catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 246 Likes: 414
inherit
11818
0
414
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
246
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by catcher on Feb 9, 2021 21:00:03 GMT
First, a little introduction. Modest Proposal is intended to bounce ideas to improve/change certain parts of the CRPG game experience in reference to DA4. I call it 'modest' because the ideas ideally should target less radical changes to the base of DA:I that would be reasonable for Bioware to execute as opposed to say, rewriting the dialogue system or doing the game in 2D graphics or using the Inquisitor as protagonist. There's nothing necessarily wrong with big ideas or talking about them but there's already plenty of that around. The focus here is on smaller changes focused on certain areas that could have big payoffs. I'll kick one off and hopefully you will see what I mean.
Using the plural wasn't a mistake. We're pretty certain that the Big Bad will be Solas/Fen'Harel in DA4 (unless Bioware pulls some massive schwerve) but I believe fine crafting of the lesser villains has as much to do with the success of the game as an RPG as several other role playing elements. So forthwith, a cluster of possible ideas.
1: Let us see the Big Bad being bad. One of the problems with Corypheus in DA:I is that he's really rarely present in the larger game. He hits Haven and does some snarling but the best you get of him and why he is so bad is locked away in some quests. One of the classic Bioware villains is Jon Irenicus who tries to tempt you in selected dreams. With Solas' dream ability already established, this wouldn't be a bad idea of how to keep our goal more firmly in mind (excuse the pun).
2: Have a solid small cadre of smaller villains and actually let them develop. One of DA:I's problems with the 'lesser' villains was that they just weren't given much development time. This was compounded by the large number of minor villains that were sprinkled around willy-nilly like all the Venatori mages and the Freeman leaders. Just too many people to develop a few as real, deep characters that we would love to hate. The sad thing is, there were some that could have been good recurring villains (like Gereon Alexius and Samson) who's best moments and lines are given locked in Skyhold's cells. Waste! Waste! Waste! Give us a good lieutenant and a couple of lower villains we get to know almost as well as our teammates.
3: Relate at least one villain directly to our character's past. this is a piece out of the DA:O playbook. Somehow, someone from your past comes back to bite you and there's nothing sweeter or more fitting than to meet them again. Sometimes its sweet revenge (Arl Howe, Bhelen). Sometimes its sweet sorrow (Tamlen, Leske). Having one of the minor villians with a direct link to the Protagonist just ups the ante every time you meet.
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Dec 12, 2024 21:04:37 GMT
37,534
colfoley
19,297
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Feb 9, 2021 23:11:28 GMT
First, a little introduction. Modest Proposal is intended to bounce ideas to improve/change certain parts of the CRPG game experience in reference to DA4. I call it 'modest' because the ideas ideally should target less radical changes to the base of DA:I that would be reasonable for Bioware to execute as opposed to say, rewriting the dialogue system or doing the game in 2D graphics or using the Inquisitor as protagonist. There's nothing necessarily wrong with big ideas or talking about them but there's already plenty of that around. The focus here is on smaller changes focused on certain areas that could have big payoffs. I'll kick one off and hopefully you will see what I mean. Using the plural wasn't a mistake. We're pretty certain that the Big Bad will be Solas/Fen'Harel in DA4 (unless Bioware pulls some massive schwerve) but I believe fine crafting of the lesser villains has as much to do with the success of the game as an RPG as several other role playing elements. So forthwith, a cluster of possible ideas. 1: Let us see the Big Bad being bad. One of the problems with Corypheus in DA:I is that he's really rarely present in the larger game. He hits Haven and does some snarling but the best you get of him and why he is so bad is locked away in some quests. One of the classic Bioware villains is Jon Irenicus who tries to tempt you in selected dreams. With Solas' dream ability already established, this wouldn't be a bad idea of how to keep our goal more firmly in mind (excuse the pun). 2: Have a solid small cadre of smaller villains and actually let them develop. One of DA:I's problems with the 'lesser' villains was that they just weren't given much development time. This was compounded by the large number of minor villains that were sprinkled around willy-nilly like all the Venatori mages and the Freeman leaders. Just too many people to develop a few as real, deep characters that we would love to hate. The sad thing is, there were some that could have been good recurring villains (like Gereon Alexius and Samson) who's best moments and lines are given locked in Skyhold's cells. Waste! Waste! Waste! Give us a good lieutenant and a couple of lower villains we get to know almost as well as our teammates. 3: Relate at least one villain directly to our character's past. this is a piece out of the DA:O playbook. Somehow, someone from your past comes back to bite you and there's nothing sweeter or more fitting than to meet them again. Sometimes its sweet revenge (Arl Howe, Bhelen). Sometimes its sweet sorrow (Tamlen, Leske). Having one of the minor villians with a direct link to the Protagonist just ups the ante every time you meet. I do tend to like all your ideas but you do run into the risk of having a contradiction between one and two. Have over developped minor villains in relation to the main antagonist and the main antagonist does not get as develloped. And then vice versa. I think generally, especially with as much potential as Solas has as a villain, I would rather the development go into that area more then the other one...and you are right having him appear in dreams could be a great way to do it. Though keep in mind a big bad does not exactly have to have a huge prescence in the game especially if it works better for the themes or the characters to have Solas stay in the background...then he should. But in general I think there are two general ways to at least imporve the situation. 1. To make sure you have a specific hiearchy of villainy and who gets the most time. There is obviously the big bad of the piece, Solas, but there could be a lot of other big villains which could form the bulk of the narrative. People like other Elven Gods (Andruil and Ghilainain seem to be big contenders), the Qunari (the leaders of the Ben-hasrath and Antaam,) Tevinter (Archon Radonis) could all serve as huge antagonistic forces in the story below Solas and even those below them, like their own lieutenants and representatives...equivalent to Ser Cauthrian in Origins. 2. Perhaps the big thing here would also to have cutscenes involved with them, while Cauthrian wasn't really in the game THAT much we got a sense of her motivations and backstory because we got to talk to her...far more effective then with the Freemen Leaders who only were told to us via notes...for less personal. And while it might leave things unbalanced maybe have some of these badguys stick around for longer then one quest or one arc. Like have them escape to fight another day or if you made a choice to spare them at the beginning of the game they could pop up later.
|
|
Black Magic Ritual
N3
Samus Aran, your heart is fine <3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 405 Likes: 365
inherit
11794
0
365
Black Magic Ritual
Samus Aran, your heart is fine <3
405
Jan 22, 2021 18:47:26 GMT
January 2021
blackmagicritual
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
|
Post by Black Magic Ritual on Feb 10, 2021 1:32:46 GMT
Corypheus was lame, every time he would try to strike the PC down the Inquisition would immediately just bounce back stronger than before (i.e. Haven became Skyhold) He also, by default, inflicted that cringe singing scene afterwards on us.
|
|
catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 246 Likes: 414
inherit
11818
0
414
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
246
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by catcher on Feb 10, 2021 2:40:35 GMT
]I do tend to like all your ideas but you do run into the risk of having a contradiction between one and two. Have over developped minor villains in relation to the main antagonist and the main antagonist does not get as develloped. And then vice versa. I think generally, especially with as much potential as Solas has as a villain, I would rather the development go into that area more then the other one...and you are right having him appear in dreams could be a great way to do it. Though keep in mind a big bad does not exactly have to have a huge prescence in the game especially if it works better for the themes or the characters to have Solas stay in the background...then he should. But in general I think there are two general ways to at least imporve the situation. 1. To make sure you have a specific hiearchy of villainy and who gets the most time. There is obviously the big bad of the piece, Solas, but there could be a lot of other big villains which could form the bulk of the narrative. People like other Elven Gods (Andruil and Ghilainain seem to be big contenders), the Qunari (the leaders of the Ben-hasrath and Antaam,) Tevinter (Archon Radonis) could all serve as huge antagonistic forces in the story below Solas and even those below them, like their own lieutenants and representatives...equivalent to Ser Cauthrian in Origins. 2. Perhaps the big thing here would also to have cutscenes involved with them, while Cauthrian wasn't really in the game THAT much we got a sense of her motivations and backstory because we got to talk to her...far more effective then with the Freemen Leaders who only were told to us via notes...for less personal. And while it might leave things unbalanced maybe have some of these badguys stick around for longer then one quest or one arc. Like have them escape to fight another day or if you made a choice to spare them at the beginning of the game they could pop up later. Thanks for picking that up. I kind of hurried that post a bit so I didn't get to give an example but you filled in the gaps pretty well. Using an alternate reality DA:I as a template, let's say they actually let Corypheus sit back as a heavy and, depending on the Mage-Templar choice, your main opponent for most of the rest of the game is either Samson or Calpernia. We'll give Samson the areas to the East: small roles in Crestwood and Storm Coast, larger ones in Emerald Graves, Exalted Plains, and Emprise du Lion. For underlings, we give him Carroll (a real wasted opportunity there. It could have been a great story going from comic relief to true villain), Gordian (even though he's a Venatori), Imshael, and Lucius (the real one). We'll give Calpernia the Western Approaches, Forbidden Oasis, and Hissing Wastes. Her assistants could be Gerion, Marcinus, and Lucanus. As you indicated, in several places where a more generic leader like a Bandit Chief, an Overseer, or one of the other minor villains is replaced by one of the underlings or even Samson or Calpernia. Use escapes to let them fight another day (and frustrate the player just a little  ) Organize the area quests better according to the style of the villain so we get to know and hate them appropriately. Viola! On Solas, there's a couple of ways they could go with him, I'm thinking. One is that they could make him a relatively normal main villain with a typical power structure and knowable plan. That's a bit too boring to me but it is tried and true. Another tack, and one I would prefer to see, is that various groups in Northern Thedas are being maneuvered or duped into doing what Solas needs to complete his plan. Then the Player has more mystery under her/his choices and the whole plot is opened to more ambiguity. More risky than that is that the Player is manipulated by Solas into almost completing his plan and/or eliminating groups that could trouble him (sort of like he did in Trespasser). There could be several other options, but I do hope with as much is riding on the line, they focus on making the opposition as special as our companions.
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Dec 12, 2024 21:04:37 GMT
37,534
colfoley
19,297
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Feb 10, 2021 3:16:09 GMT
Corypheus was lame, every time he would try to strike the PC down the Inquisition would immediately just bounce back stronger than before (i.e. Haven became Skyhold) He also, by default, inflicted that cringe singing scene afterwards on us. The every time was just the one time you mentioned. Which yes was an issue but lets not overstate the case either. ]I do tend to like all your ideas but you do run into the risk of having a contradiction between one and two. Have over developped minor villains in relation to the main antagonist and the main antagonist does not get as develloped. And then vice versa. I think generally, especially with as much potential as Solas has as a villain, I would rather the development go into that area more then the other one...and you are right having him appear in dreams could be a great way to do it. Though keep in mind a big bad does not exactly have to have a huge prescence in the game especially if it works better for the themes or the characters to have Solas stay in the background...then he should. But in general I think there are two general ways to at least imporve the situation. 1. To make sure you have a specific hiearchy of villainy and who gets the most time. There is obviously the big bad of the piece, Solas, but there could be a lot of other big villains which could form the bulk of the narrative. People like other Elven Gods (Andruil and Ghilainain seem to be big contenders), the Qunari (the leaders of the Ben-hasrath and Antaam,) Tevinter (Archon Radonis) could all serve as huge antagonistic forces in the story below Solas and even those below them, like their own lieutenants and representatives...equivalent to Ser Cauthrian in Origins. 2. Perhaps the big thing here would also to have cutscenes involved with them, while Cauthrian wasn't really in the game THAT much we got a sense of her motivations and backstory because we got to talk to her...far more effective then with the Freemen Leaders who only were told to us via notes...for less personal. And while it might leave things unbalanced maybe have some of these badguys stick around for longer then one quest or one arc. Like have them escape to fight another day or if you made a choice to spare them at the beginning of the game they could pop up later. Thanks for picking that up. I kind of hurried that post a bit so I didn't get to give an example but you filled in the gaps pretty well. Using an alternate reality DA:I as a template, let's say they actually let Corypheus sit back as a heavy and, depending on the Mage-Templar choice, your main opponent for most of the rest of the game is either Samson or Calpernia. We'll give Samson the areas to the East: small roles in Crestwood and Storm Coast, larger ones in Emerald Graves, Exalted Plains, and Emprise du Lion. For underlings, we give him Carroll (a real wasted opportunity there. It could have been a great story going from comic relief to true villain), Gordian (even though he's a Venatori), Imshael, and Lucius (the real one). We'll give Calpernia the Western Approaches, Forbidden Oasis, and Hissing Wastes. Her assistants could be Gerion, Marcinus, and Lucanus. As you indicated, in several places where a more generic leader like a Bandit Chief, an Overseer, or one of the other minor villains is replaced by one of the underlings or even Samson or Calpernia. Use escapes to let them fight another day (and frustrate the player just a little ) Organize the area quests better according to the style of the villain so we get to know and hate them appropriately. Viola! On Solas, there's a couple of ways they could go with him, I'm thinking. One is that they could make him a relatively normal main villain with a typical power structure and knowable plan. That's a bit too boring to me but it is tried and true. Another tack, and one I would prefer to see, is that various groups in Northern Thedas are being maneuvered or duped into doing what Solas needs to complete his plan. Then the Player has more mystery under her/his choices and the whole plot is opened to more ambiguity. More risky than that is that the Player is manipulated by Solas into almost completing his plan and/or eliminating groups that could trouble him (sort of like he did in Trespasser). There could be several other options, but I do hope with as much is riding on the line, they focus on making the opposition as special as our companions. I do like your idea...actually I really do like your idea if the player has to wonder in the back of their head if what they are doing could just be helping Solas win, after all he does rely on chaos to support his goals so maybe in actively fighting against the smaller villains, we then have issues trying to stop him.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11664
0
Dec 12, 2024 21:38:02 GMT
Deleted
0
Dec 12, 2024 21:38:02 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2021 3:35:18 GMT
3: Relate at least one villain directly to our character's past. this is a piece out of the DA:O playbook. Somehow, someone from your past comes back to bite you and there's nothing sweeter or more fitting than to meet them again. Sometimes its sweet revenge (Arl Howe, Bhelen). Sometimes its sweet sorrow (Tamlen, Leske). Having one of the minor villians with a direct link to the Protagonist just ups the ante every time you meet. Personally, I very much like this idea. I really do. A well defined foe who actually tells us something about our hero. I can just see it, the moment they meet again and that stirs up old memories. This element of surprise is something I would enjoy very much. In any case, this guy would demonstrate so well that a villain is never malicious or destructive "just because". By showing the personal attributes and external circumstances that contribute to his/her behaviour you would make this villain a complex product of his/her own backstory. A believable, three-dimensional character, so much more than the bad guy who simply have an obsession with gaining power. It makes fun to just think about it! Well, however... this game you are working on - where can I buy it? |
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
31,578
Hanako Ikezawa
22,991
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 10, 2021 3:45:00 GMT
3: Relate at least one villain directly to our character's past. this is a piece out of the DA:O playbook. Somehow, someone from your past comes back to bite you and there's nothing sweeter or more fitting than to meet them again. Sometimes its sweet revenge (Arl Howe, Bhelen). Sometimes its sweet sorrow (Tamlen, Leske). Having one of the minor villians with a direct link to the Protagonist just ups the ante every time you meet. Personally, I very much like this idea. I really do. A well defined foe who actually tells us something about our heroe. I can just see it, the moment they meet again and that stirs up old memories. This element of surprise is something I would enjoy very much. That's one reason I don't like it. I want my character's past and views to be up to me, where whenever they do that it takes away from that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11664
0
Dec 12, 2024 21:38:02 GMT
Deleted
0
Dec 12, 2024 21:38:02 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2021 11:35:42 GMT
Personally, I very much like this idea. I really do. A well defined foe who actually tells us something about our heroe. I can just see it, the moment they meet again and that stirs up old memories. This element of surprise is something I would enjoy very much. That's one reason I don't like it. I want my character's past and views to be up to me, where whenever they do that it takes away from that. I understand your problem. This can only work if yor PC is someone you know - either Hawke or the Inquisitor. I hadn't considered that. 
|
|
Felya87
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 984 Likes: 2,432
inherit
1004
0
Dec 12, 2024 19:57:31 GMT
2,432
Felya87
984
Aug 15, 2016 22:36:22 GMT
August 2016
felya87
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Felya87 on Feb 10, 2021 12:57:39 GMT
The "past" tho doesn't have to be either a personal past or an "origin" past. We can have an actual prologue were we meet the foe or other characters. Say, if DAI didn't start right post explosion, but we could go around the temple before, we could meet people and create our own motivations just by meeting the various characters before the bOoM.
Like at Ostagar in DAO. Most of my Wardens have no reasons to even know who Loghain or Cailan are. Yet with just the little time we met them we can make an idea of how our character can react/feel about the Ostagar fiasco, and how personal we can feel about Loghain, without needing to tap into our character origin.
A prologue mission/situation before being trown into action would be very appreciated.
|
|
inherit
1130
0
Dec 11, 2024 19:48:04 GMT
530
wickedcool
772
Aug 22, 2016 13:08:32 GMT
August 2016
wickedcool
|
Post by wickedcool on Feb 10, 2021 15:14:37 GMT
I agree villains need to be fleshed out. The throne scenes where we execute or recruit villains would have been much more impactful if we were mor invested
Someone we cared about should have died (other than the silly timed save the villagers at haven)
The cut content where we see varric upset over 1 of our choices would have made an impact
The very beginning of the game-save the scouts or charge. Would have slightly more impact if we learned the scouts fate or if later the scouts showed up in the village
Imagine if at haven during the battle sera died or Blackwell etc at corys hand
Da2 did this with a sibling, hawkes mom etc.
Dao the blight itself can kill sten if you don’t free him plus 1/2 your companions an be killed by you. Awakening has a major choice to save companions or a town
|
|
catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 246 Likes: 414
inherit
11818
0
414
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
246
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by catcher on Feb 10, 2021 15:36:54 GMT
]I do like your idea...actually I really do like your idea if the player has to wonder in the back of their head if what they are doing could just be helping Solas win, after all he does rely on chaos to support his goals so maybe in actively fighting against the smaller villains, we then have issues trying to stop him. There's a reason I assigned that one a greater risk, though. As a designer/writer, you walk a fine line between too much stepping on player agency to get them to do the wrong thing for the right reasons and too much information that blows the plan too early. Just causing chaos though is a much better idea to avoid that than something specific. The talk about all those 'Elven artefacts' Solas encouraged us to activate in DA:I game me the thought. Thanks for the thoughts.
|
|
catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 246 Likes: 414
inherit
11818
0
414
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
246
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by catcher on Feb 10, 2021 16:10:32 GMT
Personally, I very much like this idea. I really do. A well defined foe who actually tells us something about our hero. I can just see it, the moment they meet again and that stirs up old memories. This element of surprise is something I would enjoy very much. In any case, this guy would demonstrate so well that a villain is never malicious or destructive "just because". By showing the personal attributes and external circumstances that contribute to his/her behaviour you would make this villain a complex product of his/her own backstory. A believable, three-dimensional character, so much more than the bad guy who simply have an obsession with gaining power. It makes fun to just think about it! Well, however... this game you are working on - where can I buy it? It's on the cloud. That is, it's on the cloud in my head where the CEO of EA drives up with a dump truck of money and asks me to please design their next game for them and they will drive another truck of cash to Rich Burlew to write it. Then I wake up.  Seriously, like I said this is just something I find entertaining: shooting around ideas on games and gaming with other gamers and see what falls out. Maybe someone from Bioware sees it and says "You know, we could do that"  . Even better, someone from Bioware sees it and says, "They have no idea how much better we are doing that  . Better even than that is that someone else starting a company or working for a smaller company sees it and says, "We can do that better than Bioware"  . Nothing against the folks who work there, but the more people we have making quality CRPGs, the more we get and the more players we reach and that's a better dream to me. Best of all is, I get to chat games and gaming with a bunch of different gamners and see things from different perspectives. I think the ability to write more complex villains is there for Bioware. I was looking up some details on Gereon on the DA wiki when I stumbled on the Skyhold Prisoner Dialogues. Gereon has a line talking with Ser Ruth that goes: "My crime was an attempt to restore power to a country sheltering the rest of you. Will the Wardens fight the Qunari when Tevinter crumbles? Will Orlais send Chevaliers against the battlefleets? You southerners have no idea." I had never heard it before and it makes him (and the rest of the Venatori for that matter) make so much more sense, particularly in view of Tresspasser. I have no idea why the line was buried, but it sure would have been better as a theme running through DA:I. Thanks for the thoughts.
|
|
catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 246 Likes: 414
inherit
11818
0
414
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
246
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by catcher on Feb 10, 2021 16:24:32 GMT
Personally, I very much like this idea. I really do. A well defined foe who actually tells us something about our heroe. I can just see it, the moment they meet again and that stirs up old memories. This element of surprise is something I would enjoy very much. That's one reason I don't like it. I want my character's past and views to be up to me, where whenever they do that it takes away from that. I'm afraid I don't see how having a personal villain necessarily has that effect. Would you give more details? Maybe use an example or two from DA:O or some other game if you prefer? I am just a bit puzzled. Thanks none the less.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
31,578
Hanako Ikezawa
22,991
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 10, 2021 16:44:59 GMT
That's one reason I don't like it. I want my character's past and views to be up to me, where whenever they do that it takes away from that. I'm afraid I don't see how having a personal villain necessarily has that effect. Would you give more details? Maybe use an example or two from DA:O or some other game if you prefer? I am just a bit puzzled. Thanks none the less. Using DAO is tricky since my least favorite part of Origins was the origins since they limited role playing. But as an example, Howe for Human Noble. If you face him as such, the options were very much limited to just “he betrayed my family”. Well what if you’re against him for other reasons, or didn’t want a family in your backstory. It limits you into just that mindset. Whereas DAI or ME for example yes had backgrounds but they weren’t prevalent, so if/when they did come up like the conversation with Josephine you had a lot more options. |
|
catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 246 Likes: 414
inherit
11818
0
414
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
246
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by catcher on Feb 10, 2021 18:53:47 GMT
Using DAO is tricky since my least favorite part of Origins was the origins since they limited role playing. But as an example, Howe for Human Noble. If you face him as such, the options were very much limited to just “he betrayed my family”. Well what if you’re against him for other reasons, or didn’t want a family in your backstory. It limits you into just that mindset. Whereas DAI or ME for example yes had backgrounds but they weren’t prevalent, so if/when they did come up like the conversation with Josephine you had a lot more options. Thanks. I was roughly on the right trail in my head but I wanted to be sure. Assuming and asses and all that  . What about what Felya87 mentioned? An enemy you make in the opening action sequence when Bioware are teaching us controls and views and such? Another alternative is to select a villain based on a trait you have picked at the beginning. To use the Ultima IV traits, if you select Honesty for your character, the game would select a dishonest villain to be part of your introduction. A simple kind of illusion powered by a limited selection of broad traits at the beginning. Would something like either of these work better for you?
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
31,578
Hanako Ikezawa
22,991
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 10, 2021 19:06:28 GMT
Using DAO is tricky since my least favorite part of Origins was the origins since they limited role playing. But as an example, Howe for Human Noble. If you face him as such, the options were very much limited to just “he betrayed my family”. Well what if you’re against him for other reasons, or didn’t want a family in your backstory. It limits you into just that mindset. Whereas DAI or ME for example yes had backgrounds but they weren’t prevalent, so if/when they did come up like the conversation with Josephine you had a lot more options. Thanks. I was roughly on the right trail in my head but I wanted to be sure. Assuming and asses and all that  . What about what Felya87 mentioned? An enemy you make in the opening action sequence when Bioware are teaching us controls and views and such? Another alternative is to select a villain based on a trait you have picked at the beginning. To use the Ultima IV traits, if you select Honesty for your character, the game would select a dishonest villain to be part of your introduction. A simple kind of illusion powered by a limited selection of broad traits at the beginning. Would something like either of these work better for you? A villain you make in the opening action works better since by that point you're in the plot so the only limitations are the ones that already exist. Loghain for example. You can have any number of reasons to want to stop him, and the game tends to let you. Don't think the traits thing would work since that would be quantity over quality. Plus having traits assigned to the protagonist like that limits roleplaying. For example you used honesty. Most of the times my characters are honest, ut there are times where a harmless lie is better than a painful truth so I wouldn't, where with the trait already assigned you can't do that but only tell the truth.
|
|
catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 246 Likes: 414
inherit
11818
0
414
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
246
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by catcher on Feb 11, 2021 16:00:43 GMT
A villain you make in the opening action works better since by that point you're in the plot so the only limitations are the ones that already exist. Loghain for example. You can have any number of reasons to want to stop him, and the game tends to let you. Don't think the traits thing would work since that would be quantity over quality. Plus having traits assigned to the protagonist like that limits roleplaying. For example you used honesty. Most of the times my characters are honest, ut there are times where a harmless lie is better than a painful truth so I wouldn't, where with the trait already assigned you can't do that but only tell the truth. I think I haven't defined the idea of selecting traits like in Ultima IV well. At the beginning of the game, you are given a simple kind of personality test recreated with some background here. For those who don't wish to check out the link, there are 8 'virtues' (Honesty, Valor, Compassion, Justice, Sacrifice, Honor, Spirituality, and Humility) and you are asked simple, moral questions that pit one virtue against another. The questions continue in a single elimination format until one supreme virtue is left. In Ultima IV, this determined which of eight classes your character started as, where in the world the character started, some stat boosts, and several other things. I'm not saying copy that perfectly or even closely. The idea, though, that your character is defined strongly by a few characteristics can be used to select one of several pre-generated minor villains to kick off your introduction to DA4 (or DA5 or whatever). To give an example, I took the test at that link which actually has and scores all the questions (which is a fuller interpretation). I came up highest on Sacrifice and second highest on Compassion, so my characters villain (in this imaginary system) would self-serving, sadist. Somebody like Crassius Servis in DA:I I would think. Just thought I would take the time to flesh out the idea more. Thanks for pushing. Even if you don't like the idea I still like having to polish it up a bit and U4 is an old game that deserves to be remembered.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11664
0
Dec 12, 2024 21:38:02 GMT
Deleted
0
Dec 12, 2024 21:38:02 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 17:28:58 GMT
Personally, I very much like this idea. I really do. A well defined foe who actually tells us something about our hero. I can just see it, the moment they meet again and that stirs up old memories. This element of surprise is something I would enjoy very much. In any case, this guy would demonstrate so well that a villain is never malicious or destructive "just because". By showing the personal attributes and external circumstances that contribute to his/her behaviour you would make this villain a complex product of his/her own backstory. A believable, three-dimensional character, so much more than the bad guy who simply have an obsession with gaining power. It makes fun to just think about it! Well, however... this game you are working on - where can I buy it? It's on the cloud. That is, it's on the cloud in my head where the CEO of EA drives up with a dump truck of money and asks me to please design their next game for them and they will drive another truck of cash to Rich Burlew to write it. Then I wake up. Seriously, like I said this is just something I find entertaining: shooting around ideas on games and gaming with other gamers and see what falls out. Maybe someone from Bioware sees it and says "You know, we could do that" . Even better, someone from Bioware sees it and says, "They have no idea how much better we are doing that . Better even than that is that someone else starting a company or working for a smaller company sees it and says, "We can do that better than Bioware" . Nothing against the folks who work there, but the more people we have making quality CRPGs, the more we get and the more players we reach and that's a better dream to me. Best of all is, I get to chat games and gaming with a bunch of different gamners and see things from different perspectives. I think the ability to write more complex villains is there for Bioware. I was looking up some details on Gereon on the DA wiki when I stumbled on the Skyhold Prisoner Dialogues. Gereon has a line talking with Ser Ruth that goes: "My crime was an attempt to restore power to a country sheltering the rest of you. Will the Wardens fight the Qunari when Tevinter crumbles? Will Orlais send Chevaliers against the battlefleets? You southerners have no idea." I had never heard it before and it makes him (and the rest of the Venatori for that matter) make so much more sense, particularly in view of Tresspasser. I have no idea why the line was buried, but it sure would have been better as a theme running through DA:I. Thanks for the thoughts. My first thought was: "I hope that you get everything you ever want, and all your dreams come true." But then my second thought was: "I don't like to see a smart guy wasting his talent on a company like EA."  So I hope that either you'll win a contract with CDPR for the next Witcher-Project (I've been looking forward to) or you try your wings on something new and get the chance to work with the creative minds of ZA/UM.  These guys - who are actual popular estonian writers - created with "Disco Elysium" my favourite RPG of the last few years. So if you are interested in wonderfully ambitious writing and eyebrow-raising game mechanics, contact them.  However, if BioWare is on the top of your priority list then you probably know the VGS Interview "How to Write a BioWare Game with Lead Writer Patrick Weekes". It answered so many questions for me, especially regarding the difference between writing a novel/short story and writing for games.
With regard to the question of how to write a good villain: He explains at the end of the interview that despite all the epicness of the DA-setting (demons, kings, old gods etc.) it always comes down to people. "If you make a person, and you make him or her understandable [...] they have to have something they want, they have to have something they fear and they have to have a goal. And that is how you get interesting characters to make heroic sacrifices or to make terrible tragic decisions that make them look like the villain."
Make them look like a villain - in my opinion an important aspect and probably what we've already described as an interesting, three-dimensional, deep and real character. So, with a view to DA4, they hopefully make their words come true. (...become true? Whatever.   )
|
|
Beerfish
N7
Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
Posts: 15,192 Likes: 36,403
inherit
Little Pumpkin
314
0
36,403
Beerfish
15,192
August 2016
beerfish
https://bsn.boards.net/user/314/personal
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Beerfish
Beerfish77
|
Post by Beerfish on Feb 11, 2021 21:02:55 GMT
I actually like the way BioWare did this in previous games such as BG2. At points in the game we get these jon irenicus cut scenes sort of fleshing out his story when he can be right there going rawr!
|
|
catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 246 Likes: 414
inherit
11818
0
414
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
246
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by catcher on Feb 11, 2021 22:33:24 GMT
My first thought was: "I hope that you get everything you ever want, and all your dreams come true." But then my second thought was: "I don't like to see a smart guy wasting his talent on a company like EA." So I hope that either you'll win a contract with CDPR for the next Witcher-Project (I've been looking forward to) or you try your wings on something new and get the chance to work with the creative minds of ZA/UM. These guys - who are actual popular estonian writers - created with "Disco Elysium" my favourite RPG of the last few years. So if you are interested in wonderfully ambitious writing and eyebrow-raising game mechanics, contact them. However, if BioWare is on the top of your priority list then you probably know the VGS Interview "How to Write a BioWare Game with Lead Writer Patrick Weekes". It answered so many questions for me, especially regarding the difference between writing a novel/short story and writing for games. With regard to the question of how to write a good villain: He explains at the end of the interview that despite all the epicness of the DA-setting (demons, kings, old gods etc.) it always comes down to people. "If you make a person, and you make him or her understandable [...] they have to have something they want, they have to have something they fear and they have to have a goal. And that is how you get interesting characters to make heroic sacrifices or to make terrible tragic decisions that make them look like the villain." Make them look like a villain - in my opinion an important aspect and probably what we've already described as an interesting, three-dimensional, deep and real character. So, with a view to DA4, they hopefully make their words come true. (...become true? Whatever. ) Thank you for your kind words, but I am no game designer nor even close to one. Its one thing to spout a couple of general ideas on a message board. It's several light years away to build it as a set of interlocking designs with impacts investigated up and down the line and modeled in the toolset. I have, and will always have nothing but respect for the designers, writers, builders, and testers of the games I play because I am certain they work hard to create what they believe will be a fun, meaningful experience for millions of players. It doesn't mean I can't goof around a bit on the edges though, which I always enjoy doing. I don't get paid for it but I also don't have last minute toolset changes, crunch, and the boss's boss's boss telling me I can sell 10 million units if I just let the players ride dragons. Back to our villains, motivations and some kind of philosophy that clashes with the Player is the key. You only get to explore those if there are fewer big villains (and I wouldn't mind fewer mooks and more different interactions with the environment beside but that's a story for a different day). An example of a clashing philosophy (but not from a Bioware game) is the early speech by Loki in Avengers when he's grandstanding in Berlin. That's a challenge straight to the Avengers heart. DA4 villains need not only to challenge our combat prowess but also our hearts as heroes. I'm hopeful that with more time and a stable toolset (please let it be a stable toolset), the writers can live up to the promise they have always shown before.
|
|
) Organize the area quests better according to the style of the villain so we get to know and hate them appropriately. Viola!
. Even better, someone from Bioware sees it and says, "They have no idea how much better we are doing that 
. Better even than that is that someone else starting a company or working for a smaller company sees it and says, "We can do that better than Bioware" 
. Nothing against the folks who work there, but the more people we have making quality CRPGs, the more we get and the more players we reach and that's a better dream to me. Best of all is, I get to chat games and gaming with a bunch of different gamners and see things from different perspectives. 
. What about what Felya87 mentioned? An enemy you make in the opening action sequence when Bioware are teaching us controls and views and such? Another alternative is to select a villain based on a trait you have picked at the beginning. To use the Ultima IV traits, if you select Honesty for your character, the game would select a dishonest villain to be part of your introduction. A simple kind of illusion powered by a limited selection of broad traits at the beginning. Would something like either of these work better for you? 
. What about what Felya87 mentioned? An enemy you make in the opening action sequence when Bioware are teaching us controls and views and such? Another alternative is to select a villain based on a trait you have picked at the beginning. To use the Ultima IV traits, if you select Honesty for your character, the game would select a dishonest villain to be part of your introduction. A simple kind of illusion powered by a limited selection of broad traits at the beginning. Would something like either of these work better for you? 
These guys - who are actual popular estonian writers - created with "Disco Elysium" my favourite RPG of the last few years. So if you are interested in wonderfully ambitious writing and eyebrow-raising game mechanics, contact them. 
) 