings-391262Sorry, only a link, hope, it is working. If not bulketpoints are: Varric (every version), Isabela, Zevran, Wynne, Dorian, Aveline, Cassandra, Bull and Sera are my favorites. Merrill, Morrigan, Sebastian, Solas, Loghain can go home. The rest is in between.
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Post by 10k on Feb 25, 2021 2:23:30 GMT
Here's mine
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Post by Warrick on Feb 25, 2021 17:09:54 GMT
I don't know what the letter mean so I added descriptions.
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Post by Gwydden on Feb 25, 2021 18:06:15 GMT
Too many discreet categories afflicts me with analysis paralysis, so I kept it simple.
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Post by mattjamho on Feb 26, 2021 11:47:55 GMT
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Post by Fredward on Feb 26, 2021 12:26:32 GMT
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